Under the Banner of Heaven Trailer

[Tacenda]

27 minutes ago, Calm said:

Where did the deaths take place?  I remember you mentioning it before and was thinking I remembered it, but hadn’t heard the backstory. 

Springville and BTW, the wife was mentally ill, and both she and her husband may have been taking some kind of drugs. 

Edited April 30, 2022 by Tacenda

[Calm]

30 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Springville and BTW, the wife was mentally ill, and both she and her husband may have been taking some kind of drugs. 

When did it happen and was it on the south side of town, coming in on the Main Street?  I am thinking I may have driven past the house that night with all the police cars out. Can’t be that many family murders in Springville. 
 

Think I found it.  Maybe there was more than one family  

wrong link

added:  I had forgotten, this was actually in Mapleton. It is very close to Springville though.

https://kutv.com/amp/news/local/investigators-release-names-of-the-family-found-dead-in-mapleton

 
 

 

Edited April 30, 2022 by Calm

[mfbukowski]

On 4/26/2022 at 5:51 PM, ttribe said:

I'm not sure how you tell that part of the story without showing at least that portion of the Endowment.

You don't if you are a decent human being

If you are talking about a peeping Tom, do you sneak around your neighborhood looking for "real" teenager shots?

These are just excuses to profane what others find sacred.

Disgusting 

 

[Calm]

They told of a horrific murder making the conscious choice of never showing the body of the baby girl.  For somethings, it seems they were willing to work around it.  And did fine imo.

[webbles]

10 hours ago, sunstoned said:

My bad.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/27/arts/television/under-the-banner-of-heaven-jon-krakauer-dustin-lance-black.html

Thanks.  It doesn't actually talk about a link to the penalties.  It does talk about blood atonement which is similar but I see them as separate.

But I went through the Salt Lake Tribune and Daily Herald archives and found Salt Lake Tribune Aug 8, 1984 that said "The victims' throats were slashed in what police speculated may have been a ritualistic murder."  That might refer to the penalties so I'll accept that the link was made fairly early on.          

If you want to find more newspaper issues, here's links to daily issues of 1984 and 1985: Daily Herald and Salt Lake Tribune.  

The newspapers covered the trial for Dan between Jan 3-13 (this includes sentencing and jury selection).  The first day can be read at Daily Herald Jan 3, 1985 and Salt Lake Tribune Jan 3, 1985 (Herald has it on the front page, Tribune has it on the front page of the Local section).  The last day can be read at Daily Herald Jan 13, 1985 and Salt Lake Tribune Jan 12, 1985.

The newspapers covered the trial for Ron between Apr 25-May 8.  The first day can be read at Daily Herald Apr 25, 1985 and Salt Lake Tribune Apr 26, 1985.  The last day can be read at Daily Herald May 8, 1985 and Salt Lake Tribune May 8, 1985.

Edited April 30, 2022 by webbles

[Tacenda]

7 hours ago, Calm said:

When did it happen and was it on the south side of town, coming in on the Main Street?  I am thinking I may have driven past the house that night with all the police cars out. Can’t be that many family murders in Springville. 
 

Think I found it.  Maybe there was more than one family  

wrong link

added:  I had forgotten, this was actually in Mapleton. It is very close to Springville though.

https://kutv.com/amp/news/local/investigators-release-names-of-the-family-found-dead-in-mapleton

 
 

 

No, that's not the one...

https://www.deseret.com/2015/1/27/20557330/fear-of-pending-apocalypse-led-to-murder-suicides-of-springville-family-police-say  Edited: Wow, Scott would be so disappointed in the typo's throughout in this article. 

