Losing faith vs losing belief

[Kenngo1969]

As hard as it is for me to conceive of a consistent moral framework without some sort of deity at its center, if one is an honest, upright, decent, moral, caring individual who believes in loving others; doing good to, and for, them; in treating others as the person wishes to be treated; in loving others as one loves oneself; and in making life as good as he or she can make it for oneself and for the others for whom one is responsible for as long as one can do so before [from that person's perspective] succumbing to the void, more power to that person.

I hardly think I am alone among Latter-day Saints in holding such a view.  That said, to borrow and to alter slightly a line from Shakespeare, "There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your science."

Edited May 13, 2023 by Kenngo1969

[RAD DAD]

16 hours ago, smac97 said:

First, I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "version of truth

I highly doubt that members of other faiths believe that Mormonism is the truth and their religious beliefs are only half truths, you don't believe that do you? So yes, Mr. Smac, your truth when it comes to religious belief, is just that, its yours, no one else's. I'm sorry to tell you, but catholics, Baptist, Muslims and all the other denominations aren't waking up in the morning wishing they could be Mormon so they could be following the true gospel of Christ. They get down on their knees and pray to God just like you do, but they may view God differently and that's their truth. 

Are you telling me that you believe the LDS faith is the only religion God has given the whole truth to? That 99.85% of the rest of the world are living a lie by following no religion or an apostate religion? 

 

[Dario_M]

12 hours ago, Navidad said:

How about Psalm 88 and 89? I love these two Psalms because it shows that we can be upset, angry, and disappointment in God without Him rebuking us. These are two Psalms that rarely get taught in any church! We can also trust in Him, even when we are mad at Him! Wow!

Yes !!! Btw.....i also really love the melody of Psalm 89. Here listen to this.

 

Edited May 13, 2023 by Dario_M

[RAD DAD]

20 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

I don’t believe that things are that black and white for everyone. Not for me, at any rate. 

Would you please explain?

 

The reason I ask, is because I was brought up to believe the LDS gospel is the only true and living gospel on the face of the earth, is that still true? Because if we still believe that our religion is the only true and living religion on earth, that makes it pretty black and white, unless I'm missing something. 

 

The OP asked, is it possible to lose your faith in God, but retain your beliefs in the gospel. So my question is, don't we believe that this earth of ours was made for us? Everything on it, the trees, the oceans, the dirt, the mountains, the clouds, everything we see, smell, taste, hear and feel was made for out benefit by a kind and loving God, do you believe that? Our religion believes in multiple universes with multiple planets that are littered with little mortals going through the same testing we're going through on this planet. Basically, what I'm getting at is, everything we experience, everything we interact with is owned and was made by God. So as far as what the OP asked, how can you lose your faith in God, but still believe in the gospel, I say you can't because the gospel is everything including everything you experience on this earth and the heavens. The very ground that's supporting your weight right now is part of the gospel, isn't it?

 

What's the "gray area" you're describing?

 

 

Edited May 13, 2023 by RAD DAD

[Dario_M]

13 hours ago, Navidad said:

How about Psalm 88 

The melody of Psalm 88 is offcourse also beautiful. But i like the setting les much then from the other Psalm, (psalm 89). The versus are in Dutch but i expect that these versus would contain the exact same message's as the ones in English. 

 

[Dario_M]

I think that from everything i know now about the gospel (Book of Mormon) the comandmands en (little) some of the doctrine's i know for so far i would say that i believe 67% of it. But! I still love the gospel though. The Book of Mormon i totaly adore. ❤

[CV75]

14 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Maybe a simpler way of stating things is this: If you reach a point where there's no identifiable difference in your life, no recognizable hand of God, regardless of how faithful and obedient you are or are not then what remains of faith?

Even though the gospel and the Church are 100% true, and revealed from God himself.  Doesn't the gospel have to have a continuous impact on your life, however small, to enable you to retain your faith?

Yes we could say the continuation of our daily lives with blessings already received qualifies but in general that would happen either way.  However small, don't we need to see the hand of God on an ongoing basis in order to have faith - the evidence/assurance part of our faith in the unseen?

I think seeing the hand of God on an ongoing basis includes remembering His hand on an ongoing basis. If we see the hand of God, it is not unseen. but remembering constitutes belief in the unseen present and future, and faith in the past, present and future when we act upon it. Remembering, as a form of prayer, is an act of faith. Someone can feel completely hollowed out but still remember and keep going through the motions, and this is still a form of faith in my book. If they completely shut down, only the Lord can judge whether this is a matter of faith or something they have no control over.

