Kinderhook Plates Discovery damages BOA Missing Scroll and Catalyst Theories

[Ryan Dahle]

5 hours ago, Rivers said:

Lucky for you. But the Book of Abraham has been a stumbling block for way too many others.

Sad for them. 

[SeekingUnderstanding]

9 minutes ago, Ryan Dahle said:

Sad for them. 

Life can be most excellent on the other side 👍

[jkwilliams]

2 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Life can be most excellent on the other side 👍

No kidding. I’ve been told I’m the guy telling people, “Come on in, the water’s fine.” Funny thing, it is fine. Excellent, even. 

I note that I’m 4 posts away from 10,000, which fills me with a bit of embarrassment for wasting so much time here. Maybe it’s a good place to take a break. 

[Snodgrassian]

5 hours ago, why me said:

The fact that he consider them to perhaps be real shows that most likely he was not a fraudster with the book of mormon. He kept an open mind until he realized that something smelled like a fish.

Not tracking your logic here. If his power to translate ancient documents came from God and only through God, he could simply say, "I have not been moved by the spirit to translate these." By attempting to translate them, he is trying to show that he can translate without the assistance of the Spirit. Unless he is unable to discern the influence of the spirit...

[mfbukowski]

5 minutes ago, Snodgrassian said:

Not tracking your logic here. If his power to translate ancient documents came from God and only through God, he could simply say, "I have not been moved by the spirit to translate these." By attempting to translate them, he is trying to show that he can translate without the assistance of the Spirit. Unless he is unable to discern the influence of the spirit...

Through millenia humans have had mystic experiences using visual catalysts that encourage the mind to make chaos into order, like looking at the ocean, or into the flames of a fire, tea leaves, animal entrails, streams of smoke, seer stones, etc etc.

Some of these insights or "revelations" are more useful than others, imo Joseph wins the prize infinitely above the revelations of others, though I think his techniques were remarkably similar to others.

Their value is universal, whereas others were quite mundane, often cheap imitations used for fortune telling etc.

I have never seen any of the props he felt he needed as any more than psychological "placebos".  He went through all the effort of getting the plates for the BOM, just to put them in a box while he "translated" them through a seer stone.

Same with the Kinderhook plates. They were props that enabled his confidence to make himself feel "scholarly" while his giant spirit never needed any of it.  I think of Isaiah's words and wonder if he had such "crutches" to get himself through the process.

But with that way of seeing this all as pure revelation, all this dross about plates in the BOM and here in the BO Abraham, becomes dust in the wind and totally irrelevant to the infinite value of the content penned by God through the hand of Joseph.

The poor genius just lacked confidence, and had to make props to help him feel scholarly, while he needed nothing more than his very real connection with the Perfect Intelligence in charge of all we are capable of knowing 

 

[Snodgrassian]

5 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Through millenia humans have had mystic experiences using visual catalysts that encourage the mind to make chaos into order, like looking at the ocean, or into the flames of a fire, tea leaves, animal entrails, streams of smoke, seer stones, etc etc.

Some of these insights or "revelations" are more useful than others, imo Joseph wins the prize infinitely above the revelations of others, though I think his techniques were remarkably similar to others.

Their value is universal, whereas others were quite mundane, often cheap imitations used for fortune telling etc.

I have never seen any of the props he felt he needed as any more than psychological "placebos".  He went through all the effort of getting the plates for the BOM, just to put them in a box while he "translated" them through a seer stone.

Same with the Kinderhook plates. They were props that enabled his confidence to make himself feel "scholarly" while his giant spirit never needed any of it.  I think of Isaiah's words and wonder if he had such "crutches" to get himself through the process.

But with that way of seeing this all as pure revelation, all this dross about plates in the BOM and here in the BO Abraham, becomes dust in the wind and totally irrelevant to the infinite value of the content penned by God through the hand of Joseph.

The poor genius just lacked confidence, and had to make props to help him feel scholarly, while he needed nothing more than his very real connection with the Perfect Intelligence in charge of all we are capable of knowing 

I appreciate your perspective/take on this. Thanks for sharing

[OGHoosier]

3 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Through millenia humans have had mystic experiences using visual catalysts that encourage the mind to make chaos into order, like looking at the ocean, or into the flames of a fire, tea leaves, animal entrails, streams of smoke, seer stones, etc etc.

