Discovery of Photograph of Joseph Smith? Part II

[smac97]

Last year we discussed a news item about the discovery of what was purported to be a photograph of Joseph Smith: Discovery of Photograph of Joseph Smith?

The Trib today: New forensic research provides fresh evidence this really is a photo of Mormon founder Joseph Smith

Some excerpts:

 

Quote

Curtis Weber assumed it would be easy to prove that a recently discovered daguerreotype was not actually a photograph of Mormonism founder Joseph Smith.

Through years of studying the primary sources relating to Smith’s physical appearance and analyzing previously purported photos, Weber had become convinced that none of those images was authentic.

Given the lack of any firsthand documentation that Smith was ever photographed, Weber doubted such an object even existed.

After extensive forensic comparisons, however, Weber, an independent Latter-day Saint researcher in Utah, now believes that the daguerreotype found in a locket by a Smith descendant, Daniel Larsen, is indeed a photo of the man who proclaimed that he saw God and Jesus in a New York woods as a boy and launched a global religious movement.

 
(Daguerreotype photo by Jim Mathis, via Daniel Larsen) This recently discovered daguerreotype purportedly shows church founder Joseph Smith.

And it may be the only photo of the leader revered by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the Community of Christ (formerly the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints).

The key to Weber’s confidence?

Daguerreotypes are like mirrors — their images are almost always backward — so reversing them revealed “a number of striking, precise correspondences between Smith’s death mask and the daguerreotype,” Weber says, “including asymmetries of Joseph’s face and bone structure evidenced in the mask.”

Another clue Weber discovered is that an unreversed image of the daguerreotype appears to be the prime source for the details of Smith’s face in the famous front-facing oil painting “that once hung in [wife] Emma’s bedroom,” the researcher says. “The evidence strongly indicates that the painting was created after Joseph’s death by an artist who had never seen him in life.”

(Courtesy of Daniel Larsen and Curtis G. Weber) Comparison of the Joseph Smith oil portrait once owned by Emma Smith Bidamon (left) and the unreversed Larsen daguerreotype (right), with the daguerreotype at 50% opacity overlaid on the painting (middle). There are 40 high or precise correspondences between detail of Smith’s face in the painting and the face of the man in the daguerreotype, indicating the artist used the Larsen daguerreotype for these details of the portrait.

The researcher will present his findings Saturday, June 10, at a Mormon History Association gathering in Rochester, NY.

Scholars are still debating, though, whether it’s really Smith.

Some question the daguerreotype’s provenance — its history of ownership — and why it appears so different from the familiar portraits of Smith.

Latter-day Saint historian Ardis Parshall, a Salt Lake Tribune guest columnist, remains skeptical, saying it hasn’t been adequately scrutinized either historically or scientifically.

“The desire for the Larsen daguerreotype to be an image of Joseph Smith has overrun scholarly caution and even reason,” she says. “It may be a picture of Joseph Smith; sufficient evidence has not yet been produced.”

Others, though, see it as a thrilling treasure, a face that could easily be that of the charismatic 19th-century leader.

“It’s a mystery, and we’re uncomfortable with that,” Lachlan Mackay, a historian and Community of Christ apostle, said on The Tribune’s “Mormon Land” podcast. “And even though we all have kind of wired ourselves into seeing Joseph as that oil portrait, at some level most of us know people don’t really look like that.”

A stunning discovery

(Courtesy of Daniel Larsen and Curtis G. Weber) The reversed Larsen daguerreotype image superimposed over photographs of the pedestal and Dibble death masks of Joseph Smith. These two masks, located in the Church History Museum in Salt Lake City, are believed to be the oldest extant death masks of Smith. The face of the man in the daguerreotype aligns precisely to nearly every detail of Smith’s facial anatomy present in the masks.

(Courtesy of Daniel Larsen and Curtis G. Weber) Contour tracings of facial features in the reversed Larsen daguerreotype overlaid on a photograph of the pedestal death mask of Joseph Smith. The shapes and relative positions of multiple features of the man in the daguerreotype correspond quite precisely with details of Smith’s face captured in the death mask.

In July, Larsen and Mackay (another Smith descendant) announced the existence of the daguerreotype that the former had seen in a locket.

The heirloom was passed down to Larsen from his mother, who was a granddaughter of Joseph Smith III, a son of Mormonism’s originator who helped establish what is now the Community of Christ and became its first president.