The gospel's (Christ's and His atonement's) continuous impact on our lives begins in the premortal life and is subtly introduced in this life through the light of Christ.

[CV75]

14 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Yet the scriptures literally promise healing for the faithful with limited exceptions (appointed to death etc).

So if that promise is true (and I believe it is and God cannot lie) then how do we keep faith in God when healings are a relatively low percentage of administrations?

 I firmly believe God cannot lie.  The scriptures provide clear instructions and rules.  How do we keep the faith when faithful belief isn't fulfilled?

I believe these scriptural promises are always in accordance with God's will, with have to do with using these miracles to bless others and build Zion, as alluded to in Jacob 2: 18 - 20 in the form of substance and riches.

[Nevo]

17 hours ago, Navidad said:

How about Psalm 88 and 89? I love these two Psalms because it shows that we can be upset, angry, and disappointment in God without Him rebuking us. These are two Psalms that rarely get taught in any church! We can also trust in Him, even when we are mad at Him! Wow!

This reminds me of a remarkable blog entry I came across a few years ago, written by a young woman who went by the moniker "Nightbirde." Some may remember her as a contestant on America's Got Talent. 

---

I have had cancer three times now, and I have barely passed thirty. There are times when I wonder what I must have done to deserve such a story. I fear sometimes that when I die and meet with God, that He will say I disappointed Him, or offended Him, or failed Him. Maybe He’ll say I just never learned the lesson, or that I wasn’t grateful enough. But one thing I know for sure is this: He can never say that He did not know me. 

I am God’s downstairs neighbor, banging on the ceiling with a broomstick. I show up at His door every day. Sometimes with songs, sometimes with curses. Sometimes apologies, gifts, questions, demands. Sometimes I use my key under the mat to let myself in. Other times, I sulk outside until He opens the door to me Himself. 

I have called Him a cheat and a liar, and I meant it. I have told Him I wanted to die, and I meant it. Tears have become the only prayer I know. Prayers roll over my nostrils and drip down my forearms. They fall to the ground as I reach for Him. These are the prayers I repeat night and day; sunrise, sunset.

Call me bitter if you want to—that’s fair. Count me among the angry, the cynical, the offended, the hardened. But count me also among the friends of God. For I have seen Him in rare form. I have felt His exhale, laid in His shadow, squinted to read the message He wrote for me in the grout: “I’m sad too.” 

If an explanation would help, He would write me one—I know it. But maybe an explanation would only start an argument between us—and I don’t want to argue with God. I want to lay in a hammock with Him and trace the veins in His arms.

I remind myself that I’m praying to the God who let the Israelites stay lost for decades. They begged to arrive in the Promised Land, but instead He let them wander, answering prayers they didn’t pray. For forty years, their shoes didn’t wear out. Fire lit their path each night. Every morning, He sent them mercy-bread from heaven. 

I look hard for the answers to the prayers that I didn’t pray. I look for the mercy-bread that He promised to bake fresh for me each morning. The Israelites called it manna, which means “what is it?” 

That’s the same question I’m asking—again, and again. There’s mercy here somewhere—but what is it? What is it? What is it?

I see mercy in the dusty sunlight that outlines the trees, in my mother’s crooked hands, in the blanket my friend left for me, in the harmony of the wind chimes. It’s not the mercy that I asked for, but it is mercy nonetheless. And I learn a new prayer: thank you. It’s a prayer I don’t mean yet, but will repeat until I do.

Call me cursed, call me lost, call me scorned. But that’s not all. Call me chosen, blessed, sought-after. Call me the one who God whispers his secrets to. I am the one whose belly is filled with loaves of mercy that were hidden for me.

Even on days when I’m not so sick, sometimes I go lay on the mat in the afternoon light to listen for Him. I know it sounds crazy, and I can’t really explain it, but God is in there—even now. I have heard it said that some people can’t see God because they won’t look low enough, and it’s true. 

If you can’t see him, look lower. God is on the bathroom floor.

— Jane Marczewski (aka "Nightbirde")

Edited May 13, 2023 by Nevo

[JLHPROF]

8 hours ago, Nevo said:

This reminds me of a remarkable blog entry I came across a few years ago, written by a young woman who went by the moniker "Nightbirde." Some may remember her as a contestant on America's Got Talent. 

