Teancum Posted August 9, 2022 Posted August 9, 2022 1 minute ago, jkwilliams said: I was fortunate in that my parents never put any pressure on me to serve a mission. Halfway through my mission, they changed from 18 months to two years. I called home to ask my parents if it was ok for me to stay 6 extra months (I only had enough money of my own for 18 months), and my dad said, “Why would you want to do that?” 😂 No pressure at all form my parents. They were not active at all. They always said it was my decision and they would support me either way. But given my make up and personality the pressure to serve was not good for me. I was a welder after high school and had a full time job. I would debate all day long in my mind every day at work about whether or n ot to serve a mission because the job did not take a lot of thought to do really. It was agony.
jkwilliams Posted August 9, 2022 Posted August 9, 2022 Just now, Teancum said: No pressure at all form my parents. They were not active at all. They always said it was my decision and they would support me either way. But given my make up and personality the pressure to serve was not good for me. I was a welder after high school and had a full time job. I would debate all day long in my mind every day at work about whether or n ot to serve a mission because the job did not take a lot of thought to do really. It was agony. I have to say I was kind of proud to be the first Williams in a few generations to serve a mission. I was one of those kids that tried so hard to do everything right, so I think most of the pressure to serve came from myself. 1
ksfisher Posted August 9, 2022 Posted August 9, 2022 47 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: It certainly wasn't emphasized as a responsibility until the days of Spencer W. Kimball. According to my dad, when he was at BYU, the guys who went on missions were generally the "zealots" (his word). I don't think that until that time it was possible to send too many young men on missions. The 20th century had experienced WW1, Spanish Flu, the Great Depression, WW2, the Korean War, and the Vietnam War. All of which limited the number of missionaries that could either serve or afford the cost of serving. 2
Duncan Posted August 9, 2022 Posted August 9, 2022 Something the used to do over a 100 years ago is the SP sent a list of potential missionaries to the 1st Presidency. I don't know how but they then called some or all of these men on missions, they decided then if they wanted to go or not-so agency was still there. Maybe they should that again?! 1
Fether Posted August 9, 2022 Posted August 9, 2022 8 minutes ago, Teancum said: I you sign the contract with the full disclosure and the ability to consent then yes. If not no. 8 year olds being baptized do not have full disclosure nor are they able to consent to the baptismal covenants of their own free will. Nor do boys ordained at 11 years old. So yo use that as a club to shame them into serving a mission is wrong, manipulative, mind control techniques and so on. This would be a fine argument if not for the fact that they recovenant with the sacrament every week of their life. if someone, age 21, signs a contract, would they not be morally obliged to follow through with it?
jkwilliams Posted August 9, 2022 Posted August 9, 2022 Just now, Fether said: This would be a fine argument if not for the fact that they recovenant with the sacrament every week of their life. if someone, age 21, signs a contract, would they not be morally obliged to follow through with it? Do you think a kid taking the sacrament believes he’s thereby committing to serve a mission? Sounds a bit far-fetched to me. 1
bluebell Posted August 9, 2022 Posted August 9, 2022 23 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: Frankly, I was proud of him for standing up for himself. He never had before. Really good kid, smart and kind. Awful parents. It's always so weird to me that some parents struggle with this kind of stuff. But I guess it probably should be. There are a lot of really screwed up adults out there.
Rain Posted August 9, 2022 Posted August 9, 2022 19 minutes ago, Teancum said: I you sign the contract with the full disclosure and the ability to consent then yes. If not no. 8 year olds being baptized do not have full disclosure nor are they able to consent to the baptismal covenants of their own free will. Nor do boys ordained at 11 years old. So yo use that as a club to shame them into serving a mission is wrong, manipulative, mind control techniques and so on. As a teen I did not want to serve a mission. I was harangued CONTSTANTLY about it by bishops, YM presidents, ward members, seminary teachers, RMs in my ward and so on. It was quite frankly over the top and the anxiety of trying to decide to go on one or not was pretty heavy on me as an 18 and then 19 year old. That's how I felt as a mom - mothers who know. The faith of moms and all. If I had enough faith my son would go right? So much anxiety at that time with my oldest. By that time I was much better with allowing him agency, but getting to that point then I felt much more pressure to have "faith". Only problem was I didn't understand internally that faith doesn't change agency even if I understood it logically. It was so much easier with my second son who did end up going because I realized the world wouldn't fall apart and I wasn't an awful, unfaithful mom if he didn't go. 19 minutes ago, Teancum said: I did end up going by they way because I thought it was God telling me to go. But it was really conceding the the pressure and feeling relief over not having the guilt and shame over not going. 1
