More Cultural and Moral Decay

[Bernard Gui]

9 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I don't care if people embrace drag culture, and I certainly don't begrudge anyone if they think it's inappropriate for their kids. What I object to is the attribution of evil intent (alienating students from their families, sexualizing children, grooming for pedophilia) that seems to be stock in trade for these kinds of threads. 

And those who do not acquiesce are pilloried here.

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, Bernard Gui said:

And those who do not acquiesce are pilloried here.

Acquiesce in what? Not demonizing people?

[Vanguard]

46 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I don't care if people embrace drag culture, and I certainly don't begrudge anyone if they think it's inappropriate for their kids. What I object to is the attribution of evil intent (alienating students from their families, sexualizing children, grooming for pedophilia) that seems to be stock in trade for these kinds of threads. 

One of the main differences between much of what drag culture does (at least as much as I've seen) and other activities I consider significantly inconsistent with the principles of the Gospel, is the inclusion of children. Though the intent may be devoid of wanting to groom children, it does appear to desensitize them to sexual/quasi-sexual activity in ways and to an extent that I don't believe is healthy on multiple levels.  

[jkwilliams]

2 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

One of the main differences between much of what drag culture does (at least as much as I've seen) and other activities I consider significantly inconsistent with the principles of the Gospel, is the inclusion of children. Though the intent may be devoid of wanting to groom children, it does appear to desensitize them to sexual/quasi-sexual activity in ways and to an extent that I don't believe is healthy on multiple levels.  

This is what I'm talking about. You're able to explain your concerns and reservations without demonizing people. Thank you. 

[Duncan]

2 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

One of the main differences between much of what drag culture does (at least as much as I've seen) and other activities I consider significantly inconsistent with the principles of the Gospel, is the inclusion of children. Though the intent may be devoid of wanting to groom children, it does appear to desensitize them to sexual/quasi-sexual activity in ways and to an extent that I don't believe is healthy on multiple levels.  

I think though we are reading way, way too much into what children are thinking. Would they even know to be desensitized? Kids see clowns at the circus but I doubt they think it's a man dressed up in funny clothes and make up and would be desensitized. I think kids would see drag queens are just a funny looking person, they probably would think twice about the experience. Besides of which a drag show in this day an age pales in comparison to what some children are daily exposed to i.e. family violence, video games, alcoholism, drug abuse, latch key children, poverty, food insecurity, drugs. All that stuff is far worse than a drag show. If people don't want their kid to see a drag show then don't take them. Would a kid even know what a sexual activity is? 

[jkwilliams]

8 minutes ago, Duncan said:

I think though we are reading way, way too much into what children are thinking. Would they even know to be desensitized? Kids see clowns at the circus but I doubt they think it's a man dressed up in funny clothes and make up and would be desensitized. I think kids would see drag queens are just a funny looking person, they probably would think twice about the experience. Besides of which a drag show in this day an age pales in comparison to what some children are daily exposed to i.e. family violence, video games, alcoholism, drug abuse, latch key children, poverty, food insecurity, drugs. All that stuff is far worse than a drag show. If people don't want their kid to see a drag show then don't take them. Would a kid even know what a sexual activity is? 

I remember the first time I heard about drag queens reading to kids at the library, and I thought it was kind of inappropriate. But then I wondered what exactly was the problem? Is a drag queen reading The Hungry Caterpillar introducing inappropriate sexual content to children? Not that I can see. I have two grandsons, both of whom are 4 years old. The one likes to wear pajamas as much as possible, so when he comes home from preschool, he immediately changes into pajamas. The other one likes to wear things he thinks make his "style." These range from an old pair of headphones to some cat's-eye glasses sans lenses to a big knitted scarf. Lately, he's discovered that his sister's puffy pink Minnie Mouse skirt fits him, and he thinks it makes him look stylish. I personally don't see any difference between a little boy who wants to wear pajamas and one who wants to wear a skirt. Likewise, I don't think a drag show is of necessity inappropriately sexual. When my friends say they had a good time at a family-friendly event, I take them at their word. 

Edited September 6, 2022 by jkwilliams

[Amulek]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I like the angel outfits because of the murder of Matthew Shepard that was beaten and left to die because he was gay, in '98 in Wyoming and I think one of the killers was LDS.

One of the killers was LDS? I've never heard that before. CFR.

Also, out of curiosity, if BYU didn't have its own police department, who do you think would have been called to respond to the Y that night when protesters decided to trespass on private property?

 

[jkwilliams]

2 minutes ago, Amulek said:

One of the killers was LDS? I've never heard that before. CFR.

Also, out of curiosity, if BYU didn't have its own police department, who do you think would have been called to respond to the Y that night when protesters decided to trespass on private property?

 

Russell Henderson, one of the killers, was raised LDS by his grandparents.

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/1999/13/matthew-shepard-199903

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, jkwilliams said:

Acquiesce in what? Not demonizing people?

Acquiesce in embracing the drag culture. If I belief I think it is immoral and not fit for children is that demonizing? 