---

I have had cancer three times now, and I have barely passed thirty. There are times when I wonder what I must have done to deserve such a story. I fear sometimes that when I die and meet with God, that He will say I disappointed Him, or offended Him, or failed Him. Maybe He’ll say I just never learned the lesson, or that I wasn’t grateful enough. But one thing I know for sure is this: He can never say that He did not know me. 

I am God’s downstairs neighbor, banging on the ceiling with a broomstick. I show up at His door every day. Sometimes with songs, sometimes with curses. Sometimes apologies, gifts, questions, demands. Sometimes I use my key under the mat to let myself in. Other times, I sulk outside until He opens the door to me Himself. 

I have called Him a cheat and a liar, and I meant it. I have told Him I wanted to die, and I meant it. Tears have become the only prayer I know. Prayers roll over my nostrils and drip down my forearms. They fall to the ground as I reach for Him. These are the prayers I repeat night and day; sunrise, sunset.

Call me bitter if you want to—that’s fair. Count me among the angry, the cynical, the offended, the hardened. But count me also among the friends of God. For I have seen Him in rare form. I have felt His exhale, laid in His shadow, squinted to read the message He wrote for me in the grout: “I’m sad too.” 

If an explanation would help, He would write me one—I know it. But maybe an explanation would only start an argument between us—and I don’t want to argue with God. I want to lay in a hammock with Him and trace the veins in His arms.

I remind myself that I’m praying to the God who let the Israelites stay lost for decades. They begged to arrive in the Promised Land, but instead He let them wander, answering prayers they didn’t pray. For forty years, their shoes didn’t wear out. Fire lit their path each night. Every morning, He sent them mercy-bread from heaven. 

I look hard for the answers to the prayers that I didn’t pray. I look for the mercy-bread that He promised to bake fresh for me each morning. The Israelites called it manna, which means “what is it?” 

That’s the same question I’m asking—again, and again. There’s mercy here somewhere—but what is it? What is it? What is it?

I see mercy in the dusty sunlight that outlines the trees, in my mother’s crooked hands, in the blanket my friend left for me, in the harmony of the wind chimes. It’s not the mercy that I asked for, but it is mercy nonetheless. And I learn a new prayer: thank you. It’s a prayer I don’t mean yet, but will repeat until I do.

Call me cursed, call me lost, call me scorned. But that’s not all. Call me chosen, blessed, sought-after. Call me the one who God whispers his secrets to. I am the one whose belly is filled with loaves of mercy that were hidden for me.

Even on days when I’m not so sick, sometimes I go lay on the mat in the afternoon light to listen for Him. I know it sounds crazy, and I can’t really explain it, but God is in there—even now. I have heard it said that some people can’t see God because they won’t look low enough, and it’s true. 

If you can’t see him, look lower. God is on the bathroom floor.

— Jane Marczewski (aka "Nightbirde")

That is SO beautiful!

I kind of needed to read that.  I went through a period where I tried to ignore God years ago.  Just pretend that there was no Gospel and live without it.  I never could manage it.  It's a fundamental part of who I am.

That inability kind of lead to this thread. I simply can't lose my belief - I KNOW that God is there and the gospel is true.

But my faith in God can sure take a beating..🤕

Edited May 13, 2023 by JLHPROF

[Jaydes]

If you lose your faith in God, you never had faith to begin with  (faith =/= belief), nor does it make any coherent sense to retain a belief in the gospel.

[Meadowchik]

4 hours ago, Jaydes said:

If you lose your faith in God, you never had faith to begin with  (faith =/= belief), nor does it make any coherent sense to retain a belief in the gospel.

If you cannot have faith and lose it or then recover it then faith isn't really an act of agency, it's involuntary.

 

[JLHPROF]

7 hours ago, Jaydes said:

If you lose your faith in God, you never had faith to begin with  (faith =/= belief), nor does it make any coherent sense to retain a belief in the gospel.

Simply not true at all.

First faith isn't an all or none. It grows and ebbs, increases and decreases. People have differing amounts of faith and it changes throughout life.

Second just because you may be in a low faith period of your life doesn't mean you have to abandon your beliefs.

[MustardSeed]

9 hours ago, Jaydes said:

If you lose your faith in God, you never had faith to begin with  (faith =/= belief), nor does it make any coherent sense to retain a belief in the gospel.

