Under the Banner of Heaven Trailer

[Rivers]

2 hours ago, sunstoned said:

I would be interested in references on this. CFR on the temple penalties going back to the Old Testament.

Ben Spackman talked about this in a recent blog post on his website.

https://benspackman.com/2022/04/come-follow-me-the-law-of-moses-and-covenants/

Edited April 27, 2022 by Rivers

[Hamba Tuhan]

5 hours ago, Rivers said:

Ben Spackman talked about this in a recent blog post on his website.

The entire thing is worth a read, but here is a good section, quoting other Biblical scholars:

Quote

 

In Hebrew, one does not “make” a covenant. Rather, one “cuts” a covenant (Heb. karat berit), perhaps because, frequently, an animal is “cut” and killed in the covenant-making process. (Joseph Smith seems to have been particularly aware of this, as JST Hebrew 9:17-18 demonstrates. This passage is not included among the JST excerpts in the LDS KJV, but it can be read here.)¹ Normally, the person who brought the animal cut its throat with his right hand and collected the the blood with his left. This blood was the “blood of the covenant,” as in Exo 24:8. When instituting the sacrament, Jesus adapted the covenantal/sacrificial symbolism of the Law of Moses by calling the sacramental wine “my blood of the new covenant.” ( Matt. 26:28.)

In effect, the sacrificed animal stood as a proxy, as a physical representation of the covenant-maker if they failed to live up to the terms of the covenant. (Well, maybe. See below). Scholars refer to physical symbolism as a “simile curse.” In Exodus 24, the “blood of the covenant” is splashed on the Israelites, as the blood would be if their throats had been cut as the animal’s throat had been cut. This is widely recognized. The sprinkling of blood on the people was a

symbolic action in which the people were identified with the sacrificed animal, so that the fate of the latter is presented as the fate to be expected by the people if they violated their sacred promise (i.e., it is a form of self-curse). Thus the ratification ceremony was, in effect, the pledging of their lives as a guarantee of obedience to the divine will.”

-Anchor Bible Dictionary, 1:1185 “Covenant.”

For a concurring analysis,

The sprinkling of blood is a ritualized oath-curse—in technical terminology, a Drohitus. The sprinkled blood of the slain animals represents the curse of death that both parties invoke upon themselves should they prove unfaithful to their covenantal obligations. The mutual sprinkling of blood may also convey the idea that both parties now share one blood—that is, they have become kin.

– Hahn, Kinship by Covenant, 47.

 

 

Edited April 27, 2022 by Hamba Tuhan

[Nofear]

Consultant to the movie posted some thoughts: https://www.facebook.com/1574530763/posts/10223755618389823/?d=n
 

My favorite line, "Again, I tried everywhere I could to give every type of Mormon experience the dignity it deserves, where I had the ability to do so." On a previous facebook post she wrote, "When people say they can’t see themselves in this at all, I think, 'Really? Not at all? Nothing? Well, that sort of hubris is concerning.'" I think that sentiment communicates the dignity she thinks every Mormon experience deserves.

 

[sunstoned]

On 4/26/2022 at 11:51 PM, webbles said:

Was the link between the murder and the temple part of the original case?  I can't find any thing on whether the Laffertys connected the two and reading on the method of murder, I'm not really seeing a strong resemblance between the temple penalties.  Throat cutting is a fairly common form of murder.

Here is an interview from the with Jon Krakauer and Dustin Lance Black where they talk about the connection.

[latterdaytemplar]

On 4/26/2022 at 9:06 PM, ttribe said:

Wait, are you claiming the the penalties specifically in the pre-1991 LDS Endowment, namely the slitting of ones throat from ear to ear and the disemboweling, go back to the Old Testament? Do you have evidence for that claim?

Perhaps not the exact penalties, but I would agree that the general concept of penalties has Biblical precedent.

https://masonicfind.com/what-are-masonic-penalties

[webbles]

14 hours ago, sunstoned said:

Here is an interview from the with Jon Krakauer and Dustin Lance Black where they talk about the connection.

Did you forget to add the link?

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

On 4/26/2022 at 8:51 PM, ttribe said:

 

Lafferty mimicked the penalties from the pre-1991 Endowment in the murders. I'm not sure how you tell that part of the story without showing at least that portion of the Endowment.

Not sure I agree, as he vowed to never speak of, and certainly not show what goes on in the Temple. A man or woman word should mean something, forever. 

[Calm]

10 minutes ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

Not sure I agree, as he vowed to never speak of, and certainly not show what goes on in the Temple. A man or woman word should mean something, forever. 

I can’t find if he went on a mission or not.  If he didn’t, good chance he was never endowed.  He never made the vow.

Found a reference where he said he took art classes instead of going on a mission.  Highly unlikely to have been endowed.

Edited April 30, 2022 by Calm

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

A note to add, there are things that childhood friends have asked me to never reveal, also family members, and coworkers, who have asked me to never tell anyone. Therefore, I will take it to my grave, as I don’t want to die with a lie on my lips. The only way I would break that oath, is if that person harmed a child, then all bets would be off. 

