Family proclamation founded on irrevocable doctrine: President Oaks

[Fether]

35 minutes ago, kimpearson said:

Mean while those gay, lesbian, bi, intersex, transgender, non binary, asexual, gender fluid babies keep being born in members homes.  They grow up and realize that if they acknowledge the very core of their soul and seek to find the happiness and joy promised to their cisgender, heterosexual brothers and sister in this life, they will be cast out of the Church.  As President Oaks said in his talk quite clearly, the primary  purpose of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints to help it members achieve the celestial kingdom.  Everyone else can go somewhere else or have different beliefs.  The Church will love you but you don't fit in the Church's work.  The feelings inside these children are the opposition and Satan is behind all opposition.  Then those kids start to have mental problems, feel no self worth, contemplate suicide (because as so many of you have stated, you will get fixed in the next life) if they try to stay in the Church or they realized that under Church doctrine they are an abomination because what their soul tells them to do.  Most then leave.  The few that stay are pretty screwed up for the most part.  It's a beautiful picture that any faithful member of the Church would feel and grow in their love of Father in Heaven.  Just look at all the lives of our queer brothers and sisters and the gospel.  It's a picture that builds testimonies and increases love per most of the posts above, at least that is the implication because that is what the gospel is supposed to do.

I stand amazed and awed at the support you all express for doctrine and teachings that destroy almost every life it applies too.  I guess I am a little confused on what good fruit, charity and the pure love of Christ look like.  But one prophet who keeps harping on it over and over again, testifies this is God's plan and a demonstration of God's true love for His children.  I hope you all make sure you  impress that picture on any new convert or investigator you come in contact with.

I also hope none of you have a queer baby in your family.  You might just find your heart and faith broken.  Maybe you can share your testimony with us all about how this what God wants for His queer children.  Go ahead, I challenge you to testify that you know God wants what's going on with His queer children to happen under His plan of happiness.  Give me the details on what the Spirit has revealed to you a queer child should do.  I can share it with thousands that I am in contact with.  They would love to hear what each of you have had revealed to you on what they should do to find happiness and joy in life.

There is definitely no easy answer. There is a clear one, but it isn’t easy. Many can conceptualize the difficulty, but none but those that experience it. Am really know.

I can only share my experience. I’m your vanilla Utah raised Peter priesthood. One of my siblings is a satanist, another is gay, and another is trans. I imagine there was some anxiety and mental battles as they came to terms with their thoughts, but everything got better when they came out. Today, me and my three siblings have an incredible relationship. We all talk together at least once  a week. I also share with them my kids. They love my kids and my kids love them.

What happened with my family that isn’t happening with others? I don’t know. But the gospel was taught in my home and yet all my siblings felt safe leaving the church.

[Navidad]

31 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

What does “HM” mean? 

You beat me to it. I was just going to ask the same thing. I figured it was some super secret LDS code. But I feel much better if you don't know either!

[Calm]

5 minutes ago, Buckeye said:

That’s never stopped them before.

How could you tell this (sincere question)?  There are a number of things we don’t have clarity on and a few of these are controversial even. Perhaps the reason in some of these cases is it would be dismissed.

[Buckeye]

4 minutes ago, Fether said:

There is definitely no easy answer. There is a clear one, but it isn’t easy. Many can conceptualize the difficulty, but none but those that experience it. Am really know.

I can only share my experience. I’m your vanilla Utah raised Peter priesthood. One of my siblings is a satanist, another is gay, and another is trans. I imagine there was some anxiety and mental battles as they came to terms with their thoughts, but everything got better when they came out. Today, me and my three siblings have an incredible relationship. We all talk together at least once  a week. I also share with them my kids. They love my kids and my kids love them.

What happened with my family that isn’t happening with others? I don’t know. But the gospel was taught in my home and yet all my siblings felt safe leaving the church.

If you remain in close contact and love each other’s families, it sounds like you all are continuing to practice the gospel regardless of church affiliation. That’s really impressive. 

[Navidad]

14 minutes ago, Buckeye said:

I was paraphrasing a famous statement by Elder McConkie who was explaining how a revelation extending priesthood ordination to all men could have come when he himself had previously taught that men of African descent would not receive ordination in this life. 

