What Can Faithful Non-Members Do in the Spiritual Life and Ministry of a Ward or Stake?

[Navidad]

On another thread we have had some chats about what a non-member may or may not do in a ward or stake. For purposes of the dialogue I am going to use my wife and I as the example and will pose only real life questions that have or might have to be decided regarding our service opportunities in our ward. To clarify, we have been attending the ward faithfully for over five years now. We pretty much attend everything that happens except our ward Temple night. We are in a small community in the boonies of Chihuahua. It is a smallish ward made up of descendants of lots of LDS "royalty."

My wife exudes Godliness, kindness and Biblical knowledge. She and the ladies of our ward are very very close. I exude . . . well I exude . . . well I exude an encyclopedic knowledge of LDS and general Mormon history. I talk a lot (what a surprise!), minored in vocal performance in college, and was ordained by my denomination for my gifts in speaking, counseling, and helps. Oh, and did I mention I can talk about the Allreds for hours when they come down here for a reunion! Here I go with the questions - again each one has really happened, or may happen in the future. Oh, and my wife and I have spoken with each of the three bishops over the five years that we are voluntarily placing ourselves under his spiritual authority as the spiritual leader of the church we attend. We feel that is very important to do if we are going to regularly attend.

I am limiting my questions to ward and stake potentials. I have been active in MHA for longer than I have been in the ward. There do not seem to be issues with most MHA members with having non-LDS historians be active there. I have been entertained by well-known Mormon historians on several occasions, and probably have given it back as well as I have taken it - especially the stories. "Hey did you hear the one about the night Isaac Haight (under an assumed name) got into a fight at Turley Camp with George Calvin Williams, a Baptist preacher convert from northwest Arkansas? Here we go . . .

Oh, and I hope this will be two parts serious for every two parts fun. I will ask the questions without telling you how each one was decided. I am sure there are many more questions that have come up over the five years or may come up in the future. Maybe some of you have questions or comments to add to the conversation. If the handbook doesn't say a non-member may do something, does that mean they can't or is it an implication it is a local discretion issue? Or is it something that simply hasn't been contemplated? Thanks for participating. We will have participation trophies! Oh, and we are both 73 years old if that matters.

Can a non-member serve by cleaning?

Can a non-member serve by being in charge of cleaning?

May a non-member sing in the choir or a solo at a funeral?

May a non-member read the Christmas story in the cultural hall at the Christmas celebration?

May a non-member give an invocation before a ward meal, second hour service, or in a member's home?

May a non-member regularly donate to the fast offering? Have a number from the ward clerk?

Should non-members be counted in sacrament attendance figures?

Should long-term faithful non-members be discouraged or encouraged to take the sacrament?

May a non-member substitute teach a lesson when the teacher is not there?

May a female married non-member be the second adult required to be in a Primary class as long as the teacher is a member?

May a non-member give a testimony on fast Sunday of what the church means to her?

May a non-member provide a fireside talk for the greater LDS community? For example on the similarities and differences between our local faiths?

May a non-member lead tours of historical sites and provide information regarding the same?

May a non-member serve on the stake or ward history committee?

May a non-member sing a solo on Sunday morning or at the annual Christmas concert? In German?

May non-members provide meals for the missionaries?

May non-members provide bathroom facilities for missionaries who are working in their village?

May non-members regularly take the missionaries back to their apartment when they get "stuck" in that village (a fifteen minute drive)?

May a non-member host and lead the "emptynesters" get together? What happens when the non-member couple wins the annual ward Newlywed game?  Oh My!

May non-members sing in the stake choir?

May they visit the sick and lonely with a priesthood holder? If so, may they pray (not administer a blessing)?

May they cook meals and take them to members who need help?

Edited December 28, 2022 by Navidad
clarification

[Tacenda]

I assume you and your dear wife have done all of the above. 🤗😄

[blackstrap]

From what I have seen, you are at least as much a " member " as many " members " I know. 

As for the questions, I would answer YES to all except those that would require a Bishops, SPs or GAs authority first ,which seems to have been done. 

Edited December 27, 2022 by blackstrap

[Navidad]

13 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I assume you and your dear wife have done all of the above. 🤗😄

Not really, some were or may be decided in the negative in the future.

 

Edited December 28, 2022 by Navidad

[CV75]

2 hours ago, Navidad said:

On another thread we have had some chats about what a non-member may or may not do in a ward or stake. For purposes of the dialogue I am going to use my wife and I as the example and will pose only real life questions that have to be decided regarding our service opportunities in our ward. To clarify, we have been attending the ward faithfully for over five years now. We pretty much attend everything that happens except our ward Temple night. We are in a small community in the boonies of Chihuahua. It is a smallish ward made up of descendants of lots of LDS "royalty."

