Missionaries' "Nope" Response to Lesbian Doormat

[Vanguard]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

As I’ve considered this, I’ve concluded that the right course of action could be dependent on variable circumstances in individual cases. In general, it’s best to proffer the invitation and let the recipient decide to accept or reject, but circumstances — including guidance “in the very moment” from the Holy Ghost — might direct otherwise. Ergo, the missionaries should not be faulted by those of us who are not privy to the circumstances that might have prompted their behavior. 

Completely agree. I would say 'all else being equal' the better policy is to share the message. But then again, when are all other possibilities ever equal? ; ) Not knowing the Elders' circumstances, I refrain from any judgment. : )

[Calm]

2 hours ago, edvantageous said:

 

I like the modified sunstone with the sunglasses that mormonR uses as its logo and what Josh Coates is doing in general.

 

Thanks for posting the article.  I am loving mormonr from what I have seen of it so far.

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Analytics said:

Yes. I have some tolerance for telling Catholics they are in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity because they believe in infant baptism. If they are convinced, they could realign their religious beliefs without too much difficulty. But arguing that a happy family should be broken up to "repent" of homosexual behavior? No way.

How wonderful it is that you believe that gay folks should not be harrassed for their lifestyles and treated as individuals without stereotyping them and letting them live in peace.

Unfortunately you need to learn how to apply that same approach to religious people.

And no, please don't group all of us together as a stereotype claiming that your behavior shows "intellectual integrity" that apparently we don't have. 

The contradiction shines like a neon sign in a dark night in the desert 

It's not very "analytical".

Edited September 8, 2022 by mfbukowski

[CV75]

What I like about this Tik-Tok is that it could inspire an entire Benny Hill skit, fast-motion and yakety sax music included.

Edited September 8, 2022 by CV75

[manol]

22 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

... we've been on the Jehovah's Witness' rotation for almost two decades now...

For whatever reason, they keep coming back every other year or so.  They always look pained, like they're expecting an argument, or like they're visiting a cancer patient, or something.  Not sure what is behind their expressions.  But the visits are always friendly.

Back in the late 1970's a pair of Jehovah's Witnesses stopped by our house.  We spoke at the door, and I let them know we were Mormons.  Instead of being confrontational, they shared their thoughts on how much we all had to be grateful for in the beauty of nature that God had created. 

This wasn't necessarily the deepest of spiritual messages on the surface, but underneath the surface maybe it was:  She was creating as much peace and harmony and brotherhood/sisterhood as she could under the circumstances.  And even after all these years I remember that brief conversation far better than I remember countless longer conversations where the focus seemed to be on "winning".  She did the best she could, and were our roles to be reversed, I doubt that I could have done better.

[Hamba Tuhan]

My parents had a rule that anyone who came to our home with a message would be invited in, treated with kindness, and listened to, whether religious, political, or something else. This is why the Bhagavad Gita was the first book of scripture I ever read. My dad had purchased it from Hindu missionaries, and as a child, I was intrigued by the illustrations.

I have continued that rule in my own life to much pleasure. There is zero harm in being kind to and listening to well-intentioned others, and often there is great satisfaction. I'm always eager to see what someone can offer me, and I love that Latter-day prophets have repeatedly taught us to accept truth from any and all sources.

Sadly, the last religious person who came to my door got very angry at something I said and, trembling with rage/indignation, told me that God would destroy me. Needless to say, I didn't get much from that interaction.

My goal as a missionary was always to leave people feeling they had been treated with kindness and respect. Mercifully, I served in a Godless corner of America where people had zero fear of us and therefore treated us politely. I can literally count on the fingers of one hand the number of times anyone was rude to me as a missionary.

[Analytics]

23 hours ago, smac97 said:

And nobody is telling you to not post here, despite your apparent "rudeness."

This doesn't do much to bolster your street cred to tut-tut others about "rudeness."

Perhaps "rudeness" isn't the prefect word for the idea I'm trying to convey. Knocking on somebody's door to tell them the "good news" that their religious views are wrong and yours are right is intrusive. Egotistical. Arrogant. The fact that you were put off by me bluntly telling you some of my own beliefs illustrates the point. 

23 hours ago, smac97 said:

Missionaries aren't supposed to "argue."  And the choice is totally up to them.

