The private real estate portfolio of the Church

[JustAnAustralian]

54 minutes ago, Calm said:

This is it?  No info about each dot?  Not even the ones personally verified as over $20 million?  We are just supposed to take their word for it?

There's very little actual information without going into google maps and street view to see what's actually there.

Top 10 (based on assessed values)

apn

acreage

address

Assessed Value

Asset Category

city

coordinates

county

Land Use Description

Listed Owners

Market Value

state

Tax Year

zip

09-31-352-011-0000

6.88

47 E South Temple

172269400

Mixed Use

Salt Lake City

[-111.8891776473, 40.7707600529]

Salt Lake County

Mixed Use: Office/Retail

Corp Of Pb Of Ch Jc Of LDS

172269400

UT

2019

84150

08-36-477-029-0000

10

60 W North Temple

160404000

Special Purpose

Salt Lake City

[-111.8925163022, 40.7725999138]

Salt Lake County

Religious

Salt Lake Tabernacle Corporation, Temple Salt Lake, Corporation Of The Presiding Bishop Of T

160404000

UT

2019

84150

88-1146359

2.1126

1601 Vine St

151859800

Multifamily

Philadelphia

[-75.1666210369, 39.959034553]

Philadelphia County

Multi Family (General)

Corp Of The Presiding Bis

151859800

PA

2019

19103

R-4316-00C-002B-1

29.656

1751 Cityline Dr

106556150

Office

Richardson

[-96.690184647, 33.001103929]

Collin County

Office Building

Property Reserve Inc

106556150

TX

2019

75082

216885

16.4062

13600 Kruse Oaks Blvd

65673740

Commercial General/Misc.

Lake Oswego

[-122.7421921315, 45.4251027274]

Clackamas County

Commercial (General)

Temple Corp Latter Day Sts, Lds Church Tax Division

103423213

OR

2019

97035

16-06-101-035-0000

0.86

60 E South Temple

94076900

Retail

Salt Lake City

[-111.889046067, 40.7689726151]

Salt Lake County

Shopping Center

Corporation of The President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, City Creek Reserve Inc, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints

94076900

UT

2019

84111

16-06-101-024-0000

0.3934

1 S Main St

74976300

Mixed Use

Salt Lake City

[-111.8903945739, 40.7690429298]

Salt Lake County

Mixed Use: Office/Retail

Corporation of The President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, City Creek Reserve Inc, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints

74976300

UT

2019

84133

15-01-227-060-0000

0.3506

15 W South Temple

73346600

Mixed Use

Salt Lake City

[-111.8917951897, 40.7690157601]

Salt Lake County

Mixed Use: Office/Retail

Corporation of The President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, City Creek Reserve Inc, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints

73346600

UT

2019

84101

16-06-101-033-0000

0.01

36 S State St

71396600

Mixed Use

Salt Lake City

[-111.8888310209, 40.7683503594]

Salt Lake County

Mixed Use: Office/Retail

Willows of Salt Lake City Inc, Corporation of The President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, Suki Hana of City Creek Inc, City Creek Reserve Inc

71396600

UT

2019

84111

15-01-227-062-2002

0.01

50 S Main St

68590000

Retail

Salt Lake City

[-111.8934210827, 40.7685194922]

Salt Lake County

Shopping Center

Corporation of The President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, City Creek Reserve Inc, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints

68590000

UT

2019

84101

 

35 minutes ago, Calm said:

So the only commonality I am seeing is in Owners, Corporation of the Pres Bish etc.

From the details in the list, the church doesn't even have exclusive ownership over some of the things on the list

 

0328-042-10-0000

7.71

470804

Vacant Land

Running Springs

[-117.1326319743, 34.2232965826]

San Bernardino County

General Vacant Land

Chu, Venture Christian Church, Yevgeniya Kapshanyan

470804

CA

2019

92382

 

303-55-008-D

5.2737

25100 S Riggs Ranch Rd

86325

Special Purpose

Chandler

[-111.7971006791, 33.2199512419]

Maricopa County

Religious

Town Of Gilbert Arizona

575500

AZ

2019

85249

Edited April 6, 2022 by JustAnAustralian

[Scott Lloyd]

I’m far more 

2 hours ago, Amulek said:

Interesting.

