Missionaries' "Nope" Response to Lesbian Doormat

[Navidad]

11 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

What other side is there? 😉

Well, there is the conservative side of the conservative side! In both your and my faith we deem them as Fundamentalists. They may believe they have greater and more accurate truth than the mainstream or even conservative side of our respective faiths. Then there is the liberal side of both of our faiths - some academics, progressives who are sometimes deemed post-modernists (rejected traditional interpretations) who would enjoy, to one degree or another taking our faiths to the progressive side of orthodoxy - in my faith they may be deemed "neoorthodox." I have definitely met some of them from within the LDS faith in MHA gatherings. Some of the best and brightest minds fall into that camp (in my faith) and perhaps in yours.

Of course, then there is the right (correct) side - which is composed of those who are enlightened enough to agree with me! 🙃

[Navidad]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

Thanks. If you have the time and interest, here are the instructions to bishops from our General Handbook.

 

Thanks for the info. I have often wondered to what extent these kinds of instructions are more rules or guidelines? In a different culture (LDS and otherwise) where I live, I think they are interpreted more as guidelines within which local leaders have discretion. Hence, I think my wife and I have been involved in perhaps more ministry as non-members than we might be in a different LDS ward or culture. Maybe not! I think there may be more variances tolerated in other Christian groups than in the LDS church, yet I do believe culture must play a role that in some cases may transcend strict doctrinal interpretations, even in the LDS gemeinde.

[Bernard Gui]

22 hours ago, Navidad said:

Well, there is the conservative side of the conservative side! In both your and my faith we deem them as Fundamentalists. They may believe they have greater and more accurate truth than the mainstream or even conservative side of our respective faiths. Then there is the liberal side of both of our faiths - some academics, progressives who are sometimes deemed post-modernists (rejected traditional interpretations) who would enjoy, to one degree or another taking our faiths to the progressive side of orthodoxy - in my faith they may be deemed "neoorthodox." I have definitely met some of them from within the LDS faith in MHA gatherings. Some of the best and brightest minds fall into that camp (in my faith) and perhaps in yours.
 

And some don’t fall into that camp. What is more important is where their minds fall in relation to Gods will.

Quote

Of course, then there is the right (correct) side - which is composed of those who are enlightened enough to agree with me! 🙃 

That is indisputable.

[mfbukowski]

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Edited September 13, 2022 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

23 hours ago, Navidad said:

Thanks for the info. I have often wondered to what extent these kinds of instructions are more rules or guidelines? In a different culture (LDS and otherwise) where I live, I think they are interpreted more as guidelines within which local leaders have discretion. Hence, I think my wife and I have been involved in perhaps more ministry as non-members than we might be in a different LDS ward or culture. Maybe not! I think there may be more variances tolerated in other Christian groups than in the LDS church, yet I do believe culture must play a role that in some cases may transcend strict doctrinal interpretations, even in the LDS gemeinde.

As a former bishop, they are rules, unless they are clearly stated or implied to be guidelines.

Frankly that is why some of the things you say about your ward, frankly, I find shocking.   Simply non-members speaking in sacrament meeting, is something we don't do.

Even if we are having a guest speaker- unless know to be a member like a general authority or temple president- speaking, they should either have a temple reccommend or a recomendation from their bishop "clearing" them as  a member in good standing.  That's even true for outside bretheren standing in a circle to bless a baby, etc.

But to regularly have a non-member speak or minister?   No-no! 

I have wanted to mention that for a while but since you raised the question, I think it was a fair time to mention it.

Anybody see it differently?

 

Edited September 13, 2022 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

23 hours ago, Navidad said:

Some of the best and brightest minds fall into that camp (in my faith) and perhaps in yours.

Of course, and thank you.  😇 

 

[Rain]

8 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

As a former bishop, they are rules, unless they are clearly stated or implied to be guidelines.

Frankly that is why some of the things you say about your ward, frankly, I find shocking.   Simply non-members speaking in sacrament meeting, is something we don't do.

Even if we are having a guest speaker- unless know to be a member like a general authority or temple president- speaking, they should either have a temple reccommend or a recomendation from their bishop "clearing" them as  a member in good standing. 

I have heard that someone not in good standing shouldn't speak, but not about someone who isn't a member.  Is that in the handbook?

Now I also have heard that we should only speak about things that are doctrinally true and if not that the bishop should correct that, but over the years I have heard a lot of things that are not doctrinally true and I've never once heard it corrected.

