What is the Church's current expectation for number of children?

[Vanguard]

9 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I was born with a birth defect that required me to spend a night or two in the hospital every week until I was 5 years old, so my parents decided not to have any more kids. Then my mom got pregnant with my brother, and two years after that, with my youngest brother. She didn't tell my grandmother she was pregnant until she came for a visit. Grandma, seeing her obviously with child, threw her purse on the ground and said, "Do I have to draw you a picture?" 

Oh my. That's a story all right. : ) I am also the oldest of three boys. What's the age differences between you and your younger brothers?

[jkwilliams]

5 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

Oh my. That's a story all right. : ) I am also the oldest of three boys. What's the age differences between you and your younger brothers?

My brother Danny was 2.5 years than me, and Ross was 2.5 years younger than him.

[Vanguard]

1 minute ago, jkwilliams said:

My brother Danny was 2.5 years than me, and Ross was 2.5 years younger than him.

I've got over six on the middle one and 9 and the last. You guys are close. I think I served as a quasi-father-figure to my youngest though I wasn't cognizant of it at the time. My dad had picked up a second job that had him out of the house for ~70-80 hrs/week and my mom was carrying a full-time job.

[jkwilliams]

2 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

I've got over six on the middle one and 9 and the last. You guys are close. I think I served as a quasi-father-figure to my youngest though I wasn't cognizant of it at the time. My dad had picked up a second job that had him out of the house for ~70-80 hrs/week and my mom was carrying a full-time job.

I couldn't say I was ever anything like that to either one of them. It's bittersweet thinking of them. We had a pretty typical suburban upbringing, with my mom a SAHM mom. Danny tended to get into a lot of trouble hanging out with our bishop's son, while Ross was more a straight-arrow Mormon kid, like I was. 

[BlueDreams]

22 hours ago, Chum said:

Are we still expected to produce as many children as we guess we can well care for? I'm not really sure any more. I know the last few years have reprioritized the Church's messaging but I think it's been a decade since I last heard instruction specific messaging about family size.

I'm asking because the reality of living is (still) quickly changing for us first worlders. When I joined (1993), non-fortunate people could still work and save on a couple of incomes. A decade ago, I'd peg it at 3 incomes. Now I'd peg the range at 3 -5, with housing being the primary driver of the latest uptick.

When one factors in the cost of college, the decreasing likelihood that a degree can pay itself, the decreasing ability to afford family-sized housing (inc ins) and increasing costs of minimal living - it's becoming difficult to identify anything that isn't out of reach, for most of the population.

Given the above, I'm not clear on:

1) What the Church sees as a reasonable path to sustain a larger families and

2) What is the path the Church sees for those kids in their 20s and 30s.

Our workable path is to beat out many families for the extremely rare, available, non-mansion 5 bedroom and (with all our incomes) live above a survival state. For those families we beat out, I'm not sure there is any path. What might the Church think?

I haven't heard advice on family size in a long while. Kids, if you can have one, are still strongly encouraged. But I haven't heard much for the amount. I don't know what a "reasonable path" would be for those to sustain a larger family. For one, I don't have a large family. For another, I would assume it's to be prayerfully decided on what that looks like and what one needs to do for an individual circumstance. There's not one single path for larger families. I have 3 friends who have families most modern americans would see as bigger. On has 6 kids, one 5, and the last 4 (but may have 1-2 more). None of them had the same course.  1 had her first in her bachelor's, 1 in her post-grad school, another when she had graduated as a teacher. 2 work with very different pay (one's a lawyer and with her husbands income likely falls into the upper class category, one's a special ed teacher/admin) 1 is a SAHM and has been since she graduated college. At this point they all are home owners, though none of them started as homeowners when they had their first children in their 20's. In different ways they all had to have faith when starting their family and how many kids they would have. They relied on friends and family for support/help. They made do at times, and had a few sacrifices along the ways. But they're all living fairly comfortably today. (All of their children have been born in the last 11 years)

I am in my 30's. Again, beyond basic guidelines about family being important and should be prioritized, I haven't seen a straight up path. I bought my house 4.5 years ago just shy of my 30th bday. The market was definitely heating up, competition for buying was steep, but wasn't as feverish as it became this last year. We chose a place and payment that we could afford to keep my income as optional for essential payments. I currently work part-time. He works full time and has increased his pay through a series of promotions. It was certainly not a 5 bedroom, non-mansion. It's a nice 3 bedroom place with an unfinished basement that had good bones, but needed some remodeling and replacements. As we move past 2 kids, we'll probably finish the basement to accommodate. If had less pay, it would still be doable to have 2 kids with caution and planning. MY bro, now 32, is also expecting his first. He has less money than I do and his wife only works small unofficial jobs while immigration was settling. You make do, you find supports, it more often then you'd believe comes together.

 

I should add I always assumed i'd have a family with 4 kids. But then I got married at 30 and had a kiddo with special needs (dietary) that took time to figure out. I'm now 34 and the size is now looking more like maybe 3. I'm not really open to having kids past 40. But we'll see. life is weird. 

