The Continued Decline of Young Men Willing to Serve a Mission

[jkwilliams]

16 minutes ago, Fether said:

You said

”it is not a sin to not serve a mission”

 

My line of thinking is

 

1- It is a sin to neglect priesthood duty

2- Prophets have said serving a full time mission is a priesthood duty

3- refusing to serve a full time mission is neglecting a priesthood dury

4- not serving a mission is a sin

 

Where am I mistaken?

 

I suppose where we are at odds is over the “refusing” part. I think the decision to serve is between the young man and God. I’ve known people who prayerfully decided that they should do something other than serve a mission, such as joining the military. I don’t second-guess such decisions or call them sinful (well, putting on my church member hat for a minute). If the spirit tells someone a mission is not for them, I have a hard time labeling them sinful. 

Edited August 9, 2022 by jkwilliams

[pogi]

26 minutes ago, Fether said:

I’ve seen probably a dozen different definitions. For the sake of this conversation, it seems we agree on how one ought to feel

I don't think we do agree that missionaries who choose not to go on a mission necessarily ought to feel that way.  

Edited August 9, 2022 by pogi

[Danzo]

13 minutes ago, Fether said:

There is a difference between “I can’t serve” and “I am choosing not to serve because I don’t want to”

Choosing to serve and choosing not to serve is something we do our whole lives, not just when we are 19.  Sometimes we choose not to serve.  When we do so, it would be a sin. But it is no different when we are 19 vs when we are 40.  Very few of us will accept all opportunities to serve, whether as a calling or as prompted by the Lord (were the priests in the parable Jesus told accepting   or rejecting their calling when they kept themselves ritually clean by ignoring the Samaritan on the road).  All of us, I think miss out on opportunities to serve.  This does not condemn us forever, it just means that we have the opportunity to repent when we get to that point.  The Lord always gives us second (and third, and 7 times 70) chances if we will repent. 

[Fair Dinkum]

2 hours ago, Fether said:

 

@Fair Dinkum

 

Are just pretending prophets since Spencer w kimball haven’t been saying this?

“Today I reaffirm strongly that the Lord has asked every worthy, able young man to prepare for and serve a mission. For Latter-day Saint young men, missionary service is a priesthood responsibility.” - Pres Nelson

“The question has been often asked, Is the mission program one of compulsion? And the answer, of course, is no. Everyone is given his free agency. The question is asked: Should every young man fill a mission? And the answer of the Church is yes, and the answer of the Lord is yes. Enlarging this answer we say: Certainly every male member of the Church should fill a mission, like he should pay his tithing, like he should attend his meetings, like he should keep his life clean and free from the ugliness of the world and plan a celestial marriage in the temple of the Lord” (Spencer W. Kimball, “Planning for a Full and Abundant Life”, Ensign, May 1974, 86).
 

“Earlier prophets have taught that every able, worthy young man should serve a full-time mission. I emphasize this need today” (Howard W. Hunter, “Follow the Son of God”, Ensign, Nov. 1994, 87).
 

“The Lord wants every young man to serve a full-time mission. Currently, only a fifth of the eligible young men in the Church are serving full-time missions. This is not pleasing to the Lord. We can do better. We must do better. Not only should a mission be regarded as a priesthood duty, but every young man should look forward to this experience with great joy and anticipation. What a privilege—what a sacred privilege—to serve the Lord full time for two years with all your heart, might, mind, and strength.

You can do nothing more important. School can wait. Scholarships can be deferred. Occupational goals can be postponed. Yes, even temple marriage should wait until after a young man has served an honorable full-time mission for the Lord.” (Ensign, May 1986, pp. 44–45).

“In fulfillment of this command, able young men in the Church have a duty to prepare spiritually, physically, and emotionally to serve as full-time missionaries.” (https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/missionary-work?lang=eng)

 

 

you can complain and disagree all you want, but let’s stop pretending this isnt a command from God. Or at the very least, admit out loud that you don’t think the Prophet speaks for God.

No not at all...but the heat has been turned up at the ward level

[Danzo]

1 minute ago, Fair Dinkum said:

No not at all...but the heat has been turned up at the ward level

I think many of us have differing opinions on what "turning up the heat" is. Can you be more descriptive?

Are we talking dirty looks?

Interviews every week?

Thumbscrews?

[bluebell]

19 minutes ago, Fether said:

Your analogy kinda falls flat seeing that the first commandments God gave was to multiply and replenish the earth.

I'm perfectly ok with you not agreeing with me.  It doesn't change anything from my perspective.  I obviously have a different view of sin and God than you do.  No worries.

[bluebell]

15 minutes ago, pogi said:

That is the definition of toxic shame, which is distinguished from regular shame.  See John Bradshaw's Healing the Shame that Binds You.  

 

How does Bradshaw separate guilt and regular shame?

[Fair Dinkum]

59 minutes ago, Calm said:

Unfortunately there are some in the Church who are teaching a mission is mandatory.  A few weeks ago a stake presidency counselor was preaching his version.  Given the shocked response of a certain segment of the online Mormon (talking about cultural associations of all types, not the Church) community, it must be unusual though.  This is a transcript.  The clip was on FB and Twitter and I have no desire to try and dig it up.  It might be linked if we talked about it here, which I thought we did though no one has referred to it in this thread, so I may be misremembering.

The SP counselor:

 

🤮  This is EXACTLY the kind of rhetoric my grandson has been exposed to.  It's turned him from an active believing member into someone wondering if there is any place left for him in the church

[Fair Dinkum]

56 minutes ago, Fether said:

Alma 42:29-30

”only let your sins trouble you, with that trouble which shall bring you down unto repentance.
O my son, I desire that ye should deny the justice of God no more. Do not endeavor to excuse yourself in the least point because of your sins, by denying the justice of God; but do you let the justice of God, and his mercy, and his long-suffering have full sway in your heart; and let it bring you down to the dust in humility.”