Upon seeing the tiny image, Larsen “just knew it was Joseph,” the Smith descendant said at the time. “I looked at it for an hour or so with my wife. It was an emotional moment.”

He remains firm in his position.

“I always believed it was him,” Larsen now says. “With this new information, it is now more convincing to other people.”

Indeed, Weber’s research simply adds more certainty to that conviction.

In 2008 and 2009, Weber worked on a forensic study of the remains of Joseph and his fellow martyr, brother Hyrum Smith, which concluded that they were correctly identified when their skulls were last exhumed and reburied in 1928.

In the process, Weber built a library of more than 700 photographs of the oldest known death masks of the two men with each mask positioned in a custom-built rig at documented angles.

Comparing the reversed daguerreotype image to Smith’s death mask photos revealed the correspondences immediately.

“The mouth, nose, and nasolabial folds [creases in the skin from both sides of the nose to the corner of the mouth],” he says, are the “closest matches I’ve ever seen in any purported image of Joseph.”

Several more comparison photos at the link.

Pretty cool stuff.

Thanks,

-Smac

[manol]

VERY INTERESTING!!

Imo this increases the likelihood of the Scannel Daguerreotype being authentic.  I'm not a forensic analyst but ime one thing that can reveal a "close but not quite" similarity is earlobe shape.  To my untrained eye, the (arguably somewhat unusual) earlobes match.

Edit: For some reason my meager link-embedding skills have failed me, so let's try this:

https://www.ldsliving.com/do-photographs-of-the-prophet-joseph-smith-exist/s/82207

Imo a comparison of the two photos would be consistent with a man who was "high mileage" for his years. 

Edited June 8, 2023 by manol

[Teancum]

4 hours ago, smac97 said:

Last year we discussed a news item about the discovery of what was purported to be a photograph of Joseph Smith: Discovery of Photograph of Joseph Smith?

The Trib today: New forensic research provides fresh evidence this really is a photo of Mormon founder Joseph Smith

Some excerpts:

 

Several more comparison photos at the link.

Pretty cool stuff.

Thanks,

-Smac

So what do you think?  Is it Joseph?

[Tacenda]

I think it most likely is and he doesn't look like a saint like the pictures that the artists paint of him. 

[JLHPROF]

9 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I think it most likely is and he doesn't look like a saint like the pictures that the artists paint of him. 

What on earth does that mean?

[Tacenda]

34 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

What on earth does that mean?

Their renditions show an almost angelic face, and he wasn't. 

Edited June 9, 2023 by Tacenda

[Nofear]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Their renditions show an almost angelic face, and he wasn't. 

I personally don't have a lot first-hand experience with angelic experiences so I'm not sure what "almost angelic" constitutes other than preconceived cultural or other bias. /shrug

To me, the largest difference between the painted and the daguerreotype are the eye brows.

[smac97]

14 hours ago, Teancum said:

So what do you think?  Is it Joseph?

Well, the photos in the article seem pretty compelling, particularly the superimposition of the daguerreotype over Joseph's death mask.

I appreciate academic/scientific caution in these matters, but I think run-of-the-mill folks can, at this point, make up their own minds.  I don't think the Latter-day Saints' devotion to and faith in the Restored Gospel is, or should be, contingent on whether or not this is an authentic photo of Joseph Smith.  Having said that, yes, I am persuaded that it photo is of Joseph Smith.

Thanks,

-Smac

[smac97]

12 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I think it most likely is and he doesn't look like a saint like the pictures that the artists paint of him. 

I don't think we typically expect a still image of an honored historical figure to be a warts-and-all depiction.

Look at these images of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.  Or images of Mahatma Gandhi, Mother Teresa, Harvey Milk, and so on.

For that matter, take a look at the average family photo, where everyone is stiff, wearing nice clothes, smiling, etc.

I think devotional images are intended to portray the individual at his or her best.  That is not, I think, a denial of the individual's flaws, weaknesses, mistakes, etc.

Meanwhile, the "painting" that is often used to depict Joseph Smith seems to be pretty spot-on:

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited June 9, 2023 by smac97

[Teancum]

4 hours ago, smac97 said:

Well, the photos in the article seem pretty compelling, particularly the superimposition of the daguerreotype over Joseph's death mask.