Also worth noting was the previous article: Truth & Transparency has one last news story; will cease operations thereafter

So, be sure to get all of your commenting out of your system, as the OP appears to be the last we will be hearing from Ryan McKnight for the foreseeable future - with the possible exception of drive by postings here on the board.

 

I’m far more interested in McKnight & Co. being obliged to close up shop than I am in the real estate holdings. Looks like the Jehovah’s Witnesses play hardball. 

Edited April 6, 2022 by Scott Lloyd

[Amulek]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

Hmmmm. I wonder why?  Maybe they didn’t have as much source material as they thought they would. 

I think that's probably a big part of it. 

 

[Amulek]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

They should have stuck with Saints.  The Witnesses went after them and won iirc.

Well, they won by attrition.

Unable to raise the funds necessary to mount a legal defense, it was cheaper for them to settle and put the whole thing behind them. 

Honestly, I don't care for this kind of behavior. I am grateful the Church wasn't the one employing this as a tactic. 

Note to antis: be sure to set up shop in states with more robust anti-SLAPP statutes. 

 

[Amulek]

14 hours ago, Calm said:

Going into the data…

Quote

You can run standard postgresql SQL queries here against all of your private repos and any public data on bit.io.

Anyone speak geek?

PostgreSQL is just a relational database management system. Think of it as being the free, open source version of Microsoft SQL. 

Postgres and MySQL are probably the two biggest (free) alternatives to Microsoft's offerings. 

The note is just saying that you can use standard database queries to search the database itself. If I get some free time tomorrow I may try to throw a few DROP TABLE requests just to make sure they've set things up properly.  

Edited April 6, 2022 by Amulek
Wow. Lots of spelling / grammar mistakes. No more rapid posting for me. ;)

[JAHS]

1 hour ago, Buckeye said:

It’s missing my stake center. I feel left out. 

I couldn't see mine at first either but when I zoomed in real close I saw it was marked.

 

[helix]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

Hmmmm. I wonder why?  Maybe they didn’t have as much source material as they thought they would. 

Legal troubles.  Frankly, they're amateurs, and have had a history of getting themselves into sticky issues which could be easily avoided.  Their complaints often come with an attitude that their purpose is important enough that they should be above the law.  Their latest legal trouble is paying a settlement to the Jehovas Witnesses.

I'm not sad one bit.  Before their days doing this foundation, they used to troll faithful internet forums specifically to create brigades and fights.  They've never had a good moral ground in anything they've done. 

[rpn]

I cannot find the dot in the upper right hand corner of the map.    Can anyone explain how to get to the details of the map?

I think I found it in the left upper side under the plus and minus.   What I was looking for is the explanation for most of FL.  I think the coloring is off.  Yes the church owns a lot of acreage around orlando, and some in the panhandle between tlh and destin.   But other than those two areas of acreages, the rest is 3-5 acres chapels and stake centers and institute buildings.

And interestingly, the huge cattle operation in Nebraska doesn't appear to be identified.

Edited April 6, 2022 by rpn

[JAHS]

11 minutes ago, rpn said:

I cannot find the dot in the upper right hand corner of the map.    Can anyone explain how to get to the details of the map?

I think I found it in the left upper side under the plus and minus.   What I was looking for is the explanation for most of FL.  I think the coloring is off.  Yes the church owns a lot of acreage around orlando, and some in the panhandle between tlh and destin.   But other than those two areas of acreages, the rest is 3-5 acres chapels and stake centers and institute buildings.

And interestingly, the huge cattle operation in Nebraska doesn't appear to be identified.

