Family proclamation founded on irrevocable doctrine: President Oaks

[Buckeye]

53 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Do we have a quote yet on what was actually said?

The DN has actual quotes. 

https://www.deseret.com/faith/2022/4/3/23005059/april-2022-general-conference-sunday-afternoon-ends-with-temple-announcements

[Scott Lloyd]

4 hours ago, Buckeye said:

Frankly, I’m much more interested in teachings from Elders Gong and Christofferson  and the subject.

Elder Christofferson’s teachings and public statements have been consistent with President Oaks’s. I’ve not heard Elder Gong address the matter, but I have no doubt his would be as well. 

Edited April 4, 2022 by Scott Lloyd

[rongo]

3 minutes ago, Buckeye said:

He has authority to teach and a responsibility to teach what he believes is true. I have no doubt he sincerely believes he is teaching truth. But he has no authority to decide what us actually true.  Truth exists outside of even God.  And he has no power to bind future leaders, only to persuade.  Frankly, I’m much more interested in teachings from Elders Gong and Christofferson  and the subject.  Their families are directly invested in finding a place for LGBT saints.

I think it has a "burning the ships on the shore" effect, down the road. If major changes to doctrine behind the Law of Chastity is attempted decades down the road, it will have a "death by a hundred cuts" effect. Declaring the priesthood ban doctrine in the 40s is one thing, but if homosexuality is similarly attempted to be "de-criminalized" on "policy, not doctrine" grounds, it erodes away at insistence of "unchangeable doctrine" claims. If literally anything can be changed, given enough time or social currents, then assurances that some things cannot be changed are not confidence-inspiring. 

President Oaks came up with the "serve with priesthood authority, but don't hold priesthood office" explanation that (I think) effectively paints the women/priesthood issue into a corner. I think this was a shot across the bow that can have an impact even when he's gone. Future administrations hack away at things like this at their own peril, and it has to be on their minds when thinking about 180 reversal-type changes. 

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

He just said it in Sunday PM session. He affirmed the proclamation is not just “changeable policy.”

I think this needs to be re-emphasized from time to time. I welcome President Oaks’s affirmation. 

Agreed! 

But how can we have eternal truth in a time where it is generally seen as a fantasy, a misnomer, or a childish and outmoded way of seeing the world?  How can the Proclamation be seen by worldly people as even remotely valuable?

Because pragmatically the nuclear family works and always has- see it as "evolution" or call it "the eternal gospel", or " Covenant Path", it has been proven to be a moral necessity for the construction of a peaceful society, for reproduction of self-reliant children raised with the model of seeing all humanity as one family.  It includes the necessity of both halves of humanity working together to truly "know" one another to learn Christlike behavior toward each other, and others who do not fit that model.  It presumes diversity in that way, for both males and females with love for all

Eventually all societies that vary from the model do not succeed.

It exemplifies "what works best" for all humanity, so it works on both a secular and spiritual plane, and thus can be called "eternal truth"

Edited April 3, 2022 by mfbukowski

[Scott Lloyd]

6 minutes ago, Buckeye said:

The DN has actual quotes. 

https://www.deseret.com/faith/2022/4/3/23005059/april-2022-general-conference-sunday-afternoon-ends-with-temple-announcements

Very limited, and it doesn’t include what I’ve highlighted. 
 

The Church News will have a fuller summary (if they still do things the way they did when I was there), but it’s probably best just to wait for the full transcript. 

[Ragerunner]

36 minutes ago, Fether said:

 

To be clear, this was directed to everyone. Hetero- and homosexual members will all find  partners in the afterlife if they did not find it in this life. This, of course, comes with the assumption that the person lives in accordance to the gospel.

Thise who don’t live in accordance to the eternal truth of the gospel will find themselves happily living in a lower kingdom (as retaught by Pres Oaks today)

I think some clarity on this would be helpful.

This then would mean that they will not have SSA in the next life. It would also mean that it’s just part of their test in this life, etc. The church has never provide this type of clarity.

The church’s official position is “The church does not take a position on the cause of same-sex attraction.” Which means we don’t know and for many members with SSA  that makes their place in the plan of salvation unclear. It also creates a lack of how to best approach this experience.
 

