The Grooming Epidemic is Spreading

[Chum]

Posting as someone been thru sexual abuse as a kid, I know a bit about what actual grooming is. 

It when someone older mentally corrals someone younger, to make them less resistant to non-consensual sex.

Those conservatives who endlessly infer grooming has something to do with LGBT community are bald-faced lying - except perhaps those who are willfully delusional or believe misinformation that is trivially disproven.

I kind of wish this generation of conservatives would embrace the conservative principles I once adhered to. The principles that wouldn't allow people to leverage the pain from kids' abuse, just to divide people for political gain.

I don't see how anyone can bring this utterly worthless crap to the table and expect to have an inch of respect from anyone.

Edited August 15, 2022 by Chum

[BlueDreams]

On 8/12/2022 at 12:59 PM, LoudmouthMormon said:

Heh.  Reading this gave me serious Hulu Banner of Heaven vibes.

You know what it didn't give me?  Vibes having anything to do with my church, my faith, any of the LDS couples I know.  I've probably heard a handful of stories of teen boys thinking crap like this.  I've never heard of one making it actually through a few years of marriage.

Unfortunately, I have (though not this structural explicit). Luckily fairly rarely. I would also say they aren’t cases that state much about my faith or most LDS couples. Moreso a mindset that values control to cover up their insecurities/problems. They tend to find any message anywhere that help validate their impulses, however grotesque. 
 

with luv, 

BD 

[LoudmouthMormon]

1 hour ago, Chum said:

Posting as someone been thru sexual abused as a kid, I know a bit about what actual grooming is. 

It when someone older mentally corrals someone younger, to make them less resistant to non-consensual sex.

I do not discount your story at all.  Perhaps you could do me the same courtesy here:

Quote

Those conservatives who endlessly infer grooming has something to do with LGBT community are bald-faced lying - perhaps excepting those who are willfully delusional or easily suckered into stupidly believing misinformation that is trivially disproven.

So, I hang out with some folks who consider themselves diversity allies.  They're quite progressive, close ties to the alphabet community, big on stating their pronouns, one is a genderfluid individual.  A month or two ago, they were excitedly discussing about how great it was that the barriers of acceptance were coming down for the folks in the drag community.  I asked them about the presence of children at these shows, and they thought it was great - didn't dent their enthusiasm at all.  I explained a bit about the sexually explicit nature of a couple of videos I had seen, where there was a young pre-teen girl up on stage twerking explicitly.  They sort of dismissed my claim that it was that bad.  One of them said they were considering taking their kid to one of the shows in Colorado Springs, and recommended I go check it out too to see it wasn't that bad. 

Recently, I had a good 1:1 conversation with one of these folks.  We've got a good relationship of mutual respect growing.  I introduced the topic by stating that in all my decades of discussing and arguing with folks, I've always found it reassuring that no matter what side of what fence I was talking to/arguing with, one thing we could always agree on, was children are too young for much of the mature sexually explicit topics.  He agreed.  Then I reminded him about the earlier discussion about taking kids to drag shows, and I talked about anecdotal news stories I'd seen from elementary schools.  A library with an LGBT positive viewpoint, with illustrations of a teen boy performing oral sex on another teen boy.   Efforts to explain gender identities to 3rd graders, exercises on having them pick their pronouns.  He immediately changed his tune from "of course everyone knows that kids are too young for such things", to "it's hard to have a good standard for everybody, because some kids are ready for such things at an earlier age".   He summed things up by saying the important thing, as barriers of discrimination come down and schools teach inclusivity and acceptance, is that parents communicate with their kids through the process.  

So, @Chum, I'm not 'endlessly' doing anything, and I'm not 'inferring' anything.  But do you believe I am bald-faced lying?

[Chum]

10 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

I'm not 'endlessly' doing anything, and I'm not 'inferring' anything.  But do you believe I am bald-faced lying?

Grooming is the term used to describe the situation where an older person (overwhelmingly male) attempts to weaken the resistance of a younger person for the explicit purpose of performing sexual acts on and/or with them.

The choice of that particular term as part of a wide ranging campaign to conflate something conservatives don't like with actual, physical child sexual abuse is beyond unconscionable.

Of the many, many terms conservatives could have chosen (conditioning, brainwashing, etc) to describe the scenario in their minds, they purposefully selected grooming - the one term we use to frame the sexual horror experienced by children whose lives are now shaped by it. To be okay with that is not okay.

To answer your question directly: If you are saying that some gender thing you don't like is the same thing as a person preparing a child to have unwanted sex with them, then yes. You're lying or willfully deluded or (at best) have foolishly succumbed to a particularly nefarious bit of (trivially refuted) misinformation. If you don't apply sexual grooming to something other than prep for actual acts of CSA, then what is there to discuss?

