The Continued Decline of Young Men Willing to Serve a Mission

[Fether]

Just now, Rock_N_Roll said:

I’ve read the entire thread so, yes, I was caught up on the convo before I started talking. I just don’t think your point that serving missions was something encouraged but not a commandment until the early 70’s, then suddenly became a commandment and considered a sin if one didn’t serve, holds water. Sorry, not convinced. Not serving a mission is not sin.

I served in the early eighties because I wanted to. Not because I thought I would be sinning if I didn’t.

Do you believe rejecting the words of the prophets is a sin?

 

[Danzo]

2 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

That’s pretty much been my experience in the church. This vehemence about covenants and commandment is foreign to me. 

Since the church is made up of many different people, it shouldn't surprise us that there is the occasional Jerk.  In fact, it is quite possible that I have been that jerk on occasion.  There isn't any magic spell that keeps idiots and jerks out of the building (or even people with more serious problems).   Perhaps we should be glad that those people attend.  They are some of the people that need the gospel more than anyone.   They also help us out by teaching us patience and longsuffering. 

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, Fether said:

Do you believe rejecting the words of the prophets is a sin?

 

Saying I’ve never heard missions are a commandment and part of the baptismal covenant is not rejecting the words of the prophets. By that measure, I’ve sinned plenty, but not in this case. 

[Fether]

Just now, jkwilliams said:

Saying I’ve never heard missions are a commandment and part of the baptismal covenant is not rejecting the words of the prophets. By that measure, I’ve sinned plenty, but not in this case. 

Do you think the prophets think it is a priesthood duty to serve a mission?

Do you think the prophets see neglecting priesthood duty is a sin?

[ksfisher]

9 minutes ago, Calm said:

Unfortunately there are some in the Church who are teaching a mission is mandatory.  A few weeks ago a stake presidency counselor was preaching his version.  Given the shocked response of a certain segment of the online Mormon (talking about cultural associations of all types, not the Church) community, it must be unusual though.  This is a transcript.  The clip was on FB and Twitter and I have no desire to try and dig it up.  It might be linked if we talked about it here, which I thought we did though no one has referred to it in this thread, so I may be misremembering.

The SP counselor:

 

The wording seems poorly chosen.  Of course young men have a choice.  Everything we do in the church we have a choice in.  Every time we do good we are making a choice.  Every time we sin it is by choice.  Heaven or hell is a choice.

[bluebell]

11 minutes ago, Calm said:

Unfortunately there are some in the Church who are teaching a mission is mandatory.  A few weeks ago a stake presidency counselor was preaching his version.  Given the shocked response of a certain segment of the online Mormon (talking about cultural associations of all types, not the Church) community, it must be unusual though.  This is a transcript.  The clip was on FB and Twitter and I have no desire to try and dig it up.  It might be linked if we talked about it here, which I thought we did though no one has referred to it in this thread, so I may be misremembering.

The SP counselor:

 

I hate when people make up stuff (like this SP did with trying to pit free agency and moral agency against each other) and then act like everyone listening to them has a divine duty to accept their conclusions as fact.

[ksfisher]

1 minute ago, Fether said:

Do you think the prophets think it is a priesthood duty to serve a mission?

Do you think the prophets see neglecting priesthood duty is a sin?

“Today I reaffirm strongly that the Lord has asked every worthy, able young man to prepare for and serve a mission. For Latter-day Saint young men, missionary service is a priesthood responsibility.” - Pres Nelson

That's quoting from one of your posts.

Every worthy, able young man should prepare. 

"missionary service is a priesthood responsibility."  President Nelson doesn't say anything about sin. 

As I said before, define able.

[jkwilliams]

3 minutes ago, Fether said:

Do you think the prophets think it is a priesthood duty to serve a mission?

Do you think the prophets see neglecting priesthood duty is a sin?