Edited April 3, 2022 by Ragerunner

[Scott Lloyd]

11 minutes ago, Ragerunner said:

I think some clarity on this would be helpful.

This then would mean that they will not have SSA in the next life. It would also mean that it’s just part of their test in this life, etc. The church has never provide this type of clarity.

The church’s official position is “The church does not take a position on the cause of same-sex attraction.” Which means we don’t know and for many members with SSA  that makes their place in the plan of salvation unclear. It also creates a lack of how to best approach this experience.
 

I’ve seen Church leaders express that homosexual attraction will not persist in the hereafter. When they’ve done so, it has not been well received among some of their hearers, and thus, such “clarity” might not have the effect you anticipate that it would. So I would not blame them if, in the interest of not stirring up enmity, they generally refrained from expressing such teaching. 

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I’ve seen Church leaders express that homosexual attraction will not persist in the hereafter. When they’ve done so, it has not been well received among some of their hearers, and thus, such “clarity” might not have the effect you anticipate that it would. So I would not blame them if, in the interest of not stirring up enmity, they generally refrained from expressing such teaching. 

I think you have a point.

Any clarity that came that didn't agree with someone's personal beliefs (whether pro-SSM or not), would likely be dismissed.  Maybe that's exactly why clarity isn't given. 

The only thing that can truly resolve the issue is personal revelation from God.  And unfortunately, because of our own biases sometimes getting in the way, that is not usually all that simple to come by either.

Edited April 4, 2022 by bluebell

[Ragerunner]

6 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I’ve seen Church leaders express that homosexual attraction will not persist in the hereafter. When they’ve done so, it has not been well received among some of their hearers, and thus, such “clarity” might not have the effect you anticipate that it would. So I would not blame them if, in the interest of not stirring up enmity, they generally refrained from expressing such teaching. 

Scott,

Could you provide a few links with those statements? I am genuinely interested.

I know the church had some leaders that over the last few decades have hinted at different ideas including, it’s how you were raised, lack of father connection, etc. 

[Stormin' Mormon]

2 hours ago, rongo said:

As well they should (feel God's love for them and that He knows them). They are HIs children as much as anyone is.

I think that the answer (much to the chagrin of gay advocates) is that homosexuality will be gone in the resurrection --- that it is purely an element for some in mortality. I know that many gay people don't believe this (they feel like this is immutable a part of who they are as anything), and this will be a "Will you also go away?" issue for some. 

If sexual orientation is not a choice, but an unchosen physical reaction, I don't see how it could be anything other than an element of the physical world. Outside of mortality, there will be neither gay nor straight; we will have only the sexual and spiritual attractions to those we choose to have them for, to act and not be acted upon.

Are there profound identities wrapped up in this temporary mortal condition? Yes. Can it be  daunting to contemplate life after death without that identity? Also yes. Am I saying God will make you straight in the resurrection? Absolutley not. 

Analogizing SSM is a tricky business, and usually leads to misunderstandings and hurt. But I'm gonna risk it anyways and compare SSM to my ADHD. Much of who I am in mortality is wrapped up in the various strengths and weaknesses inherent in ADHD. It scares me to contemplate an eternity without it. Will I still be me? 

I don't know the answer. But I have faith in my Father and His plan for me. What He envisions for me will bring me far greater joy than any plan I could conceive for myself.

Edited April 4, 2022 by Stormin' Mormon

[Fether]

2 hours ago, Ragerunner said:

I think some clarity on this would be helpful.

This then would mean that they will not have SSA in the next life. It would also mean that it’s just part of their test in this life, etc. The church has never provide this type of clarity.

The church’s official position is “The church does not take a position on the cause of same-sex attraction.” Which means we don’t know and for many members with SSA  that makes their place in the plan of salvation unclear. It also creates a lack of how to best approach this experience.
 

“Sexual relations between a man and woman who are not married, or between people of the same sex, violate one of our Father in Heaven’s most important laws and get in the way of our eternal progress.” (https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/same-sex-attraction?lang=eng)

What is the confusion? Why would there be SSA in the next life?