Gawd I hope you're never in a leadership position with influence over young men

[Fether]

5 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said:

Gawd I hope you're never in a leadership position with influence over young men

Again, I’m talking to people who are rejecting the words of the prophets. I wouldnt talk this way to youth who are are struggling with their own faith.

[Danzo]

5 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said:

Gawd I hope you're never in a leadership position with influence over young men

For someone who is opposed others judging young men, you seem pretty free with your judgment. 

 

Although I disagree with many of his statements , I don't presume to know him (or her) well enough to make that kind of Judgement. 

[Fether]

14 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said:

No not at all...but the heat has been turned up at the ward level

It’s been turned up because our leaders and adults are teaching that young men don’t really need to serve missions if they don’t feel like it

Edited August 9, 2022 by Fether

[jkwilliams]

Just now, Fether said:

It’s been turned up because our leaders and adults are teaching that young men don’t really need to serve missions if they don’t feel like it

Which leaders have been teaching that? 

[Fether]

22 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I suppose where we are at odds is over the “refusing” part. I think the decision to serve is between the young man and God. I’ve known people who prayerfully decided that they should do something other than serve a mission, such as joining the military. I don’t second-guess such decisions or call them sinful (well, putting on my church member hat for a minute). If the spirit tells someone a mission is not for them, I have a hard time labeling them sinful. 

And I have a hard time seeing how this way of thought is in line with what the prophets teach.

Sure, if 1/10 young men are prompted to not serve, then ya, I’m on bored, there are exceptions.

But when so many young men are refusing to serve for one reason or another, there is a problem with how we are teaching this.

[Fether]

1 minute ago, jkwilliams said:

Which leaders have been teaching that? 

Leaders in wards that are afraid to teach that all young men are called by God to serve missions.

[jkwilliams]

Just now, Fether said:

And I have a hard time seeing how this way of thought is in line with what the prophets teach.

Sure, if 1/10 young men are prompted to not serve, then ya, I’m on bored, there are exceptions.

But when so many young men are refusing to serve for one reason or another, there is a problem with how we are teaching this.

I’m not involved in teaching them and don’t plan on being involved, so you don’t have much to worry about. 

[pogi]

23 minutes ago, bluebell said:

How does Bradshaw separate guilt and regular shame?

I don't know how to copy the graph, but there is a good comparison chart on page 22:

https://creativegrowth.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/bradshaw_shame-1.pdf

[jkwilliams]

Just now, Fether said:

Leaders in wards that are afraid to teach that all young men are called by God to serve missions.

I’m not involved enough to have seen that. 

[Fair Dinkum]

9 minutes ago, Danzo said:

For someone who is opposed others judging young men, you seem pretty free with your judgment. 

 

Although I disagree with many of his statements , I don't presume to know him (or her) well enough to make that kind of Judgement. 

If his comments in this thread are contestant with his views, then I would never want any young man related to me any where near his form of church leadership rhetoric

Edited August 9, 2022 by Fair Dinkum

[manol]

6 hours ago, Fair Dinkum said:

... he is feeling so much pressure to serve a mission that he is now questioning how he can even attend church for fear of constant shaming & harassment.

I was extremely fortunate in that nobody in a position of authority tried to pressure me into going, such that when I DID decide to go, it felt like "my choice" rather than "giving in to pressure".  I have always been rebel enough to push back against anything that smacked of coercion.

That being said, there was one person who did influence me towards going, though not from a traditional position of authority.  She was a year or so younger than me and one day after church, out of the blue (I can say that because our ward had sent out only one missionary in the previous twenty-something years), she asked me if I was planning to serve a mission.  And let's just say that her opinion mattered to me at the time.

 

 

[Fair Dinkum]

2 minutes ago, manol said:

I was extremely fortunate in that nobody in a position of authority tried to pressure me into going, such that when I DID decide to go, it felt like "my choice" rather than "giving in to pressure".  I have always been rebel enough to push back against anything that smacked of coercion.

That being said, there was one person who did influence me towards going, though not from a traditional position of authority.  She was a year or so younger than me and one day after church, out of the blue (I can say that because our ward had sent out only one missionary in the previous twenty-something years), she asked me if I was planning to serve a mission.  And let's just say that her opinion mattered to me at the time.

 

 

I have always responded better to loving supportive motivation than corrosive, thumbnail screws motivation.

[jkwilliams]

Just now, Fair Dinkum said:

I have always responded better to loving supportive motivation than corrosive, thumbnail screws motivation.

I don’t know what your mission was like, but generally the missionaries I knew who were there out of social or family pressure were the worst missionaries. Our mission president would send them to “punishment” areas in the middle of nowhere where there was no phone. Results were often disastrous. 

[Danzo]

8 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said:

If his comments in this thread are contestant with his views, then I would never want any young man related to me any where near his form of church leadership rhetoric

Almost no one in real life acts like they do on the internet. 

The Internet tends to bring out the worst in everyone. 

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, Danzo said:

Almost no one in real life acts like they do on the internet. 

The Internet tends to bring out the worst in everyone. 

I dunno. I’m much nicer here than IRL.

[Fair Dinkum]

7 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I don’t know what your mission was like, but generally the missionaries I knew who were there out of social or family pressure were the worst missionaries. Our mission president would send them to “punishment” areas in the middle of nowhere where there was no phone. Results were often disastrous. 

I was fortunate and won the golden ticket.  My mission was heaven on earth