I’m living proof this is incorrect

[Navidad]

I think that trust in Christ and beliefs about Christ are two completely separate issues. Any member of the LDS church can tell me I have incorrect beliefs about the gospel, God, and Christ. When I respond by saying that I have an absolute relationship and firm trust in Christ, all any member of the LDS church can do is sit in silence shaking their head because of their church's doctrine about me. Ditto for the reverse. Any Fundamentalist Christian that says, by virtue of her beliefs that a member of the LDS church is not a Christian, that same person can only sit in perplexed silence when you talk about your trust in and relationship to Christ - the person who willingly died for you long before you were a member of any church.

Which will lead us to eternal life with Him forever? Trust. Trust leads to a relationship that is circumstance resistant. Beliefs about someone in the absence of a relationship will rarely stand the test of adversity. In any church we can be taught specific and idiosyncratic beliefs. No church can teach us to trust. A church can inform us about it, but a committed relationship with Christ through thick and thin transcends correct or incorrect beliefs and will never lead Christ to say "I never knew you." He knew you well - all your incorrect beliefs about Him, all your doubts about Him, all your anger at Him. But He will also remember that you trusted in Him through it all.  My .02 cents I share with provisional certainty.

[Calm]

25 minutes ago, Navidad said:

When I respond by saying that I have an absolute relationship and firm trust in Christ, all any member of the LDS church can do is sit in silence shaking their head because of their church's doctrine about me

I don’t understand why any member would shake their head over that or over you.  If we are right in our beliefs, then someone who has such faith in Christ as you do will surely be eager to receive the ordinances once you receive a testimony from the Spirit of such ordinances (which will come in God’s time if it’s meant to be and not ours).

If we are wrong in our beliefs about the necessity of ordinances and you are right, then your situation is great and hopefully we will awaken to the truth at God’s chosen time.

If we both are wrong, you are still happy in your life, trying to be a good person as hopefully most of us are too and we should celebrate that sincerity to do good and to serve others in both of us.

Edited May 14, 2023 by Calm

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, Navidad said:

I think that trust in Christ and beliefs about Christ are two completely separate issues. Any member of the LDS church can tell me I have incorrect beliefs about the gospel, God, and Christ. When I respond by saying that I have an absolute relationship and firm trust in Christ, all any member of the LDS church can do is sit in silence shaking their head because of their church's doctrine about me. Ditto for the reverse. Any Fundamentalist Christian that says, by virtue of her beliefs that a member of the LDS church is not a Christian, that same person can only sit in perplexed silence when you talk about your trust in and relationship to Christ - the person who willingly died for you long before you were a member of any church.

Which will lead us to eternal life with Him forever? Trust. Trust leads to a relationship that is circumstance resistant. Beliefs about someone in the absence of a relationship will rarely stand the test of adversity. In any church we can be taught specific and idiosyncratic beliefs. No church can teach us to trust. A church can inform us about it, but a committed relationship with Christ through thick and thin transcends correct or incorrect beliefs and will never lead Christ to say "I never knew you." He knew you well - all your incorrect beliefs about Him, all your doubts about Him, all your anger at Him. But He will also remember that you trusted in Him through it all.  My .02 cents I share with provisional certainty.

Thank goodness it doesn't matter to God what either of us think about each other's beliefs.  In my belief, all He expects of us is that we share with others those beliefs that we believe will benefit them.  As we do that in love and kindness, our duty to love God and love each us is fulfilled.  He will handle the rest.

[Navidad]

54 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Thank goodness it doesn't matter to God what either of us think about each other's beliefs.  In my belief, all He expects of us is that we share with others those beliefs that we believe will benefit them.  As we do that in love and kindness, our duty to love God and love each us is fulfilled.  He will handle the rest.

I want to agree with you, but it is hard. How can you possibly share with me in love and in kindness, that 1. My baptism at the hands of my father was displeasing to Christ and of no effect; 2. That as I am now, I have no access to the indwelling nature or Gift of the Holy Spirit; 3. That without your ordinances I have no hope of eternal life with Christ and the Father; 4. That I pretend when taking the sacrament; 5. That a non-member should not pray in an LDS church service. And I could go on and on. The wounds are deep. There is no love and kindness in any of those statements, is there? How do any of those statements "benefit" me? If your duty is to love God and love each of us, that would be wonderful. However, your doctrine gets in the way of that. I speak as one who has lived it this past week and will live it next week. So does my wife. If you want to speak to me in love and kindness, then repudiate those doctrinal claims of your church that rob me of my relationship with God as I am. And above all, please don't tell me it isn't personal. That is neither kind nor loving.