Some of these insights or "revelations" are more useful than others, imo Joseph wins the prize infinitely above the revelations of others, though I think his techniques were remarkably similar to others.

Their value is universal, whereas others were quite mundane, often cheap imitations used for fortune telling etc.

I have never seen any of the props he felt he needed as any more than psychological "placebos".  He went through all the effort of getting the plates for the BOM, just to put them in a box while he "translated" them through a seer stone.

Same with the Kinderhook plates. They were props that enabled his confidence to make himself feel "scholarly" while his giant spirit never needed any of it.  I think of Isaiah's words and wonder if he had such "crutches" to get himself through the process.

But with that way of seeing this all as pure revelation, all this dross about plates in the BOM and here in the BO Abraham, becomes dust in the wind and totally irrelevant to the infinite value of the content penned by God through the hand of Joseph.

The poor genius just lacked confidence, and had to make props to help him feel scholarly, while he needed nothing more than his very real connection with the Perfect Intelligence in charge of all we are capable of knowing 

 

Interesting food for thought. May I spin off it for a bit?

Historically I've thought of Joseph Smith's revelations as messages sent by God with intentional propositional content, like a letter. That seems to be the way in which we talk about it in the Church. God has things He wants to tell us, He sends them to our mind (which has a mortal filter to one degree or another) and the somewhat garbled output is what we perceive as revelation. In contrast, I've generally viewed the sort of mystical experience that comes from looking at the ocean or into the fire as a sort of recognition, putting two dots together, based on my own faculties as opposed to some sort of external communication. I can't speak for tea leaves or other media of seership, not having had any practical experience with them. 

But to hear you describe it, Joseph Smith's revelations could also come from a more passive process. Instead of the Lord choosing propositional content to put into his mind, perhaps the Lord lifted or thinned the veil and allowed him to tap into the great current of truth just beyond it. It would be akin to the Brother of Jared, whose faith enabled him to pierce the veil to a degree, and who then was permitted to see beyond it. The Lord is not described as projecting His own image into the Brother of Jared's mind; rather, He simply lifts the barrier and lets him simply perceive what he can perceive. This is not an intuitive model of revelation, but it is not unprecedented either. 

 

 

[Ryan Dahle]

4 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

I have never seen any of the props he felt he needed as any more than psychological "placebos".  He went through all the effort of getting the plates for the BOM, just to put them in a box while he "translated" them through a seer stone.

Same with the Kinderhook plates. They were props that enabled his confidence to make himself feel "scholarly" while his giant spirit never needed any of it.  I think of Isaiah's words and wonder if he had such "crutches" to get himself through the process.

But with that way of seeing this all as pure revelation, all this dross about plates in the BOM and here in the BO Abraham, becomes dust in the wind and totally irrelevant to the infinite value of the content penned by God through the hand of Joseph.

The poor genius just lacked confidence, and had to make props to help him feel scholarly, while he needed nothing more than his very real connection with the Perfect Intelligence in charge of all we are capable of knowing 

I think looking at the physical artifacts involved in the translation (gold plates, interpreters, seer stones, etc.) as mere "props" to induce a "psychological placebo" effect is somewhat off the mark. The Book of Mormon provides what is, imo, a better explanation that is more in line with fundamental gospel principles. Alma 37:23-24 states:

Quote

And the Lord said: I will prepare unto my servant Gazelem, a stone, which shall shine forth in darkness unto light, that I may discover unto my people who serve me, that I may discover unto them the works of their brethren, yea, their secret works, their works of darkness, and their wickedness and abominations. And now, my son, these interpreters were prepared that the word of God might be fulfilled

Similar language is used in relation to the Liahona (Alma 37:38-39):

Quote

And now, my son, I have somewhat to say concerning the thing which our fathers call a ball, or director—or our fathers called it Liahona, which is, being interpreted, a compass; and the Lord prepared it. And behold, there cannot any man work after the manner of so curious a workmanship. And behold, it was prepared to show unto our fathers the course which they should travel in the wilderness.

The Liahona was hardly just a prop for placebo. The account says that words miraculously appeared on the ball and changed from time to time: 

Quote

And there was also written upon them a new writing, which was plain to be read, which did give us understanding concerning the ways of the Lord; and it was written and changed from time to time, according to the faith and diligence which we gave unto it. And thus we see that by small means the Lord can bring about great things.

