bluebell Posted February 21, 2023 Posted February 21, 2023 5 minutes ago, manol said: Being prudent and protecting the innocent (even if that means incarcerating someone for life because that's the only way) are not the same thing as holding that person in condemnation. One reason not to hold another in condemnation is that there is a price tag attached: We have to lower our spiritual state in order the feel negativity towards another. It doesn't matter how justified we are - we cannot hold another in darkness without lowering ourselves into darkness too. No matter how justified, we cannot hate without lowering our energy into the state of "hate". So imo we do what is prudent and protective (and healing wherever possible), and sometimes that means removing a person from our lives (temporarily or permanently), but we would be wise to do so without going into hatred and condemnation because that carries a price tag and offers us nothing of value in return. I think you might be using a unique definition of condemnation or condemn. Hating another isn’t a part of the definition I would use, for example. To me to condemn means to censure or say that someone is worthy of a specific punishment (such as prison).
Grug the Neanderthal Posted February 21, 2023 Posted February 21, 2023 40 minutes ago, pogi said: I would not agree with any of this. I’m sure you wouldn’t, but I obviously have your beliefs pegged pretty well in the section you didn’t respond to.
mfbukowski Posted February 21, 2023 Posted February 21, 2023 4 hours ago, Tacenda said: I hate to break it to you, but many members believe in righteous judgement. I was listening to this podcast part 1 where they talk about righteous judgement and we're wrong if we think we're not to judge. I think they have different languages to listen to it with. It's part of the Come Follow Me lessons I believe. https://followhim.co/new-testament-episodes-1-10/ Plus Plus
Grug the Neanderthal Posted February 21, 2023 Posted February 21, 2023 1 hour ago, bluebell said: But there isn't anything you can say to lead me to that place where you are. The upside to my perspective is that I don't believe it's possible for me to lose blessings because of something the prophets have done in good faith, believing they are doing God's will. I get that you believe that you can lose blessings through no fault of your own, but that is nonsense to me. I don’t doubt that there’s nothing I can say to change your mind. But if I’m right that the changes are a loss of light and knowledge, then I expect that the Lord will intervene at some point and set things back in order. And if that day comes, then you and the others who share your perspective would undoubtedly come to the realization that you had in fact lost a great deal and didn’t realize it at the time.
mfbukowski Posted February 21, 2023 Posted February 21, 2023 4 hours ago, bluebell said: It’s very true. One of the doctrines of the church is that truth is not relative and that we must be able to judge between truth and error if we want to learn to follow Christ. Relativism does not discount truth- in fact it is defined in the same way Alma teaches. Alma teaches relative truth, as what is "sweet"- ie what brings your heart closer to God as "truth" To attack relativism is to attack Alma 32- truth is what works to achieve the desired end. In the case of spiritual truth, it might be defined as those beliefs which one perceives brings then closer to God, like prayer, obedience, following the commandments, kindness and following one's own conscience- also called the "Holy Spirit". It includes the idea of an open canon and PROGRESSION and BECOMING more Christlike daily- THAT is not possible in a fixed and unchanging theory of "truth". It is not possible to become like Christ without changing and adjusting one's concept of "truth" and what works for you to become like Him. One must learn new techniques that work and then live them, and refine them, so truth becomes a progression as we grow in Christ. THAT is why we have gradations in the priesthood That is why we have progression into temple worship. It is why we have 3 kingdoms according to one's "advancement" and spiritual progession. Jesus was chosen because he was the "most intelligent" - it is said- that actually means he was the most advanced spiritually. Who would voluntarily pick the fate of living the atonement- of experiencing ever single horrible pain and loss of virtue as a way of life- for OTHERS like us? HE COULD DO THAT. THAT is progression - THAT is "BECOMING" THAT is spiritual PROGRESSION, that is LEARNING line upon line. THAT is relativism- THAT is change, not being frozen fossil, stuck in time, being a robot unable to progress. 2
MustardSeed Posted February 21, 2023 Posted February 21, 2023 20 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said: I don’t doubt that there’s nothing I can say to change your mind. But if I’m right that the changes are a loss of light and knowledge, then I expect that the Lord will intervene at some point and set things back in order. And if that day comes, then you and the others who share your perspective would undoubtedly come to the realization that you had in fact lost a great deal and didn’t realize it at the time. What difference will that make at that point? So you know more than the rest of us. Slow clap. 4