The number details are at this link
https://bit.io/egd/lds-landholdings

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

.........................But those sheds and gazebos add up!  ................

They may list them separately because the permit process requires separate permits for each bldg, however small it may be.

[Kenngo1969]

2 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I just checked a town that I used to work in in the American West. Not one chapel is marked. Clearly, we own far more than is on this map!

 Bwah-hah-hah-hah-hah-hah-hah-hah-hah-hah-hah-hah-hah!!!  

[He said, with an Evil Laugh! ]

[Kenngo1969]

2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I’m far more 

I’m far more interested in McKnight & Co. being obliged to close up shop than I am in the real estate holdings. Looks like the Jehovah’s Witnesses play hardball. 

It's a lot easier to hit people when they are unlikely to hit back (cf. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and Jehovah's Witnesses).  

[strappinglad]

4 hours ago, The Nehor said:

That shed hides an ICBM silo.

I've been inside an ICBM silo.  They are going to need a bigger shed !

[JustAnAustralian]

6 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

I've been inside an ICBM silo.  They are going to need a bigger shed !

Just pick a closer continent.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

They may list them separately because the permit process requires separate permits for each bldg, however small it may be.

I did figure that, but the only two other structures for the last two dots that I remember are parking lot lights or pavement. My guess is they are doing it by plot as well.  It wasn’t a parking lot until 15 years ago iirc when the chapel was renovated.  It hasn’t been my chapel for awhile so I may be blurry on specifics, but I think there used to be a house or some sheds there before it was a parking lot.  I need to see if I can check county records to see if I am right, but later.  Or ask my daughter in law who has lived down the street from the chapel almost all of her primaries life…when they get back from vacation. 

Edited April 6, 2022 by Calm

[Calm]

3 hours ago, helix said:

Before their days doing this foundation, they used to troll faithful internet forums specifically to create brigades and fights.  They've never had a good moral ground in anything they've done. 

I was going to CFR you, but the map has been such a disappointment (I have had fun dissecting a few of their offerings for what they could tell us about the operations of the Church), I’m really not curious enough to make you do the work. A rabbit hole I am too uninterested in to jump down. Mark the calendar for a first. 

[bsjkki]

All the dots by me are chapels. They look grey which is for special purposes or vacant land. Does special purpose mean church buildings?

Edited April 6, 2022 by bsjkki

[Calm]

1 hour ago, bsjkki said:

All the dots by me are chapels. They look great which is for special purposes or vacant land. Does special purpose mean church buildings?

Iirc the garages in NY were grey as well.  Made me wonder if they were parking for a chapel that wasn’t marked.  Never been to NY to see how they handled churches inside the city.

Edited April 6, 2022 by Calm

[LoudmouthMormon]

16 hours ago, Calm said:

Turns out not everyone can make a living from running anti sites.  If you are going to have to risk your own money, it is not so fun.

I'm thinking hardly anyone can do it these decades.  The number shrinks every year.  The Catholic Answers Forum and it's beloved "other faiths" board died in 2020 or '21.  The Reachout Trust countercult forum died 5 years previously.  

The heydays of the 80's and 90's where folks could sell books and get speaking fees at Baptist churches are over.  All that's left are people who will be eternally angry that Daniel Peterson exists.  And there just ain't any money in hating any more.

[rongo]

15 minutes ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

I'm thinking hardly anyone can do it these decades.  The number shrinks every year.  The Catholic Answers Forum and it's beloved "other faiths" board died in 2020 or '21.  The Reachout Trust countercult forum died 5 years previously.  

The heydays of the 80's and 90's where folks could sell books and get speaking fees at Baptist churches are over.  All that's left are people who will be eternally angry that Daniel Peterson exists.  And there just ain't any money in hating any more.

I've noticed a real drop in animosity and interest in this area compared to the 80s and 90s as well. The real threat and drag on churches and retention of young adults and youth now is secularism and skepticism (with related kindred social issues). 