My wife exudes Godliness, kindness and Biblical knowledge. She and the ladies of our ward are very very close. I exude . . . well I exude . . . well I exude an encyclopedic knowledge of LDS and general Mormon history. I talk a lot (what a surprise!), minored in vocal performance in college, and was ordained by my denomination for my gifts in speaking, counseling, and helps. Oh, and did I mention I can talk about the Allreds for hours when they come down here for a reunion! Here I go with the questions - again each one has really happened. Oh, and my wife and I have spoken with each of the three bishops over the five years that we are voluntarily placing ourselves under his spiritual authority as the spiritual leader of the church we attend. We feel that is very important to do if we are going to regularly attend.

I am limiting my questions to ward and stake things. I have been active in MHA for longer than I have been in the ward. There do not seem to be issues with most MHA members with having non-LDS historians be active there. I have been entertained by Will Bagley and Mike Quinn on several occasions, and probably have given it back as well as I have taken it - especially the stories. "Hey did you hear the one about the night Isaac Haight (under an assumed name) got into a fight at Turley Camp with George Calvin Williams, a Baptist preacher convert from northwest Arkansas? Here we go . . .

Oh, and I hope this will be two parts serious for every two parts fun. I will ask the questions without telling you how each one was decided. I am sure there are many more questions that have come up over the five years. Maybe some of you have questions to add to the conversation. If the handbook doesn't say a non-member may do something, does that mean they can't or is it an implication it is a local discretion issue? Thanks for participating. We will have participation trophies! Oh, and we are both 73 years old if that matters.

Can a non-member serve by cleaning?

Can a non-member serve by being in charge of cleaning?

May a non-member sing a solo at a funeral?

May a non-member read the Christmas story in the cultural hall at the Christmas celebration?

May a non-member give an invocation before a ward meal, second hour service, or in a member's home?

May a non-member regularly donate to the fast offering? Have a number from the ward clerk?

Should non-members be counted in sacrament attendance figures?

Should long-term faithful non-members be discouraged or encouraged to take the sacrament?

May a non-member substitute teach a lesson when the teacher is not there and a general authority emeritus is in regular attendance and approves?

May a female married non-member be the second adult required to be in a Primary class as long as the teacher is a member?

May a non-member give a testimony on fast Sunday of what the church means to her?

May a non-member provide a fireside talk for the greater LDS community? For example on the similarities and differences between our local faiths?

May a non-member lead tours of historical sites and provide information regarding the same?

May a non-member serve on the stake or ward history committee?

May a non-member sing a solo on Sunday morning or at the annual Christmas concert? In German?

May non-members provide meals for the missionaries?

May non-members provide bathroom facilities for missionaries who are working in their village?

May non-members regularly take the missionaries back to their apartment when they get "stuck" in that village (a fifteen minute drive)?

May a non-member host and lead the "emptynesters" get together? What happens when the non-member couple wins the annual ward Newlywed game?  Oh My!

May non-members sing in the stake choir?

May they pray at a stake meeting?

May they visit the sick and lonely with a priesthood holder? If so, may they pray (not administer a blessing)?

May they cook meals and take them to members who need help?

You can get baptized and confirmed  

[CV75]

These and regulations are found in the original Book of Deuteronomy.

[Navidad]

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

These and regulations are found in the original Book of Deuteronomy.

I am not sure what that means. Help me out!

[Scott Lloyd]

On 12/27/2022 at 12:58 PM, Navidad said:

On another thread we have had some chats about what a non-member may or may not do in a ward or stake. For purposes of the dialogue I am going to use my wife and I as the example and will pose only real life questions that have to be decided regarding our service opportunities in our ward. To clarify, we have been attending the ward faithfully for over five years now. We pretty much attend everything that happens except our ward Temple night. We are in a small community in the boonies of Chihuahua. It is a smallish ward made up of descendants of lots of LDS "royalty."

My wife exudes Godliness, kindness and Biblical knowledge. She and the ladies of our ward are very very close. I exude . . . well I exude . . . well I exude an encyclopedic knowledge of LDS and general Mormon history. I talk a lot (what a surprise!), minored in vocal performance in college, and was ordained by my denomination for my gifts in speaking, counseling, and helps. Oh, and did I mention I can talk about the Allreds for hours when they come down here for a reunion! Here I go with the questions - again each one has really happened. Oh, and my wife and I have spoken with each of the three bishops over the five years that we are voluntarily placing ourselves under his spiritual authority as the spiritual leader of the church we attend. We feel that is very important to do if we are going to regularly attend.