What I know is what I’ve been taught. What I haven’t been taught is that serving a mission is a commandment and is something you promise to do at baptism. I think I could get in trouble imagining what prophets think. 

[bluebell]

9 minutes ago, Fether said:

Do you think the prophets think it is a priesthood duty to serve a mission?

Do you think the prophets see neglecting priesthood duty is a sin?

I think that for some young men, it probably is a sin if they decide not to go. 

I also think that we, from the outside looking in, can't tell which young men those would be.  So while it might be a sin for some, the designation is completely useless because we can't righteously apply it to anyone anyway.

[Fether]

1 minute ago, bluebell said:

I think that for some young men, it probably is a sin if they decide not to go. 

I also think that we, from the outside looking in, can't tell which young men those would be.  So while it might be a sin for some, the designation is completely useless because we can't righteously apply it to anyone anyway.

I agree. I’m not worried about judging specific men, I am talking about the general rule

[Fether]

9 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

“Today I reaffirm strongly that the Lord has asked every worthy, able young man to prepare for and serve a mission. For Latter-day Saint young men, missionary service is a priesthood responsibility.” - Pres Nelson

That's quoting from one of your posts.

Every worthy, able young man should prepare. 

"missionary service is a priesthood responsibility."  President Nelson doesn't say anything about sin. 

As I said before, define able.

Worthy. Then submit application to serve and if the church finds you physically or mentally unfit, they will tell you.

[Fether]

7 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

What I know is what I’ve been taught. What I haven’t been taught is that serving a mission is a commandment and is something you promise to do at baptism. I think I could get in trouble imagining what prophets think. 

I find that when people dodge questions, it’s because they realize they are wrong and don’t want to admit it.

[jkwilliams]

Just now, Fether said:

I find that when people dodge questions, it’s because they realize they are wrong and don’t want to admit it.

Nope, I’ve been very clear about my never hearing that serving a mission is a commandment because we covenant to do so at baptism. That is the issue. What I think the prophets think is not particularly relevant. 

[pogi]

41 minutes ago, Fether said:

Alma 42:29-30

”only let your sins trouble you, with that trouble which shall bring you down unto repentance.
O my son, I desire that ye should deny the justice of God no more. Do not endeavor to excuse yourself in the least point because of your sins, by denying the justice of God; but do you let the justice of God, and his mercy, and his long-suffering have full sway in your heart; and let it bring you down to the dust in humility.”

So, it looks like you are walking back your comment that "there should be no shame".  Is that fair?  You seem to be pushing the shame bit now. 

Edited August 9, 2022 by pogi

[Duncan]

 In all honesty I think people are at least thinking about going if their friends go on a mission. They see what actually happens and see how excited the person gets and that can maybe initiate a conversation about a mission. Money is a factor-if missions were cheaper? besides of which what happens to people who go on a mission and then come home and go inactive can hinder someone's desire to serve. Same thing happened in WW1, when the first soldiers came back, who signed up in 1914, others saw how some were mutilated and thought, forget it-I don't want to be blind and be in a wheelchair for the rest of my life. So, examples can be both positive and negative

[Danzo]

3 minutes ago, Fether said:

Do you believe rejecting the words of the prophets is a sin?

 

Rejecting words of the prophet is a sin, but we have to decide for the ourselves, the best way to respond according to our personal situation.   The prophet issues general commandments because he talks to the entire church.  We should respect and listen to his council.  But remember, these are general commandments and the Prophet doesn't not issue specific commandments to individuals most of the time.  It is up to us to take the general commandments, pray about them and find out what our heavenly father wants us to do individually.   For some the lord may not want them to go on a mission at this time. Sometimes it is because they are not ready for the mission.  It may be because of earlier challenges and decisions or even sins.  Sometimes the church says to people that they cannot serve a mission for various reasons.  

I think the best way to follow the prophet in this regard is to decide to share the gospel in the best way we know how to given our circumstances. The lord will provide us a way to serve, be it full time mission  or otherwise if we have the desire.