8 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

That's even true for outside bretheren standing in a circle to bless a baby, etc.

That I have heard, but that is also supposed to take priesthood ordination.

8 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

But to regularly have a non-member speak or minister?   No-no! 

I have wanted to mention that for a while but since you raised the question, I think it was a fair time to mention it.

Anybody see it differently?

 

I know that when men receive the priesthood they are called to do ministering.  It is a priesthood duty.  But is there actually anything that says you have to be ordained or be a member to do it?

Edited September 13, 2022 by Rain

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

I have heard that someone not in good shouldn't speak, but not about someone who isn't a member.  Is that in the handbook.

Now I also have heard that we should only speak about things that are doctrinally true and if not that the bishop should correct that, but over the years I have heard a lot of things that are not doctrinally true and I've never once heard it corrected.

That I have heard, but that is also supposed to take priesthood ordination.

I know that when men receive the priesthood they are called to do ministering.  It is a priesthood duty.  But is there actually anything that says you have to be ordained or be a member to do it?

Quote

29.2.1.4
Selecting Speakers

The bishopric selects speakers for sacrament meeting. Most often they invite ward members, including youth (see 38.8.18). The stake president may assign high councilors or members of stake organization presidencies to speak. The stake president determines the frequency of such assignments.
The bishopric extends invitations to speak well in advance of the meeting. Speakers bear testimony of Jesus Christ and teach His gospel using the scriptures (see Doctrine and Covenants 42:12; 52:9). Messages should build faith and be consistent with the sacred nature of the sacrament.

Quote

38.8.18
Guest Speakers or Instructors
For most Church meetings and activities, speakers and instructors should belong to the local ward or stake.
A guest speaker or instructor is someone who does not belong to the ward or stake. The bishop’s approval is required before a guest speaker is invited to a ward meeting or activity. The stake president’s approval is required to invite guest speakers to stake meetings or activities.
The bishop or stake president carefully screens guest speakers or instructors. This may include contacting the person’s bishop.
The bishop or stake president ensures that:
The presentation is in harmony with Church doctrine.
The presentation does not include speculative topics (topics should be consistent with those addressed in general conference).
Guest speakers or instructors are not paid a fee, do not recruit participants, and do not solicit customers or clients.
The person’s travel expenses are not paid either with local unit budget funds or by private contributions.
Presentations comply with the guidelines for using Church facilities 

 

[Navidad]

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Anybody see it differently?

You have mentioned that your personal experiences validate and confirm your beliefs. Is that not correct? Therefore since my personal experiences are different than what you suggest as far as participation in ministry in our ward, I guess I would have to say I see it differently. On the other point that someone mentioned about doctrinal correctness, both my wife and I have submitted our talks to the bishop prior to speaking. We carefully worded our talks to make as sure as we knew not to include anything doctrinally incorrect from the LDS perspective.  He never changed a word prior to giving his approval. There is a wide wide world of things that could be said in a Sacrament talk that would conform to both LDS doctrine and my own. I enjoy focusing on that breadth.

I suppose it is impossible to have prayers pre-approved,  but ditto for that. I would certainly do my best to never say anything in a prayer that would be contrary to LDS doctrine. Someone somewhere once told me she was impressed that I could pray "in Mormon." I thought that was an interesting comment. Both my wife and I have given testimonies on Fast Sundays many times. Ditto for those talks. Why would we be so dumb and insensitive to say something that we knew to be contrary to LDS doctrine? Just to summarize, I have never felt restricted in putting together a talk or giving a spontaneous prayer in Sunday School, EQ, a Christmas program, a Sacrament, or a Fireside. There is a wideness in God's mercy as well as a wideness in the doctrines we hold in common. It is quite common for me to speak to reunions when the folks come down here to get together. Ditto for those. Ditto for teaching adult Sunday School when the regular teacher was absent.

Last, we have attended the ward through three bishops. We have ministered as stated above under two of them. The most recent bishop has not asked us to do anything in his several months in the position. Perhaps he never will. That just speaks to me of the apparent local discretion, perhaps provided by the stake president who has been the same person since we started attending back in 2017. Neither of the three has suggested to us that we should not take the sacrament or testify. We have done that under all three. As I have mentioned before here in the forum, we have clearly told the first two that we have voluntarily placed ourselves under their spiritual authority as pastors of the church we have chosen to attend. Neither had any objection to that.