I am limiting my questions to ward and stake things. I have been active in MHA for longer than I have been in the ward. There do not seem to be issues with most MHA members with having non-LDS historians be active there. I have been entertained by Will Bagley and Mike Quinn on several occasions, and probably have given it back as well as I have taken it - especially the stories. "Hey did you hear the one about the night Isaac Haight (under an assumed name) got into a fight at Turley Camp with George Calvin Williams, a Baptist preacher convert from northwest Arkansas? Here we go . . .

Oh, and I hope this will be two parts serious for every two parts fun. I will ask the questions without telling you how each one was decided. I am sure there are many more questions that have come up over the five years. Maybe some of you have questions to add to the conversation. If the handbook doesn't say a non-member may do something, does that mean they can't or is it an implication it is a local discretion issue? Thanks for participating. We will have participation trophies! Oh, and we are both 73 years old if that matters.

Can a non-member serve by cleaning?

Can a non-member serve by being in charge of cleaning?

May a non-member sing a solo at a funeral?

May a non-member read the Christmas story in the cultural hall at the Christmas celebration?

May a non-member give an invocation before a ward meal, second hour service, or in a member's home?

May a non-member regularly donate to the fast offering? Have a number from the ward clerk?

Should non-members be counted in sacrament attendance figures?

Should long-term faithful non-members be discouraged or encouraged to take the sacrament?

May a non-member substitute teach a lesson when the teacher is not there and a general authority emeritus is in regular attendance and approves?

May a female married non-member be the second adult required to be in a Primary class as long as the teacher is a member?

May a non-member give a testimony on fast Sunday of what the church means to her?

May a non-member provide a fireside talk for the greater LDS community? For example on the similarities and differences between our local faiths?

May a non-member lead tours of historical sites and provide information regarding the same?

May a non-member serve on the stake or ward history committee?

May a non-member sing a solo on Sunday morning or at the annual Christmas concert? In German?

May non-members provide meals for the missionaries?

May non-members provide bathroom facilities for missionaries who are working in their village?

May non-members regularly take the missionaries back to their apartment when they get "stuck" in that village (a fifteen minute drive)?

May a non-member host and lead the "emptynesters" get together? What happens when the non-member couple wins the annual ward Newlywed game?  Oh My!

May non-members sing in the stake choir?

May they pray at a stake meeting?

May they visit the sick and lonely with a priesthood holder? If so, may they pray (not administer a blessing)?

May they cook meals and take them to members who need help?

I’m not inclined to field any of your questions just now but would like to focus for the moment on your term “faithful non-member.” The term raises questions pertaining to definitions. One could infer from your list of questions what you mean by that term. However, faithfulness within the Church is typically ascertained by an individual’s honest response to the questions in the temple recommend interview. Here is a link to a recent update of those questions:

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/october-2019-general-conference-temple-recommend
 

I reviewed those questions just now with this thread in mind. While it would not surprise me in the least to learn that you comply with many of the points on that list of questions, it occurred to me immediately that some crucial ones would likely be a stumbling block to you. I say that having read some of your past postings and knowing how vigorously you resist doctrines pertaining to the authority that is found exclusively within The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Some of those temple recommend interview questions have direct bearing on one’s acceptance of those doctrines. Ergo, definitions matter as it pertains to the descriptor “faithful” in this context, and for this reason, I’m having a bit of heartburn with the term “faithful non-member” as you are using it here. 
 

I’ll just mention here by way of reminder that I did cite in the other thread passages from the Church’s General Handbook pertaining to assigning of persons to pray in sacrament meetings and to some callings that may be given to non-members. I see that for some reason you have chosen to ignore those citations in this thread, but if you like, I will find and repeat them here. 

Edited December 28, 2022 by Scott Lloyd

[Navidad]

2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I’m not inclined to field any of your questions just now but would like to focus for the moment on your term “faithful non-member.” The term raises questions pertaining to definitions. One could infer from your list of questions what you mean by that term. However, faithfulness within the Church is typically ascertained by an individual’s honest response to the questions in the temple recommend interview. Here is a link to a recent update of those questions:

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/october-2019-general-conference-temple-recommend
 

I reviewed those questions just now with this thread in mind. While it would not surprise me in the least to learn that you comply with many of the points on that list of questions, it occurred to me immediately that some crucial ones would likely be a stumbling block to you. I say that having read some of your past postings and knowing how vigorously you resist doctrines pertaining to the authority that is found exclusively within The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Some of those temple recommend interview questions have direct bearing on one’s acceptance of those doctrines. Ergo, definitions matter as it pertains to the descriptor “faithful” in this context, and for this reason, I’m having a bit of heartburn with the term “faithful non-member” as you are using it here. 
 