The point is that the Liahona was more than just a catalyst for visionary experience. It wasn't merely an object intended to hone one's focus or amplify faith. There was something seemingly supernatural about it, physically speaking. And it is interesting that both the Liahona and Gazelem (which could be interpreted as Joseph's seer stone), and the interpreters were all described as being "prepared" by the Lord. 

Now, what I am NOT saying is that Joseph's seer stones worked in a mechanistic way, like a modern cell phone. I don't rule that out as a possibility, strictly speaking, but it find that to be doubtful (at least in this particular case; in contrast to the Liahona). What I am saying is that there was apparently something more to the stone's power than mere focus or placebo. The story of Martin swapping out Joseph's stone provides at least circumstantial evidence for that point. Not just any old stone seemed to work, even when Joseph initially thought that the stone he had in his hat was same he had been using just prior to that (a point which undermines the placebo thesis). 

As for the gold plates' lack of utility, they seem to have played a multifaceted role in various stages of the Restoration, with both symbolic and practical benefits to having them present (although covered) during the translation. And since this was pretty much a divinely orchestrated miracle, it seems that the symbolic or instructive value of certain situations is not to be underestimated. 

I think a better way to look at the role of physical media is in connection with physical ordinances and also with the principle of consecrating or setting apart. A temple is just a building until it is dedicated. The sacrament victuals are just bread and water until they are formally blessed. Olive oil is just oil until it is consecrated. One might assume all these ordinances are merely symbolic, but that isn't how the gospel itself treats them.

It treats them as having a special ability to facilitate divine power in certain designated ways. The specific ways can change throughout time. It isn't the objects or the actions of the ordinances that have the power, at least not inherently. It is the fact that they have been "prepared" (meaning authorized, appointed, established, directed by divine authority and power) that counts. The fact that the Lord sometimes uses a diversity of methods to accomplish similar divine goals doesn't necessarily invalidate the special status of those variant methods. A man might be healed by having clay rubbed on his eyes, or having oil poured on his head, or having people fast and pray on his behalf, or by touching a designated handkerchief, or by washing in the Jordan seven times, or by looking at a brazen serpent. The method doesn't matter so long as it has been "prepared," so to speak, by the Lord or those he authorizes to do so. Which actually means that the method may matter a great deal, but just not due to its own intrinsic merits. 

So, in my mind, the fact that Joseph didn't need his seer stone anymore after translating the Book of Mormon doesn't necessarily indicate that there was never anything special about the stones he was using (whether the Nephite interpreters or his other seer stone(s)). It is just par for the course, with the Lord choosing to use some methods in one circumstance and other methods in another. 

One other point. I think that the power is best conceived of as resulting from the interplay between the spiritual and the physical. It is when one's faith and pure heart are coupled with divinely appointed and willingly undertaken action--often in conjunction with consecrated physical objects or media--that unique divine power is unlocked. That makes a lot of sense to me, considering our current condition as embodied spirits. 

[mfbukowski]

20 minutes ago, OGHoosier said:

Interesting food for thought. May I spin off it for a bit?

Historically I've thought of Joseph Smith's revelations as messages sent by God with intentional propositional content, like a letter. That seems to be the way in which we talk about it in the Church. God has things He wants to tell us, He sends them to our mind (which has a mortal filter to one degree or another) and the somewhat garbled output is what we perceive as revelation. In contrast, I've generally viewed the sort of mystical experience that comes from looking at the ocean or into the fire as a sort of recognition, putting two dots together, based on my own faculties as opposed to some sort of external communication. I can't speak for tea leaves or other media of seership, not having had any practical experience with them. 

But to hear you describe it, Joseph Smith's revelations could also come from a more passive process. Instead of the Lord choosing propositional content to put into his mind, perhaps the Lord lifted or thinned the veil and allowed him to tap into the great current of truth just beyond it. It would be akin to the Brother of Jared, whose faith enabled him to pierce the veil to a degree, and who then was permitted to see beyond it. The Lord is not described as projecting His own image into the Brother of Jared's mind; rather, He simply lifts the barrier and lets him simply perceive what he can perceive. This is not an intuitive model of revelation, but it is not unprecedented either. 

 

 

Quote

Interesting food for thought. May I spin off it for a bit?

Not sure, I have to consult the Bukowskite Catechism, section 183-B, I think....        Oh yeah, sure, I'll be easy on you this time.......      > Joke for those who think I am serious   On the other hand, since we understand each other, this is for you- so don't tell anyone else what follows ok?