jkwilliams Posted August 9, 2022 Posted August 9, 2022 (edited) 3 minutes ago, bluebell said: It's always so weird to me that some parents struggle with this kind of stuff. But I guess it probably should be. There are a lot of really screwed up adults out there. They were not cut out to be parents. The other son has been in and out of jail. The father died a number of years ago without ever having had any contact with their son. Broke my heart. Edited August 9, 2022 by jkwilliams 1
Rain Posted August 9, 2022 Posted August 9, 2022 2 minutes ago, bluebell said: It's always so weird to me that some parents struggle with this kind of stuff. But I guess it probably should be. There are a lot of really screwed up adults out there. Some of it comes from learning from your parents and grandparents. It can be tough to break the cycle when you don't know it is wrong and you don't know how to do it right when you figure it out. 2
bluebell Posted August 9, 2022 Posted August 9, 2022 (edited) 23 minutes ago, ksfisher said: I don't think that until that time it was possible to send too many young men on missions. The 20th century had experienced WW1, Spanish Flu, the Great Depression, WW2, the Korean War, and the Vietnam War. All of which limited the number of missionaries that could either serve or afford the cost of serving. We forget how nuts most of the 19th century was. We get all "end of days" because of the things that we've had to deal with, and forget about that one generation that got to live through 1) WWI, 2) the spanish flu, 3) the great depression, 4) WWII, 5) the Korean War, and 6) the Vietnam War. And let's not forget that the last survivor of the Civil War died in 1956, so that you can almost add in the Civil War to that list as well. Edited August 9, 2022 by bluebell 2
Danzo Posted August 9, 2022 Posted August 9, 2022 A couple of observations. 1. I think serving a mission is a good Idea and I recommend those who are willing and able to serve do so. I did so and and it blessed me. 2. Not being a full time missionary should not stop us from doing missionary work. most of my best missionary moments have happened to me after my mission (I have baptized more people after my mission than during my mission). As the scripture says anyone who have a desire to serve God is called to the work. 3. Young men who are willing and able are asked by the church to serve a full time mission. Like any call, they can accept or reject it. God is merciful and will fully forgive any person who after rejecting a full time mission, desires to serve God. A mission doesn't make a latter day saint and not serving one does not break one. The command to be a missionary doesn't start with a full time mission and doesn't end when one is released. Both people who are serving a full time mission and those who are not have times when they are devoted to missionary work and times when they are not. The goal is always to repent and strive to do better. That is the same for Full time missionaries and those who are not. I have found God is merciful and has anticipated my mistakes and sins and has still provided a way for me to bless with missionary opportunities despite all of my wrong choices. I believe God will do the same for those young men who don't serve full time missions (for whatever reason) yet now and in the future still want to serve God and his children. 1
Fair Dinkum Posted August 9, 2022 Author Posted August 9, 2022 37 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: I have to say I was kind of proud to be the first Williams in a few generations to serve a mission. I was one of those kids that tried so hard to do everything right, so I think most of the pressure to serve came from myself. And I know that you had a very difficult mission experience...
Fether Posted August 9, 2022 Posted August 9, 2022 36 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: Do you think a kid taking the sacrament believes he’s thereby committing to serve a mission? Sounds a bit far-fetched to me. No, but a 21 year old is. You can serve a mission up till age 26. You have 8 years of taking the sacrament as an adult
jkwilliams Posted August 9, 2022 Posted August 9, 2022 1 minute ago, Fair Dinkum said: And I know that you had a very difficult mission experience... Not really any different from anyone else in my mission. I’ve always thought it funny that people who weren’t in my mission think my book is exaggerated and maybe even fictional. A couple of mission friends have told me they felt like I downplayed things. I figure that means I got it about right. 2
jkwilliams Posted August 9, 2022 Posted August 9, 2022 1 minute ago, Fether said: No, but a 21 year old is. You can serve a mission up till age 26. You have 8 years of taking the sacrament as an adult Are they teachings kids now that the baptismal covenant is a promise to serve a mission? I go to church pretty regularly, but it’s stuff like this that makes me think things have really changed since I walked away. I’m glad my kids didn’t get that kind of pressure.