I presume missionaries are still supposed to invite people to read the Book of Mormon, right? In the Book of Mormon, Moroni argues that people who believe in infant baptism are "in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity." Charming.

23 hours ago, smac97 said:

And your example of eschewing "rudeness" continues to not impress.  Emily Post you ain't.  

I'm not a paragon of politeness. Sure. But even I don't go so far as to knock on strangers doors to tell them about my religious beliefs.

In any event, I'll restate my interpretation of that video. I think the missionary had a moment of honest clarity and knew he had absolutely nothing to offer the residents of that house. Saying "nope" and walking away was the right thing to do.

 

[smac97]

14 minutes ago, Analytics said:

Perhaps "rudeness" isn't the prefect word for the idea I'm trying to convey. Knocking on somebody's door to tell them the "good news" that their religious views are wrong and yours are right is 

"Analytics coming to this board and telling us that his views are right and ours are wrong is intrusive.  Egotistical.  Arrogant."

Man, this bald assertion stuff is easy.

The point remains, however.  Nobody is telling you to not post here, despite your apparent "intrusiveness," "egotism" and "arrogance."

14 minutes ago, Analytics said:

The fact that you were put off by me bluntly telling you some of my own beliefs illustrates the point. 

The "point" being . . . what?  A double standard?  That it's hunky-dory for you to "tell" us about your "beliefs," but when we do this, it is "intrusiveness," "egotism" and "arrogance"?

 

14 minutes ago, Analytics said:

I presume missionaries are still supposed to invite people to read the Book of Mormon, right? In the Book of Mormon, Moroni argues that people who believe in infant baptism are "in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity." Charming.

Oh, the irony.

14 minutes ago, Analytics said:

I'm not a paragon of politeness. Sure. But even I don't go so far as to knock on strangers doors to tell them about my religious beliefs.

No.  You just spend years, thousands of posts, and likely hundreds and hundreds of hours coming here to share your beliefs (which just happen to frequently involve denigrating ours).

14 minutes ago, Analytics said:

In any event, I'll restate my interpretation of that video. I think the missionary had a moment of honest clarity and knew he had absolutely nothing to offer the residents of that house.

And he would have been wrong in that. 

Also, gotta love how you characterize your cynical "interpretation" as "a moment of honest clarity."

Meanwhile, all sorts of people in this thread, such as Hamba, have stated that they would have knocked on the door because we do have something "to offer the residents of that house."

Thanks,

-Smac

[jkwilliams]

3 minutes ago, smac97 said:

"Analytics coming to this board and telling us that his views are right and ours are wrong is intrusive.  Egotistical.  Arrogant."

Man, this bald assertion stuff is easy.

The point remains, however.  Nobody is telling you to not post here, despite your apparent "intrusiveness," "egotism" and "arrogance."

That's not a very good comparison. This board is specifically set up for people to discuss Mormonism. That's not the case for a private residence. Is "tracting" egotistical or arrogant? I don't think so, but it definitely is intrusive. It's designed to be. That's why it's not very effective as a means of sharing religious beliefs. 

[HappyJackWagon]

It's a funny video. I've seen it a few times and it still makes me chuckle.

I don't think they were being disrespectful though I can see why some may take it that way. Missionaries choose all the time which doors they should knock and which ones they should skip. Maybe they see a decal or a bumper sticker that makes them think it will be an uphill battle. Maybe it's a mean looking dog. Maybe it's a doormat that causes them to feel and then listen to the spirit to turn around.

Truth is, the church doesn't have much to offer people in the LGBTQ community and I think the missionaries knew that.

[Analytics]

 

25 minutes ago, smac97 said:

"Analytics coming to this board and telling us that his views are right and ours are wrong is intrusive.  Egotistical.  Arrogant."

Man, this bald assertion stuff is easy.

Knocking on a stranger's door to tell them that their religious beliefs are wrong and that yours are right is intrusive and off-putting. There is a reason missionaries receive exceedingly few warm receptions when they knock on strangers' doors. 

In contrast, I didn't knock on a stranger's door to talk about this video. Rather, you made an open ended question about it in a public forum.

Answering a question in a discussion forum is fundamentally different that approaching strangers to tell them about your religion.

What you are doing is easy. Sure. In contrast, critical thinking is hard.