And all I can say to that is that it is time disbelieving people repented and got in line and believed in a living, modern prophet. Forget everything that I have said, or what President Brigham Young or President George Q. Cannon or whomsoever has said in days past that is contrary to the present revelation. We spoke with a limited understanding and without the light and knowledge that now has come into the world.

OK Thanks. So does what Elder McConkie said apply as well to NT apostles and OT prophets? The spoke in "days past" did they not? Does the LDS church believe that NT apostles were also prophets in the same sense as OT prophets and President Nelson is a prophet? Thanks again.

[Buckeye]

11 minutes ago, Calm said:

How could you tell this (sincere question)?  There are a number of things we don’t have clarity on and a few of these are controversial even. Perhaps the reason in some of these cases is it would be dismissed.

Because there’s been plenty of clarity that was taught before that no longer is. ‘Mothers come home’ is a prime example.
 

The steady pace of changes in the church since 1995 has been to open new doors to women presiding, providing, and protecting, as well as supporting brethren in their primary roles as nurturers. Of course I support these changes. It’s just unnecessarily frustrating to continue to trumpet a dogma that we are actively removing in practice. 
 

edit to add a pertinent example of a gender difference being removed by the church’s educational arm just this weekend. 

https://www.deseret.com/utah/2022/4/2/22991301/first-woman-student-military-chaplain-brigham-young-university-faith-religion-lds-church-mission

Edited April 4, 2022 by Buckeye

[Buckeye]

1 minute ago, Navidad said:

OK Thanks. So does what Elder McConkie said apply as well to NT apostles and OT prophets? The spoke in "days past" did they not? Does the LDS church believe that NT apostles were also prophets in the same sense as OT prophets and President Nelson is a prophet? Thanks again.

Yes. A prime example would be Peters revelation to take the gospel to the gentiles. 

[Fether]

Just now, Buckeye said:

If you remain in close contact and love each other’s families, it sounds like you all are continuing to practice the gospel regardless of church affiliation. That’s really impressive. 

It’s really been great. I love them so much and we have been able to foster a really strong relationship. We are also all comfortable and respectful enough with our own beliefs that we talk about it on occasion.

I think my mom did a great job of teaching the whole “a birder line is not a battle line” concept. She doesn’t gossip and she doesn’t judge. She just loves her life authentically. She taught that to us as well. Someone choosing not to believe just wasn’t something worth freaking out over.

My wife’s family, however, was a bit different. Her dad went full dictator mode and forced everyone to do church stuff. They all rebelled. One has an unhealthy relationship with the church, and another just plain hates it.

If I were to pinpoint it, I would say that parents that understand the gospel, have self confidence, self respect, and teach that to their kids are better equipped to help a child who is LGBTQ than a parent who is just living the letter of the law and demanding their kids to do the same purely because of tradition.

 

[Navidad]

38 minutes ago, Peacefully said:

I agree with you on this and I’m so tired of trying to twist my mind to understand why our gay brothers and sisters who choose to follow their hearts and create a family with someone of the same sex cannot be accepted into the fold. If it is a mistake, which I don’t believe it is, then God can sort it out later. There will be plenty of sorting of heterosexual relationships that will need to be done in the hereafter, so they will be in good company. 

Kim, how do you stay in with all the stories you listen to from the LGBTQ community? 

I always have so many questions from threads like this one. Do the LDS teach/believe that post-mortal humans will have human bodies (soma) in the spirit world? Or will they/we be spirits only? If we are bodies, will we still have intact souls (mind, will, and emotions)? Will we speak in a new language to each other that all humans will understand? If we are indeed spirits in the spirit world at what time and place will we obtain a new body? Will those ultimate telestial and terrestrial folks achieve the same body? Will we be sexual beings as spirits, or only once we have a body, if indeed we are re-bodified at some point? I think I just made up a new word! Won't the progeny of those who are exalted be spirits until they go on to their own terra firma and become mortal? So will embodied folks who died on earth have progeny who are pure spirit?  I guess I am not sure how the spirit/soul/body things works in the LDS view of eternity.