Edited May 15, 2023 by Navidad

[bluebell]

39 minutes ago, Navidad said:

I want to agree with you, but it is hard. How can you possibly share with me in love and in kindness, that 1. My baptism at the hands of my father was displeasing to Christ and of no effect;

I believe neither thing.  Of course it wasn't displeasing to Christ and of course it has an effect. 

But yes, I do believe that priesthood authority is necessary.

Quote

2. That as I am now, I have no access to the indwelling nature or Gift of the Holy Spirit;

Not the full extent that you could, yes.  I do believe in the reality of priesthood power.

Quote

3. That without your ordinances I have no hope of eternal life with Christ and the Father;

Yes, I believe that following Christ and being willing to do all He asks (through the grace of His atonement and repentance)  is necessary to becoming joint-heirs with Him in inheriting all that the Father has.  

Quote

4. That I pretend when taking the sacrament;

I don't believe that you pretend when taking the sacrament.

Quote

5. That a non-member should not pray in an LDS church service. And I could go on and on. The wounds are deep. There is no love and kindness in any of those statements, is there? How do any of those statements "benefit" me? If your duty is to love God and love each of us, that would be wonderful. However, your doctrine gets in the way of that. I speak as one who has lived it this past week and will live it next week. So does my wife. If you want to speak to me in love and kindness, then repudiate those doctrinal claims of your church that rob me of my relationship with God as I am. And above all, please don't tell me it isn't personal. That is neither kind nor loving.

Is there love and kindness in your statements and beliefs to me that contradict and imply unloving things about my personal and deeply held beliefs?

I have always assumed that there was, because I don't believe that sharing in love and kindness as a single thing to do with agreeing with each other, but maybe I've been misunderstanding you all these years. 

Are you only sharing in love and kindness when you agree with me?

[Navidad]

2 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I believe neither thing.  Of course it wasn't displeasing to Christ and of course it has an effect. 

But yes, I do believe that priesthood authority is necessary.

Not the full extent that you could, yes.  I do believe in the reality of priesthood power.

Yes, I believe that following Christ and being willing to do all He asks (through the grace of His atonement and repentance)  is necessary to becoming joint-heirs with Him in inheriting all that the Father has.  

I don't believe that you pretend when taking the sacrament.

Is there love and kindness in your statements and beliefs to me that contradict and imply unloving things about my personal and deeply held beliefs?

I have always assumed that there was, because I don't believe that sharing in love and kindness as a single thing to do with agreeing with each other, but maybe I've been misunderstanding you all these years. 

Are you only sharing in love and kindness when you agree with me?

Actually, I just ran back into the office to delete everything I wrote in that reply. I apparently missed the opportunity to do so by five minutes or so. I regret what I wrote.
However, in love and kindness I would like you to understand how painful this journey into the world of LDSdom as an outsider has been for my wife and me.  Each step deeper into the world of LDS doctrine has been more painful. That is my experience and yes, my testimony. My disagreements with the LDS faith have nothing to do with me denying you the fullness and completeness of your relationship with Christ. I grant you that when many of my faith would not. . . because I know you better than they do. Yet, you completely deny me mine because that is your doctrine which you uphold regardless of the distance and pain it creates. It is a strange doctrine that has such a vice-like grip on its adherents.

There is nothing left in the ward for us. The only thing it seems that is left for me is to become like the non-LDS historians I know who have no personal stake other than academic credibility in their study of the LDS faith as if it were any other faith in the world. The difference is I really do have LDS folks in my life who I love. Love is a fruit of the spirit. I fear becoming a clanging bell as if I were studying the faith of the Hausa in Mali.

This was different for me. It is less so every week. I am like the Prisoner of Chillon in Lord Byron's poem - even I will leave with a sigh! The words "it's nothing personal" will forever ring in my eyes and bring tears to my eyes. Take care and very best wishes.
 