[smac97]

23 minutes ago, Analytics said:

Quote

 

"Analytics coming to this board and telling us that his views are right and ours are wrong is intrusive.  Egotistical.  Arrogant."

Man, this bald assertion stuff is easy.

 

Knocking on a stranger's door to tell them that their religious beliefs are wrong and that yours are right is intrusive and off-putting.

"Analytics coming to this board and telling us that our religious beliefs/perspectives are wrong and his are right is intrusive and off-putting."

Man, this bald assertion stuff is easy.

23 minutes ago, Analytics said:

There is a reason missionaries receive exceedingly few warm receptions when they knock on strangers' doors. 

It's an exceedingly easy thing to say "no, thanks."  Missionaries are overwhelmingly polite.

It's kinda weird that you are so energetically and vociferously opposed to two missionaries knocking on a door.  "Intrusive."  "Egotistical."  "Arrogant."  "Off-putting."

Meanwhile, you have spent untold hours and thousands of posts coming here to tell us how our religious beliefs/perspectives are wrong and yours are right.  But it's okay with you do it. 

23 minutes ago, Analytics said:

In contrast, I didn't knock on a stranger's door to talk about this video. Rather, you made an open ended question about it in a public forum.

Answering a question in a discussion forum is fundamentally different that approaching strangers to tell them about your religion.

It is not.  

Thanks,

-Smac

[smac97]

50 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

That's not a very good comparison. This board is specifically set up for people to discuss Mormonism.  That's not the case for a private residence.

A distinction without a difference.

50 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Is "tracting" egotistical or arrogant? I don't think so, but it definitely is intrusive. It's designed to be. That's why it's not very effective as a means of sharing religious beliefs. 

Agreed.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Calm]

2 minutes ago, smac97 said:

A distinction without a difference.

Thanks,

-Smac

There is a huge difference between a public message board intended for dialogue and a private home where once the door is shut many look on it as a refuge from others intruding into their lives, which includes talking to them unsolicited.   I cannot see how you can say it is a distinction without a difference. 

Edited September 9, 2022 by Calm

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, smac97 said:

"Analytics coming to this board and telling us that our religious beliefs/perspectives are wrong and his are right is intrusive and off-putting."

Man, this bald assertion stuff is easy.

It's an exceedingly easy thing to say "no, thanks."  Missionaries are overwhelmingly polite.

It's kinda weird that you are so energetically and vociferously opposed to two missionaries knocking on a door.  "Intrusive."  "Egotistical."  "Arrogant."  "Off-putting."

Meanwhile, you have spent untold hours and thousands of posts coming here to tell us how our religious beliefs/perspectives are wrong and yours are right.  But it's okay with you do it. 

It is not.  

Thanks,

-Smac

Big difference: you started this thread and invited comment, presumably including from people like me and Analytics who don't share your opinions. Missionaries out tracting are clearly not invited to knock on people's doors and interrupt them. Reminds me of the time my son and I were watching the final game of the Stanley Cup finals, in which our beloved Capitals were about to win the series. With just a couple of minutes left in the third period, we were interrupted by a knock on the door. It was the elders quorum presidency. I didn't feel like I could turn them away, so I missed the end of the game, and my son watched it in another room. I was annoyed because they could easily have called and made an appointment to visit. So, yes, it's intrusive to cold-knock on someone's door without an invitation. 

[jkwilliams]

3 minutes ago, smac97 said:

A distinction without a difference.

A private residence does not advertise itself as a place where all can come to discuss their religious beliefs whenever someone wants to interrupt the inhabitants. I don't know how you can with a straight face claim this place is no different. Sheesh. Knocking doors is the least productive use of missionaries' time for a reason. 

[Teancum]

On 9/7/2022 at 6:19 PM, Jim Dandy said:

Opinions vary on this issue as well as on all other issues.  Leaving a bad religion for a better one should be encouraged by everyone for everyone.

And who are you or whose a Latter day Saint to say their religion is a better one and the one they are trying to get people to leave is a bad one.  Of course the hubris is on  the Latter day Saint since they claim is theirs is the only true and living church.  Don't get angry though when non believing LDS apostates think leaving the LDS CHurch is a good thing because it is leaving a bad religion.

