The Continued Decline of Young Men Willing to Serve a Mission

[Fair Dinkum]

3 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I’m not heated at all, and I apologize if I’ve contributed to any heat here. I’m genuinely surprised at this hard line on missions. Yes, we had pressure to serve a mission, but not like this. 

Its currently a full court press of pressure and shaming.  When I CHOSE to go on a mission I went because it was what I had always wanted to do.  No regrets at all.  It's very different today...I honestly think the church is very desperate and is resorting to desperate measures to shame young men into going (at least that is how the local.  It will backfire and blow up in their faces.

[bluebell]

9 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

That’s a good point: how is a mandatory requirement in any way voluntary? 

It depends.  Something can be voluntary and yet still mandatory depending on what end result you are striving for.

Learning to swim is completely voluntary for example, but if your end goal is to compete on the swim team, then it becomes mandatory at the same time.

[bluebell]

4 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said:

Its currently a full court press of pressure and shaming.  When I CHOSE to go on a mission I went because it was what I had always wanted to do.  No regrets at all.  It's very different today...I honestly think the church is very desperate and is resorting to desperate measures to shame young men into going (at least that is how the local.  It will backfire and blow up in their faces.

I'm not seeing any shaming happening in my ward.  I'm sure other areas are different.

[jkwilliams]

Just now, bluebell said:

I'm not seeing any shaming happening in my ward.  I'm sure other areas are different.

I haven’t seen that, either. Granted, I’m usually not there past sacrament meeting. I’m just surprised at the vehemence over its being a commandment. I’ve never seen anything like that before. 

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Fether said:

There is this weird war on agency and bastardization of its meaning and purpose.

The principle of agency is not some justification for us to be ok in everything we do. Agency is the ability to know good and evil, and to choose good or evil. We ought to persuade everyone to choose good. Persuading people to choose good is not an affront to agency.

 

26 minutes ago, Fether said:

Which I fully believe and support. What I do not support is rejecting the idea that this is a commandment from God and we should t persuade young men to serve

Others have been using “pressure” and saying young men should not be pressured to go while you are substituting persuading for pressure in responding to them. Persuasion is not the same thing as pressuring and with certain individuals, using pressure will result in the opposite of persuasion. 

[ksfisher]

2 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said:

Its currently a full court press of pressure and shaming.

If it is I've completely missed it.  I've been in ward and stake leadership positions for the last 20+ years of my life and I've not heard anything today about young men serving a mission than I did 20 years ago. 

 

4 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said:

.I honestly think the church is very desperate and is resorting to desperate measures to shame young men into going (at least that is how the local.  It will backfire and blow up in their faces.

I'm assuming you're speaking anecdotally.  I don't see anything being taught today that wasn't taught when I served a mission 35 years ago.  "desperate measures to shame young men" seems like a lot of hyperbole on your part.  What new measures are being taken?

[Fair Dinkum]

5 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I'm not seeing any shaming happening in my ward.  I'm sure other areas are different.

It's really sad.  I fear it will drive my grandson out of the church. 

[jkwilliams]

Just now, Fair Dinkum said:

It's really sad.  I fear it will drive my grandson out of the church. 

Here’s hoping your grandson’s experience is an outlier. 

[Fether]

37 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I’m not heated at all, and I apologize if I’ve contributed to any heat here. I’m genuinely surprised at this hard line on missions. Yes, we had pressure to serve a mission, but not like this. 

I’m definitely heated. 
 

If a young man chooses to not serve a mission, there should be no shame. He should be helped and persuaded to continue to grow spiritually. Hopefully, one day, he will choose to serve

 

Now… if someone is declaring that missions are not expect of young men and that it is up to them to decide and God cares little of what he chooses to do… that is when I get mad. It’s one thing to sin, it is another to preach sin.

[jkwilliams]

Just now, Fether said:

Now… if someone is declaring that missions are not expect of young men and that it is up to them to decide and God cares little of what he chooses to do… that is when I get mad. It’s one thing to sin, it is another to preach sin.

Well, I haven’t declared any of that. I have just said I’ve never heard it called a commandment or part of the baptismal covenant. 

I have not:

- said missions are not expected of young men

- said God cares little for what he chooses to do (that is, I don’t think the church teaches that)

- preached sin

[Fair Dinkum]

26 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

If it is I've completely missed it.  I've been in ward and stake leadership positions for the last 20+ years of my life and I've not heard anything today about young men serving a mission than I did 20 years ago. 

 

I'm assuming you're speaking anecdotally.  I don't see anything being taught today that wasn't taught when I served a mission 35 years ago.  "desperate measures to shame young men" seems like a lot of hyperbole on your part.  What new measures are being taken?

I'm sharing third party what was related to me by my believing active grandson.  These are his feelings.  I told him to establish boundaries and tell them to back off but they continue to persist in pressuring him, he feels shamed by chosing not to go on a mission.  But now he is questioning if he even has a place in the church as a non mission serving 19 year old.