I’ll just mention here by way of reminder that I did cite in the other thread passages from the Church’s General Handbook pertaining to assigning of persons to pray in sacrament meetings and to some callings that may be given to non-members. I see that for some reason you have chosen tonignore those citations in this thread, but if you like, I will find and repeat them here. 

Hi Scott: Thanks for your comments. I have discussed the term "faithful non-member" with a lot of folks in the church. It is always an interesting and enlightening conversation. I guess I define "faithful" in our relationship with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as I do with any church to which we have ever attended in our long lives. I tend to see "faithful" in light of service, ministry, consistency, using gifts (of the Holy Spirit), and day to day honoring the Lord and His atonement in our lives. There is great diversity in Evangelical doctrine and lifestyle issues. I do my best to be faithful in adherence to my understanding of those. I am Christian first, Evangelical second, and Mennonite third - a distant third. If I joined the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints I would then be Christian first, Evangelical second, and LDS third - a distant third. In my life I have been non-denominational, Baptist (of several sub-groups), and Mennonite. None of those distinctions are pivotal to my faith. I don't see any subgroup of Christianity as being pivotal. So perhaps I would never be allowed to formally join the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I believe I can be a "faithful" non-member, especially when on a day-to-day basis the idea of faithful is used. We will go and minister to, help, support, donate, use our ministry gifts in the ward as much as any local member I know. We are probably a bit more lifestyle conservative than most members of our ward. Different perhaps, but lifestyle-wise, (Word of Wisdom in actions and deeds) very conservative. No cultural barriers to us participating - maybe green jello and hard snickerdoodles.

I can appreciate your heartburn and I regret causing any distress. What you are feeling may be similar to what I feel about LDS exclusivity. For example, I have no particular issue with being rebaptized to join a church who requires that. I cannot however without heartburn agree to be rebaptized because my previous baptism is invalid or because of the belief that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only church in existence authorized by God to baptize people. I simply do not believe that and can't (or won't) submit to rebaptism based on those two points.

I should probably also say that in my secular work and writings I have written about ranking, onlying, certainty, generalizing, normalizing, and othering as precursors to human conflict. I also believe strongly in matters of faith that the doctrine - dogma - duty - damage continuum is all too real. Anywhere I see that in religious organizations I get heartburn as well.

I didn't mean to ignore your information from the handbook. I guess I just take those things for granted. I have poured through the handbook and understand the things you have pointed to as "rules." However, the sections in the handbook that deal with non-members and non-investigators is extremely limited - extremely. Real life, ministry, and service in a ward are not that limited. The handbook doesn't begin to touch the real life decisions about engagement that we encounter on a week to week basis. It seems to me that the handbook does not anticipate the role of the non-member, non-instigator, and non-investigator in the church on a long-time basis. In fact, the very concept in an LDS environment may be offensive, since a long term faithful member might be seen as a failure to convert, as an approval of those who serve, attend, and worship, but don't join, or that salvific things can happen outside of membership and requisite ordinances. In my life experience those kind of an attendee in a church are not at all uncommon. For example for years I pastored an Evangelical church located very close to a huge IBM installation. We had lots of IBM folks coming to our church with great ministry gifts. They didn't want to join or leave their church "back home" since they would be with us for several years and then transferred somewhere else. We jumped at the opportunity to use their gifts in our church and were grateful for their service while they were there worshiping, fellowshipping, teaching, and learning with us. 

I just went through the new list of questions. I ended up with nine provisional yes answers (some answers required tell me more). Some questions had multiple parts. Some answers I would have to clarify - for example I distinguish between OT and NT prophets. I can't sustain any modern prophets, LDS or not as OT prophets. NT prophets? A hearty yes. I had several answers in the mostly yes categories. I have one no and one probably. Do I believe in restoration? Yes! That is a big part of Mennonite history and culture. Do I believe The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only restorational church? No. Do I believe Erasmus led restoration from within? Yes! I have two answers that I need to understand more about how the question is defined.

I heard once at an MHA conference - I think it was a Jana Reiss talk -but I am not sure, that 30% of members have temple recommends. If that is true, I am unsure what you would say about the other 70%? Are they faithful members? At times over our five years, we have been as or more engaged, involved, and in my mind faithful than some of the members. Yet, the members can pray without seeming regard to day-to-day faithfulness, and we cannot. That is confusing. The handbook doesn't seem to distinguish between faithful and non-faithful members. I guess it makes sense then that it doesn't distinguish between faithful and non-faithful non-members. Take care.
 

[John L]

3 hours ago, Navidad said:

I heard once at an MHA conference - I think it was a Jana Reiss talk -but I am not sure, that 30% of members have temple recommends.