Edited April 4, 2022 by Fether

[Avatar4321]

5 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

He just said it in Sunday PM session. He affirmed the proclamation is not just “changeable policy.”

I think this needs to be re-emphasized from time to time. I welcome President Oaks’s affirmation. 

I think it’s a little messed up that any members need to have it reemphasized.

how much do we need to teach the same doctrine before we actually accept it and learn it? Imagine what we could do if we were all unified on the restored doctrine

[Avatar4321]

4 hours ago, jerryp48 said:

Now can we move on to discussing if “boundary lines can exist without becoming battle lines?”  How can we move forward with love and tolerance for one another?  This is my sincere desire.

It’s mine as well, but will the enemies of the Church let that happen? And how can we heed them not if they do decide to fight?

[Duncan]

30 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

I think it’s a little messed up that any members need to have it reemphasized.

how much do we need to teach the same doctrine before we actually accept it and learn it? Imagine what we could do if we were all unified on the restored doctrine

read comments on youtube, FB, instagram and you'll see why bullying LGBTQ members (who's left) and people-from members of the church needs to stop

[Duncan]

30 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

It’s mine as well, but will the enemies of the Church let that happen? And how can we heed them not if they do decide to fight?

enemies exist within the church too-if Satan loves to stir up homophobia

[Fether]

36 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

I think it’s a little messed up that any members need to have it reemphasized.

how much do we need to teach the same doctrine before we actually accept it and learn it? Imagine what we could do if we were all unified on the restored doctrine

Do you know how often I have a conversation with someone that is under the impression that young men no longer need to serve missions like they did in the past? It was nice to hear it said again so I know longer have to have that conversation.

There is a strong sense that revelation expires and if you don’t hear something explicitly said every 5 years from the mouth of the Prophet, we don’t need to follow it. It’s completely ridiculous

Edited April 4, 2022 by Fether

[Avatar4321]

1 minute ago, Fether said:

Do you know how often I have a conversation with someone that is under the impression that young men no longer need to serve missions like they did in the past? It was nice to hear it said again so I know longer have to have that conversation.

There is a strong sense that revelation expires and if you don’t hear something explicitly said every 5 years from the mouth of the Prophet, we don’t need to follow it. It’s completely ridiculous

I agree. Just like Elder Renlunds correction on HM during the women’s session. It shouldn’t have had to be said but I wasn’t surprised when it came.

just have to wonder how many times do they have to repeat themselves before we believe them 

[kimpearson]

Mean while those gay, lesbian, bi, intersex, transgender, non binary, asexual, gender fluid babies keep being born in members homes.  They grow up and realize that if they acknowledge the very core of their soul and seek to find the happiness and joy promised to their cisgender, heterosexual brothers and sister in this life, they will be cast out of the Church.  As President Oaks said in his talk quite clearly, the primary  purpose of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints to help it members achieve the celestial kingdom.  Everyone else can go somewhere else or have different beliefs.  The Church will love you but you don't fit in the Church's work.  The feelings inside these children are the opposition and Satan is behind all opposition.  Then those kids start to have mental problems, feel no self worth, contemplate suicide (because as so many of you have stated, you will get fixed in the next life) if they try to stay in the Church or they realized that under Church doctrine they are an abomination because what their soul tells them to do.  Most then leave.  The few that stay are pretty screwed up for the most part.  It's a beautiful picture that any faithful member of the Church would feel and grow in their love of Father in Heaven.  Just look at all the lives of our queer brothers and sisters and the gospel.  It's a picture that builds testimonies and increases love per most of the posts above, at least that is the implication because that is what the gospel is supposed to do.

I stand amazed and awed at the support you all express for doctrine and teachings that destroy almost every life it applies too.  I guess I am a little confused on what good fruit, charity and the pure love of Christ look like.  But one prophet who keeps harping on it over and over again, testifies this is God's plan and a demonstration of God's true love for His children.  I hope you all make sure you  impress that picture on any new convert or investigator you come in contact with.