 

With luv,

BD

Edited August 31, 2022 by BlueDreams

[jkwilliams]

15 minutes ago, BlueDreams said:

I haven't heard advice on family size in a long while. Kids, if you can have one, are still strongly encouraged. But I haven't heard much for the amount. I don't know what a "reasonable path" would be for those to sustain a larger family. For one, I don't have a large family. For another, I would assume it's to be prayerfully decided on what that looks like and what one needs to do for an individual circumstance. There's not one single path for larger families. I have 3 friends who have families most modern americans would see as bigger. On has 6 kids, one 5, and the last 4 (but may have 1-2 more). None of them had the same course.  1 had her first in her bachelor's, 1 in her post-grad school, another when she had graduated as a teacher. 2 work with very different pay (one's a lawyer and with her husbands income likely falls into the upper class category, one's a special ed teacher/admin) 1 is a SAHM and has been since she graduated college. At this point they all are home owners, though none of them started as homeowners when they had their first children in their 20's. In different ways they all had to have faith when starting their family and how many kids they would have. They relied on friends and family for support/help. They made do at times, and had a few sacrifices along the ways. But they're all living fairly comfortably today. (All of their children have been born in the last 11 years)

I am in my 30's. Again, beyond basic guidelines about family being important and should be prioritized, I haven't seen a straight up path. I bought my house 4.5 years ago just shy of my 30th bday. The market was definitely heating up, competition for buying was steep, but wasn't as feverish as it became this last year. We chose a place and payment that we could afford to keep my income as optional for essential payments. I currently work part-time. He works full time and has increased his pay through a series of promotions. It was certainly not a 5 bedroom, non-mansion. It's a nice 3 bedroom place with an unfinished basement that had good bones, but needed some remodeling and replacements. As we move past 2 kids, we'll probably finish the basement to accommodate. If had less pay, it would still be doable to have 2 kids with caution and planning. MY bro, now 32, is also expecting his first. He has less money than I do and his wife only works small unofficial jobs while immigration was settling. You make do, you find supports, it more often then you'd believe comes together.

 

I should add I always assumed i'd have a family with 4 kids. But then I got married at 30 and had a kiddo with special needs (dietary) that took time to figure out. I'm now 34 and the size is now looking more like maybe 3. I'm not really open to having kids past 40. But we'll see. life is weird. 

 

With luv,

BD

Life has its own plans. Best we can do is make the best of it and be happy. Sounds like you're doing that. 

[Stargazer]

21 minutes ago, BlueDreams said:

I should add I always assumed i'd have a family with 4 kids. But then I got married at 30 and had a kiddo with special needs (dietary) that took time to figure out. I'm now 34 and the size is now looking more like maybe 3. I'm not really open to having kids past 40. But we'll see. life is weird. 

My late wife managed three kids past 40. I wouldn't recommend it, but it can be done, depending upon circumstances.

And yes, the one thing life is, is weird.

[BlueDreams]

39 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

My late wife managed three kids past 40. I wouldn't recommend it, but it can be done, depending upon circumstances.

And yes, the one thing life is, is weird.

I know it can be done. My mom and grandmother both had kids in their 40's. The physical capacity I'm sure is there. But the desire is solidly not. 

With luv,

BD

[Stargazer]

3 minutes ago, BlueDreams said:

I know it can be done. My mom and grandmother both had kids in their 40's. The physical capacity I'm sure is there. But the desire is solidly not. 

That, of course, varies with individuals. As I mentioned in an earlier post, my late wife was 40 when we were married, and she did desire to have a child with me. We ended up with three. I was OK with none, as she already had seven and I had two. 

[JLHPROF]

13 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

That, of course, varies with individuals. As I mentioned in an earlier post, my late wife was 40 when we were married, and she did desire to have a child with me. We ended up with three. I was OK with none, as she already had seven and I had two. 

Good job following the first commandment.  😉

[Stargazer]

Just now, JLHPROF said:

Good job following the first commandment.  😉

I don't think we were following the commandment. I thought that as far as we were concerned, the commandment was fulfilled to that point. But her position was clear, that she wanted the connection with me that a child would bring. Not precisely word-for-word, but what she said was "I can't imagine not having a baby with my husband!" 

[Vanguard]

2 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

I couldn't say I was ever anything like that to either one of them. It's bittersweet thinking of them. We had a pretty typical suburban upbringing, with my mom a SAHM mom. Danny tended to get into a lot of trouble hanging out with our bishop's son, while Ross was more a straight-arrow Mormon kid, like I was. 

Ha! I was the straight arrow and am still perceived in that light. My two younger brothers both served missions and both have not been a part of the gospel for some 20 years or more. My dad used to say (he's now not really capable of these conversations) to me something to the effect - "Son, you're my rock and have stayed faithful. Continue staying strong in the faith". Two things about that - I started to be annoyed by those comments due to the built in expectations and I believe much of it was said to assuage his own poorly-formed fears about not having an eternal family or some such. My two brothers and I rarely talk about the church - they have given me my space to continue worshipping as I see fit and more importantly, I have given them their space to explore a different path unlike they had earlier envisioned. I get along great with the middle brother and not so much with the caboose... 