[bluebell]

14 hours ago, Navidad said:

Actually, I just ran back into the office to delete everything I wrote in that reply. I apparently missed the opportunity to do so by five minutes or so. I regret what I wrote.
However, in love and kindness I would like you to understand how painful this journey into the world of LDSdom as an outsider has been for my wife and me.  Each step deeper into the world of LDS doctrine has been more painful. That is my experience and yes, my testimony. My disagreements with the LDS faith have nothing to do with me denying you the fullness and completeness of your relationship with Christ. I grant you that when many of my faith would not. . . because I know you better than they do. Yet, you completely deny me mine because that is your doctrine which you uphold regardless of the distance and pain it creates. It is a strange doctrine that has such a vice-like grip on its adherents.

There is nothing left in the ward for us. The only thing it seems that is left for me is to become like the non-LDS historians I know who have no personal stake other than academic credibility in their study of the LDS faith as if it were any other faith in the world. The difference is I really do have LDS folks in my life who I love. Love is a fruit of the spirit. I fear becoming a clanging bell as if I were studying the faith of the Hausa in Mali.

This was different for me. It is less so every week. I am like the Prisoner of Chillon in Lord Byron's poem - even I will leave with a sigh! The words "it's nothing personal" will forever ring in my eyes and bring tears to my eyes. Take care and very best wishes.
 

I am truly sorry for the pain and hurt that you are feeling, but I am powerless to do anything about it.  In my belief, that is between you and Christ and has nothing to do with me. 

In regards to the bold, you are able to grant that to me because your beliefs allow it.  If you sincerely believed that Jesus required more of me, then would you still grant it to me?  Would you choose to lessen my hurt and pain by defying Christ?

Because that is what you are asking most members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to do.  You are saying "I know that you believe that these requirements come from Jesus, but I don't agree and I want you to do something you sincerely believe Jesus does not want you to do, to help me feel loved and included"

How can we do that?  How anyone go against their beliefs of what God is asking them to do?

[Teancum]

On 5/12/2023 at 6:51 PM, smac97 said:

Huh.  How very . . . dogmatic of you.

 

Sort of like your comment that morals derive from the "gospel."  But which gospel?  Whose gospel?  And as I asked before which God?

On 5/12/2023 at 6:51 PM, smac97 said:

I don't know what you mean by "unique."  

Unique meaning the moral issues.  Much of the morals you think your gospel has are from other sources and have existed for a long time.  I was not referring to some of the unique LDS truth claims like gold plates.

 

 

On 5/12/2023 at 6:51 PM, smac97 said:

I think the Restored Gospel has some fairly unique attributes.  The Gold Plates.  Witnesses.  The text of the Book of Mormon.  Moroni's Challenge.  Claims of continuing authority, an open canon, personal revelation, etc.  

See above. These are not morals.

 

On 5/12/2023 at 6:51 PM, smac97 said:

I know that, and yet many of them affirm these things in one breath and then turn away from them in the next.  That was my point.

I am sorry can you please clarify this point?

 

On 5/12/2023 at 6:51 PM, smac97 said:

That is not an accurate summary of my position.

Ok.  May I ask then. Is there a basis for coming to good, proper and ethical morals with out religion and a god figure?

 

 

On 5/12/2023 at 6:51 PM, smac97 said:

Some do, some don't.  Those who do may well be the more legitimate "atheists" out there (a backhanded compliment, to be sure), while those who do not, who constrain their behavior to that which is "good," are "are plundering the resources of Christianity." 

Well sure.  I imagine there are good and bad actor of all stripes right?  Atheist's, Christians, Muslims etc.   So you think good atheists morals come from Christianity only.

On 5/12/2023 at 6:51 PM, smac97 said:

 

 

This is akin to an actor spouting Hamlet's Soliloquy and then claiming that he came up with it all by myself.  "Sure, bud.  Sure.  Whatever you say."

I disagree.  Morals come for, other sources besides religion. In fact it could be said morals came first that religion was invented to put a god being around them to give them credence.  And honestly I find a lot lacking in the morals of the Judeo Christian God.  One only need to read especially the Old Testament to conclude such.

 

On 5/12/2023 at 6:51 PM, smac97 said:

"More moral."  Your very vocabulary presupposes what you deny: a delineation between right ("moral") and wrong.

I do not think I made that argument. I do believe in right and wrong.  Morals, good ones and immorals as well.  I just do not believe that without religion there are suddenly no morals. I think serious thinkers about such things believe similarly.  Can ethics and morals be developed with out a god being?  Sam Harris and many others seem to think so.