Edited April 4, 2022 by Navidad

[Navidad]

20 minutes ago, Buckeye said:

Yes. A prime example would be Peters revelation to take the gospel to the gentiles. 

Ok. Thanks that helps. I still have another question, but I better not ask it. I will irritate folks who don't like too many questions from non-investigators (in the traditional sense). Thanks. Take care. I am turning off my computer and going to bed!

[Peacefully]

7 minutes ago, Navidad said:

I always have so many questions from threads like this one. Do the LDS teach/believe that post-mortal humans will have human bodies (soma) in the spirit world? Or will they/we be spirits only? If we are bodies, will we still have intact souls (mind, will, and emotions)? Will we speak in a new language to each other that all humans will understand? If we are indeed spirits in the spirit world at what time and place will we obtain a new body? Will those ultimate telestial and terrestrial folks achieve the same body? Will we be sexual beings as spirits, or only once we have a body, if indeed we are re-bodified at some point? I think I just made up a new word!

Lots of good questions! I don’t want to steer you wrong so I found some good references for you:) 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/spirit-world 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/new-testament-study-guide-for-home-study-seminary-students/introduction-to-1-corinthians/unit-23-day-2-1-corinthians-15-30-16-24

 

[OGHoosier]

3 hours ago, kimpearson said:

Mean while those gay, lesbian, bi, intersex, transgender, non binary, asexual, gender fluid babies keep being born in members homes.  They grow up and realize that if they acknowledge the very core of their soul and seek to find the happiness and joy promised to their cisgender, heterosexual brothers and sister in this life, they will be cast out of the Church.  As President Oaks said in his talk quite clearly, the primary  purpose of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints to help it members achieve the celestial kingdom.  Everyone else can go somewhere else or have different beliefs.  The Church will love you but you don't fit in the Church's work.  The feelings inside these children are the opposition and Satan is behind all opposition.  Then those kids start to have mental problems, feel no self worth, contemplate suicide (because as so many of you have stated, you will get fixed in the next life) if they try to stay in the Church or they realized that under Church doctrine they are an abomination because what their soul tells them to do.  Most then leave.  The few that stay are pretty screwed up for the most part.  It's a beautiful picture that any faithful member of the Church would feel and grow in their love of Father in Heaven.  Just look at all the lives of our queer brothers and sisters and the gospel.  It's a picture that builds testimonies and increases love per most of the posts above, at least that is the implication because that is what the gospel is supposed to do.

I stand amazed and awed at the support you all express for doctrine and teachings that destroy almost every life it applies too.  I guess I am a little confused on what good fruit, charity and the pure love of Christ look like.  But one prophet who keeps harping on it over and over again, testifies this is God's plan and a demonstration of God's true love for His children.  I hope you all make sure you  impress that picture on any new convert or investigator you come in contact with.

I also hope none of you have a queer baby in your family.  You might just find your heart and faith broken.  Maybe you can share your testimony with us all about how this what God wants for His queer children.  Go ahead, I challenge you to testify that you know God wants what's going on with His queer children to happen under His plan of happiness.  Give me the details on what the Spirit has revealed to you a queer child should do.  I can share it with thousands that I am in contact with.  They would love to hear what each of you have had revealed to you on what they should do to find happiness and joy in life.

Have you taken a look over at Public Square Magazine? They often publish interesting and compelling pieces on this from an orthodox perspective. 

[let’s roll]

9 hours ago, jerryp48 said:

Now can we move on to discussing if “boundary lines can exist without becoming battle lines?”  How can we move forward with love and tolerance for one another?  This is my sincere desire.

By acting with love and tolerance.  I think President Oaks’ talk, examined in its entirety, does that.

[Scott Lloyd]

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Pres Oaks, "Stop it". Pres Uchtdorf's comments in the past need to be said again. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/friend/2013/06/stop-it?lang=eng

It's not necessary to bring this up once again, Oaks.  Do it in private if needs be, or leave it alone, LGBTQ crowd knows what the leaders think. 

“Shut up,” she explained. 

[Meadowchik]

Bottom line is that in this regard, he is deeply mistaken. 