[smac97]

4 hours ago, Chum said:

The browser I use to post here blocks embedded videos. I'll assume your point and it to the reasons to be optimistic - and get caught up later.

Here's the link: https://www.youtube.com/c/KerryTarnow/videos

[CV75]

19 hours ago, Rain said:

 

Pretty similar to what I had.  As a type 1 diabetic, who had severe pre-eclampsia with all 3 children, I most definitely prayed about whether to have a child, another child or to stop.  It was definitely a decision with lots of thinking about.  And truly the thing I had to worry about most, even though money was tight, was my health, life and the care of my  children.

I am grateful the church leaves it up to us, and has for the 31 years I've been married, because honestly there is not a single leader I would have trusted on this. The stakes were too high. It had to come from the Lord.  Intellectually I get why healthy people may not feel as strongly about that as I do, but feeling wise I just cannot imagine not going through that spiritual process about having kids.

This seems to be about the # children thread (???) My comment was about the BYU hiring requirements thred.

[jkwilliams]

1 hour ago, Vanguard said:

Ha! I was the straight arrow and am still perceived in that light. My two younger brothers both served missions and both have not been a part of the gospel for some 20 years or more. My dad used to say (he's now not really capable of these conversations) to me something to the effect - "Son, you're my rock and have stayed faithful. Continue staying strong in the faith". Two things about that - I started to be annoyed by those comments due to the built in expectations and I believe much of it was said to assuage his own poorly-formed fears about not having an eternal family or some such. My two brothers and I rarely talk about the church - they have given me my space to continue worshipping as I see fit and more importantly, I have given them their space to explore a different path unlike they had earlier envisioned. I get along great with the middle brother and not so much with the caboose... 

Sounds like you have reached a good place with them both. I had a good relationship with both of my brothers and miss them terribly. I don't know what they would have made of my disaffection from the church, but maybe someday I'll have the opportunity to explain it to them. Who knows? My parents used to say things to me like your father said to you about me being the stalwart, etc. I know it's been very hard on them to see me walk away. 

[Vanguard]

2 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

Sounds like you have reached a good place with them both. I had a good relationship with both of my brothers and miss them terribly. I don't know what they would have made of my disaffection from the church, but maybe someday I'll have the opportunity to explain it to them. Who knows? My parents used to say things to me like your father said to you about me being the stalwart, etc. I know it's been very hard on them to see me walk away. 

It was hard for me to see them both leave and especially my youngest. Unfortunately, I do not have a relationship with the youngest. He has literally and absolutely cancelled me and the middle brother out of his life. It has nothing directly to do with church at all but rather years of built up issues that have gone unaddressed until he finally 'burst' about two years ago. Whether in or out of the church, severing close relationships in this way hollows me out... : ( 

Edited August 31, 2022 by Vanguard

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, Vanguard said:

It was hard for me to see them both leave and especially my youngest. Unfortunately, I do not have a relationship with the youngest. He has literally and absolutely cancelled me and the middle brother out of his life. It has nothing directly to do with church at all but rather years of built up issues that have gone unaddressed until he finally 'burst' about two years ago. Whether in or out of the church, severing close relationships in this way hollow me out... : ( 

I’m sorry to hear that. I get along really well with my living siblings. My sister is active in the church. My older brother and oldest sister are both out of the church. 

[Rain]

8 hours ago, CV75 said:

This seems to be about the # children thread (???) My comment was about the BYU hiring requirements thred.

I'm sorry.  Apparently I was going to respond to something said and forgot to do it.  Unfortunately, I have no clue what I was going to say!

[CA Steve]

If there is an infinite number of premortal spirits and an infinite amount of time, what difference does the number of children we have make?

[jkwilliams]

11 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

If there is an infinite number of premortal spirits and an infinite amount of time, what difference does the number of children we have make?

It just means we have a lot of catching up to do. 🤣

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, CA Steve said:

If there is an infinite number of premortal spirits and an infinite amount of time, what difference does the number of children we have make?

What makes you think there is either for this creation?

[Meadowchik]

13 hours ago, Vanguard said:

It was hard for me to see them both leave and especially my youngest. Unfortunately, I do not have a relationship with the youngest. He has literally and absolutely cancelled me and the middle brother out of his life. It has nothing directly to do with church at all but rather years of built up issues that have gone unaddressed until he finally 'burst' about two years ago. Whether in or out of the church, severing close relationships in this way hollows me out... : ( 

That's really hard and I'm also sorry to hear it. 

[CA Steve]

31 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

What makes you think there is either for this creation?

That's why I prefaced my question with "if".

Do you believe either are limited? If so, how?

[2BizE]

Several years ago, there were a number of church leaders who spoke out against birth control. I don’t hear church leaders saying they now,  but I have not heard of any redactions.  What is the church stance on birth control today?

[Vanguard]

6 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

That's really hard and I'm also sorry to hear it. 

Thanks. Very unfortunate in that his 'severing' has also caused ripples throughout the entire extended family. Everyone is scratching their heads about this decision. I love him though and will always 'leave the light on'...