bluebell Posted February 21, 2023 Posted February 21, 2023 21 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said: I don’t doubt that there’s nothing I can say to change your mind. But if I’m right that the changes are a loss of light and knowledge, then I expect that the Lord will intervene at some point and set things back in order. And if that day comes, then you and the others who share your perspective would undoubtedly come to the realization that you had in fact lost a great deal and didn’t realize it at the time. Maybe. The same is true for you though if you’re wrong so it seems like a useless point to make. It’s as much a condemnation of your beliefs as it is mine. I’ve been told similar things by baptists, Calvinists, and those people who believe that letting your kids read Harry Potter will lead to their ruin. Most of the time they don’t actually care about me, they just want the glory of being right. Eh, good luck to them. Changing a belief in who God is because someone says you’ll be sorry if you don’t just doesn’t seem like a good way to go through life. I’ll stick with what the Spirit has told me, as much as seeing through a glass darkly will allow me anyway. 3
bluebell Posted February 21, 2023 Posted February 21, 2023 9 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Relativism does not discount truth- in fact it is defined in the same way Alma teaches. Alma teaches relative truth, as what is "sweet"- ie what brings your heart closer to God as "truth" To attack relativism is to attack Alma 32- truth is what works to achieve the desired end. In the case of spiritual truth, it might be defined as those beliefs which one perceives brings then closer to God, like prayer, obedience, following the commandments, kindness and following one's own conscience- also called the "Holy Spirit". It includes the idea of an open canon and PROGRESSION and BECOMING more Christlike daily- THAT is not possible in a fixed and unchanging theory of "truth". It is not possible to become like Christ without changing and adjusting one's concept of "truth" and what works for you to become like Him. One must learn new techniques that work and then live them, and refine them, so truth becomes a progression as we grow in Christ. THAT is why we have gradations in the priesthood That is why we have progression into temple worship. It is why we have 3 kingdoms according to one's "advancement" and spiritual progession. Jesus was chosen because he was the "most intelligent" - it is said- that actually means he was the most advanced spiritually. Who would voluntarily pick the fate of living the atonement- of experiencing ever single horrible pain and loss of virtue as a way of life- for OTHERS like us? HE COULD DO THAT. THAT is progression - THAT is "BECOMING" THAT is spiritual PROGRESSION, that is LEARNING line upon line. THAT is relativism- THAT is change, not being frozen fossil, stuck in time, being a robot unable to progress. I use relative to mean that idea that whatever someone believes is true, is true. That is the relativism that the prophets warn against. Something isn’t true or false based on our beliefs about it. It exists outside of whether or not we agree.
bluebell Posted February 21, 2023 Posted February 21, 2023 5 minutes ago, MustardSeed said: What difference will that make at that point? Exactly. It won’t make a bit of difference. No blessing can be withheld because of the actions of another. If we don’t get it now we will get it then.
Calm Posted February 21, 2023 Posted February 21, 2023 1 hour ago, manol said: Being prudent and protecting the innocent (even if that means incarcerating someone for life because that's the only way) are not the same thing as holding that person in condemnation. One reason not to hold another in condemnation is that there is a price tag attached: We have to lower our spiritual state in order the feel negativity towards another. It doesn't matter how justified we are - we cannot hold another in darkness without lowering ourselves into darkness too. No matter how justified, we cannot hate without lowering our energy into the state of "hate". So imo we do what is prudent and protective (and healing wherever possible), and sometimes that means removing a person from our lives (temporarily or permanently), but we would be wise to do so without going into hatred and condemnation because that carries a price tag and offers us nothing of value in return. What is condemnation then? To me it can amount to saying you are doing serious harm to others and you have the ability to stop, therefore you must stop or be condemned as a wrongdoer. I think some forms of public condemnation are needed to impress those who are less able to hear an inner voice steering them to loving behaviour or at least moral behaviour there are reasons not to harm others.
manol Posted February 21, 2023 Posted February 21, 2023 10 minutes ago, Calm said: What is condemnation then? To me it can amount to saying you are doing serious harm to others and you have the ability to stop, therefore you must stop or be condemned as a wrongdoer. I would call that "correction". 10 minutes ago, Calm said: I think some forms of public condemnation are needed to impress those who are less able to hear an inner voice steering them to loving behaviour or at least moral behaviour there are reasons not to harm others. Again, I would call that "correction."
Grug the Neanderthal Posted February 21, 2023 Posted February 21, 2023 (edited) 30 minutes ago, bluebell said: The same is true for you though if you’re wrong Sure. And I have no problem accepting that. 30 minutes ago, bluebell said: Changing a belief in who God is because someone says you’ll be sorry if you don’t just doesn’t seem like a good way to go through life. I definitely haven’t suggesting that you do this. Just pointing out that when you insist that you haven’t lost anything with the temple changes that you don’t actually know this and that in a future day you may change your mind. That’s all. Edited February 21, 2023 by Grug the Neanderthal
Grug the Neanderthal Posted February 21, 2023 Posted February 21, 2023 30 minutes ago, MustardSeed said: What difference will that make at that point? Hard to say. Could make a huge difference. It all depends on how much the church changes and whether or not God approves of the changes. 32 minutes ago, MustardSeed said: So you know more than the rest of us. Did I say that?