[Chum]

10 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

I do not discount your story at all.

In this case it wouldn't matter if you dismissed my story because there are millions of others that could easily substitute - and everyone reading this knows that.

[LoudmouthMormon]

2 hours ago, Chum said:

Grooming is the term used to describe the situation where an older person (overwhelmingly male) attempts to weaken the resistance of a younger person for the explicit purpose of performing sexual acts on and/or with them.

Again, that's a very good definition of the word.  We have no disagreement about what grooming is, or who is responsible for doing most of it.

 

13 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

I asked them about the presence of children at these shows, and they thought it was great - didn't dent their enthusiasm at all.  I explained a bit about the sexually explicit nature of a couple of videos I had seen, where there was a young pre-teen girl up on stage twerking explicitly.  They sort of dismissed my claim that it was that bad.

So I'm curious.  We're agreed that grooming is when an older person attempts to weaken the resistance of a younger person for the purpose of performing sexual acts on/with them.  When thinking about men dressing up a little girl in skimpy revealing attire and training her to twerk and undulate and whatnot on stage, do you not believe there is any grooming going on?  Do you join my progressive ally folks in dismissing this stuff as not that bad?

 

2 hours ago, Chum said:

If you are saying that some gender thing you don't like is the same thing as a person preparing a child to have unwanted sex with them, then yes. You're lying or willfully deluded or (at best)

"Some gender thing I don't like" = men who perform onstage in drag, dressing up a little girl in skimpy revealing attire and training her to twerk and undulate and whatnot on stage with them.  I don't care that it's a "gender thing".  I care that adults are doing this to a little girl.   

If you want to take issue with calling such behavior "grooming", well, ok.  What word would you use to describe what they're doing?  Do you figure there's no resistance weakening going on here?  Do you figure if the evening didn't result in pedophilia, then it's not grooming?  I'm honestly curious.

Edited August 15, 2022 by LoudmouthMormon

[Tacenda]

9 minutes ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Again, that's a very good definition of the word.  We have no disagreement about what grooming is, or who is responsible for doing most of it.

 

So I'm curious.  We're agreed that grooming is when an older person attempts to weaken the resistance of a younger person for the purpose of performing sexual acts on/with them.  When thinking about men dressing up a little girl in skimpy revealing attire and training her to twerk and undulate and whatnot on stage, do you not believe there is any grooming going on?  Do you join my progressive ally folks in dismissing this stuff as not that bad?

 

"Some gender thing I don't like" = men who perform onstage in drag, dressing up a little girl in skimpy revealing attire and training her to twerk and undulate and whatnot on stage with them.  I don't care that it's a "gender thing".  I care that adults are doing this to a little girl.   

If you want to take issue with calling such behavior "grooming", well, ok.  What word would you use to describe what they're doing?  Do you figure there's no resistance weakening going on here?  Do you figure if the evening didn't result in pedophilia, then it's not grooming?  I'm honestly curious.

I'm curious about the video with this girl, do you have a link?

[BlueDreams]

4 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

So I'm curious.  We're agreed that grooming is when an older person attempts to weaken the resistance of a younger person for the purpose of performing sexual acts on/with them.  When thinking about men dressing up a little girl in skimpy revealing attire and training her to twerk and undulate and whatnot on stage, do you not believe there is any grooming going on?  Do you join my progressive ally folks in dismissing this stuff as not that bad?

It's about intent, which is hard to tell just based on the context given. This may not be viewed as something arousing by the older person, but rather just a means of expression. Grooming can happen in several avenues where there's power dynamics and activities that foster it. From family gatherings, to the chiropractor, to sports, to beauty pageants, etc. So I can't rule out that someone there may have malintent to what they're doing. But I also can't say that this is by default wholesale grooming. I think that's the biggest problem with this. Instead of any form of nuance, there's a carpet statement about an entire experience or community...using the worst terms to describe them. That's not okay. 

I may have a problem with teaching kids to twerk, but that problem isn't because it's inherently grooming behavior. 

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I'm curious about the video with this girl, do you have a link?

I googled it and could find 2 main stories that may fit the description. One was in florida and included a young girl going up to the stage spontaneuosly and enthusiastically dancing very much like a kid while the crowd cheers and throws money her way. No one touches her the entire time she's dancing, and it's obvious to me they're just cheering a girl having fun with the music. I know several dances where it's common to throw money that are NOT sexual at all. But I think in anglo US culture we picture money throwing with strip joints...but that's by no means universal. There was no twerking in the video. The other was a drag queen story time that I'm assuming from something in a book the drag queen person gave an example of what twerking was. It was cringey, but I didn't find it super sexualizing either. For one the twerk was pretty tamely executed and wasn't extended  past a very brief example of a dance move. For another no child was being asked to twerk.  If there's a different one in mind, I didn't find it. 