There's around 500 members in my ward and only 120 or so actually attend on a regular basis. Out of the 120 that attend, only about 30% hold a temple recommend. 

[CV75]

15 hours ago, Navidad said:

I am not sure what that means. Help me out!

Just a joke suggesting there's a lot of dos and don'ts!

Edited December 28, 2022 by CV75

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 hour ago, John L said:

Out of the 120 that attend, only about 30% hold a temple recommend. 

I just checked our last quarterly report. If I add together the number of adults currently holding full temple recommends and the number of youth currently holding recommends for baptisms/confirmations, the total equals just over 81 per cent of our average weekly sacrament meeting attendance. (Respectively, adults with recommends are 64 per cent of average attendance, and youth with recommends are 17 per cent.)

Primary-age children (age 3+) marked as attending make up another 13 per cent of average sacrament attendance. These figures suggest that, on a 'typical' Sunday, only about 6 per cent of the people in our sacrament meetings are people who could have a recommend but don't (or are children under age 3) ... though this figure is probably closer to 10-12 per cent because, of course, not all members with recommends are able to attend each week.

Clearly, the overwhelming majority of our active members age 12+ currently hold recommends. I've long believed this to be the case, but it was interesting to check.

Just one more data point.

Edited December 28, 2022 by Hamba Tuhan

[Peacefully]

I have never defined faithful members as those who hold temple recommends. Seems like an exclusionary and arrogant stance. 

[bluebell]

20 minutes ago, Peacefully said:

I have never defined faithful members as those who hold temple recommends. Seems like an exclusionary and arrogant stance. 

Agreed. I would define faithful as those members that attend church each week and are willing to serve however they are able/asked. 

[pogi]

7 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

 However, faithfulness within the Church is typically ascertained by an individual’s honest response to the questions in the temple recommend interview. Here is a link to a recent update of those questions:

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/october-2019-general-conference-temple-recommend

Worthiness, not faithfulness, is typically ascertained by the temple recommend questions.   Faith doesn't require temple worthiness. 

 

Edited December 28, 2022 by pogi

[Navidad]

2 hours ago, pogi said:

Worthiness, not faithfulness, is typically ascertained by the temple recommend questions.   Faith doesn't require temple worthiness. 

 

I think I really like this comment. I find one of the things most interesting about the LDS faith is its emphasis on being worthy. I struggle with that concept. Almost everything in my faith background informs me that we can never be worthy in a spiritual sense. It is Christ's worthiness that grants us salvation and eternal life. I tend to equate righteousness with worthiness. My wife really struggles with and for all the ladies who verbalize their struggle with being worthy enough. In a previous bishopric we had a counselor who regularly taught on grace. He was my wife's favorite sacrament talk-giver. Oh, and he and his wife are coming over this afternoon. It will be nice to see them.

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

Worthiness, not faithfulness, is typically ascertained by the temple recommend questions.   Faith doesn't require temple worthiness. 

 

Having faith and being faithful are not necessarily synonymous — just as having faith and being converted are not necessarily the same thing. 

[pogi]

5 minutes ago, Navidad said:

I think I really like this comment. I find one of the things most interesting about the LDS faith is its emphasis on being worthy. I struggle with that concept. Almost everything in my faith background informs me that we can never be worthy in a spiritual sense. It is Christ's worthiness that grants us salvation and eternal life. I tend to equate righteousness with worthiness. My wife really struggles with and for all the ladies who verbalize their struggle with being worthy enough. In a previous bishopric we had a counselor who regularly taught on grace. He was my wife's favorite sacrament talk-giver. Oh, and he and his wife are coming over this afternoon. It will be nice to see them.

I too struggle with the idea of "worthiness" given the etymology of the word "worthy", being "of worth".  We know that all souls (including sinners) are of great worth in the sight of God.  I just don't like the shame oriented implications of being "unworthy" and wish that we would use a different word.

I do, however, understand why certain standards/pre-requisites need to be met before being admitted for ordinances - but I don't think that should say anything as to our worth.  I know it is just a semantics thing, but the possible implications bother me.   I think you can likely relate to this with faith and repentance as prerequisites to baptism.  I assume that is true in Evangelism also. 

[Amulek]

20 hours ago, Navidad said:

Can a non-member serve by cleaning?

Not in the temple, but for meetinghouses and whatnot - sure. I don't see any problem with that so long as you aren't a lousy cleaner.

 

20 hours ago, Navidad said:

Can a non-member serve by being in charge of cleaning?

For the entire ward? Probably not. The ward building representative is supposed to be a member.

 

20 hours ago, Navidad said:

May a non-member sing in the choir or a solo at a funeral?