I have pulled away from the extent of my participation in MHA. From my perspective, it is not the same organization today as it was when I joined it some years ago. Perhaps in that context, I am too conservative! 😀

So, all of that is my personal experience, and how I see it, based on those experiences.

[Stargazer]

On 9/6/2022 at 10:56 PM, smac97 said:

Two questions:

1. Do you think the missionaries should have knocked on the door?

Yep.

Lesbian or Muslim or Hindu or cat burglar, everyone deserves their door knocked. 

On 9/6/2022 at 10:56 PM, smac97 said:

2. Do you think the missionaries "walked away out of respect?"

Maybe. Also possible is that they thought there wasn't a point.

On 9/6/2022 at 10:56 PM, smac97 said:

Thanks,

-Smac

You're welcome!

 

[Stargazer]

On 9/6/2022 at 11:59 PM, MustardSeed said:

Why would they?  Why would a lesbian couple want to join the church? What would be the point?  

What if the couple were straight but living in sin? Or a single guy or girl who ran an online porn business?

What if they (gasp!) drank coffee?

Could a Lesbian gain a testimony of the Church and desire baptism? Could a hetero Catholic want to become a celibate priest or become a nun? Of course.

On 9/6/2022 at 11:59 PM, MustardSeed said:

I see no problem here. 

In a way, neither do I. For all I know the Spirit whispered to them, "Pass this one by."

Who am I to judge.

[Stargazer]

On 9/8/2022 at 2:18 AM, LoudmouthMormon said:

As far as missionaries go, we've been on the Jehovah's Witness' rotation for almost two decades now.  When they stopped by for the first time in the 2000's, I was friendly, and complimented them heartily on the cool artwork I always found in the Watchtower. (Nobody, and I mean nobody, draws a "whore of babylon riding the multiheaded dragon beast" as well as they do.)  I was also totally transparent about being LDS.  They invited me to read the Bible, and I mentioned we were half a year into our yearlong study of the Old Testament.  They basically argued with me about how I couldn't be, because Mormons don't study the Bible.  But we parted on friendly terms.

For whatever reason, they keep coming back every other year or so.  They always look pained, like they're expecting an argument, or like they're visiting a cancer patient, or something.  Not sure what is behind their expressions.  But the visits are always friendly.

Outside of teaching someone who was progressing in the gospel towards baptism, my favorite mission experiences were with the Jay-Dubs. When tracting, one could usually count on being able to have a discussion about the gospel, even if it was pointless in the end. Nowadays I always give the JWs standing on the street displaying their Watchtowers a cordial nod. In my last city, our apartment was a couple of rooms in a private home owned by a JW couple. I don't know if they got chaff from the local Kingdom Hall about it, but as incongruous as it was, they were lovely people and I came to love them. This was back in the day when missionaries in Germany didn't have phones and we had to call the mission office weekly from a telephone booth to submit reports, so when President Harold B. Lee passed away, they noticed this in the newspaper and brought it to our attention so we would know.

[Stargazer]

On 9/8/2022 at 3:32 PM, edvantageous said:

I like the modified sunstone with the sunglasses that mormonR uses as its logo and what Josh Coates is doing in general.

I burst out laughing at the mormonR motto: "Your calling and election made okay."

Never heard of this before, so thanks for posting it.

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Navidad said:

You have mentioned that your personal experiences validate and confirm your beliefs. Is that not correct? Therefore since my personal experiences are different than what you suggest as far as participation in ministry in our ward, I guess I would have to say I see it differently. On the other point that someone mentioned about doctrinal correctness, both my wife and I have submitted our talks to the bishop prior to speaking. We carefully worded our talks to make as sure as we knew not to include anything doctrinally incorrect from the LDS perspective.  He never changed a word prior to giving his approval. There is a wide wide world of things that could be said in a Sacrament talk that would conform to both LDS doctrine and my own. I enjoy focusing on that breadth.

I suppose it is impossible to have prayers pre-approved,  but ditto for that. I would certainly do my best to never say anything in a prayer that would be contrary to LDS doctrine. Someone somewhere once told me she was impressed that I could pray "in Mormon." I thought that was an interesting comment. Both my wife and I have given testimonies on Fast Sundays many times. Ditto for those talks. Why would we be so dumb and insensitive to say something that we knew to be contrary to LDS doctrine? Just to summarize, I have never felt restricted in putting together a talk or giving a spontaneous prayer in Sunday School, EQ, a Christmas program, a Sacrament, or a Fireside. There is a wideness in God's mercy as well as a wideness in the doctrines we hold in common. It is quite common for me to speak to reunions when the folks come down here to get together. Ditto for those. Ditto for teaching adult Sunday School when the regular teacher was absent.