[Fair Dinkum]

8 minutes ago, Fether said:

I’m definitely heated. 
 

If a young man chooses to not serve a mission, there should be no shame. He should be helped and persuaded to continue to grow spiritually. Hopefully, one day, he will choose to serve

 

Now… if someone is declaring that missions are not expect of young men and that it is up to them to decide and God cares little of what he chooses to do… that is when I get mad. It’s one thing to sin, it is another to preach sin.

No one in my grandson's ward will accept his decision as his final decision. Mind you he comes from a very active family so his decision is not consistent with this family.  But no one seems to accept it

Edited August 9, 2022 by Fair Dinkum

[jkwilliams]

Just now, Fair Dinkum said:

No one is my grandson's ward will accept his decision as his final decision. Mind you he comes from a very active family so his decision is not consistent with this family.  But no one seems to accept it

I have to say that I’m impressed he’s standing up for himself. 

[ksfisher]

5 minutes ago, Fether said:

if someone is declaring that missions are not expect of young men

I think everyone is in agreement with your quote from President Nelson that every able young man should prepare to serve a mission.

6 minutes ago, Fether said:

that it is up to them to decide

Isn't it?  Isn't the decision part of their agency?

6 minutes ago, Fether said:

and God cares little of what he chooses to do

I don't think anyone has said that, directly or even indirectly.

7 minutes ago, Fether said:

It’s one thing to sin, it is another to preach sin.

This sounds unnecessarily harsh. 

[bluebell]

1 minute ago, Fair Dinkum said:

No one in my grandson's ward will accept his decision as his final decision. Mind you he comes from a very active family so his decision is not consistent with this family.  But no one seems to accept it

Is there a single adult ward he could transfer into?  Maybe getting into a different ward would help?

[Fair Dinkum]

2 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Is there a single adult ward he could transfer into?  Maybe getting into a different ward would help?

He tried that and got a similar reaction but that's more than likely where he'll end up, if he choses to stay with the church.

[ksfisher]

4 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said:

he is questioning if he even has a place in the church as a non mission serving 19 year old.

I have a son who did not to serve a mission.  He has some speech problems, and while he will never admit it, I think this has influenced his decision not to serve in that capacity.

Since he turned 19 he has served faithfully as a financial clerk, ward mission leader, deacons quorum advisor (or whatever they are called now), and received his endowment.  There is defiantly a place in the church for young men do not serve proselyting missions.

[pogi]

24 minutes ago, Fether said:

If a young man chooses to not serve a mission, there should be no shame. He should be helped and persuaded to continue to grow spiritually. Hopefully, one day, he will choose to serve

How could there not be shame if it is being taught that it is a sin to not serve, that it is a violation of their priesthood duty and of their baptismal covenant?  When their priesthood leadership on every level is persuading/pressuring them and making it plainly clear that it is an expected and even mandated of them.  No way an 18 year old can walk away from that without feeling shame.  No way.  Especially knowing that he will continue to be a project for leadership with the "hope" that he will choose to serve one day".  How could one not feel shame under the gaze of their priesthood leadership whose hopes he has dashed?  

[Danzo]

52 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I haven’t seen that, either. Granted, I’m usually not there past sacrament meeting. I’m just surprised at the vehemence over its being a commandment. I’ve never seen anything like that before. 

I wouldn't take comment on this board to be representative of anything.  In my area of the church, going on missions is encouraged but not everyone goes and I don't see any particular chastisement or negative reaction to people who choose not to serve.  In fact I only see love toward those that choose to go and those that choose not to go.    in my stake there is a much bigger emphasis on following the covenant path.  A mission is not a required step for salvation.  No one really asks anyone if they have served a mission. Sometimes people mention it in their talks but other don't. In my family there are people who went on missions and people who didn't.  If you were to judge worthiness by callings (a very bad idea, but some do for some reason) you would find that the members of my family that didn't go on missions have had higher callings than those that did (those that did and those that didn't still consider themselves practicing members of the church).  My son just turned 20 and has not decided whether he will serve a mission or not.  We haven't disowned him and he hasn't been kicked out of church or shamed in any way.  No one asks us if he is going on a mission.  He still goes to church and is welcome there.  He has high functioning autism so we are not sure if a mission is the best thing for him. We have told him it is his choice. We will support him if he goes and we will support him if he doesn't.  If he doesn't, he has not left the covenant path. If he does go, it will be a challenge for him (probably more for his companions). We told him he could probably be successful if he wants to be despite his challenges.

He currently attends BYU Idaho on campus. They are not saying he has to go on a mission. 

Edited August 9, 2022 by Danzo

[Fair Dinkum]

2 minutes ago, pogi said:

How could there not be shame if it is being taught that it is a sin to not serve, that it is a violation of their priesthood duty and of their baptismal covenant?  When their priesthood leadership on every level is persuading/pressuring them and making it plainly clear that it is an expected and even mandated of them.  No way an 18 year old can walk away from that without feeling shame.  No way.  Especially knowing that he will continue to be a project for leadership with the "hope" that he will choose to serve one day".  How could one not feel shame under the gaze of their priesthood leadership whose hopes he has dashed?  