Here's another view...we may never get to the bottom of it all. 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/01/28/autopsy-reveals-utah-family-of-five-with-fixation-on-apocalypse-died-in-gruesome-murder-suicide/

Edited April 30, 2022 by Tacenda

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

11 hours ago, sunstoned said:

According to the Des News, one of them served in the Bishopric

Again. 🥲

[Tacenda]

Here's an interview with key characters of UTBOH.

https://radiowest.kuer.org/show/radiowest/2022-04-28/examining-fxs-under-the-banner-of-heaven

GUESTS

Dustin Lance Black | @DLanceBlack Creator and screenwriter of FX’s Under the Banner of Heaven 

Actor Andrew Garfield, who plays Detective Jeb Pyre 

Actor Sam Worthington| @_SamWorthington who plays Ron Lafferty

[Calm]

3 hours ago, webbles said:

Thanks.  It doesn't actually talk about a link to the penalties.  It does talk about blood atonement which is similar but I see them as separate.

I posted in one of the threads that DL, who claims responsibility for both murders, says he killed them like in scripture.  Since blood atonement is in the OT, that works without the temple needing to be the source, so matches DL’s comment. (I am not bothered if it is from temple, I just want the info to be accurate and based on what was said by the killers, not others drawing conclusions.)

Thanks for the archived articles.  Will be reading.  Get so little from anything current as they spend most time talking of the series.

Edited April 30, 2022 by Calm

[ttribe]

16 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

You don't if you are a decent human being

If you are talking about a peeping Tom, do you sneak around your neighborhood looking for "real" teenager shots?

These are just excuses to profane what others find sacred.

Disgusting 

 

Your comparison was not even close to what's being discussed here, but I'm sure that won't stop you from expressing your moral outrage about the public presentation of a version of a ritual which hasn't been used in over thirty years.

Personally, I find it disgusting that my former faith held onto a ritual which included movements mimicking the slitting of throats, disemboweling oneself, and holding out your hand to catch your own bowels, until 1990. Obviously, your mileage varies.

[Peacefully]

16 minutes ago, ttribe said:

Your comparison was not even close to what's being discussed here, but I'm sure that won't stop you from expressing your moral outrage about the public presentation of a version of a ritual which hasn't been used in over thirty years.

Personally, I find it disgusting that my former faith held onto a ritual which included movements mimicking the slitting of throats, disemboweling oneself, and holding out your hand to catch your own bowels, until 1990. Obviously, your mileage varies.

Makes me glad I wasn’t endowed until 1993:( 

[ttribe]

Just now, Peacefully said:

Makes me glad I wasn’t endowed until 1993:( 

I was 1991, but my mother had made me aware of the changes just before I went through. At the time, I was a bit too overwhelmed to really process the meaning(s) of it all.

[jkwilliams]

11 minutes ago, ttribe said:

I was 1991, but my mother had made me aware of the changes just before I went through. At the time, I was a bit too overwhelmed to really process the meaning(s) of it all.

1983 for me. I was relieved by the changes in 1990. I completely understand why my dad went through the temple on his wedding day and didn’t go back until the day before I left for the MTC. 

[Calm]

I was 1980. Didn’t bother me at all. (The only thing that has ever bothered me was the veil and only because I am a bit claustrophobic and it becomes hard to relax and breathe; don’t mind the symbolism at all, love the idea of veils actually, creating a portable, intimate sacred space, always wanted drapes around my bed, drapes in doorways). Was a bit amused to be honest. Liked the idea of getting out of our usual head space, it was beauty in that way, but knew for my older relatives it didn’t take them anywhere that  novel.  It was for them just another way to make a promise, like cross your heart hope to die means nothing of the sort to the vast majority of kids who say that.  (Which is good as it worked well for them.)

All these mild mannered relatives, friends and strangers being uncivilized in such a civilized place.  My grandmothers and grandfather were there.  Even Grandma Gertie, who I think of as a bit of a warrior, iron for her spine…just such a juxtaposition.  Something primitive…so Old Testament, but a very non primitive space (Oakland Temple).  Should have been stone or adobe brick.

It was pure symbolism for me, about being all in, body and soul.  I think it would have been more intimidating  if we weren’t veiled, robed, and the hats, but white sleeveless sheaths…and maybe simpler spaces…that would have focused more on the penalties, imo, but as a whole, everything in my environment drew any sense of danger or threat from ritual.  All too civilized. It was just a ceremonial dance.  Powerful in many ways, but not crude violence as many have expressed their reaction.