This is an example of the hazard of claiming spokesmanship for God.  Personally, I regret the time and resources I spent holding this position up as truth, because I believed these men spoke for God. 

And I know that right now there are parents, other family and friends being torn in different directions, not just because of who they love, but because they know that love is good but also have believed the church was right. Pain will inevitably follow.

 

[teddyaware]

1 hour ago, Meadowchik said:

Bottom line is that in this regard, he is deeply mistaken. 

This is an example of the hazard of claiming spokesmanship for God.  Personally, I regret the time and resources I spent holding this position up as truth, because I believed these men spoke for God. 

And I know that right now there are parents, other family and friends being torn in different directions, not just because of who they love, but because they know that love is good but also have believed the church was right. Pain will inevitably follow.

 

Why should anyone be “torn in different directions” of anguish when, in the very same address, President Oaks testified that those in the terrestrial and telestial kingdoms of glory will enjoy states of sublime happiness that are far beyond anything the human mind can even begin to comprehend? In other words, gay members of the Church will receive a degree of salvation in the resurrection that’s perfectly designed to maximize their eternal peace happiness — so why all the despair?

Life in the highest degree of glory in the celestial kingdom is reserved for sealed husbands and wives who desire to continue to have children in eternity;  and since, by very nature, it’s impossible for two men or two women to have children, what would be the reason for entering into a celestial marriage when the whole point of such a marriage is eternal increase? And further, if two men or two women want to spend eternity cohabitating with each other without the possibility of having offspring, it seems reasonable that they would be able to do so without a sealing ordinance being required.

In Elder Oaks’ presentation of life in eternity everyone ends up exactly where they want to be, so why all the heartbreak and despair when everything is going to end up being perfectly right, fair and just, with peace and great abiding happiness enjoyed by all save the sons of perdition. And since the only way a celestial same sex marriage could rendered properly functional would be if one member of the couple volunteered to be transformed into either a man or woman (so that they could have children) such a transformation would deprive the same sex couple of the choice to abide with each other forever.

So the question is this: what could be more loving and fair than to not require same sex attracted individuals to be eternally bound to a member of the opposite sex? This means the hurt feelings of which you speak are only being caused because many members fail to appreciate just how loving, fair and accommodating God’s great plan of salvation really is! The people of whom you speak are, in a manner of speaking, “perishing for lack knowledge” and would rather vent in anguish than to stop to appreciate just how wonderfully fair God’s plan of happiness really is. In the great plan of salvation that Elder Oaks outlined, the opportunities for the salvation of same sex attracted people are maximized. Therefore it’s only a failure to comprehend the knowledge and wisdom of God that’s causing all the angst.

But as sure as the sun will rise in the East tomorrow morning, there will be many who will continue to be unnecessarily horrified and outraged because they rather enjoy beating down on the Church of Jesus Christ while basking in the “glory” their own ignorance-inspired self righteousness.

Edited April 4, 2022 by teddyaware

[Orthodox Christian]

12 hours ago, Buckeye said:

My sense is that President Oaks has never been a proponent of the doctrine/policy dichotomy. So I don’t see that part of his address as anything groundbreaking, but rather a reemphasis that the church’s teaching of marriage being only make-female is not going to change under his watch. At least for me, I have always thought the acceptance of SSM will come after his service ends, so again nothing new there. 
 

What may be new is the context of framing the marriage discussion with the three degrees of glory. This may be a harbinger of a push by the church to teach that those in SSMs have a place in Gods kingdoms, just not the highest degree. I’m not sure how that gets implemented in practice, but I certainly support anything that would help to provide a place in the church for gay and lesbian members who choose to form families. Maybe something like allowing them to pray and serve in limited capacities while not being permitted in the temple. I’m not predicting anything, just hoping for some movement to make more space in our congregations for these wonderful saints. 
 

Another thing that would be extremely helpful - but I’m not holding by breath - is a clear explanation of the eternal differences between genders. Is it just pregnancy and nursing? The POTF sets different expectations as to nurturing, presiding, providing and protecting, but those differences have been eroding under church policy changes since 1995 (a development I welcome). There will simply be no unity among the saints in understanding what the the eternal differences are until church leadership provides details. Every man and woman will apply their own belief and the doctrine will remain largely worthless apart from being the basis to reject SSM. 