In my experience, 'being able to sing' isn't even a requirement for participating in the ward choir, so I don't see why membership would be.

 

20 hours ago, Navidad said:

May a non-member read the Christmas story in the cultural hall at the Christmas celebration?

I mean, they can try. If they run into trouble with any of the big words though, I'm sure a member would be happy to jump in and help them out.

 

20 hours ago, Navidad said:

May a non-member give an invocation before a ward meal, second hour service, or in a member's home?

In a member's home, absolutely. As for other settings which might be properly considered to be "church meetings," I believe that would be a matter left to local leaders' discretion.

 

20 hours ago, Navidad said:

May a non-member regularly donate to the fast offering? Have a number from the ward clerk?

The only people prohibited from donating tithes and offerings are those whose church membership has been withdrawn. Aside from that one restriction, anyone - member or not - may contribute to the church.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "hav[ing] a number from the ward clerk." If you mean a membership number, then the answer is 'no.' You can be setup with a church account as a nonmember (which ought to allow you to make donations online), and you can be added as a donor at the local level as well, but you won't actually be issued a MRN unless (or until) you join the church.

 

20 hours ago, Navidad said:

Should non-members be counted in sacrament attendance figures?

Yes. Sacrament attendance is used (in part) as a proxy for determining budgets, and all people who are attending ought to be taken into account when making those determinations.

 

20 hours ago, Navidad said:

Should long-term faithful non-members be discouraged or encouraged to take the sacrament?

Neither. They can do as they like.

 

20 hours ago, Navidad said:

May a non-member substitute teach a lesson when the teacher is not there?

Too many situational variations for a general rule here, so I'm going to put this one under local leader's discretion as well.

 

20 hours ago, Navidad said:

May a female married non-member be the second adult required to be in a Primary class as long as the teacher is a member?

Well, not in my Primary class - not because she's a non-member, mind you, but because I happen to be a married man. If she were paired with a female adult though, that shouldn't be an issue.

 

20 hours ago, Navidad said:

May a non-member give a testimony on fast Sunday of what the church means to her?

Sure. The invitation to bear testimony (i.e., declaring gospel truths as inspired by the Holy Ghost) is open to all members of the congregation - not just to members of the church.

 

20 hours ago, Navidad said:

May a non-member provide a fireside talk for the greater LDS community? For example on the similarities and differences between our local faiths?

I don't see why not. I've attended firesides which included guest speakers from other faiths.

 

20 hours ago, Navidad said:

May a non-member lead tours of historical sites and provide information regarding the same?

Of course. When I visited the RLDS property in Independence, MO back when I was a teen (and back when they were still the RLDS), the tour and all of the information provided was conducted / provided by non-members. Well, at least they were non-members from our perspective.

 

20 hours ago, Navidad said:

May a non-member serve on the stake or ward history committee?

I don't believe there are any restrictions on who can participate as a history specialist. Ultimately, the responsibility for approving and submitting the history lies with the unit's priesthood leader, but anyone can be called to help with its preparation.

 

20 hours ago, Navidad said:

May a non-member sing a solo on Sunday morning or at the annual Christmas concert? In German?

Well, I was going to say yes...but then you had to throw in "[in] German."

 

20 hours ago, Navidad said:

May non-members provide meals for the missionaries?

Absolutely! Some of the best meals I had on mission were with non-members.

In fact, if I could have convinced non-members to invite us over for every meal, that would have made my job a heck of a lot easier.

 

20 hours ago, Navidad said:

May non-members provide bathroom facilities for missionaries who are working in their village?

Why do all conversations have to end up in the bathroom eventually? I thought you said you were 73, not 7.

 

20 hours ago, Navidad said:

May non-members regularly take the missionaries back to their apartment when they get "stuck" in that village (a fifteen minute drive)?

Again, provided the general rules governing missionary conduct are being followed (e.g., needing another adult of the same gender present when traveling with someone of the opposite gender), then yes - that is perfectly fine. 

 

20 hours ago, Navidad said:

May a non-member host and lead the "emptynesters" get together?

Yes, you are allowed to socialize with members in your own home.

The church doesn't prohibit members from interacting with those not of our faith. In fact, I'm sure the Brethren would be pleased if members did quite a bit more of that sort of thing.

 

20 hours ago, Navidad said:

What happens when the non-member couple wins the annual ward Newlywed game?

No idea. My wife and I would never let that happen.

 

20 hours ago, Navidad said:

May non-members sing in the stake choir?

Again, yes.

The only choir that requires you to be a member in good standing is the Tabernacle Choir.

 

20 hours ago, Navidad said:

May they visit the sick and lonely with a priesthood holder? If so, may they pray (not administer a blessing)?