Now if I was aware of anyone being abusive…even just verbally…and saw them perform such a physical movement, totally different message, but at that point I had never been personally confronted with physical abuse or known anything about it that I can remember besides in my psych classes in a clinical way. 

I am very grateful it has been changed for those who have had violence in their lives or who were pulled into feeling violence so much that they disconnected from the rest of the ritual.

Edited May 1, 2022 by Calm

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

It was just a ceremonial dance.

 

2 hours ago, Calm said:

I am very grateful it has been changed for those who have had violence in their lives or who were pulled into feeling violence so much that they disconnected from the rest of the ritual.

Nicely put, I agree.

You see what you want to see or what has been described before you see it, now there are folks who will never "see" what they have never seen in any other way, or understand it allegorically.

The poison pen

It assures that fewer people will decipher, or even try decipher the "semaphore code" of other gestures and motions

And they will attend for years in blissful ignorance. Not even seeing what is right before their eyes.

Very sad

 

Edited May 1, 2022 by mfbukowski

[webbles]

On 4/29/2022 at 10:14 PM, sunstoned said:

My bad.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/27/arts/television/under-the-banner-of-heaven-jon-krakauer-dustin-lance-black.html

I posted this in the other thread but since we were discussing it here, thought I'd also put it here.  Hoffman testified during Ron's second trial in 1996.  In his testimony, he said that Dan told him that Ron had attempted to kill Brenda solely by choking her.  Ron told Dan that she was dead and Dan only cut her throat because he somehow noticed that she was still alive.  You can read Hoffman's testimony in the Daily Herald, Apr 10 issue.  Dan's testimony is in the Daily Herald, Apr 3 issue.  Dan says that he tied the the cord around her neck and then left to deal with the daughter and then came back and killed Brenda.  So Ron wasn't doing this for blood atonement or even as a ritualistic killing.  He was fine with just chocking Brenda to death.

[Tacenda]

13 hours ago, ttribe said:

Your comparison was not even close to what's being discussed here, but I'm sure that won't stop you from expressing your moral outrage about the public presentation of a version of a ritual which hasn't been used in over thirty years.

Personally, I find it disgusting that my former faith held onto a ritual which included movements mimicking the slitting of throats, disemboweling oneself, and holding out your hand to catch your own bowels, until 1990. Obviously, your mileage varies.

I'm sure the current generation will think that's bunk, and how could it be true. But I was there and lived it and really don't want my kids knowing it. It was wrong.

[Hamba Tuhan]

11 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I was there and lived it and really don't want my kids knowing it. It was wrong.

Whenever I attend a Catholic mass, I see parents encourage their older children to go to the front and engage in ritual cannibalism. It's blatant child abuse.

[mfbukowski]

Just now, Hamba Tuhan said:

Whenever I attend a Catholic mass, I see parents encourage their older children to go to the front and engage in ritual cannibalism. It's blatant child abuse.

Wow!

But yes, excellent parallel!

Human death for God is just an assignment across the Veil where the wayward soul can get good instruction and turn around and make his progression positive, if he chooses.

 

[Nofear]

Here is a video of Allen Lafferty and his wife (not Brenda -- she was murdered) talking about the temple. His portrayal in the show is ... different.

 

[mfbukowski]

11 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I'm sure the current generation will think that's bunk, and how could it be true. But I was there and lived it and really don't want my kids knowing it. It was wrong.

Think about the actual wording.

It talks about methods of taking life, it does NOT say it's going to happen to YOU.

And it could be spiritual death- that's the real threat which is far worse. Anyone revealing what they promised God NOT to reveal is the only one who should BE threatened, but they don't believe it anyway!

Where's the threat???

And besides, physical death still allows for repentance on the other side.