Fair Dinkum Posted August 9, 2022 Author Posted August 9, 2022 (edited) 45 minutes ago, Fether said: This would be a fine argument if not for the fact that they recovenant with the sacrament every week of their life. if someone, age 21, signs a contract, would they not be morally obliged to follow through with it? Frankly, this is the kind of mental mind games the church needs to get rid of. How can someone who's parents have them baptized at age 8 obligate themselves to serve a mission??? sorry but this this just plain stupid. No one at age 8 is obligated to be held to a life time of commitments because their parent had them baptized. Edited August 9, 2022 by Fair Dinkum 2
Fether Posted August 9, 2022 Posted August 9, 2022 9 minutes ago, Danzo said: 3. Young men who are willing and able are asked by the church to serve a full time mission. Like any call, they can accept or reject it. God is merciful and will fully forgive any person who after rejecting a full time mission, desires to serve God. A mission doesn't make a latter day saint and not serving one does not break one. The command to be a missionary doesn't start with a full time mission and doesn't end when one is released. Both people who are serving a full time mission and those who are not have times when they are devoted to missionary work and times when they are not. The goal is always to repent and strive to do better. That is the same for Full time missionaries and those who are not. I have found God is merciful and has anticipated my mistakes and sins and has still provided a way for me to bless with missionary opportunities despite all of my wrong choices. I believe God will do the same for those young men who don't serve full time missions (for whatever reason) yet now and in the future still want to serve God and his children. I’m incredibly irritated by this type of sophistry and acting as if it is all an appropriate alternative. The Church, the Prophet, all the leadership. They are all saying the same thing. It is every young man’s duty to serve a full time mission. You are saying “it’s ok to sin today as long as you repent later” (you do realize repenting of refusing missionary service requires you to take the stance that it is all able young men’s duties to serve missions and to preach such things, right?) -2
jkwilliams Posted August 9, 2022 Posted August 9, 2022 Just now, Fair Dinkum said: Frankly, this is the kind of mental mind games the church needs to get rid of. How can someone who's parents have them baptist at age 8 obligate themselves to serve a mission...sorry but this this just plain stupid. No one at age 8 is obligated to be held to a life time of commitments because their parent had them baptized. Are they telling kids, well, now that you’re 16 you should know that 8 years ago you promised to serve a mission? This is so foreign to my experience in the church. 1
Fether Posted August 9, 2022 Posted August 9, 2022 1 minute ago, Fair Dinkum said: Frankly, this is the kind of mental mind games the church needs to get rid of. How can someone who's parents have them baptist at age 8 obligate themselves to serve a mission...sorry but this this just plain stupid. No one at age 8 is obligated to be held to a life time of commitments because their parent had them baptized. You completely missed the point. Every time you take the sacrament, you are resigning up to be a Latter Day Saint and obey God’s commandments. If you take the sacrament when you are 21 years old, you are covenanting your obey God, and God has declared all young men need to serve missions
Fether Posted August 9, 2022 Posted August 9, 2022 Just now, jkwilliams said: Are they telling kids, well, now that you’re 16 you should know that 8 years ago you promised to serve a mission? This is so foreign to my experience in the church. I understand basic number recognition may be hard for you, but you are an adult for 8 years before you age out of being a missionary. You have 8 years as an adult to choose to serve a mission. There are 8 years of adulthood on which a person can choose to start their mission Does that make sense?
Fether Posted August 9, 2022 Posted August 9, 2022 4 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: Are they teachings kids now that the baptismal covenant is a promise to serve a mission? I go to church pretty regularly, but it’s stuff like this that makes me think things have really changed since I walked away. I’m glad my kids didn’t get that kind of pressure. Baptismal covenant: obey God commandments God commands all young men to serve missions all young men should serve missions. too complicated? additionally, when endowed, you covenant to consecrate all you have to the building of Zion.
jkwilliams Posted August 9, 2022 Posted August 9, 2022 Just now, Fether said: I understand basic number recognition may be hard for you, but you are an adult for 8 years before you age out of being a missionary. You have 8 years as an adult to choose to serve a mission. There are 8 years of adulthood on which a person can choose to start their mission Does that make sense? I guess I missed the part where serving a mission is a commandment and therefore part of the baptismal covenant. Again, this is way different from the church I know. 1
Danzo Posted August 9, 2022 Posted August 9, 2022 1 minute ago, Fether said: I’m incredibly irritated by this type of sophistry and acting as if it is all an appropriate alternative. The Church, the Prophet, all the leadership. They are all saying the same thing. It is every young man’s duty to serve a full time mission. You are saying “it’s ok to sin today as long as you repent later” (you do realize repenting of refusing missionary service requires you to take the stance that it is all able young men’s duties to serve missions and to preach such things, right?) I am not saying it is ok to sin. I am saying that every one of us is going to sin. The plan of salvation saves us from our sins. For some of us the sin may be not serving a mission for others of us it is being judgmental on internet forums. The good news (gospel) is that Christ has atoned for our sins and we can be forgiven on conditions of repentance. A young man not serving a mission does not condemn them if they repent. A young man serving a mission doesn't save them either. 2
jkwilliams Posted August 9, 2022 Posted August 9, 2022 Just now, Fether said: Baptismal covenant: obey God commandments God commands all young men to serve missions all young men should serve missions. too complicated? additionally, when endowed, you covenant to consecrate all you have to the building of Zion. Honest question: can you cite something to indicate that serving a mission is a commandment? At this point, I’m not regretting at all that my three boys weren’t exposed to this stuff. 1
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