If your  Church ever accepts ssm, wouldn't there need to be a direct revelation from God to your incumbent prophet? 

[Scott Lloyd]

6 minutes ago, Orthodox Christian said:

If your  Church ever accepts ssm, wouldn't there need to be a direct revelation from God to your incumbent prophet? 

Moot question. 
 

Like asking, “If your church ever denied the divinity of Christ would there have to be a revelation?”

Edited April 4, 2022 by Scott Lloyd

[sunstoned]

56 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Moot question. 
 

Like asking, “If your church ever denied the divinity of Christ would there have to be a revelation?”

You didn't really mean this did you?  Placing the acceptance of SSM at the same level of denying Christ can be seen as offensive.  Given the Church's history of having to walk back major beliefs, there are much better examples that can be used.  Like giving up polygamy or the priesthood exclusion. 

[Meadowchik]

2 hours ago, teddyaware said:

Why should anyone be “torn in different directions” of anguish when, in the very same address, President Oaks testified that those in the terrestrial and telestial kingdoms of glory will enjoy states of sublime happiness that are far beyond anything the human mind can even begin to comprehend? In other words, gay members of the Church will receive a degree of salvation in the resurrection that’s perfectly designed to maximize their eternal peace happiness — so why all the despair?

Life in the highest degree of glory in the celestial kingdom is reserved for sealed husbands and wives who desire to continue to have children in eternity;  and since, by very nature, it’s impossible for two men or two women to have children, what would be the reason for entering into a celestial marriage when the whole point of such a marriage is eternal increase? And further, if two men or two women want to spend eternity cohabitating with each other without the possibility of having offspring, it seems reasonable that they would be able to do so without a sealing ordinance being required.

In Elder Oaks’ presentation of life in eternity everyone ends up exactly where they want to be, so why all the heartbreak and despair when everything is going to end up being perfectly right, fair and just, with peace and great abiding happiness enjoyed by all save the sons of perdition. And since the only way a celestial same sex marriage could rendered properly functional would be if one member of the couple volunteered to be transformed into either a man or woman (so that they could have children) such a transformation would deprive the same sex couple of the choice to abide with each other forever.

So the question is this: what could be more loving and fair than to not require same sex attracted individuals to be eternally bound to a member of the opposite sex? This means the hurt feelings of which you speak are only being caused because many members fail to appreciate just how loving, fair and accommodating God’s great plan of salvation really is! The people of whom you speak are, in a manner of speaking, “perishing for lack knowledge” and would rather vent in anguish than to stop to appreciate just how wonderfully fair God’s plan of happiness really is. In the great plan of salvation that Elder Oaks outlined, the opportunities for the salvation of same sex attracted people are maximized. Therefore it’s only a failure to comprehend the knowledge and wisdom of God that’s causing all the angst.

But as sure as the sun will rise in the East tomorrow morning, there will be many who will continue to be unnecessarily horrified and outraged because they rather enjoy beating down on the Church of Jesus Christ while basking in the “glory” their own ignorance-inspired self righteousness.

There's nothing less-than in same-sex relationships, but framing them as such by allocating them to lesser kingdoms is categorizing them as less-than. 

 

[Fether]

2 hours ago, teddyaware said:

so why all the despair?

It’s the concept of objective right and wrong they have a problem with. This argument, as far as it goes in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, is not about whether they will go to Hell or not (and if someone does talk of it in those terms, they are either ignorant of our teaching or just trying to make a scene). Their frustration that we are saying SSM and other LGBTQ issues are morally wrong and Morally inferior to heterosexual marriage. It’s the idea that the God they believe in disagrees with what they think to be moral.

[Scott Lloyd]

14 hours ago, bluebell said:

Do we have a quote yet on what was actually said?

Bluebell, I found a YouTube video of President Oaks’s talk. I’ve spent the past hour or so (should have done it on a desktop computer; would have been much faster than on my phone) transcribing the portion pertaining to the family proclamation and have endeavored to give the context in which he taught the “unchangeable doctrines” on which the proclamation is based. 
 