Quote

Historically I've thought of Joseph Smith's revelations as messages sent by God with intentional propositional content, like a letter. That seems to be the way in which we talk about it in the Church. God has things He wants to tell us, He sends them to our mind (which has a mortal filter to one degree or another) and the somewhat garbled output is what we perceive as revelation. In contrast, I've generally viewed the sort of mystical experience that comes from looking at the ocean or into the fire as a sort of recognition, putting two dots together, based on my own faculties as opposed to some sort of external communication. I can't speak for tea leaves or other media of seership, not having had any practical experience with them. 

I agree fully.   I have this thing in my brain that takes words and fits them into as many contexts or paradigms - some often opposed to each other- as I can.  Yes He has things He wants to tell us, but we must also be conscious of the view of atheists who might see who we call "God" as susperstitious nonsense and simply a progression of our own minds.  So for those, I teach that God IS a part of us- perhaps we might call "Him" our unconscious "Ideal Best Human" we can imagine- he is that Conscience within us, those feelings that tell us what is good and what is evil whether or not we believe in "God".   In the process of creating our own worlds, each of us contemplate these matters and often have feelings that just pop into our heads, as if they are not our own thoughts.  Artists will tell you that it happens to them all the time!   But "where" does that come from?   What is what we call "inspiration"?   Jesus said that the Kingdom of God is within us- and I see this as simply another paradigm/explanation for the same phenomenon an artist might understand when they "hear" the words to a song etc- just seeming to come from nowhere.

And on the other hand, I once taught myself how to build my own guitar, from the same source.   I asked and the thoughts came.  I went to the beach a lot in those days and sat at night looking into the fire and the thoughts came.

I recall my little son one time- he must have been 5 or 6 and he said something far beyond his level of understanding- we asked "How did you figure that out"?  His reply :"My brain told me"!   

What's the difference?  Undefinable. No words work to describe it.  It's like my Rorty quote below-- we know there is a "cause"- a "source" of these experiences but honestly we cannot tell if they come from outside or not!!  There are no words which fit.  So either paradigm is simply another way of expressing the "same" experience- Intelligence being delivered into our minds- things we never saw or felt suddenly appearing before us as "real".   

So for a second forget the paradigm and let's just all agree that IT HAPPENS, for now, SOURCE unknown.   Plug in your own paradigm.

I see it clearly as Another Being who gives me ideas that I have never put together before, and so it must NOT be ME who is doing it.   And when I am "with" this being I feel deep peace and love, as being immersed into a warm bath of pure love.   THAT ain't comin' from ME- I can promise you that!   Like Bob Dylan I can say "If my thought-dreams could be seen,/ they'd probably put my head/ in a guillotine/ But it's all right ma-/ it's life and life only!! 

So now I can say that I have experienced communication with another being of infinite intelligence who appears to be giving me love and wonderful advice about my life.  Could it be my unconscious? 

I don't think so, and so I "hope for things unseen"="Faith".   So if this Intelligence wants me to be the best I want to be- I want to find a church that encourages me to work hard to become just that.   So here I am

Quote

But to hear you describe it, Joseph Smith's revelations could also come from a more passive process. Instead of the Lord choosing propositional content to put into his mind, perhaps the Lord lifted or thinned the veil and allowed him to tap into the great current of truth just beyond it. It would be akin to the Brother of Jared, whose faith enabled him to pierce the veil to a degree, and who then was permitted to see beyond it. The Lord is not described as projecting His own image into the Brother of Jared's mind; rather, He simply lifts the barrier and lets him simply perceive what he can perceive. This is not an intuitive model of revelation, but it is not unprecedented either. 

Yep!!

If we REALLY want to convert the world we need to be able to see God in different ways and paradigms and words all meaning the "same thing".   So we must teach Baptists as Baptists and atheists as atheists, secular folks secularly.   

Whether or not we are up to that is another question.   Fundamentalism stands in the way- tolerance of ambiguity is the key.  And now we need to page our friend @Kevin Christensen.    Some in the church believe that relativism is evil, but really it is the only way we can teach everyone in their own "language".

We don't need more "language training"- computers can do that nowadays.   What we need is more philosophy/paradigm training.   And yes, even scripture is philosophy- it can't help itself.  