I also hope none of you have a queer baby in your family.  You might just find your heart and faith broken.  Maybe you can share your testimony with us all about how this what God wants for His queer children.  Go ahead, I challenge you to testify that you know God wants what's going on with His queer children to happen under His plan of happiness.  Give me the details on what the Spirit has revealed to you a queer child should do.  I can share it with thousands that I am in contact with.  They would love to hear what each of you have had revealed to you on what they should do to find happiness and joy in life.

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, Avatar4321 said:

I agree. Just like Elder Renlunds correction on HM during the women’s session. It shouldn’t have had to be said but I wasn’t surprised when it came.

just have to wonder how many times do they have to repeat themselves before we believe them 

OK, I viewed his talk, and I pride myself on my ability to decipher from context arcane initialisms, but this time you’ve stumped me. What does “HM” mean? 
 

Added later: Oh, Heavenly Mother? I agree there needed to be some brake tapping here. Too many folks have gone loping off into unrevealed territory for too long on this subject. 

Edited April 4, 2022 by Scott Lloyd

[Navidad]

4 hours ago, Buckeye said:

lesser light

Could you please define "lesser light." How did former apostles, prophets, seers, and revelators have lesser light? I am simply not sure what that means. Did NT apostles have "lesser light" than modern apostles? Thanks.

[Tacenda]

11 minutes ago, kimpearson said:

Mean while those gay, lesbian, bi, intersex, transgender, non binary, asexual, gender fluid babies keep being born in members homes.  They grow up and realize that if they acknowledge the very core of their soul and seek to find the happiness and joy promised to their cisgender, heterosexual brothers and sister in this life, they will be cast out of the Church.  As President Oaks said in his talk quite clearly, the primary  purpose of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints to help it members achieve the celestial kingdom.  Everyone else can go somewhere else or have different beliefs.  The Church will love you but you don't fit in the Church's work.  The feelings inside these children are the opposition and Satan is behind all opposition.  Then those kids start to have mental problems, feel no self worth, contemplate suicide (because as so many of you have stated, you will get fixed in the next life) if they try to stay in the Church or they realized that under Church doctrine they are an abomination because what their soul tells them to do.  Most then leave.  The few that stay are pretty screwed up for the most part.  It's a beautiful picture that any faithful member of the Church would feel and grow in their love of Father in Heaven.  Just look at all the lives of our queer brothers and sisters and the gospel.  It's a picture that builds testimonies and increases love per most of the posts above, at least that is the implication because that is what the gospel is supposed to do.

I stand amazed and awed at the support you all express for doctrine and teachings that destroy almost every life it applies too.  I guess I am a little confused on what good fruit, charity and the pure love of Christ look like.  But one prophet who keeps harping on it over and over again, testifies this is God's plan and a demonstration of God's true love for His children.  I hope you all make sure you  impress that picture on any new convert or investigator you come in contact with.

I also hope none of you have a queer baby in your family.  You might just find your heart and faith broken.  Maybe you can share your testimony with us all about how this what God wants for His queer children.  Go ahead, I challenge you to testify that you know God wants what's going on with His queer children to happen under His plan of happiness.  Give me the details on what the Spirit has revealed to you a queer child should do.  I can share it with thousands that I am in contact with.  They would love to hear what each of you have had revealed to you on what they should do to find happiness and joy in life.

Pres Oaks, "Stop it". Pres Uchtdorf's comments in the past need to be said again. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/friend/2013/06/stop-it?lang=eng

It's not necessary to bring this up once again, Oaks.  Do it in private if needs be, or leave it alone, LGBTQ crowd knows what the leaders think. 

[Buckeye]

15 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Could you please define "lesser light." How did former apostles, prophets, seers, and revelators have lesser light? I am simply not sure what that means. Did NT apostles have "lesser light" than modern apostles? Thanks.

I was paraphrasing a famous statement by Elder McConkie who was explaining how a revelation extending priesthood ordination to all men could have come when he himself had previously taught that men of African descent would not receive ordination in this life. 