I appreciate academic/scientific caution in these matters, but I think run-of-the-mill folks can, at this point, make up their own minds.  I don't think the Latter-day Saints' devotion to and faith in the Restored Gospel is, or should be, contingent on whether or not this is an authentic photo of Joseph Smith.  Having said that, yes, I am persuaded that it photo is of Joseph Smith.

Thanks,

-Smac

Yea I am leaning that way as well at this point. Seems to work. Cool stuff. 

[Teancum]

6 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

What on earth does that mean?

Well you know the artist paintings make him look much more handsome and other wordly.  No big deal. That is what artists do and based on what they have had to go on I have no issue with their approach.

[Teancum]

3 hours ago, smac97 said:

Meanwhile, the "painting" that is often used to depict Joseph Smith seems to be pretty spot-on:

It really does except the painting makes his face a bit more darrow and his mouth a bit nicer.  But it does seem close.

[smac97]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

Well you know the artist paintings make him look much more handsome and other wordly.  No big deal. That is what artists do and based on what they have had to go on I have no issue with their approach.

One reason I like the daguerreotype is that it has more verisimilitude:

Assuming the photo's authenticity, by the time it was taken, I think Joseph had been through a lot, and some of that might be coming through.  The painting is, perhaps, a bit too idealized and ethereal.  That said, it is interesting to look at the eyes of the man in the photo and wonder if those were the eyes that (in my belief system) took in the First Vision, the visitations from Moroni, and the various other theophanies.

We have long had photos of the Three Witnesses, but Joseph seems to have trod a rather unique path.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Calm]

22 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I think it most likely is and he doesn't look like a saint like the pictures that the artists paint of him. 

Funny you said that.  One of the pictures reminds me of an actor who is very good at playing the part of a pompous, self centered jerk.  The other looks like a typical neighbour to me.

What does strike me is how the light is used, as a back lit halo in the second and shining on his face in the first.

[Calm]

10 hours ago, smac97 said:

don't think we typically expect a still image of an honored historical figure to be a warts-and-all depiction.

School pictures are at times deceptively docile/well behaved, lol.

Edited June 10, 2023 by Calm

[Calm]

6 hours ago, Teancum said:

Well you know the artist paintings make him look much more handsome and other wordly.  No big deal. That is what artists do and based on what they have had to go on I have no issue with their approach.

I think he looks much more handsome in the daguerreotype.  The painting is too genteel for my taste.  As are the rest where his facial skin looks like he was never outside without an umbrella and used moisturizer every night or had Botox..

Edited June 10, 2023 by Calm

[Kenngo1969]

52 minutes ago, Calm said:

I think he looks much more handsome in the daguerreotype.  The painting is too genteel for my taste.  As are the rest where his facial skin looks like he was never outside without an umbrella and used moisturizer every night or had Botox..

[blackstrap]

Compare and contrast with a pic of a young   Brigham about 1851

 

Edited June 10, 2023 by blackstrap

[Tacenda]

@smac97 have you seen this, thought you might want to check it out. I've yet to watch it completely, but they are researching if the latest image could be JS. But don't know the ending or conclusion yet. 

 

[teddyaware]

Using a corrected reverse image of the recently discovered daguerreotype of the prophet Joseph Smith as a template, a skilled artist produced this striking image of how the prophet may have appeared as a young man.

[The Nehor]

On 6/9/2023 at 9:58 AM, smac97 said:

I don't think the Latter-day Saints' devotion to and faith in the Restored Gospel is, or should be, contingent on whether or not this is an authentic photo of Joseph Smith. 

If it is a fake I am having my name removed.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

Using a corrected reverse image of the recently discovered daguerreotype of the prophet Joseph Smith as a template, a skilled artist produced this striking image of how the prophet may have appeared as a young man.

This is AI art isn’t it?

[Calm]

12 hours ago, The Nehor said:

This is AI art isn’t it?

Adam Worthington

His alleged website doesn’t exist and his Etsy shop isn’t selling anything

https://www.etsy.com/shop/KnowBrotherJoseph

knowbrotherjoseph.com

Edited February 21, 2024 by Calm

[Calm]

those two images look different though, makes me wonder if someone else fooled around with it combing that with their favorite version

Edited February 21, 2024 by Calm

[Kenngo1969]

On 6/9/2023 at 9:36 PM, blackstrap said:

Compare and contrast with a pic of a young   Brigham about 1851

 

Young Brigham Young?

"Young ... Brigham Young."

"Bond ... James Bond."