A nephew of mine couldn't serve a mission due to some things he had trouble with in his life.   He ended up joining the army instead and has already baptized two of his fellow soldiers. Should he have kept himself worthy to serve a mission? yes, but the Lord, knowing his weakness and knowing of his desire to serve prepared a way for him to share the gospel despite his faults and sins.  I just hope and pray that I can instrument in the hands of the Lord despite my weakness and sins.  

[Fether]

3 minutes ago, pogi said:

So, it looks like you are walking back your comment that "there should be no shame".  Is that fair?  You seem to be pushing the shame bit now. 

I define them differently. 
 

guilt: what I did was bad and I need to fix it

shame: I am bad for what I did

we should feel guilt. We should not feel shame

[Fether]

4 minutes ago, Danzo said:

A nephew of mine couldn't serve

There is a difference between “I can’t serve” and “I am choosing not to serve because I don’t want to”

[bluebell]

3 minutes ago, Fether said:

I agree. I’m not worried about judging specific men, I am talking about the general rule

I don't believe that it's generally a sin for a young man not to serve (as in, it's a sin more often than it's not), which is why I don't completely agree with your view on it. 

I kind of look on it like I would for an otherwise righteous couple to decide not to have children for selfish reasons (I'm not going to define "selfish" in this analogy).  I do believe it is an able couple's responsibility to have children, but I don't necessarily believe it's a sin if they don't.

I think that choosing not to for selfish reasons will be a detriment to them, but not because they broke a commandment and never repented.  More so because they made a choice that stops them from experiencing the natural blessings and spiritual/mental/emotional growth that otherwise would have been theirs.

[Fether]

6 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Nope, I’ve been very clear about my never hearing that serving a mission is a commandment because we covenant to do so at baptism. That is the issue. What I think the prophets think is not particularly relevant. 

Would you mind answering those questions I posed above?

or nah?

[Fether]

4 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I don't believe that it's generally a sin for a young man not to serve (as in, it's a sin more often than it's not), which is why I don't completely agree with your view on it. 

I kind of look on it like I would for an otherwise righteous couple to decide not to have children for selfish reasons (I'm not going to define "selfish" in this analogy).  I do believe it is an able couple's responsibility to have children, but I don't necessarily believe it's a sin if they don't.

I think that choosing not to for selfish reasons will be a detriment to them, but not because they broke a commandment and never repented.  More so because they made a choice that stops them from experiencing the natural blessings and spiritual/mental/emotional growth that otherwise would have been theirs.

Your analogy kinda falls flat seeing that the first commandments God gave was to multiply and replenish the earth.

[jkwilliams]

Just now, Fether said:

Would you mind answering those questions I posed above?

or nah?

Maybe you could explain how those questions relate to missionary service being a commandment that we covenant to do at baptism. 

[Fether]

1 minute ago, jkwilliams said:

Maybe you could explain how those questions relate to missionary service being a commandment that we covenant to do at baptism. 

You said

”it is not a sin to not serve a mission”

 

My line of thinking is

 

1- It is a sin to neglect priesthood duty

2- Prophets have said serving a full time mission is a priesthood duty

3- refusing to serve a full time mission is neglecting a priesthood dury

4- not serving a mission is a sin

 

Where am I mistaken?

 

[pogi]

22 minutes ago, Fether said:

I define them differently. 
 

guilt: what I did was bad and I need to fix it

shame: I am bad for what I did

we should feel guilt. We should not feel shame

That is the definition of toxic shame, which is distinguished from regular shame.  See John Bradshaw's Healing the Shame that Binds You.  

 

[Fether]

1 minute ago, pogi said:

That is the definition of toxic shame, which is distinguished from regular shame.  See John Bradshaw's Healing the Shame that Binds You.  

 

I’ve seen probably a dozen different definitions. For the sake of this conversation, it seems we agree on how one ought to feel