Last, we have attended the ward through three bishops. We have ministered as stated above under two of them. The most recent bishop has not asked us to do anything in his several months in the position. Perhaps he never will. That just speaks to me of the apparent local discretion, perhaps provided by the stake president who has been the same person since we started attending back in 2017. Neither of the three has suggested to us that we should not take the sacrament or testify. We have done that under all three. As I have mentioned before here in the forum, we have clearly told the first two that we have voluntarily placed ourselves under their spiritual authority as pastors of the church we have chosen to attend. Neither had any objection to that.

I have pulled away from the extent of my participation in MHA. From my perspective, it is not the same organization today as it was when I joined it some years ago. Perhaps in that context, I am too conservative! 😀

So, all of that is my personal experience, and how I see it, based on those experiences.

I was asking if anyone else had a different understanding of the manual 

[Stargazer]

On 9/8/2022 at 4:22 PM, Analytics said:

But I would never knock on a stranger's door to spread the good news that they could have intellectual integrity, increase their income by 10%, and have Sunday's off by accepting the good news.

Well, fine, but there's no eternal salvational benefit behind your teachings, so why bother? 

However, if the person behind the door could benefit from an opportunity to have their sins forgiven as opposed to a less salubrious outcome, then shouldn't one at least try to provide the opportunity?

Another comparative might be if the dam upstream breaks and a million tons of water is about to arrive, if I'm one of the few who knows about it, would I be a real jerk if I failed to warn my neighbor and just let him drown? He might be watching an important TV show and perhaps wouldn't appreciate being interrupted.

[Stargazer]

On 9/8/2022 at 4:49 PM, mfbukowski said:

I always ask them how they know the bible is true, since there is no more revelation and it was put together by men.  They usually answer that it is true because it says it is.

The Circular Reasoning Argument, yes. 

[Stargazer]

On 9/9/2022 at 6:25 PM, jkwilliams said:

That's why it's not very effective as a means of sharing religious beliefs. 

But frequently it's the only way to get to virtually everyone.

When you were serving your mission in Bolivia, were there not people there who would never have heard your message unless you brought it to them? I read your book, so I know that you were out in some pretty tall weeds sometimes.

[Stargazer]

On 9/11/2022 at 9:00 AM, mfbukowski said:

But yes, no rosaries etc.

Upon reflection, I can't see how it would hurt on a personal level, except for the matter of repeating rote prayers, which perhaps wouldn't be so good, as Jesus said in Matthew 6:7 -> "But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking." Perhaps this verse doesn't apply to praying the rosary? It might give a certain amount of personal comfort? I've never been a Catholic, so I'm at a loss here.

I do have a set of prayer beads, or actually, Buddha beads. I don't know what Buddhists do with them (use them like a rosary I presume), but for me they are a sturdy form of self-defense, since UK law doesn't permit me to carry anything for the intent of defense. These are stainless steel beads strung with a strong, steel-cored cable. I suppose I could use it to recite scriptures I've memorized. One bead per verse.

 

[MiserereNobis]

2 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Upon reflection, I can't see how it would hurt on a personal level, except for the matter of repeating rote prayers, which perhaps wouldn't be so good, as Jesus said in Matthew 6:7 -> "But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking." Perhaps this verse doesn't apply to praying the rosary? It might give a certain amount of personal comfort? I've never been a Catholic, so I'm at a loss here.

When one prays the rosary correctly, one is not using vain repetitions. Repeating a prayer does not make it automatically vain. A rosary can devolve into a vain repetition, of course, but any prayer can. Years ago I was close-ish friends with an LDS family (one of the reasons I joined this board). They fed me quite frequently, bless them. It's been awhile, but check this out:

Dear Heavenly Father. We thank thee for this food. We ask thee to bless it to strengthen and nourish our bodies. In the name of Jesus Christ amen. (pretty close?)

I heard this basic structure with a few other phrases added every time I ate at their house. It's quite repetitive. Is it vain? Only if the person praying is doing it automatically without thinking about it. Same with the rosary. 