Finally someone gets it.  Thanks Pogi

[Calm]

Unfortunately there are some in the Church who are teaching a mission is mandatory.  A few weeks ago a stake presidency counselor was preaching his version.  Given the shocked response of a certain segment of the online Mormon (talking about cultural associations of all types, not the Church) community, it must be unusual though.  This is a transcript.  The clip was on FB and Twitter and I have no desire to try and dig it up.  It might be linked if we talked about it here, which I thought we did though no one has referred to it in this thread, so I may be misremembering.

The SP counselor:

Quote

A little tangent here real quick. We were recently as a family having a discussion about missionary work. One of my daughters was at school. She was talking with her friends about President Nelson's recent call for young men to serve missions and the friends there at the table were debating, "Do young men have to go or is it a choice?" Now, young men, I hope you'll think about this carefully because there's an important doctrine here. Do you have a choice whether to serve a mission? I'm going to tell you why you don't. 

Now, that might rub you the wrong way because we're so big into "liberty" and "agency" and we do believe we're a free, democratic king of people. Right? But here's why you don't have the choice anymore. Is because when you were baptized, you signed on to the Lord's plan, which is giving up free agency and accepting moral agency. The difference being that we give up thinking that we know for ourselves what is best in our lives, and we trust the Lord to give us the direction that is best for us in our lives. As a young man, if that sounds like foreign doctrine to you, I hope you'll reconsider the importance of that baptismal and sacramental covenant, where every week we come to church and we say, "I'm giving up what I think is best, and I trust the Lord to guide and direct me in my life." And his will becomes paramount and no longer is what we want the most important thing in our lives. We recognize that what the Lord can give us is much greater than anything we can choose for ourselves."

 

 

[jkwilliams]

2 minutes ago, Danzo said:

I wouldn't take comment on this board to be representative of anything.  In my area of the church, going on missions is encouraged but not everyone goes and I don't see any particular chastisement of negative reaction to people who choose not to serve.  In fact I only see love toward those that choose to go and those that choose not to go.    in my stake there is a much bigger emphasis on following the covenant path.  A mission is not a required step for salvation.  No one really asks anyone if they have served a mission. Sometimes people mention it in their talks but other don't. In my family there are people who went on missions and people who didn't.  If you were to judge worthiness by callings (a very bad idea, but some do for some reason) you would find that the members of my family that didn't go on missions have had higher callings than those that did (those that did and those that didn't still consider themselves practicing members of the church).  My son just turned 20 and has not decided whether he will serve a mission or not.  We haven't disowned him and he hasn't been kicked out of church or shamed in any way.  No one asks us if he is going on a mission.  He still goes to church and is welcome there.  He has high functioning autism so we are not sure if a mission is the best thing for him. We have told him it is his choice. We will support him if he goes and we will support him if he doesn't.  If he doesn't, he has not left the covenant path. If he does go, it will be a challenge for him (probably more for his companions). We told him he could probably be successful if he wants to be despite his challenges.

He currently attends BYU Idaho on campus. They are not saying he has to go on a mission. 

That’s pretty much been my experience in the church. This vehemence about covenants and commandment is foreign to me. 

[Fether]

12 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

This sounds unnecessarily harsh.

How so? 

[Rock_N_Roll]

1 hour ago, Fether said:

Please catch up on the convo before you start talking. The command to serve didn’t start till the 70s

I’ve read the entire thread so, yes, I was caught up on the convo before I started talking. I just don’t think your point that serving missions was something encouraged but not a commandment until the early 70’s, then suddenly became a commandment and considered a sin if one didn’t serve, holds water. Sorry, not convinced. Not serving a mission is not sin.

I served in the early eighties because I wanted to and thought it was the right thing for me at the time. Not because I thought I would be sinning if I didn’t.

Edited August 9, 2022 by Rock_N_Roll

[Fether]

7 minutes ago, pogi said:

How could there not be shame if it is being taught that it is a sin to not serve, that it is a violation of their priesthood duty and of their baptismal covenant?  When their priesthood leadership on every level is persuading/pressuring them and making it plainly clear that it is an expected and even mandated of them.  No way an 18 year old can walk away from that without feeling shame.  No way.  Especially knowing that he will continue to be a project for leadership with the "hope" that he will choose to serve one day".  How could one not feel shame under the gaze of their priesthood leadership whose hopes he has dashed?  

Alma 42:29-30

”only let your sins trouble you, with that trouble which shall bring you down unto repentance.
O my son, I desire that ye should deny the justice of God no more. Do not endeavor to excuse yourself in the least point because of your sins, by denying the justice of God; but do you let the justice of God, and his mercy, and his long-suffering have full sway in your heart; and let it bring you down to the dust in humility.”