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What’s the endgame?


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2 hours ago, Alexi Nakatology said:

But it seems like overnight I’ve realized the church has been invisibly gutting itself… the contrast is so apparent…

I'm confused. Something invisible is 'so apparent', but I have no clue what it is you're trying to describe. Care to try again?

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1 minute ago, Maestrophil said:

Doesn't it seem like we can't win - if The Church isn't progressive, then we lose ALL the 'woke', intelligent, compassionate ones (sarcasm), and if it's progressive and changes, then it's capitulation is pointed out as merely caving to legal and social pressures and 'why would a God-led church do that? - so it's obviously a church created by men'. Sheesh

And if the church is regressive and holding on to memories of past days instead of reaching new heights and vistas it will never endure the cleansing fires before the Millenium.

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4 hours ago, Alexi Nakatology said:

How is it all unfolding?

 

I stopped going to church in the early 2000’s and it seemed like just after I left things were becoming progressive…

 

But it seems like overnight I’ve realized the church has been invisibly gutting itself… the contrast is so apparent…


What say ye, saints of the one true church?

The Book of Mormon perfectly describes how it would be, and hence is, unfolding.

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I don't really know what is meant by "progressive" or "invisibly gutting itself," but this thread does bring up some thoughts I've had. Back when I went through my faith crisis (2005 or so), I had a conversation with a friend of mine going through the same thing. We figured that the Internet had changed the game, in terms of information being easily available, but it obviously had not had a major impact on church membership. We agreed that we would know when the numbers of those experiencing faith crises (whichever way they worked them out) had reached a significant level when the church started talking more about problematic issues and when they started having conference talks and magazine articles about people leaving. I seem to recall we thought it would be many years before that happened. We also decided the church would have a choice: open up and abandon the traditional sugar-coated narrative, or double-down on it.

I'd say we were both right and wrong. Clearly, the number of people leaving is significant enough that the church is talking about both subjects I mentioned (the Gospel Topics essays, Swedish Rescue, and numerous conference talks and magazine articles about loved ones losing faith). Honestly, that happened much sooner than I expected. But where we were wrong was in the doubling-down part. What I mean is that the church has, in my view, become a lot more strident in boundary maintenance (Proposition 8, the "policy change," and emphasis on how religious liberty is being attacked being good examples). I'm not making any value judgments about these things, just noting that I've noticed changes, even if others might not.

Recently, a family member (temple married, husband a returned missionary) left the church, and I asked her how that happened. She said she had taken two Church history classes at BYU-Idaho that had dealt with thorny issues. The first class acknowledged difficult things such as polyandry, and the instructor essentially said it's OK to find these things troubling and that only Heavenly Father can give us answers. The second class took a more FARMS-like (for want of a better word) approach, with the instructor denying much of what was troubling people, justifying things that most people find hard to justify, and castigating students for even asking the questions. That approach drove this family member and her husband to investigate the issues on their own, and now they're out of the church.

I really believe the way forward for the church is to acknowledge that things aren't always faith-promoting and encourage people to work through issues with thought and prayer. Doubling-down, denying, and rationalizing is just not a good answer for anyone.

Edited by jkwilliams
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5 hours ago, Alexi Nakatology said:

How is it all unfolding?

 

I stopped going to church in the early 2000’s and it seemed like just after I left things were becoming progressive…

 

But it seems like overnight I’ve realized the church has been invisibly gutting itself… the contrast is so apparent…


What say ye, saints of the one true church?

Things are going good in my perspective.

1.  War and natural disasters are increasing.  Both climate change and geopolitical issues are increasing problems in the world.  This has to happen as we inch closer to the second coming.  Thought the droughts, floods, fires, wars, and other things are not fun and can produce a lot of stress, they have to happen.  All of this is in line with Church teachings and though the secular world is stressing all about these things, we have less reason to stress if we have the proper perspective. 

2.   The secularization of the world means more people are turning away from religion.  Though negative, its another thing that has to happen.  The scriptures and teachings of the church say that the time will come that Lord will withdraw the missionaries to preach a new lesson to the world if they reject God.  That is coming as well.

3. The prophets have said that the time would come that members would need the spirit more than other times to remain in the church and be on the right path.  Many people would fall away.  This is also a sad but true part of the last days requirements.

It is true the Church has gone through a bunch of self inflicted problems. The Church is still run by flawed people who are subject to error.   I don't think the church has become more progressive.   I think our politics is changing so much at a fast rate that it appears that way.  The Church teaches love and understanding but that does not mean we are one inch closer to accepting gay marriage or trans issues.  There is no evidence the Church is going to ordain "trans boys" to the priesthood.  Perhaps is it no as much as the church has changed over the years that you have changed and your orientation of how you perceive things is different.

Edited by carbon dioxide
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5 hours ago, Alexi Nakatology said:

How is it all unfolding?

 

I stopped going to church in the early 2000’s and it seemed like just after I left things were becoming progressive…

 

But it seems like overnight I’ve realized the church has been invisibly gutting itself… the contrast is so apparent…


What say ye, saints of the one true church?

How do you define "gutting itself?" 

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59 minutes ago, Maestrophil said:

Doesn't it seem like we can't win - if The Church isn't progressive, then we lose ALL the 'woke', intelligent, compassionate ones (sarcasm), and if it's progressive and changes, then it's capitulation is pointed out as merely caving to legal and social pressures and 'why would a God-led church do that? - so it's obviously a church created by men'. Sheesh

So true… No matter what happens, the worst motives will always be imputed. But all the smirking and supercilious looks of superiority will vanish when the great and spacious building collapses under the weight of its pride and corruption.

