teddyaware Posted May 28, 2022 Posted May 28, 2022 2 hours ago, mfbukowski said: I made an error here- I was not acquainted with the story and so it appears I got it backwards. This story then appears to show that a particular stone WAS required for the Lord to make the revelation. There was a bit of discussion following that, see above. We have no way of knowing what "really happened" anyway- perhaps Joseph saw it was the wrong stone, perhaps he didn't. One subjectively interpreted experiment does not justify a scientific belief anyway. Remember I am putting forth a paradigm here that scientific "facts" are not required for a testimony. THAT is my major point. I am not concerned about the stone either way, and it is clear that eventually Joseph realized that a stone was not required to receive revelation. The question is not whether or not the stone made a difference, but is much larger- it is about whether or not scientific methodology is relevant to spiritual matters, and that scriptures are scientifically "correct". I believe it is obvious that that is not the case, but we all get to pick what paradigm gives meaning to our lives Once one realizes Moroni’s promise by gaining an unshakable testimony of the divine authenticity of the Book of Mormon for himself, by the matchless power of the great living Urim and Thummim known as the Holy Ghost, all the endless controversies and so-called ‘valid’ reasons for doubt with regard to how that great Nephite revelation of God to modern man came to be amount to nothing more than the futile sign seeking lusts of those who refuse to accept God’s admonition that personal revelation from him is the one and only answer.
mfbukowski Posted May 28, 2022 Posted May 28, 2022 (edited) 36 minutes ago, rodheadlee said: If he didn't have the plates to start with not many would have been interested in listening to what he had to say or reading it. It is psychological. He needed a starting point. It stirred interest in the community, that is clear. Maybe I should clarify what I mean by "psychological": I believe everything we think and know including reality itself AS WE PERCEIVE AND INTERPRET IT is "psychological" I see it as the Pragmatists do, William James, John Dewey Wittgenstein et al. I am not alone in this approach to religion OR epistemology. One term for the position is anti-realism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-realism Philosophically the belief is that "abstract" ideas - like spiritual beliefs- cannot interact with physical objects. "The "epistemic argument" against Platonism has been made by Paul Benacerraf and Hartry Field. Platonism posits that mathematical objects are abstract entities. By general agreement, abstract entities cannot interact causally with physical entities ("the truth-values of our mathematical assertions depend on facts involving platonic entities that reside in a realm outside of space-time"[15]) Whilst our knowledge of physical objects is based on our ability to perceive them, and therefore to causally interact with them, there is no parallel account of how mathematicians come to have knowledge of abstract objects.[16][17][18]" Edited May 28, 2022 by mfbukowski
mfbukowski Posted May 28, 2022 Posted May 28, 2022 23 minutes ago, teddyaware said: Once one realizes Moroni’s promise by gaining an unshakable testimony of the divine authenticity of the Book of Mormon for himself, by the matchless power of the great living Urim and Thummim known as the Holy Ghost, all the endless controversies and so-called ‘valid’ reasons for doubt with regard to how that great Nephite revelation of God to modern man came to be amount to nothing more than the futile sign seeking lusts of those who refuse to accept God’s admonition that personal revelation from him is the one and only answer. YES YES YES!!!
Tacenda Posted May 29, 2022 Posted May 29, 2022 On 5/27/2022 at 9:21 AM, mfbukowski said: Someone known to be worthy of revelation, believed to have perhaps the strongest spiritual connection, with a very good "radio" Again though we ALL need to have our OWN revelations that the prophet is "True" But SOMEONE has to be a leader with authority in any organization. For me, pres. Nelson is one of the best, and I love the direction he is going. The church has always taught that we each need our own testimonies of every principle He seems to have spoken more about personal revelation than any other prophet that I've known.