Edited September 6, 2022 by Bernard Gui

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, Bernard Gui said:

Acquiesce in embracing the drag culture. If I belief I think it is immoral and not fit for children is that demonizing? 

Nope, not at all. 

[Bernard Gui]

31 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

One of the main differences between much of what drag culture does (at least as much as I've seen) and other activities I consider significantly inconsistent with the principles of the Gospel, is the inclusion of children. Though the intent may be devoid of wanting to groom children, it does appear to desensitize them to sexual/quasi-sexual activity in ways and to an extent that I don't believe is healthy on multiple levels.  

The intent is to desensitize children and make them more accepting of the practice, but there is no good reason why children need to be exposed.

Edited September 6, 2022 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

2 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Nope, not at all. 

At what point does resistance become demonizing? If one says it is not appropriate for all children, is that demonizing?

Edited September 6, 2022 by Bernard Gui

[jkwilliams]

Just now, Bernard Gui said:

At what point does resistance become demonizing?

When it crosses over into ascribing evil motives (pedophilia, for example) to people one disagrees with. There's a big difference between "I don't believe this is appropriate for children" and "don't protect the homos."

[Bernard Gui]

10 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

When it crosses over into ascribing evil motives (pedophilia, for example) to people one disagrees with. There's a big difference between "I don't believe this is appropriate for children" and "don't protect the homos."

Excluding wanting to hurt people, what kind of resistance is acceptable when one perceives there are efforts to normalize it, especially in schools?

Edited September 6, 2022 by Bernard Gui

[jkwilliams]

2 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Excluding wanting to hurt people, what kind of resistance is acceptable when one perceives there are efforts to normalize it, especially in schools?

By all means, stand up for what you believe in. Maybe I’m naive, but I think people can do that without the demonizing and name calling. 

[Bernard Gui]

5 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

By all means, stand up for what you believe in. Maybe I’m naive, but I think people can do that without the demonizing and name calling. 

Thanks, but that did not answer my question. What is acceptable in resisting? Just expressing disapproval leads to name-calling and threats.

Edited September 6, 2022 by Bernard Gui

[ttribe]

8 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Thanks, but that did not answer my question. What is acceptable in resisting? 

Why do you need someone to define it for you? John has plainly laid out that ascribing unfounded motives and engaging in name calling are the things to which he objects. Other than that, I believe the New Testament said something about loving one another. You know, the golden rule, and all that.

Edited September 6, 2022 by ttribe

[jkwilliams]

Just now, Bernard Gui said:

Thanks, but that did not answer my question. What is acceptable in resisting? 

Voting, getting involved in local school board meetings, and whatever else one can do. Are you seriously asking me for approval of possible actions? Do what you want. My concern is the hatred and name calling (and no, I’m obviously not saying that applies to you). 

[Tacenda]

31 minutes ago, Amulek said:

One of the killers was LDS? I've never heard that before. CFR.

Also, out of curiosity, if BYU didn't have its own police department, who do you think would have been called to respond to the Y that night when protesters decided to trespass on private property?

 

https://www.litcharts.com/lit/the-laramie-project/characters/russell-henderson   Don't know, don't care about the Provo police, or I'm not putting them down am I?

[jkwilliams]

10 minutes ago, ttribe said:

Why do you need someone to define it for you? John has plainly laid out that ascribing unfounded motives and engaging in name calling are the things to which he objects. Other than that, I believe the New Testament said something about loving one another. You know, the golden rule, and all that.

In short: resist all you want; just don’t be an ******* about it. 

[Amulek]

17 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Russell Henderson, one of the killers, was raised LDS by his grandparents.

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/1999/13/matthew-shepard-199903

Interesting. As I said, I had never heard that before.

I never knew there was any sort of Mormon connection at all, even a lapsed one as seems to have been the case.

 

[jkwilliams]

3 minutes ago, Amulek said:

Interesting. As I said, I had never heard that before.

I never knew there was any sort of Mormon connection at all, even a lapsed one as seems to have been the case.

 

Yes, he went from LDS Eagle Scout to meth-head murderer in a relatively short time. 

[SeekingUnderstanding]

3 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

You and I have been around here for a long time. Did you ever imagine that one day on this board refusing to embrace drag culture and to submit your children to being exposed to it would result in being called a hater and a bigot? That this would pit fellow Saints against you? Never in my dreams. Very interesting.

With respect, if you don’t want to embrace drag culture don’t. Maybe just tell your friends to stop weaponizing this issue:

https://www.npr.org/2022/06/16/1105544325/drag-shows-children

[SeekingUnderstanding]

2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

The intent is to desensitize children and make them more accepting of the practice, but there is no good reason why children need to be exposed.

I’m not a drag show pusher. I doubt this one in Provo had anything objectionable for children but know some do.
 

As to your comment, I could make the same point about religion and many atheists do in fact make that argument. 

[Bernard Gui]

47 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

I’m not a drag show pusher. I doubt this one in Provo had anything objectionable for children but know some do.
 

As to your comment, I could make the same point about religion and many atheists do in fact make that argument. 

You could make the point, but it would be wrong. Do you object to the names used by some of the people??

Edited September 6, 2022 by Bernard Gui