On 5/12/2023 at 6:51 PM, smac97 said:

I'd like to take this as a good faith inquiry, but I don't think it is.

Wee you would be wrong then. It was and is a good faith inquiry.

 

On 5/12/2023 at 6:51 PM, smac97 said:

You know Latter-day Saints declare belief in a "Supreme Creator" (Alma 30:44), that "he hath created all things, both the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are" (2 Nephi 2:14), that "he has all wisdom, and all power, both in heaven and in earth," and that we "{do} not comprehend all the things which the Lord can comprehend" (Mosiah 4:9), and so on.

So asking "Which God" is like asking "Which Bill Clinton was POTUS and married to Hillary?"  I mean, you can ask it, but it's an unserious question.

It seems serious to me. The teaching and morals from your God may be different than the gods of other religions. 

On 5/12/2023 at 6:51 PM, smac97 said:

Right.  And we don't need Shakespeare to have written Hamlet and King Lear.  They're just there.

A poor comparison IMO.

 

On 5/12/2023 at 6:51 PM, smac97 said:

I've read a bit about it.  He's the advocate of, in essence, hedonism, right?  See, e.g., here:

The entire review is worth a read.

OK I read it.  Some if it is in his book the Moral Landscape. I do not view Harris and a proponent of hedonisms at least the way I understand the word.   And this is what you do. Someone refers to something someone may have written on a subject, or done something so support the posterd view and you seem to just try to find something to cast the writer, etc in bad light.

 

On 5/12/2023 at 6:51 PM, smac97 said:

Again, how very dogmatic of you.

Pot meet kettlle.

On 5/12/2023 at 6:51 PM, smac97 said:

I don't think so.  Korihor's hedonistic philosophy has been manifest in a variety of ways through history, and is alive and kicking today.

Right.  “All Indians walk in single file lines.  At least, the one I saw did.”

Thanks,

-Smac

 

[Navidad]

5 hours ago, bluebell said:

I am truly sorry for the pain and hurt that you are feeling, but I am powerless to do anything about it.  In my belief, that is between you and Christ and has nothing to do with me. 

In regards to the bold, you are able to grant that to me because your beliefs allow it.  If you sincerely believed that Jesus required more of me, then would you still grant it to me?  Would you choose to lessen my hurt and pain by defying Christ?

Because that is what you are asking most members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to do.  You are saying "I know that you believe that these requirements come from Jesus, but I don't agree and I want you to do something you sincerely believe Jesus does not want you to do, to help me feel loved and included"

How can we do that?  How anyone go against their beliefs of what God is asking them to do?

That is an excellent question. It is very hard for me to answer. I would never think that changing my already provisionally certain core doctrinal beliefs is equivalent to  defying Christ. I am much more inclined to trust Christ to understand that He has chosen not to give us a complete understanding of the gospel. In light of that dark glass, I value all other Christian beliefs and worldviews enough to moderate my own, especially when it comes to the salvific.

If wonderful Godly people believe differently than me, how can I deny them the validity of their relationship with Christ because they disagree with me, or I with them? Hence while I may disagree, I also grant them the validity, reality, and reliability of what they claim - a relationship with Christ. That someone denies that same thing in my life in a way that is kind, in no way negates the pain when there are relationships involved. You see the LDS don't just disagree with me . . . they deny the reality of the salvific, personal, intimate relationship with Christ that I, as a proxy for like-minded millions of other Christians have.

This is deep stuff as you said yesterday. Your doctrine that you so deeply believe in, condemns me to live here on earth as a fool, a fraud, a pretender, one who is 100% utterly and completely dependent on your institution to grant me eternal life with Christ and the Father forever, and that in and of itself seems to be in question as I read all the different perspectives by members of your faith on the reality of the three kingdoms and differing levels of the highest. For me, someone who looks forward to eternity with the Savior, anything less is a form of hell. Yet to some degree, you (used collectively) cannot even offer assurance to the members of your own faith which kingdom they will dwell in for eternity. I find that hard to comprehend.
 

What is that I am asking you to do? I am asking you to withhold judgment on my destiny until after Christ has completed His judgment on my destiny. I am willing to do that for you and for any other individual. I am willing to go to the Savior just as I am; redeemed by His atonement.  I am also happy and excited for you to do the same, based on your own convictions, not on mine. Are you so positive that you know how He will judge Navidad before that even happens that you can't grant credence to his (Navidad's) faith and trust in Christ, and that Christ may very well honor that by extending the already existing earthly relationship into eternity? Does that concept so deeply rock the foundation of your faith, that you are unable to do that?