Dying should not be threatening to a faithful member, everyone dies sooner or later, it is only a threat to those not ready 

[Calm]

I don’t know if this got posted or not, too many things to keep track of. 

https://www.theculturalhallpodcast.com/2022/04/27/under-the-banner-of-heaven-red-carpet-ep-598-the-cultural-hall/

interviews cast and crew

Edited May 2, 2022 by Calm

[mfbukowski]

On 4/30/2022 at 5:38 PM, ttribe said:

Your comparison was not even close to what's being discussed here, but I'm sure that won't stop you from expressing your moral outrage about the public presentation of a version of a ritual which hasn't been used in over thirty years.

Personally, I find it disgusting that my former faith held onto a ritual which included movements mimicking the slitting of throats, disemboweling oneself, and holding out your hand to catch your own bowels, until 1990. Obviously, your mileage varies.

YOUR inconsistent interpretation, a sure sign of logical contradiction, probably purposeful to make it ridiculously controversial 

You switch from third person plural, "slitting of throats" to someone committing hari kari, first person singular.

So is this murder or suicide????? Who is supposedly doing this?

Inconsistent and blatantly false and absurd, not to mention disgusting.

Yes, THANK GOD, interpretations vary 

Edited May 2, 2022 by mfbukowski

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Think about the actual wording.

It talks about methods of taking life, it does NOT say it's going to happen to YOU.

And it could be spiritual death- that's the real threat which is far worse. Anyone revealing what they promised God NOT to reveal is the only one who should BE threatened, but they don't believe it anyway!

Where's the threat???

And besides, physical death still allows for repentance on the other side.

Dying should not be threatening to a faithful member, everyone dies sooner or later, it is only a threat to those not ready 

It was wrong or why else is it no longer happening? 

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

And it could be spiritual death- that's the real threat which is far worse.

This is specifically what we discussed in our Sunday school class yesterday in relation to Exodus 31:15: 'Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death'.

Quoting Ben Spackman again:

Quote

Given that the text recounts the Israelites almost immediately engaging in idolatry and other serious problems, why don’t we have tons of stories of Israelites being killed for violating the Law, as implied by the simile curses? As far as I know, we don’t have any ...

Simile curses were intended to depict the seriousness of the covenant, not a literal, legal thing to be carried out by human society ...

And in fact, from the beginning, provision was made for people to escape this symbolic threat of death:

Quote

The agreed-upon covenantal penalty for violating the terms of the covenant, was still carried out, but by proxy, on a male animal without blemish. Having made and ratified the covenant by sacrifice (Psa. 50:5), each sacrifice offered after that represented atonement for the person (Lev. 1:4), as well as a reminder and renewal of the original covenant ...

Though it should be obvious how this relates to Jesus and the Atonement, let me point out a few scriptures. Remember that “the reward of sin is death” (Rom. 6:23). Paul taught that Jesus “redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us — for it is written, ‘Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree.’” (Gal. 3:13). The Law of Moses specified in Deuteronomy 21:22-23 that someone who committed a crime worthy of death was cursed and their body would be publicly displayed on a tree or stake. Paul draws on that passage to show that Jesus, like the burnt offering, bears the curse of the covenant for us, goes in our place, and dies in our behalf. “Surely, he hath borne our sins, and carried our sorrows.” (Isa 53:4). 

The symbolic escape (blood sacrifice) from symbolic death (simile curses) was designed to teach people to have faith in a literal escape (by means of Jesus's shed blood) from the literal spiritual death that results from inevitably violating our covenants.

Significantly, in the modern temple drama, the only character who tries to scares us into fearing what will happen when/if we break our covenants is Satan, i.e., the father of all lies. In stark contrast, the Father appears, with Jesus at his right hand, and offers the Son as our redeemer.

I feel strongly that people can't be as ignorant of the role of rituals and symbols as they appear in this thread, or of the common language of sin and redemption; consequently, it seems to me that critics are willing to feign ignorance because it facilitates their insatiable desire to express outrage. The concept that the 'wages of sin is death' is essential to the doctrine of Christ. 'Disgust' with simile curses therefore is really just a rejection of the concept of sin and Atonement.

Edited May 2, 2022 by Hamba Tuhan