Bernard Gui Posted February 21, 2023 Posted February 21, 2023 2 hours ago, Calm said: Can you get a decent pair of noise canceling headphones? I am looking into them as my hearing sensitivity seems to be going up and I am not too comfortable when all the family is together, but of course I want to be there with my grandkids, son and his wife. Always a bit nervous about buying something a bit more expensive, lol. Thank goodness for consumer reports and other online reviews….(if anyone has suggestions, PM me please…) I don’t know how I would manage if my neighbours were like yours. If you need silence, swimmers gel earplugs are a blessing. 1
Rain Posted February 21, 2023 Posted February 21, 2023 3 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said: I appreciate the sentiments, but will also add that you may have lost a great deal and just don’t realize it yet. You may also have gained a great deal and just don't realize it yet 2
Calm Posted February 21, 2023 Posted February 21, 2023 (edited) 49 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: If you need silence, swimmers gel earplugs are a blessing. No, not silence as I have tinnitus as well. I need to lower the volume only. I can’t use earplugs/earbuds either, so it’s headphones. Do you mean the moldable silicone ones or something else? Edited February 21, 2023 by Calm
Calm Posted February 21, 2023 Posted February 21, 2023 1 hour ago, manol said: I would call that "correction". Again, I would call that "correction." So condemnation is shaming in your view or something else?
manol Posted February 21, 2023 Posted February 21, 2023 (edited) 24 minutes ago, Calm said: So condemnation is shaming in your view or something else? Dictionary definition of "condemn": "To declare to be reprehensible, wrong, or evil usually after weighing evidence and without reservation." Edited February 21, 2023 by manol
Dario_M Posted February 21, 2023 Posted February 21, 2023 (edited) 6 hours ago, Calm said: Can you get a decent pair of noise canceling headphones? I am looking into them as my hearing sensitivity seems to be going up and I am not too comfortable when all the family is together, I rather wanna hear my family talking then that i need to listen this disco music from yesterday. 🔊Boom boom boom boom! That is what i heard. And around 2 a clock i heard some man screaming outside as well. Not sure or they where into a fight or something And i'm like 😭! 6 hours ago, Calm said: but of course I want to be there with my grandkids, son and his wife. Always a bit nervous about buying something a bit more expensive, lol. Thank goodness for consumer reports and other online reviews….(if anyone has suggestions, PM me please…) I don’t know how I would manage if my neighbours were like yours. I also ask myself how i manage this. Crying😭 I had the same problem in the Netherlands. Everywhere i moved to whas a nightmare and i couldn't sleep. So i whas so stoked when i finaly decided to move to Lisbon. I thought to myself "Yes thinks will change for the better from now on. And i am finaly with my parents" And now i am here my parent's have kicked me out their house and i am now living here in Miratejo with my grandma and people are acting exactly the same with maybe even more noise then what i had in the Netherlands. And offcourse worse when it get's night. (Lucky for me that in the weekends i am mostely away in the night hours. Smart of me to do that.) And you know what...on the daytime i don't mind this at all. It get's a problem when it get's night and i just wanna sleep. My eyes are getting prity red. 🔴 O dear lord please. ✝️ Edited February 21, 2023 by Dario_M
Dario_M Posted February 21, 2023 Posted February 21, 2023 8 hours ago, Tacenda said: I think they have different languages to listen to it with. https://followhim.co/new-testament-episodes-1-10/ Also in Dutch?
Grug the Neanderthal Posted February 21, 2023 Posted February 21, 2023 6 hours ago, Rain said: You may also have gained a great deal and just don't realize it yet What could I have gained from the endowment being changed and having teachings and symbolism removed?
MustardSeed Posted February 21, 2023 Posted February 21, 2023 21 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said: What could I have gained from the endowment being changed and having teachings and symbolism removed? Compassion for others. 2
Dario_M Posted February 21, 2023 Posted February 21, 2023 (edited) Oh my..the endowment. I don't even wanna be blessed with that sort of things. And fortunatly i don't need to.🥳 In the beginning when i whas just a new mormon the first day after i got baptized and received the holy ghost i didn't even realised that the endowmend whas such an important thing in the LDS church. My missionaries didn't told me that. Edited February 21, 2023 by Dario_M
Teancum Posted February 21, 2023 Posted February 21, 2023 12 hours ago, bluebell said: That's because it's not problematic for every paradigm of belief in the church (is that the word I want to use? I could be misappling it). But for some it is and I think that's valid. Well as I have stated it seems knowing the characteristics and attributes of God was once the first principle of the LDS gospel. Yet it has been a moving target. If Brigham was wrong on Adam God then he taught a false god. That is a problem for a prophet at least according the the Bible. But it seems little matters in the Church on these things any more and the target keeps moving. Same with temple ordinances.
Grug the Neanderthal Posted February 21, 2023 Posted February 21, 2023 3 minutes ago, MustardSeed said: Compassion for others. How so?
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