Are you so certain I am deceiving myself, and all non-LDS Christian believers do the same when we speak of a deep relationship with the Savior via the Holy Spirit - in my case for half a century now? Are you so certain that you are willing to risk relationships with family members, friends, co-workers, and those of other faiths who are special to you (I am not thinking of me -I am just a goofy guy on a forum) in order to uphold what is at best a through-the-glass-darkly-limited-understanding of eternity that I think we all share?  Thanks for you response to me. I really do appreciate your willingness to dialogue with me about something that is so very deep and important. As the old hymn says "My hope is built on nothing less than Jesus' blood and righteousness." Are you certain that is an empty hope? Best . . .

Edited May 15, 2023 by Navidad

[mfbukowski]

19 hours ago, bluebell said:

Are you only sharing in love and kindness when you agree with me?

Welcome to the club.

[pogi]

3 hours ago, Navidad said:

You see the LDS don't just disagree with me . . . they deny the reality of the salvific, personal, intimate relationship with Christ that I, as a proxy for like-minded millions of other Christians have.

I don't think any Latter-day Saint would agree with this statement.  

3 hours ago, Navidad said:

For me, someone who looks forward to eternity with the Savior, anything less is a form of hell. Yet to some degree, you (used collectively) cannot even offer assurance to the members of your own faith which kingdom they will dwell in for eternity. I find that hard to comprehend.

3 hours ago, Navidad said:

What is that I am asking you to do? I am asking you to withhold judgment on my destiny until after Christ has completed His judgment on my destiny. I am willing to do that for you and for any other individual. I am willing to go to the Savior just as I am; redeemed by His atonement.  I am also happy and excited for you to do the same, based on your own convictions, not on mine. Are you so positive that you know how He will judge Navidad before that even happens that you can't grant credence to his (Navidad's) faith and trust in Christ, and that Christ may very well honor that by extending the already existing earthly relationship into eternity? Does that concept so deeply rock the foundation of your faith, that you are unable to do that?

 It is against our doctrine to place any kind of final judgment on another individual.  Hense the strong resistance to provide any sort of "assurances to the members...which kingdom they will dwell in for eternity".  Final judgment is a LONG way away!  We still have to go through the entire millennium before that will happen.   There is no way we can make judgment of any individual, and I think it is way too big of an assumption to presume that we cannot or will not change beliefs/perspectives as new light is revealed through the second coming and within that millennia of time with the Savior among us.  We have faith that the Lord has revealed his requirements (not ours) for exaltation.  Upholding that faith is not equivalent to judging the eternal destiny of other's or making any kind of eternal assurances of salvation, damnation or exaltation - it is simply relaying what we believe the Lord has revealed to His prophets.    If you don't hold the same faith right now, no one is saying that you will be condemned for it.  But if the Lord reveals it to you at some point within that millennia before final judgment, then all that is left to ask is will you be open to accept the Lord's revelation despite your provisional certitude to the contrary?  I can tell you right now, that if I am given a direct revelation from God within that time frame that my faith is wrong, I would change as directed by the Lord.  You talk a lot about certainty - are you so certain that your dark glass is as clear as you seem to think it is?  I certainly am not so certain about my perspective.  I walk in faith as the Lord directs.  If he tells me to turn left, I will turn left.  If he tells me to turn right, I will turn right, even if that means leaving the church/kingdom of God and cause that I have dedicated my life to up to this point.  Are you that willing to turn from what you believe at this moment in your life?   I think it is that it is only through that kind of humility that we have any hope of exaltation. If you and I both have that kind of humility, then I don't think there is anything to be concerned about.   We will be directed where the Lord wants us.   There is no judgment in that position, despite our current differences in faith. 

3 hours ago, Navidad said:

Are you so certain I am deceiving myself, and all non-LDS Christian believers do the same when we speak of a deep relationship with the Savior via the Holy Spirit - in my case for half a century now?

Again, I don't think any Latter-day Saint would suggest that you are deceiving yourself.  I honestly don't understand where you are coming from with this.  Who is claiming that you don't have a deep relationship with the Savior via the Holy Spirit?