 

With luv,

BD

Edited August 15, 2022 by BlueDreams

[Tacenda]

58 minutes ago, BlueDreams said:

It's about intent, which is hard to tell just based on the context given. This may not be viewed as something arousing by the older person, but rather just a means of expression. Grooming can happen in several avenues where there's power dynamics and activities that foster it. From family gatherings, to the chiropractor, to sports, to beauty pageants, etc. So I can't rule out that someone there may have malintent to what they're doing. But I also can't say that this is by default wholesale grooming. I think that's the biggest problem with this. Instead of any form of nuance, there's a carpet statement about an entire experience or community...using the worst terms to describe them. That's not okay. 

I may have a problem with teaching kids to twerk, but that problem isn't because it's inherently grooming behavior. 

I googled it and could find 2 main stories that may fit the description. One was in florida and included a young girl going up to the stage spontaneuosly and enthusiastically dancing very much like a kid while the crowd cheers and throws money her way. No one touches her the entire time she's dancing, and it's obvious to me they're just cheering a girl having fun with the music. I know several dances where it's common to throw money that are NOT sexual at all. But I think in anglo US culture we picture money throwing with strip joints...but that's by no means universal. There was no twerking in the video. The other was a drag queen story time that I'm assuming from something in a book the drag queen person gave an example of what twerking was. It was cringey, but I didn't find it super sexualizing either. For one the twerk was pretty tamely executed and wasn't extended  past a very brief example of a dance move. For another no child was being asked to twerk.  If there's a different one in mind, I didn't find it. 

 

With luv,

BD

Thanks BD! As a child I would dance for my aunts and uncles and they would give me quarters, lol!

[Calm]

6 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

What word would you use to describe what they're doing? 

Normalizing seems the appropriate word to me (assuming this was actually done).

Edited August 15, 2022 by Calm

[Hamba Tuhan]

The verb to groom has multiple common meanings. For example, a quick Google search shows that some young people are 'groomed' to take over the family business whilst others are 'groomed' for sporting careers, Ivy League universities, etc. For our resident Nazi-puncher, I note several articles mention how Hitler Youth was specifically designed to 'groom future leaders of the party'.

Having conniptions because what is currently being done to our children and young people doesn't quite match someone's cherry-picked definition (despite clearly being on the same spectrum as that narrow definition!) is a disingenuous attempt at deflection, in my opinion.

By the way, the very first time I ever heard this word used in relation to school curriculum was six years ago, and it was spoken by a then 14 year old. She and two of her friends were explaining to my employer and me about how uncomfortable they were at school. One of them spoke up and said, 'They've warned us about ''grooming", but that's exactly how this feels!'

Another one said, 'I've been repeatedly taught not to let people touch my body in a way that makes me feel dirty. Isn't my mind part of my body?'

So yeah, nothing to do with 'conservatives' or 'Christian nationalists' or any other subset of American politics -- just girls who were sick of being made to feel yucky and decidedly unsafe at school.

Edited August 16, 2022 by Hamba Tuhan

[The Nehor]

8 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

The verb to groom has multiple common meanings. For example, a quick Google search shows that some young people are 'groomed' to take over the family business whilst others are 'groomed' for sporting careers, Ivy League universities, etc. For our resident Nazi-puncher, I note several articles mention how Hitler Youth was specifically designed to 'groom future leaders of the party'.

Having conniptions because what is currently being done to our children and young people doesn't quite match someone's cherry-picked definition (despite clearly being on the same spectrum as that narrow definition!) is a disingenuous attempt at deflection, in my opinion.

By the way, the very first time I ever heard this word used in relation to school curriculum was six years ago, and it was spoken by a then 14 year old. She and two of her friends were explaining to my employer and me about how uncomfortable they were at school. One of them spoke up and said, 'They've warned us about ''grooming", but that's exactly how this feels!'

Another one said, 'I've been repeatedly taught not to let people touch my body in a way that makes me feel dirty. Isn't my mind part of my body?'

So yeah, nothing to do with 'conservatives' or 'Christian nationalists' or any other subset of American politics -- just girls who were sick of being made to feel yucky and decidedly unsafe at school.

Oh please. They are using the word “grooming” because they want to imply pedophilia. That is the only reason they are using it.

Coming along with other wider definitions where you could conceivably fit it in technically is just defending sophistry.

 

For an example of this kind of sophistry Hamba Tuhan is a rapist. He rapes. Raping is his thing.

What? Well I clearly meant the other definition where it is an outrageous violation. I saw him raping the speed limit. He was going over 10 mile per hour over the posted limit. He raped it. The definition establishes that this is an accurate statement. Why are you accusing me of deliberately trying to be misunderstood?

[Chum]

I reject any argument that implies this: It's fine to associate the physical, sexual abuse of children with the LGBT community - because the dictionary says so. 