Yes, and yes.

 

20 hours ago, Navidad said:

May they cook meals and take them to members who need help?

Also yes.

As a general rule, I would say that anything which doesn't involve directly leading or representing the church in an official capacity can be performed by a non-member.

 

[mfbukowski]

22 hours ago, Navidad said:

On another thread we have had some chats about what a non-member may or may not do in a ward or stake. For purposes of the dialogue I am going to use my wife and I as the example and will pose only real life questions that have or might have to be decided regarding our service opportunities in our ward. To clarify, we have been attending the ward faithfully for over five years now. We pretty much attend everything that happens except our ward Temple night. We are in a small community in the boonies of Chihuahua. It is a smallish ward made up of descendants of lots of LDS "royalty."

My wife exudes Godliness, kindness and Biblical knowledge. She and the ladies of our ward are very very close. I exude . . . well I exude . . . well I exude an encyclopedic knowledge of LDS and general Mormon history. I talk a lot (what a surprise!), minored in vocal performance in college, and was ordained by my denomination for my gifts in speaking, counseling, and helps. Oh, and did I mention I can talk about the Allreds for hours when they come down here for a reunion! Here I go with the questions - again each one has really happened, or may happen in the future. Oh, and my wife and I have spoken with each of the three bishops over the five years that we are voluntarily placing ourselves under his spiritual authority as the spiritual leader of the church we attend. We feel that is very important to do if we are going to regularly attend.

I am limiting my questions to ward and stake potentials. I have been active in MHA for longer than I have been in the ward. There do not seem to be issues with most MHA members with having non-LDS historians be active there. I have been entertained by well-known Mormon historians on several occasions, and probably have given it back as well as I have taken it - especially the stories. "Hey did you hear the one about the night Isaac Haight (under an assumed name) got into a fight at Turley Camp with George Calvin Williams, a Baptist preacher convert from northwest Arkansas? Here we go . . .

Oh, and I hope this will be two parts serious for every two parts fun. I will ask the questions without telling you how each one was decided. I am sure there are many more questions that have come up over the five years or may come up in the future. Maybe some of you have questions or comments to add to the conversation. If the handbook doesn't say a non-member may do something, does that mean they can't or is it an implication it is a local discretion issue? Or is it something that simply hasn't been contemplated? Thanks for participating. We will have participation trophies! Oh, and we are both 73 years old if that matters.

Can a non-member serve by cleaning?

Can a non-member serve by being in charge of cleaning?

May a non-member sing in the choir or a solo at a funeral?

May a non-member read the Christmas story in the cultural hall at the Christmas celebration?

May a non-member give an invocation before a ward meal, second hour service, or in a member's home?

May a non-member regularly donate to the fast offering? Have a number from the ward clerk?

Should non-members be counted in sacrament attendance figures?

Should long-term faithful non-members be discouraged or encouraged to take the sacrament?

May a non-member substitute teach a lesson when the teacher is not there?

May a female married non-member be the second adult required to be in a Primary class as long as the teacher is a member?

May a non-member give a testimony on fast Sunday of what the church means to her?

May a non-member provide a fireside talk for the greater LDS community? For example on the similarities and differences between our local faiths?

May a non-member lead tours of historical sites and provide information regarding the same?

May a non-member serve on the stake or ward history committee?

May a non-member sing a solo on Sunday morning or at the annual Christmas concert? In German?

May non-members provide meals for the missionaries?

May non-members provide bathroom facilities for missionaries who are working in their village?

May non-members regularly take the missionaries back to their apartment when they get "stuck" in that village (a fifteen minute drive)?

May a non-member host and lead the "emptynesters" get together? What happens when the non-member couple wins the annual ward Newlywed game?  Oh My!

May non-members sing in the stake choir?

May they visit the sick and lonely with a priesthood holder? If so, may they pray (not administer a blessing)?

May they cook meals and take them to members who need help?

I would think these are simply wonderful, wonderful people to do all this, but why are they doing it for a congregation that disagrees with their own beliefs, and spending all that time and effort for others (LDS) who would gladly convert and baptize their own congregation (Mennonites) in one minute flat?

To me, it is like getting paid by Walmart (Mennonites) while you are putting in hours of your time working for Target (LDS).

I love your posts, and what you do for our church, but my question is WHY?  

[mfbukowski]

Duplicate

Edited December 28, 2022 by mfbukowski

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, Amulek said:

Too many situational variations for a general rule here, so I'm going to put this one under local leader's discretion as well.

[On a non-member substitute-teaching a class.]
 