[Analytics]

18 hours ago, bluebell said:

Hmmmm. I wonder why?  Maybe they didn’t have as much source material as they thought they would. 

There was a ton of material.

The problem is that the JW lawsuit cost them tens of thousands of dollars to settle (they said "To be clear, Truth & Transparency maintains that we did not violate any of Watch Tower’s copyright, however, without the funds to make our arguments in court, we had no choice but to settle"), and they couldn't secure serious funding without a board, but they couldn't set up a board without liability insurance, but they couldn't get liability insurance because it was astronomically expensive.

When that all fell apart and they had more personal hardships (e.g. Dodge's wife almost dying in an accident), they needed to get jobs and move on with their lives.

The good news is that "the death of the foundation, however, does not mean the dream of truth and transparency is over, McKnight says. He and Dodge plan to continue reporting on the LDS Church and religious accountability. They may just find other vehicles to carry it forward."

After exposing LDS Church wealth, apostle pay and abuse allegations, this nonprofit is shutting down (sltrib.com)

 

[bluebell]

30 minutes ago, Analytics said:

There was a ton of material.

The problem is that the JW lawsuit cost them tens of thousands of dollars to settle (they said "To be clear, Truth & Transparency maintains that we did not violate any of Watch Tower’s copyright, however, without the funds to make our arguments in court, we had no choice but to settle"), and they couldn't secure serious funding without a board, but they couldn't set up a board without liability insurance, but they couldn't get liability insurance because it was astronomically expensive.

When that all fell apart and they had more personal hardships (e.g. Dodge's wife almost dying in an accident), they needed to get jobs and move on with their lives.

The good news is that "the death of the foundation, however, does not mean the dream of truth and transparency is over, McKnight says. He and Dodge plan to continue reporting on the LDS Church and religious accountability. They may just find other vehicles to carry it forward."

After exposing LDS Church wealth, apostle pay and abuse allegations, this nonprofit is shutting down (sltrib.com)

 

When was the last time that they reported on the LDS church in any significant way.  I wouldn't personally think that the topic of this thread would count since there is no evidence of wrongdoing and it's not really showing much that wasn't already assumed. It seems like it's been years.  Has the JW lawsuit been going on that long?  I honestly have no idea.  I didn't even know these guys were still around until this thread, and had even less of an idea that they were being sued.

It's interesting that with so many people willing to fund Dehlin, few would fund these guys.  Especially if there is so much out there with the potential to make the church look bad (if there really is a ton of material in other words).  It seems like their audience would eat that up.

I hope Dodge's wife was able to make a recovery.  That would be incredibly stressful.

[Analytics]

14 minutes ago, bluebell said:

When was the last time that they reported on the LDS church in any significant way.

According to the Tribune article, they got a ton of criticism for the Mckenna Denson affair, and that really demotivated them. 

14 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I wouldn't personally think that the topic of this thread would count since there is no evidence of wrongdoing and it's not really showing much that wasn't already assumed.

My impression is that they aren't trying to shine light on wrongdoing so much as shine light on things that the Church keeps hidden from members. For example, some would argue that the most significant thing they leaked was the salaries general authorities make. There is nothing wrong with how much general authorities are paid (apart from being hypocritical to criticize other churches for having paid ministries)--it's just something that the Church keeps secret.

14 minutes ago, bluebell said:

It seems like it's been years.  Has the JW lawsuit been going on that long?  I honestly have no idea.  I didn't even know these guys were still around until this thread, and had even less of an idea that they were being sued.

Yea. the JW lawsuit began right when the pandemic began, and they've been pretty defunct ever since.

14 minutes ago, bluebell said:

It's interesting that with so many people willing to fund Dehlin, few would fund these guys.  Especially if there is so much out there with the potential to make the church look bad (if there really is a ton of material in other words).  It seems like their audience would eat that up.