[mfbukowski]

44 minutes ago, Ryan Dahle said:

So, in my mind, the fact that Joseph didn't need his seer stone anymore after translating the Book of Mormon doesn't necessarily indicate that there was never anything special about the stones he was using (whether the Nephite interpreters or his other seer stone(s)). It is just par for the course, with the Lord choosing to use some methods in one circumstance and other methods in another. 

One other point. I think that the power is best conceived of as resulting from the interplay between the spiritual and the physical. It is when one's faith and pure heart are coupled with divinely appointed and willingly undertaken action--often in conjunction with consecrated physical objects or media--that unique divine power is unlocked. That makes a lot of sense to me, considering our current condition as embodied spirits. 

I can't disagree with any of this, but to me what you are leaving out is the PSYCHOLOGY of this and how it relates to spirituality.   God speaks to us throught what we call "testimony" that requires FAITH ie: hope.

If a patient has HOPE /faith that a sugar pill will cure them, it does.   THAT is your scientific evidence.   But the pill must be given by one in "authority" and must be a tangible real pill!

You yourself just said above that Joseph did not need his seer stone, OR the plates, which were not "special".

Same for the Liahona- I see absolutely no reason how that was any different except that the people using it were not as adept at spiritual matters so needed the "gizmo" effect psychologically to have hope.

This is related to BOM historicity as well- as you and I have discussed before.

I don't have any personal belief in BOM historicity except perhaps as Mark Wright sees it- the believers- "Nephites" PERHAPS were a religion dwelling among the Mayans as LDS are a religion dwelling in countires of the world with a specific PHILOSOPHY.

PHILOSOPHY changes lives- ask any Buddhist, Muslim, Communist and on and on- what supposedly happened thousands of years ago which cannot be proven does not change lives.   Yes it MIGHT all have happened as advertised or maybe not.

I am not going to base my God on archaeology- OR to some philosophical legends - to me that is not a wise path.   Yes they may all be literally true but I do not NEED that belief- I see it as a "crutch"

I believe, and have a STRONG testimony - meaning I have had a spiritual experience providing me certainty- of every single article of faith, some literally, some allegorically, but I have ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY that this is the BEST and therefore "TRUEST" church on the earth to build the perfection of mankind, and I have ABSOLUTE certainty that Christ Jesus died to provide me peace for all the bad things I have done after all I can do to repent for them. 

 I KNOW because HE TOLD ME SO.  Without the spiritual witness, unfortunately I would have stayed an atheist, and there are thousands like me out there.

If you want to stop them from joining because you think they need to believe what COULD BE LEGENDS, Uh, let's say I disagree.

We must be able to teach others like me- there are millions of us.

And now I will answer those who WILL argue "Yes- but what if Jesus never lived- surely you see your testimony is based on that historical fact"

Nope.   It is the IDEA that GOD has the EMPATHY to know every twinge and nuance of my life and problems that makes me KNOW that I am never along, and also that I talk to HIM DAILY.

These are spiritual experiences I have daily- many of which I learned in fact AS a Buddhist in those days- that bring me peace.   I DO believe that the person Jesus of Nazareth IS the Christ- etc, but that is not essential.

Any human God- the idea of a human God itself- could provide me with that comfort.

Edited May 26, 2022 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Ryan Dahle said:

The point is that the Liahona was more than just a catalyst for visionary experience. It wasn't merely an object intended to hone one's focus or amplify faith. There was something seemingly supernatural about it, physically speaking. And it is interesting that both the Liahona and Gazelem (which could be interpreted as Joseph's seer stone), and the interpreters were all described as being "prepared" by the Lord. 

Yes, it says this.

I don't see the relevance to my argument.   Perhaps you could explain why you NEED to believe that these things "actually happened" and I do not.

My answer is that I have a testimony that God leads and guides us and can provide physical means if we need it.   In some cases, people may need to have these provided.

Certainly if the Lord fails me, I perhaps would need such things, but remember I have already BEEN Catholic, Zoroastrian, Buddhist, and after them all, LDS now for 43 years and going nowhere else.

It's all right here- the covenant path for mankind's perfection, assuming we do not scare people away anymore.

President Nelson is wonderful and gets it totally, imo and I sustain him and all he has done, fully.   He has started to change the church's image and that is what is needed.

Blacks can even be priests!  I mean how progressive can you get!