I’ll try to get you a link to the YouTube video, but for now, here’s the transcription I made: 

Fundamental to us is God’s revelation that exaltation can only be attained through faithfulness to the covenants of an eternal marriage between a man and a woman. That divine doctrine is why we teach that gender is an essential characteristic of individual pre-mortal, mortal and eternal identity and purpose. That is also why the Lord has required His restored Church to oppose social and legal pressures to retreat from His doctrine of marriage between a man and a woman, to oppose changes that homogenize the differences between men and women or to confuse or alter gender. 

The Restored Church’s positions on these fundamentals frequently provoke opposition. We understand that. Our Heavenly Father’s plan allows for opposition in all things, and Satan’s most strenuous opposition is directed at whatever is important to that plan. 

Consequently he seeks to oppose progress toward exaltation by distorting marriage, discouraging childbearing or confusing gender. However, we know that in the long run, the divine purpose of our loving Heavenly Father will not be changed. Personal circumstances may change, and God’s plan assures that in the long run, the faithful who keep their covenants will have the opportunity to qualify for every promised blessing. 

A uniquely valuable teaching to help us prepare for eternal life, the greatest of all the gifts of God, is the 1995 proclamation on the family. Its declarations are, of course, different from some current laws, practices and advocacy, such as cohabitation and same-sex marriage. Those who do not fully understand the Father’s loving plan for His children may consider this family proclamation no more than a changeable statement of policy. In contrast, we affirm that the family proclamation, founded upon unchangeable doctrine, defines the kind of family relationships where the most important part of our eternal development can occur. 

That is the context for the unique doctrine and policies of the restored Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. 
 

 

 

Edited April 4, 2022 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, sunstoned said:

You didn't really mean this did you?  Placing the acceptance of SSM at the same level of denying Christ can be seen as offensive.  Given the Church's history of having to walk back major beliefs, there are much better examples that can be used.  Like giving up polygamy or the priesthood exclusion. 

What I sought to convey with this comparison is that the restored Church’s doctrine pertaining to marriage being between a man and a woman is so integral to the doctrinal structure of the Church that to renounce it would amount to  such a drastic alteration as to destroy the Church itself. It would no longer be the Church of Jesus Christ. For an explanation of the integral part this doctrine plays, please see the post I just addressed to Bluebell, wherein I gave my transcription of a portion of President Oaks’s talk. 
 

I wanted to convey to the inquiring “Orthodox Christian” that a revelation embracing same-sex marriage is altogether outside the realm of possibility. Such a change would be far more likely — infinitely more likely — if we were not a Church governed by Jesus Christ through revelation as we profess, but a church run strictly by fallible, mortal men and women. 

Edited April 4, 2022 by Scott Lloyd

[Orthodox Christian]

2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Moot question. 
 

Like asking, “If your church ever denied the divinity of Christ would there have to be a revelation?”

Sorry, I don't see the correlation between denying Christ and a revelation about ssm. I mean, if your prophet has in some special way, the ear of God, wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that he could pronounce one way or the other on this issue?

 

[Orthodox Christian]

18 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

What I sought to convey with this comparison is that the restored Church’s doctrine pertaining to marriage being between a man and a woman is so integral to the doctrinal structure of the Church that to renounce it would amount to  such a drastic alteration as to destroy the Church itself. It would no longer be the Church of Jesus Christ. For an explanation of the integral part this doctrine plays, please see the post I just addressed to Bluebell, wherein I gave my transcription of a portion of President Oaks’s talk. 
 

I wanted to convey to the inquiring “Orthodox Christian” that a revelation embracing same-sex marriage is altogether outside the realm of possibility. Such a change would be far more likely — infinitely more likely — if we were not a Church governed by Jesus Christ through revelation as we profess, but a church run strictly by fallible, mortal men and women. 

Then how can some on this forum believe that there might be a change on e the present incumbent is no longer there. 

I am with you on the fact that God has already spoken about sexual relations, and He does not change and cannot deny himself, so there is no disagreement between us.