A huge part of it is that Dehlin is a much better fundraiser and created a community that people interact with and has become a part of their lives. Dehlin has a continuous stream of new content--if you like his podcasts, you tune in every week to hear what he has to say, and are thus continuously bombarded with his pleas for donations. If MormonLeaks posted something new and important, I bet many people tuned in to Mormon Stories to hear about it and ended up making donations to Dehlin.

14 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I hope Dodge's wife was able to make a recovery.  That would be incredibly stressful.

Yes, me too.

[bluebell]

27 minutes ago, Analytics said:

According to the Tribune article, they got a ton of criticism for the Mckenna Denson affair, and that really demotivated them. 

My impression is that they aren't trying to shine light on wrongdoing so much as shine light on things that the Church keeps hidden from members. For example, some would argue that the most significant thing they leaked was the salaries general authorities make. There is nothing wrong with how much general authorities are paid (apart from being hypocritical to criticize other churches for having paid ministries)--it's just something that the Church keeps secret.

Yea. the JW lawsuit began right when the pandemic began, and they've been pretty defunct ever since.

A huge part of it is that Dehlin is a much better fundraiser and created a community that people interact with and has become a part of their lives. Dehlin has a continuous stream of new content--if you like his podcasts, you tune in every week to hear what he has to say, and are thus continuously bombarded with his pleas for donations. If MormonLeaks posted something new and important, I bet many people tuned in to Mormon Stories to hear about it and ended up making donations to Dehlin.

Yes, me too.

I found the quote below to be really interesting. 

Quote

“When we released the tape of McKenna Denson confronting Joseph Bishop, that was the first time in my life I’d had to deal with and process so much criticism,” Dodge says. “I don’t think I’ve ever second-guessed myself more than I did in the weeks after that.”

Interesting because it shows a tiny bit of commonality between what Dodge was going through and what the leadership of the church goes through, in dealing with criticism that is personally aimed.  There is a bit of equity in it.  Trying to make a living exposing information by opening it up to public criticism and then having to deal with that in your own life.  Especially criticism that you don't believe is fair. 

Anyone who sets out, with sincere intentions, to do that to someone else would probably benefit from experiencing it themselves.  So that they better understand the power they are wielding and its consequences to others.  I think it could help them to wield the power more responsibly. 

Too many want to have that kind of power but also want to risk nothing by using it.  That doesn't often end well.

Edited April 6, 2022 by bluebell

[rockpond]

19 hours ago, JustAnAustralian said:

Row Labels	Sum of acreage	Sum of Market Value	Sum of Assessed Value
Agricultural	858,941.07	1,957,191,571.00	671,340,561.00
Commercial General/Misc.	1,985.25	274,847,362.00	219,171,570.00
Easements/Personal Prop/Other	15,422.63	43,686,584.00	100,749,512.00
Hospitality	28.23	51,731,167.00	44,936,076.00
Industrial	1,030.45	414,267,063.00	391,320,510.00
Mixed Use	128.02	626,940,337.00	569,108,055.00
Multifamily	506.63	603,380,822.00	547,728,628.00
Office	905.88	462,239,602.00	416,396,684.00
Public & Semi-Public	73,660.64	928,528,091.00	745,844,775.00
Retail	415.29	544,927,994.00	523,539,758.00
Special Purpose	21,471.07	8,729,701,452.00	6,912,900,170.00
Vacant Land	780,132.27	1,073,736,414.00	577,399,879.00
(blank)
Grand Total	1,754,627.43	15,711,178,459.00	11,720,436,178.00

 

Looking at my little corner of Colorado, I can tell you that all of the "Special Purpose" properties are existing meetinghouses.  And if that's true across the board then, according to @JustAnAustralian's pivot table, about half of the market value of the Church's real estate portfolio is church buildings.

The only other "dots" in my area are "Vacant Land" and I've been told from a very reliable source in SLC that that particular property has been earmarked for the Temple Department.  I don't expect an announcement anytime soon though.  We still have seats to fill in our other two temples and the third was announced for the Western part of the state.