I’ll have to disagree here, based on General Handbook content:

“Callings for Those Who Are Not Members

“People who are not members of the Church may be called to some positions, such as organist, music director, or a calling to help plan activities. However, they should not be called as teachers, as quorum or organization presidency members, or as Primary music leaders.
“A person whose membership has been formally restricted or has been withdrawn may not have a calling (see 32.11.3 and 32.11.4).” 

Hence, I think there is a general rule here, not just local discretion. And I think it would apply to any ecclesiastical teaching role, including substitute ones. 

 

 

Edited December 28, 2022 by Scott Lloyd

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Amulek said:

Not in the temple, but for meetinghouses and whatnot - sure. I don't see any problem with that so long as you aren't a lousy cleaner.

 

For the entire ward? Probably not. The ward building representative is supposed to be a member.

 

In my experience, 'being able to sing' isn't even a requirement for participating in the ward choir, so I don't see why membership would be.

 

I mean, they can try. If they run into trouble with any of the big words though, I'm sure a member would be happy to jump in and help them out.

 

In a member's home, absolutely. As for other settings which might be properly considered to be "church meetings," I believe that would be a matter left to local leaders' discretion.

 

The only people prohibited from donating tithes and offerings are those whose church membership has been withdrawn. Aside from that one restriction, anyone - member or not - may contribute to the church.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "hav[ing] a number from the ward clerk." If you mean a membership number, then the answer is 'no.' You can be setup with a church account as a nonmember (which ought to allow you to make donations online), and you can be added as a donor at the local level as well, but you won't actually be issued a MRN unless (or until) you join the church.

 

Yes. Sacrament attendance is used (in part) as a proxy for determining budgets, and all people who are attending ought to be taken into account when making those determinations.

 

Neither. They can do as they like.

 

Too many situational variations for a general rule here, so I'm going to put this one under local leader's discretion as well.

 

Well, not in my Primary class - not because she's a non-member, mind you, but because I happen to be a married man. If she were paired with a female adult though, that shouldn't be an issue.

 

Sure. The invitation to bear testimony (i.e., declaring gospel truths as inspired by the Holy Ghost) is open to all members of the congregation - not just to members of the church.

 

I don't see why not. I've attended firesides which included guest speakers from other faiths.

 

Of course. When I visited the RLDS property in Independence, MO back when I was a teen (and back when they were still the RLDS), the tour and all of the information provided was conducted / provided by non-members. Well, at least they were non-members from our perspective.

 

I don't believe there are any restrictions on who can participate as a history specialist. Ultimately, the responsibility for approving and submitting the history lies with the unit's priesthood leader, but anyone can be called to help with its preparation.

 

Well, I was going to say yes...but then you had to throw in "[in] German."

 

Absolutely! Some of the best meals I had on mission were with non-members.

In fact, if I could have convinced non-members to invite us over for every meal, that would have made my job a heck of a lot easier.

 

Why do all conversations have to end up in the bathroom eventually? I thought you said you were 73, not 7.

 

Again, provided the general rules governing missionary conduct are being followed (e.g., needing another adult of the same gender present when traveling with someone of the opposite gender), then yes - that is perfectly fine. 

 

Yes, you are allowed to socialize with members in your own home.

The church doesn't prohibit members from interacting with those not of our faith. In fact, I'm sure the Brethren would be pleased if members did quite a bit more of that sort of thing.

 

No idea. My wife and I would never let that happen.

 

Again, yes.

The only choir that requires you to be a member in good standing is the Tabernacle Choir.

 

Yes, and yes.

 

Also yes.

As a general rule, I would say that anything which doesn't involve directly leading or representing the church in an official capacity can be performed by a non-member.

 

None of these answers are based on Handbook instructions - correct me if I am wrong.

The Handbook is readily available online.

I wonder why people ask questions which are directly available with a little research, from "the horses mouth".

[Bernard Gui]

I have answers, but my internet service is down right now. Some answers have to do with callings, some with bishop or SP discretion, some are common sense.

I get a very rare chance to use one of my favorite words:

It would appear you desire the usufruct of LDS Church membership.

[Scott Lloyd]

42 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

I have answers, but my internet service is down right now. Some answers have to do with callings, some with bishop or SP discretion, some are common sense.

I get a very rare chance to use one of my favorite words:

It would appear you desire the usufruct of LDS Church membership.

That’s actually a fairly apt application of the word. One who has usufrukt of a piece of property presumably would not be entitled to alter said property in any way. Similarly, a non-member who enjoys certain limited de facto privileges of participation in the Church would not be entitled to materially alter the Church, as for example pressuring or lobbying for alteration in its doctrinal structure, principles, teachings, public stances, etc. 

Edited December 28, 2022 by Scott Lloyd