The endowment presentation can be changed and are not magic words a la Harry Potter!   Wow!   We are the Church of Jesus Christ - right out there in bold letters!

How modern can you get???

(Joking)

Edited May 26, 2022 by mfbukowski

[manol]

37 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

What is what we call "inspiration"?   Jesus said that the Kingdom of God is within us- and I see this as simply another paradigm/explanation for the same phenomenon an artist might understand when they "hear" the words to a song etc- just seeming to come from nowhere.

I hadn't thought of it that way, but that makes sense to me... and it implies song-writing or whatever may well be a more holy undertaking than is outwardly apparent.  The song-writer (or whoever) may be a conduit through which the Kingdom of Heaven gains a little bit more entrance into this world. 

37 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

 So if this Intelligence wants me to be the best I want to be- I want to find a church that encourages me to work hard to become just that.   So here I am

Sounds good to me! 

37 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

If we REALLY want to convert the world we need to be able to see God in different ways and paradigms and words all meaning the "same thing".   So we must teach Baptists as Baptists and atheists as atheists, secular folks secularly.  

Along similar lines...

Perhaps is it is the job of a higher order of beings to minister to and advance US, along with everyone else on the planet.  So they speak Mormon to Mormons, and Baptist to Baptists, and Secular to Secular folk, and so forth... and perhaps those who LISTEN to whatever voice Inspiration speaks through are progressing accordingly, EVEN IF such progression is not apparent to someone on a different path. 

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Ryan Dahle said:

One other point. I think that the power is best conceived of as resulting from the interplay between the spiritual and the physical

Remember there is no such thing as immaterial matter. There is no such dichotomy in our theology

That is Cartesian and Platonic nonsense and one of Joseph's most confirming revelations.

He couldn't have known that through the science of his day, it took Einstein to postulate it scientifically

 

[OGHoosier]

2 hours ago, manol said:

I hadn't thought of it that way, but that makes sense to me... and it implies song-writing or whatever may well be a more holy undertaking than is outwardly apparent.  The song-writer (or whoever) may be a conduit through which the Kingdom of Heaven gains a little bit more entrance into this world. 

Sounds good to me! 

Along similar lines...

Perhaps is it is the job of a higher order of beings to minister to and advance US, along with everyone else on the planet.  So they speak Mormon to Mormons, and Baptist to Baptists, and Secular to Secular folk, and so forth... and perhaps those who LISTEN to whatever voice Inspiration speaks through are progressing accordingly, EVEN IF such progression is not apparent to someone on a different path. 

 

 

19 Though I am free and belong to no one, I have made myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 

20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 

21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. 

22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some. 

23 I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.

- 1 Corinthians 9:19-23, describing Paul's acceptance of this truth

 

[Calm]

11 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

No kidding. I’ve been told I’m the guy telling people, “Come on in, the water’s fine.” Funny thing, it is fine. Excellent, even. 

I note that I’m 4 posts away from 10,000, which fills me with a bit of embarrassment for wasting so much time here. Maybe it’s a good place to take a break. 

Just compare it to mine. If I am not wasting my time (and I am not), how can you be?  

Edited May 26, 2022 by Calm

[OGHoosier]

4 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

I can't disagree with any of this, but to me what you are leaving out is the PSYCHOLOGY of this and how it relates to spirituality.   God speaks to us throught what we call "testimony" that requires FAITH ie: hope.

If a patient has HOPE /faith that a sugar pill will cure them, it does.   THAT is your scientific evidence.   But the pill must be given by one in "authority" and must be a tangible real pill!

You yourself just said above that Joseph did not need his seer stone, OR the plates, which were not "special".

Same for the Liahona- I see absolutely no reason how that was any different except that the people using it were not as adept at spiritual matters so needed the "gizmo" effect psychologically to have hope.

This is related to BOM historicity as well- as you and I have discussed before.

I don't have any personal belief in BOM historicity except perhaps as Mark Wright sees it- the believers- "Nephites" PERHAPS were a religion dwelling among the Mayans as LDS are a religion dwelling in countires of the world with a specific PHILOSOPHY.

PHILOSOPHY changes lives- ask any Buddhist, Muslim, Communist and on and on- what supposedly happened thousands of years ago which cannot be proven does not change lives.   Yes it MIGHT all have happened as advertised or maybe not.