Something non-Catholics don't know is that we are supposed to meditate on different mysteries while praying the rosary: the joyful mysteries (the events surrounding Christ's birth), the sorrowful mysteries (the events surrounding Christ's death), the glorious mysteries (the events surrounding Christ's resurrection and the beginning of the Church), and, if one wishes, the luminous mysteries (some of Christ's miracles). So, it is not simple repetition. Praying the rosary correctly involves intent, focus, and meditation.

Edited September 13, 2022 by MiserereNobis

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Upon reflection, I can't see how it would hurt on a personal level, except for the matter of repeating rote prayers, which perhaps wouldn't be so good, as Jesus said in Matthew 6:7 -> "But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking." Perhaps this verse doesn't apply to praying the rosary? It might give a certain amount of personal comfort? I've never been a Catholic, so I'm at a loss here.

I do have a set of prayer beads, or actually, Buddha beads. I don't know what Buddhists do with them (use them like a rosary I presume), but for me they are a sturdy form of self-defense, since UK law doesn't permit me to carry anything for the intent of defense. These are stainless steel beads strung with a strong, steel-cored cable. I suppose I could use it to recite scriptures I've memorized. One bead per verse.

 

Just get a machine gun and use it for weight lifting

Gotta get exercise of course. 

Each of those beads is a universe for Buddhists, and us if we want it to be. 

When did the generations of Gods begin?

Believing that your beads remind you of a gospel principle doesn't mean you have to turn in your temple recommend .

 

 

Edited September 13, 2022 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

10 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Something non-Catholics don't know is that we are supposed to meditate on different mysteries while praying: t

No, we are supposed to pray when we are praying.  IF we see that as "praying", imo, no problem 

But there are other ways as well, like having a two way conversation with our Father 

Edited September 13, 2022 by mfbukowski

[MiserereNobis]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

No, we are supposed to pray when we are praying.  IF we see that as "praying", imo, no problem 

But there are other ways as well, like having a two way conversation with our Father 

Yes, I was speaking specifically of the rosary. 

[Rain]

6 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

 

So I'm not seeing anything that specifies that the speakers have to be members. I think some would assume it, but it doesn't specify it.  

[Bernard Gui]

On 9/12/2022 at 12:14 PM, Navidad said:

Thanks for the info. I have often wondered to what extent these kinds of instructions are more rules or guidelines? In a different culture (LDS and otherwise) where I live, I think they are interpreted more as guidelines within which local leaders have discretion. Hence, I think my wife and I have been involved in perhaps more ministry as non-members than we might be in a different LDS ward or culture. Maybe not! I think there may be more variances tolerated in other Christian groups than in the LDS church, yet I do believe culture must play a role that in some cases may transcend strict doctrinal interpretations, even in the LDS gemeinde.

Would a Mennonite church or the Catholic Church allow a Latter-day Saint to preach in their meetings? I played the organ for a Mennonite Church while on my mission in Costa Rica, but they didn’t ask me to preach.

[Navidad]

18 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Would a Mennonite church or the Catholic Church allow a Latter-day Saint to preach in their meetings? I played the organ for a Mennonite Church while on my mission in Costa Rica, but they didn’t ask me to preach.

Hi Bernard:  I want to give you a serious answer to your question, but it is a little generic. I have certainly never performed an ordinance or assisted in such in a Catholic church. As I sit here and mull it over in my mind, I have spoken (taught) at least five times in Catholic churches, fellowships, retreats, and the like. At least some of that could be characterized as "preaching" or teaching. Certainly each church guards the administration of its ordinances, especially those centered around communion (sacrament, or the Eucharist).

Would a Latter-day Saint be "allowed" to preach/teach in a Mennonite meeting? Yes, I think many Mennonite churches would allow that. I know for a fact that our ward's bishop and the stake patriarch have spoken/preached/taught in local Mennonite meetings here in our area. Would a Latter-day Saint be allowed to administer communion? No. Neither would a Methodist. Would a Latter-day Saint be allowed to take communion? Certainly. Much of Mennonite preaching is done by lay bi-vocational ministers. Preaching/teaching is not an ordinance.

Would a Catholic priest be allowed to preach in a Mennonite church meeting? Yes. I have been present for that on several occasions. I have also been present when a mullah and a rabbi have spoken in Mennonite meetings. Preaching is not an ordinance. Officiating at a wedding? Probably not because that is an ordinance. I hope that helps.