[jkwilliams]

5 minutes ago, Calm said:

I can’t find if he went on a mission or not.  If he didn’t, good chance he was never endowed.  He never made the vow.

Found a reference where he said he took art classes instead of going on a mission.  Highly unlikely to have been endowed.

I was just reading that Ron served a mission in Florida, and Dan in Scotland. 

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

5 minutes ago, Calm said:

I can’t find if he went on a mission or not.  If he didn’t, good chance he was never endowed.  He never made the vow.

Found a reference where he said he took art classes instead of going on a mission.  Highly unlikely to have been endowed.

This is somewhat comforting, however someone taught, or showed him the Temple Ceremony. So, I will pray for whomever did break their vow.  

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

1 minute ago, jkwilliams said:

I was just reading that Ron served a mission in Florida, and Dan in Scotland. 

😥

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

42 minutes ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

A note to add, there are things that childhood friends have asked me to never reveal, also family members, and coworkers, who have asked me to never tell anyone. Therefore, I will take it to my grave, as I don’t want to die with a lie on my lips. The only way I would break that oath, is if that person harmed a child, then all bets would be off. Also, of the many Bishop Courts or Counsels, never a work, to anyone, including my wife. 

 

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

43 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I was just reading that Ron served a mission in Florida, and Dan in Scotland. 

Thanks for the info John, but this just saddens even more. 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, jkwilliams said:

I was just reading that Ron served a mission in Florida, and Dan in Scotland. 

I thought he was talking about the writer, Black.  The one who was telling the story. 

Edited April 30, 2022 by Calm

[sunstoned]

14 hours ago, webbles said:

Did you forget to add the link?

My bad.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/27/arts/television/under-the-banner-of-heaven-jon-krakauer-dustin-lance-black.html

[sunstoned]

3 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

I was just reading that Ron served a mission in Florida, and Dan in Scotland. 

I thought that Dan met his wife in Scotland while on his mission.

[sunstoned]

2 hours ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

Thanks for the info John, but this just saddens even more. 

According to the Des News, one of them served in the Bishopric:

Quote

What most neighbors wonder is how two good Mormon boys, including one who would serve as a bishop's counselor, could commit murder in the name of God.

https://www.deseret.com/2004/7/27/19841799/ron-lafferty-dan-lafferty-murders-utah-1984-case-still-haunts

[sunstoned]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

I thought he was talking about the writer, Black.  The one who was telling the story. 

I found this about Ron and Dan.  It looks like both served:

Quote

For years, Ron had followed the script for successful young church members: He served a church mission in Florida and then returned to Utah to get married, have children and get a job. 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-9736509/Brutal-1984-murders-mother-15-month-old-daughter-explored-new-true-crime-series.html

Quote

Dan Lafferty married his wife Matilda who he met when he came to Scotland for a missionary trip.

https://gossipnextdoor.com/dan-lafferty-bio-wife-daughter-age-today-still-alive/

[Calm]

18 minutes ago, sunstoned said:

I thought that Dan met his wife in Scotland while on his mission.

Series says so. He liked her sister first. Then it got weird. Weirder. 

Edited April 30, 2022 by Calm

[sunstoned]

43 minutes ago, Calm said:

Series says so. He liked her sister first. Then it got weird. Weirder. 

I have some history with this family, and it totally blows my mind that people could go off the rails that that.  

[Tacenda]

I'm learning more and more...I had thought it was Ron who killed them, not Dan. But Ron was the mastermind and Dan followed through. He is the one that was most likely responsible for my husband's niece's husband's brother's family to commit suicide. It's been in some articles that have popped up alongside anything to do with the Lafferty's. This niece's husband grew up in a polygamist family and later joined the church before serving a mission. I'm assuming they knew Dan through that connection. Dan is pure evil, IMO. 

[Calm]

15 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

He is the one that was most likely responsible for my husband's niece's husband's brother's family to commit suicide. 

The whole family committed suicide?

[Tacenda]

13 minutes ago, Calm said:

The whole family committed suicide?

All but the one son who was out that evening. Just read an article, I guess the wife read the book UTBOH and started writing letters to Dan and then she started to fall in love with him and she and her husband would make weekly visits. They believed he was the prophet Elijah and thought there would be an apocalypse soon.  Not sure how accurate the article is though. And didn't question my husband's niece's husband about it.

[Calm]

18 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

All but the one son who was out that evening. Just read an article, I guess the wife read the book UTBOH and started writing letters to Dan and then she started to fall in love with him and she and her husband would make weekly visits. They believed he was the prophet Elijah and thought there would be an apocalypse soon.  Not sure how accurate the article is though. And didn't question my husband's niece's husband about it.

Where did the deaths take place?  I remember you mentioning it before and was thinking I remembered it, but hadn’t heard the backstory. 

Edited April 30, 2022 by Calm