I am not going to base my God on archaeology- OR to some philosophical legends - to me that is not a wise path.   Yes they may all be literally true but I do not NEED that belief- I see it as a "crutch"

I believe, and have a STRONG testimony - meaning I have had a spiritual experience providing me certainty- of every single article of faith, some literally, some allegorically, but I have ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY that this is the BEST and therefore "TRUEST" church on the earth to build the perfection of mankind, and I have ABSOLUTE certainty that Christ Jesus died to provide me peace for all the bad things I have done after all I can do to repent for them. 

 I KNOW because HE TOLD ME SO.  Without the spiritual witness, unfortunately I would have stayed an atheist, and there are thousands like me out there.

If you want to stop them from joining because you think they need to believe what COULD BE LEGENDS, Uh, let's say I disagree.

We must be able to teach others like me- there are millions of us.

And now I will answer those who WILL argue "Yes- but what if Jesus never lived- surely you see your testimony is based on that historical fact"

Nope.   It is the IDEA that GOD has the EMPATHY to know every twinge and nuance of my life and problems that makes me KNOW that I am never along, and also that I talk to HIM DAILY.

These are spiritual experiences I have daily- many of which I learned in fact AS a Buddhist in those days- that bring me peace.   I DO believe that the person Jesus of Nazareth IS the Christ- etc, but that is not essential.

Any human God- the idea of a human God itself- could provide me with that comfort.

We've put so much on Book of Mormon historicity that it feels kind of dirty to agree with this, but I follow in the footsteps of Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Alma the Younger, and Jesus Christ - the truth tastes good, and thus I believe in it. I retain my belief that the Book of Mormon is "based on real events," as it were, but it is freeing to acknowledge that the principal function of the book is not to serve as a pre-Columbian gazeteer. We ought not measure it as such.

Besides, to be honest, the Book of Mormon makes more sense when Nephite Christianity is read as a minority religion even within the Zarahemlan Empire. The religious tolerance upheld by the Zarahemlans (in lieu of a coercive state religion) fits better in a world where there are competing religions and the religion of the rulers is not strong enough to unseat its rivals. That would also explain why the Nephites yo-yo from righteousness to iniquity so easily, and why rival syncretic religious movements like the Zoramites, the people of Ammonihah, the ritual cannibals of Moroni 9, and the Lamanites of 4 Nephi pop up with such ease. 

Edit: Also, Grant Hardy had a rather compelling argument about Moroni Christianizing the Jaredites in his abridgment of Ether - depicting them as more Christian than they were. It would not surprise me if he got it from his father, and the Book of Mormon's hyperfocus on Nephite Christianity was a conscious editorial choice on Mormon's part - in keeping with Nephi's original desire that the small plates be exclusively for the word of God and things pertinent thereto. 

Edited May 26, 2022 by OGHoosier

[Tacenda]

12 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

No kidding. I’ve been told I’m the guy telling people, “Come on in, the water’s fine.” Funny thing, it is fine. Excellent, even. 

I note that I’m 4 posts away from 10,000, which fills me with a bit of embarrassment for wasting so much time here. Maybe it’s a good place to take a break. 

This place is too addicting, haha. 

[why me]

11 hours ago, Snodgrassian said:

Not tracking your logic here. If his power to translate ancient documents came from God and only through God, he could simply say, "I have not been moved by the spirit to translate these." By attempting to translate them, he is trying to show that he can translate without the assistance of the Spirit. Unless he is unable to discern the influence of the spirit...

What I am saying is that if he was a fraudster by claiming he translated the book of mormon from gold plates but in reality he didn't he would see this kinderhook fraud a mile away. That he attempted to do it showed that most likely he had that gold plate experience.

[mfbukowski]

9 hours ago, Ryan Dahle said:

So, in my mind, the fact that Joseph didn't need his seer stone anymore after translating the Book of Mormon doesn't necessarily indicate that there was never anything special about the stones he was using (whether the Nephite interpreters or his other seer stone(s)). It is just par for the course, with the Lord choosing to use some methods in one circumstance and other methods in another

Yes, that is in your mind. Where else would it be ?