And all I can say to that is that it is time disbelieving people repented and got in line and believed in a living, modern prophet. Forget everything that I have said, or what President Brigham Young or President George Q. Cannon or whomsoever has said in days past that is contrary to the present revelation. We spoke with a limited understanding and without the light and knowledge that now has come into the world.

[Peacefully]

23 minutes ago, kimpearson said:

Mean while those gay, lesbian, bi, intersex, transgender, non binary, asexual, gender fluid babies keep being born in members homes.  They grow up and realize that if they acknowledge the very core of their soul and seek to find the happiness and joy promised to their cisgender, heterosexual brothers and sister in this life, they will be cast out of the Church.  As President Oaks said in his talk quite clearly, the primary  purpose of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints to help it members achieve the celestial kingdom.  Everyone else can go somewhere else or have different beliefs.  The Church will love you but you don't fit in the Church's work.  The feelings inside these children are the opposition and Satan is behind all opposition.  Then those kids start to have mental problems, feel no self worth, contemplate suicide (because as so many of you have stated, you will get fixed in the next life) if they try to stay in the Church or they realized that under Church doctrine they are an abomination because what their soul tells them to do.  Most then leave.  The few that stay are pretty screwed up for the most part.  It's a beautiful picture that any faithful member of the Church would feel and grow in their love of Father in Heaven.  Just look at all the lives of our queer brothers and sisters and the gospel.  It's a picture that builds testimonies and increases love per most of the posts above, at least that is the implication because that is what the gospel is supposed to do.

I stand amazed and awed at the support you all express for doctrine and teachings that destroy almost every life it applies too.  I guess I am a little confused on what good fruit, charity and the pure love of Christ look like.  But one prophet who keeps harping on it over and over again, testifies this is God's plan and a demonstration of God's true love for His children.  I hope you all make sure you  impress that picture on any new convert or investigator you come in contact with.

I also hope none of you have a queer baby in your family.  You might just find your heart and faith broken.  Maybe you can share your testimony with us all about how this what God wants for His queer children.  Go ahead, I challenge you to testify that you know God wants what's going on with His queer children to happen under His plan of happiness.  Give me the details on what the Spirit has revealed to you a queer child should do.  I can share it with thousands that I am in contact with.  They would love to hear what each of you have had revealed to you on what they should do to find happiness and joy in life.

I agree with you on this and I’m so tired of trying to twist my mind to understand why our gay brothers and sisters who choose to follow their hearts and create a family with someone of the same sex cannot be accepted into the fold. If it is a mistake, which I don’t believe it is, then God can sort it out later. There will be plenty of sorting of heterosexual relationships that will need to be done in the hereafter, so they will be in good company. 

Kim, how do you stay in with all the stories you listen to from the LGBTQ community? 

[Navidad]

2 hours ago, Avatar4321 said:

It’s mine as well, but will the enemies of the Church let that happen? And how can we heed them not if they do decide to fight?

Four questions: 1. Who are the "enemies of the Church" in April 2022? 2. If they exist, how can they do you or the church any harm? 3. Should I consider you (using a generic you) my enemy because you, with some certainty believe my doctrine to be both incorrect and incomplete. Therefore you send missionaries, fund apologists and campaigns, to seek to convert me to your church? 4. If you answer to #3 is No, then let me ask you again, 1. Who are the "enemies of the Church" in April 2022? Thanks.

Edited April 4, 2022 by Navidad

[Buckeye]

3 hours ago, bluebell said:

I think you have a point.

Any clarity that came that didn't agree with someone's personal beliefs (whether pro-SSM or not), would likely be dismissed.  Maybe that's exactly why clarity isn't given. 

The only thing that can truly resolve the issue is personal revelation from God.  And unfortunately, because of our own biases sometimes getting in the way, that is not usually all that simple to come by either.

Wait, church leaders won’t provide clarity because it might offend someone or might be dismissed? That’s never stopped them before. IMO it’s because there is not unity within the 12 as to what gender differences are real and eternal. 
This isn’t just an ‘how many angels can dance on a pinhead’ exercise. Guaranteed that church lessons in the near future will involve discussion about the eternal differences in genders. Without clarity, all we’ll get is a wide range of members own views and inevitable hurt feelings.