mfbukowski Posted May 31, 2022 Posted May 31, 2022 On 5/28/2022 at 6:29 PM, Tacenda said: He seems to have spoken more about personal revelation than any other prophet that I've known. Agree, and I think that is very good
The Unclean Deacon Posted June 6, 2022 Author Posted June 6, 2022 On 5/27/2022 at 8:23 PM, teddyaware said: Once one realizes Moroni’s promise by gaining an unshakable testimony of the divine authenticity of the Book of Mormon for himself, by the matchless power of the great living Urim and Thummim known as the Holy Ghost, all the endless controversies and so-called ‘valid’ reasons for doubt with regard to how that great Nephite revelation of God to modern man came to be amount to nothing more than the futile sign seeking lusts of those who refuse to accept God’s admonition that personal revelation from him is the one and only answer. No True Scotsman Fallacy 1
teddyaware Posted June 6, 2022 Posted June 6, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, The Unclean Deacon said: No True Scotsman Fallacy The day will come when we’ll all know whether or not Moroni’s promise of truth revealing revelation from God is a fallacy on the Day of Judgement. Edited June 6, 2022 by teddyaware
Teancum Posted June 6, 2022 Posted June 6, 2022 1 hour ago, teddyaware said: The day will come when we’ll all know whether or not Moroni’s promise of truth revealing revelation from God is a fallacy on the Day of Judgement. Nah we do not need to wait. It is not a promise of truth. It is a manipulative passage in a man made book pawned of as the word of God to convince easily gullible humans of something that really is not true. And look how well it works! If it does not work for you well it is all on you. You did not fallow the proper formula. You did not have enough faith. And there is no day of judgement other than the one you wake up to each and every day. -2
teddyaware Posted June 7, 2022 Posted June 7, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Teancum said: Nah we do not need to wait. It is not a promise of truth. It is a manipulative passage in a man made book pawned of as the word of God to convince easily gullible humans of something that really is not true. And look how well it works! If it does not work for you well it is all on you. You did not fallow the proper formula. You did not have enough faith. And there is no day of judgement other than the one you wake up to each and every day. 4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a SINCERE HEART, with REAL INTENT, HAVING FAITH IN CHRIST, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost. 5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things. If Moroni’s promise was not fulfilled in my own life’s experience, I would hopefully humble myself enough before God to honestly evaluate the situation and consider the possibility that I might actually be lacking in sufficient sincerity, real intent and faith in Christ to obtain the promised revelatory answer, and do so rather than allow myself to automatically presume that I did sufficiently meet those three criteria. And if as a consequence of my failure to receive the promised answer I allowed myself to become exceedingly angry and embittered against God and the Church, I would hope that I would stop on occasion and seriously wonder if, given my proclivity to succumb to anger and resentment, the Lord hadn’t done me a very great favor by leaving me in the dark, thereby mercifully preventing me from eventually sinning against the greater light. Edited June 7, 2022 by teddyaware 1
mfbukowski Posted June 7, 2022 Posted June 7, 2022 6 hours ago, teddyaware said: 4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a SINCERE HEART, with REAL INTENT, HAVING FAITH IN CHRIST, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost. 5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things. If Moroni’s promise was not fulfilled in my own life’s experience, I would hopefully humble myself enough before God to honestly evaluate the situation and consider the possibility that I might actually be lacking in sufficient sincerity, real intent and faith in Christ to obtain the promised revelatory answer, and do so rather than allow myself to automatically presume that I did sufficiently meet those three criteria. And if as a consequence of my failure to receive the promised answer I allowed myself to become exceedingly angry and embittered against God and the Church, I would hope that I would stop on occasion and seriously wonder if, given my proclivity to succumb to anger and resentment, the Lord hadn’t done me a very great favor by leaving me in the dark, thereby mercifully preventing me from eventually sinning against the greater light. Those verses changed my life. They are true. 2
Teancum Posted June 7, 2022 Posted June 7, 2022 11 hours ago, teddyaware said: 4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a SINCERE HEART, with REAL INTENT, HAVING FAITH IN CHRIST, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost. 5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things. If Moroni’s promise was not fulfilled in my own life’s experience, I would hopefully humble myself enough before God to honestly evaluate the situation and consider the possibility that I might actually be lacking in sufficient sincerity, real intent and faith in Christ to obtain the promised revelatory answer, and do so rather than allow myself to automatically presume that I did sufficiently meet those three criteria. And if as a consequence of my failure to receive the promised answer I allowed myself to become exceedingly angry and embittered against God and the Church, I would hope that I would stop on occasion and seriously wonder if, given my proclivity to succumb to anger and resentment, the Lord hadn’t done me a very great favor by leaving me in the dark, thereby mercifully preventing me from eventually sinning against the greater light. Thank you for making my point. 3
ttribe Posted June 7, 2022 Posted June 7, 2022 23 hours ago, teddyaware said: 4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a SINCERE HEART, with REAL INTENT, HAVING FAITH IN CHRIST, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost. 5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things. If Moroni’s promise was not fulfilled in my own life’s experience, I would hopefully humble myself enough before God to honestly evaluate the situation and consider the possibility that I might actually be lacking in sufficient sincerity, real intent and faith in Christ to obtain the promised revelatory answer, and do so rather than allow myself to automatically presume that I did sufficiently meet those three criteria. And if as a consequence of my failure to receive the promised answer I allowed myself to become exceedingly angry and embittered against God and the Church, I would hope that I would stop on occasion and seriously wonder if, given my proclivity to succumb to anger and resentment, the Lord hadn’t done me a very great favor by leaving me in the dark, thereby mercifully preventing me from eventually sinning against the greater light. Do you really think your curbside-preacher demeanor is effective? 1
Recommended Posts