36 And it came to pass that I saw and bear record, that the great and spacious building was the pride of the world; and it fell, and the fall thereof was exceedingly great. And the angel of the Lord spake unto me again, saying: Thus shall be the destruction of all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, that shall fight against the twelve apostles of the Lamb. (1 Nephi 11)

Edited by teddyaware
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8 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

People tend to think of themselves a rocks and the something else is changing.  Maybe that is true but it could be that they are the ones that have changed.  If I look at a long road from just 20 feet from that road and change my positioning to a mile away and a 1000 feet up a hill, I might think the road has changed because it looks different.  The road is still the same.  What is changed is that I have moved to a different position and my perspective is different.  The strait and narrow path looks a lot different from those who are holding to the iron rod while on that path than those who are afar off in the spacious building.

That’s a great perspective. No pun intended 

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28 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

So true… No matter what happens, the worst motives will always be imputed. But all the smirking and supercilious looks of superiority will vanish when the great and spacious building collapses under the weight of its pride and corruption.

There is a running theme with a lot of your posts.

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31 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

There is a running theme with a lot of your posts.

Yes. Because I had the unfortunate experience of having to deal regularly with someone who has a bonafide case of Narcissistic Personality Disorder, I’ve developed an extreme distaste for the proud and haughty looks of those delusional people think they’re superior to everyone else.

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7 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

Yes. Because I had the unfortunate experience of having to deal regularly with someone who has a bonafide case of Narcissistic Personality Disorder, I’ve developed an extreme distaste for the proud and haughty looks of those delusional people think they’re superior to everyone else.

I always thought it was supposed to be the folks in the great and spacious building who acted superior to others. Maybe I was wrong.

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8 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

Yes. Because I had the unfortunate experience of having to deal regularly with someone who has a bonafide case of Narcissistic Personality Disorder, I’ve developed an extreme distaste for the proud and haughty looks of those delusional people think they’re superior to everyone else.

As a filthy perverted degenerate I hope my inevitable destruction brings you joy, laughter, and fulfillment.

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1 hour ago, carbon dioxide said:

Things are going good in my perspective.

1.  War and natural disasters are increasing.  Both climate change and geopolitical issues are increasing problems in the world.  This has to happen as we inch closer to the second coming.  Thought the droughts, floods, fires, wars, and other things are not fun and can produce a lot of stress, they have to happen.  All of this is in line with Church teachings and though the secular world is stressing all about these things, we have less reason to stress if we have the proper perspective. 

2.   The secularization of the world means more people are turning away from religion.  Though negative, its another thing that has to happen.  The scriptures and teachings of the church say that the time will come that Lord will withdraw the missionaries to preach a new lesson to the world if they reject God.  That is coming as well.

3. The prophets have said that the time would come that members would need the spirit more than other times to remain in the church and be on the right path.  Many people would fall away.  This is also a sad but true part of the last days requirements.

It is true the Church has gone through a bunch of self inflicted problems. The Church is still run by flawed people who are subject to error.   I don't think the church has become more progressive.   I think our politics is changing so much at a fast rate that it appears that way.  The Church teaches love and understanding but that does not mean we are one inch closer to accepting gay marriage or trans issues.  There is no evidence the Church is going to ordain "trans boys" to the priesthood.  Perhaps is it no as much as the church has changed over the years that you have changed and your orientation of how you perceive things is different.

Things are going good? Huh……

Here, you need this more than I do:

DBDFBA38-435D-4645-AE38-0496A2228086.png.0a9b97a1d279e846f6ae599c7d0f2b75.png

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1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

So true… No matter what happens, the worst motives will always be imputed. But all the smirking and supercilious looks of superiority will vanish when the great and spacious building collapses under the weight of its pride and corruption.

36 And it came to pass that I saw and bear record, that the great and spacious building was the pride of the world; and it fell, and the fall thereof was exceedingly great. And the angel of the Lord spake unto me again, saying: Thus shall be the destruction of all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, that shall fight against the twelve apostles of the Lamb. (1 Nephi 11)

Look in the mirror dude  Do some introspection.  You certainly need it.  A more smug, over the top pious person I do not think I have ever run into than you.

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24 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

As a filthy perverted degenerate I hope my inevitable destruction brings you joy, laughter, and fulfillment.

I've known more than a few people who will clearly be thrilled to sing "na-na-na-na, hey, hey, hey, goodbye!" as I head to a lesser kingdom. 

Edited by jkwilliams
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1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

As a filthy perverted degenerate I hope my inevitable destruction brings you joy, laughter, and fulfillment.

Teddy didn't say any of that.  You read that into his statement yourself.  We disagree on a lot Nehor, but as fellow believers I still think there is plenty of room for us to be able to build each other up and strengthen the faith of one another instead of nitpicking at what are actually small differences between us compared to the atheists and moral relativists.  

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11 minutes ago, mbh26 said:

Teddy didn't say any of that.  You read that into his statement yourself.  We disagree on a lot Nehor, but as fellow believers I still think there is plenty of room for us to be able to build each other up and strengthen the faith of one another instead of nitpicking at what are actually small differences between us compared to the atheists and moral relativists.  

What he said was that we unbelievers are delusional, proud, and haughty, and likely have narcissistic personality disorder. 

Edited by jkwilliams
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