Regarding the term sexual grooming, it was never about rules of language but about common understanding. Our new misuse of grooming is about intent and effect.

[background]  When CSA entered social awareness, we needed terminology to cover the process of prepping children for sex. We settled on the term grooming (in context, sexual is implied) and that's been the common understanding ever since.

FF to now. People who strongly dislike the LGBT community intend to make the public believe that non-binary Americans are actively trying to harm their children. Learning from earlier failures to overtly tie homosexuality with CSA, they've chosen a subtler campaign - to associate sexual grooming with the LGBT community.

To support that campaign, some are (predictably) playing language games. We are seeing efforts to diminish/eliminate the physical abuse context of sexual grooming. These efforts to rework the public understanding sexual grooming come with consequences.

CSA is an extremely difficult subject. Nobody ever wanted CSA prep in their knowledge bucket but it was necessary. Sabotaging the most effective handle (perhaps only handle) we have on it is going to impact the public's (already tenuous) understanding.

I offer that this price is too high for whatever culture warriors think they're getting from this.

[Ipod Touch]

It is really important to point out that gays and lesbians are not grooming children.  Gender extremists are the ones pushing all of this nonsense.

LGB drop the T.  Get the fetishists out.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Ipod Touch said:

It is really important to point out that gays and lesbians are not grooming children.  Gender extremists are the ones pushing all of this nonsense.

LGB drop the T.  Get the fetishists out.

“Drop the T”

No.

[Ipod Touch]

1 minute ago, The Nehor said:

“Drop the T”

No.

w

Why do you hate women and girls?  Why should women and girls have to share spaces with a penis?

[The Nehor]

2 minutes ago, Ipod Touch said:

Why do you hate women and girls?  Why should women and girls have to share spaces with a penis?

[Ipod Touch]

35 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11116553/Transgender-activists-heckle-elderly-woman-80-rip-suffragette-flags-her.html

 

Ignoring that there is a problem doesn't make the problem go away.  Women and girls have the right to spaces free of penis.

Edited August 16, 2022 by Ipod Touch

[jkwilliams]

7 minutes ago, Ipod Touch said:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11116553/Transgender-activists-heckle-elderly-woman-80-rip-suffragette-flags-her.html

 

Ignoring that there is a problem doesn't make the problem go away.  Women and girls have the right to spaces free of penis.

Citing a tabloid like the Mail does not help your case. 

[jkwilliams]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

“Drop the T”

No.

This is one of the best things you’ve ever posted, my friend. 

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Ipod Touch said:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11116553/Transgender-activists-heckle-elderly-woman-80-rip-suffragette-flags-her.html

 

Ignoring that there is a problem doesn't make the problem go away.  Women and girls have the right to spaces free of penis.

You do know that the 80 year old ‘victim’ picked that fight right? She thought the employee’s voice was too masculine and demanded the employee share information about their genitalia and then started the whole thing by screaming transphobic slurs? And then returning to picket.

Then the big mean LGBT community rallied in support of the employee and the original aggressor acted as if she was going to be attacked and beaten up to try to score sympathy points. The aggressor was unsurprisingly banned and told never to come back. The problem won’t go away with people like this bigot out there deliberately trying to stir it up.

So she bullied someone who was at the beginning of a gender transition with:

It is like poetry. It rhymes.

https://www.thestranger.com/queer/2022/08/11/77677771/transphobic-bullying-incident-prompts-port-townsend-ymca-to-ban-member

[jkwilliams]

7 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

You do know that the 80 year old ‘victim’ picked that fight right? She thought the employee’s voice was too masculine and demanded the employee share information about their genitalia and then started the whole thing by screaming transphobic slurs? And then returning to picket.

Then the big mean LGBT community rallied in support of the employee and the original aggressor acted as if she was going to be attacked and beaten up to try to score sympathy points. The aggressor was unsurprisingly banned and told never to come back. The problem won’t go away with people like this bigot out there deliberately trying to stir it up.

So she bullied someone who was at the beginning of a gender transition with:

It is like poetry. It rhymes.

https://www.thestranger.com/queer/2022/08/11/77677771/transphobic-bullying-incident-prompts-port-townsend-ymca-to-ban-member

But it was in the Daily Mail. That's a legitimate news source, right?

[ttribe]

Ahhh, the good old alarmist, slippery-slope, argument. Chicken Little has nothing on the anti-LGBT crowd.

[The Nehor]

29 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

But it was in the Daily Mail. That's a legitimate news source, right?

[jkwilliams]

13 minutes ago, ttribe said:

Ahhh, the good old alarmist, slippery-slope, argument. Chicken Little has nothing on the anti-LGBT crowd.

The funny thing to me is someone posting their acknowledgment that they adhere to a textbook fallacy.