Ulisses Soares, Sat afternoon session 2020:

"My dear fellow companions in the gospel, many of today’s discoveries from ancient times occur during an archaeological excavation or even by accident during a construction project. Joseph Smith, however, was directed to the plates by an angel. That outcome by itself was a miracle.
The translation process of the Book of Mormon was also a miracle. This sacred ancient record was not “translated” in the traditional way that scholars would translate ancient texts by learning an ancient language. We ought to look at the process more like a “revelation” with the aid of physical instruments provided by the Lord, as opposed to a “translation” by one with knowledge of languages. Joseph Smith declared that through God’s power he “translated the Book of Mormon from [hieroglyphs], the knowledge of which was lost to the world, in which wonderful event [he] stood alone, an unlearned youth, to combat the worldly wisdom and multiplied ignorance of eighteen centuries, with a new revelation.” The Lord’s help in the translation of the plates—or revelation, so to speak—is also evident when considering the miraculously short time Joseph Smith took to translate them."

In my mind, before going to bed, I was cleaning up some stuff and a notebook of mine fell open to this quote.

In my mind, I didn't see it as accidental.

 

Edited May 26, 2022 by mfbukowski

[CA Steve]

On 5/25/2022 at 7:40 AM, why me said:

The fact that he consider them to perhaps be real shows that most likely he was not a fraudster with the book of mormon. He kept an open mind until he realized that something smelled like a fish.

Smith was involved in treasure hunting activities before the BoM and after. Was he operating as a fraud in those pursuits or did he really believe he might find something? And, if he really believed he could find something, what makes you think he didn't believe others could also? The best con games are based on the belief or even knowledge that something actually exists. It's a lot easier to sell a bridge that actually exist than make one up. Whether or not he was a fraudster, he believed that metal plates with writing existed. 

[Ryan Dahle]

13 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

If a patient has HOPE /faith that a sugar pill will cure them, it does.   THAT is your scientific evidence.   But the pill must be given by one in "authority" and must be a tangible real pill!

You yourself just said above that Joseph did not need his seer stone, OR the plates, which were not "special".

Same for the Liahona- I see absolutely no reason how that was any different except that the people using it were not as adept at spiritual matters so needed the "gizmo" effect psychologically to have hope.

I never said that faith/hope wasn't important to the activation of divine power. In fact I thought I made it clear that faith was necessary and that the physical objects help facilitate that process. My point was that faith was just one component. Your prior comment seemed to be missing or not emphasizing the other ingredient in the equation. Faith, alone, apparently wasn't enough to activate the false seer stone that Martin swapped out for Joseph's genuine seer stone, even though Joseph believed, on a psychological level, that it would work. In many cases faith must be coupled with divinely prepared means in order to activate certain types of divine power. 

The point about the Liahona was that it was clearly more than just a prop. Yes, it helped facilitate faith and was activated and operated by faith. But it had additional functionality and purpose beyond that. It wasn't just a "gizmo effect psychologically to have hope." It served a very practical purpose in their journey. It responded to their faith in a particular miraculous way. And embedded in its miraculous functionality was typological instruction with pedagogical value (which is also distinct from and in addition to its ability to generate or facilitate faith). So it wasn't just a prop that was necessary because people couldn't have enough faith or hope without it (even though it helped in that area as well).

It seems like I'm getting you. I'm not sure you're getting me, though. Which is okay. I'll probably sign off on this one. 

[jkwilliams]

12 hours ago, Calm said:

Just compare it to mine. If I am not wasting my time (and I am not), how can you be?  

Well, you add something positive and thoughtful every day, which I very much appreciate. That’s no waste of time. 

[Calm]

Just now, jkwilliams said:

Well, you add something positive and thoughtful every day, which I very much appreciate. That’s no waste of time. 

It keeps my mind active as well, which is rather important right now to fight brain fog. 

[jkwilliams]

7 minutes ago, Calm said:

It keeps my mind active as well, which is rather important right now to fight brain fog. 

I’m losing that battle, I’m afraid. I am amazed and impressed with your ability to be kind consistently, even when some of us don’t always deserve it. I am grateful for your example and am glad to consider you a friend. 

[Saint Bonaventure]

So how important is the Book of Abraham? You all have an open canon, and a declaration about the Book of Mormon (the "word of God"), and lower, the Bible ("as far as it is translated correctly"). Are the Doctrines & Covenants and Book of Abraham lower still?

You could work with your open canon and end the consideration of all this theory of translation stuff. You could put the Book of Abraham in an appendix or remove it and treat it as valued devotional literature, but not scripture.

Probably ignorant on my part, but I'm just thinking out loud.