[Teancum]

On 9/7/2022 at 6:56 PM, smac97 said:

With respect, I disagree.  I don't think that is anything close to being self-evident.

"Rude" is very much an "eye of the beholder" sort of thing.  You regularly come to this board and disparage our faith to our faces.  I suppose that could be construed as "rude," but that's too much of a subjective judgment call to take seriously.

I can guarantee you, most people think that those of other religions knocking  on their door to convert them is rude. So yea, it is self evident.

 

[Teancum]

On 9/7/2022 at 6:56 PM, smac97 said:

You regularly come to this board and disparage our faith to our faces.  I suppose that could be construed as "rude," but that's too much of a subjective judgment call to take seriously.

Difference is this is a discussion board about Mormonism where I believe critics are able and welcome to post here so long as they keep the rules.  So we do not come totally univited,

[InCognitus]

2 hours ago, Analytics said:

Knocking on somebody's door to tell them the "good news" that their religious views are wrong and yours are right is intrusive. Egotistical. Arrogant.

"Good news" is good news.  I don't know of any church approved missionary training or personal experience with missionary work where the Church has instructed anyone to tell other people their religious views are "wrong" and ours are right.  In a door approach, there is typically no knowledge of the person's religious views, or if they have any at all.  So how would we know if what they believe is "wrong"? 

We take the positive approach.  As President Gordon B. Hinckley put it:  “Let me say that we appreciate the truth in all churches and the good which they do. We say to the people, in effect, you bring with you all the good that you have, and then let us see if we can add to it. That is the spirit of this work. That is the essence of our missionary service”

[Teancum]

On 9/7/2022 at 7:04 PM, Jim Dandy said:

Bad religion = false religion.

Think of it that way.  Or at least think that I think of it that way.

True and false is in the eye of the believer.

[smac97]

1 minute ago, Teancum said:

True and false is in the eye of the believer.

So is the "rudeness" of knocking on a door.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Calm]

11 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Difference is this is a discussion board about Mormonism where I believe critics are able and welcome to post here so long as they keep the rules.  So we do not come totally univited…

Now if a private home had a sign mounted on the door saying “people of all faiths are welcome [inside] to engage in substantive and civil discussion about topics related to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and Mormonism in general”***, I would see that as a valid comparison, but I have yet to see or have heard of a home like that.

***https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/66539-board-guidelines-update-please-review-before-posting/

 

Edited September 9, 2022 by Calm

[Teancum]

On 9/8/2022 at 11:49 AM, mfbukowski said:

I always ask them how they know the bible is true, since there is no more revelation and it was put together by men.  They usually answer that it is true because it says it is.

Sort of like anyone, Latter day Saints included.  Latter day Saints say-I know it is true because I think God tells me it is.

[Analytics]

2 hours ago, smac97 said:

"Analytics coming to this board and telling us that our religious beliefs/perspectives are wrong and his are right is intrusive and off-putting."

If you don't want to hear my point of view, don't ask me questions.

2 hours ago, smac97 said:

It's kinda weird that you are so energetically and vociferously opposed to two missionaries knocking on a door.  "Intrusive."  "Egotistical."  "Arrogant."  "Off-putting."

I'm not opposed to two missionaries knocking on a door. I'm merely answering your questions and explaining my point of view. If you wouldn't have asked, I wouldn't have said anything about it. 

2 hours ago, smac97 said:

Meanwhile, you have spent untold hours and thousands of posts coming here to tell us how our religious beliefs/perspectives are wrong and yours are right.  But it's okay with you do it. 

Engaging in on-topic discussions in a forum where people go to discuss those topics is inherently different than knocking on strangers' doors to preach your religion to them. I never go around approaching strangers to tell them about my religious beliefs. I never broach the subject of religion with friends, family members, or acquaintances. When people ask me about my religious beliefs (or my past religious beliefs), I am hesitant to answer, and generally try to change the subject. 

Allow me to remind you about the board rules:

BANNED TOPICS include but are not limited to:
• Proselyting, witnessing or other one sided posts intended to preach not discuss

I think this rule makes sense, and is in alignment with my sensibilities regarding proselytizing being intrusive, arrogant, and off-putting.

I don't come here to proselytize. I come here to discuss, because that is the very purpose of the forum.

Edited September 9, 2022 by Analytics