The Other Covid Thread

[ksfisher]

10 minutes ago, Harry T. Clark said:

It doesn't discriminate between vaccinated and unvaccinated. https://www.deseret.com/coronavirus/2022/1/5/22868312/why-fully-vaccinated-people-get-omicron-variant-symptoms  (the article curiously still preaches vaccination at the same time admitting omicron is mild and that vaccination doesn't protect against it) 

From the article you cited [bold mine]:

So why is the omicron variant causing fully vaccinated people to get sick and experience symptoms? Dr. Jeffrey Jahre, an infectious disease expert from St. Luke’s University Health Network in Pennsylvania, told WNEP-TV that the vaccine doesn’t offer perfect protection.

• “What was the main purpose of the COVID vaccine, is the same way that we look at an influenza vaccine, and that is to keep one away from the most serious consequences of getting the disease. What we are speaking about there is hospitalization and obviously very severe hospitalization and in intensive care unit and also tragically, death. In that situation, the COVID vaccine has been very good at doing its job,” he said.

[Tacenda]

Do any of you know of a legit link that says how many deaths there are or injuries caused from getting the vaccine?

[pogi]

1 hour ago, Harry T. Clark said:

Isn't the distinction that the mandated vaccines actually stop the spread of the disease?  

The distinction between what?  

The purpose is not necessarily to stop the spread of disease (but it can slow it) but to prevent hospitalization and death as a workplace hazard from the disease. 

Quote

The agency has conservatively estimated that the ETS will prevent over 6,500 deaths and over 250,000 hospitalizations.

OSHA has determined that many employees in the U.S. who are not fully vaccinated against COVID-19 face grave danger from exposure to COVID-19 in the workplace. This finding of grave danger is based on the severe health consequences associated with exposure to the virus along with evidence demonstrating the transmissibility of the virus in the workplace and the prevalence of infections in employee populations. The evidence for the finding of a grave danger is in Section III.A. of the ETS preamble. An ETS is Necessary: Workers are becoming seriously ill and dying as a result of occupational exposures to COVID-19, when a simple measure, vaccination, can largely prevent those deaths and illnesses

https://www.osha.gov/sites/default/files/publications/OSHA4162.pdf

 

1 hour ago, Harry T. Clark said:

Tragically, it may be the very vaccine campaign that is causing the variants to appear.  See Dr. Geert Vanden Bosche's website for his position on how vaccinating the population during a pandemic will only cause the subject virus to mutate as we are seeing.

I don't know who Dr. Geert Vanden Bosche is, and I am not going to try to find his website and read through the whole thing to find the specific part you want me to read.  If you want to post a link, or better yet, post the relevant quote with a link, I would appreciate it.  There will always be doctors who disagree with scientific and medical consensus.  That is the case here.    Virus mutations happen at accelerated rates in areas where the virus is unmitigated in large populations.  The more viral transmission and replication, the more mutations can take place.   This is why the WHO is so rightly upset about the inequity in vaccine distribution accross the globe.  You can't defeat a global pandemic on a local scale.  Inequity in vaccination role out could potentially accelearte future mutations making it more difficult to combat Covid locally.   Look where every variant of concern came from - developing countries with low vaccination rates and large crowded populations. 

While in theory, any vaccine which does not completely eliminate viral replication (I am not aware of any vaccine which does this 100%) could potentially lead to future strains which are more resistant to vaccine pressures, the same thing happens with natural immunity too.  If natural immunity does not confer 100% protection (which it doesn't with Covid) then this also creates an environment for future viral evolution to evade natural immunity pressures.  The virus is going to mutate period, vaccine or not.  The vaccine will not accelerate mutations but it may exert evolutionary pressures to evade the vaccine over time (this happens with most vaccines - but some bugs simply mutate faster than others) - unvaccinated and unmitigated viral spread in crowded public cities will be where most mutations happen.    

Edited January 7, 2022 by pogi

[Stargazer]

Not sure if this has been posted here before, but just in case it hasn't been:

COVID vaccines may briefly change your menstrual cycle, but you should still get one

 

[Stargazer]

1 hour ago, ksfisher said:

Here's some numbers from a Salt Lake Tribune article I shared on this thread last week:

Risk ratios • In the past four weeks, unvaccinated Utahns were 18.1 times more likely to die of COVID-19 than vaccinated people, according to a Utah Department of Health analysis.

The unvaccinated also were 9.6 times more likely to be hospitalized, and 3.3 times more likely to test positive for the coronavirus.

https://www.sltrib.com/news/2021/12/30/utah-reports-highest/

Seems fairly obvious that vaccines help.

Of course they help. I'm definitely vaccinated and boosted. If they come up with another booster, I'll get that, too.

But I believe that people should be permitted to be stupid. 

[ksfisher]

1 minute ago, Stargazer said:

I believe that people should be permitted to be stupid. 

I understand what you're saying here but I'm not sure that over rides public safety.  We make plenty of laws that protect people from the actions (or inactions) of other.  And we make plenty of laws to protect people from their own actions (seat belt laws for example).  When does my right to make a choice infringe upon your right to be safe? 

Christ taught that we should love our neighbor as ourselves.  In my attempts to be a disciple of Jesus Christ this seems to answer the question, at least for me, as to whether I should be vaccinated or wear a mask.  I feel it's unfortunate that many people don't seem to see things this way and (unfortunately) governments have to step in. 

[Raingirl]

8 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Of course they help. I'm definitely vaccinated and boosted. If they come up with another booster, I'll get that, too.

But I believe that people should be permitted to be stupid. 

Not when their stupidity harms and even kills others. 

[pogi]

17 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

But I believe that people should be permitted to be stupid. 

I hear this argument a lot, but when it comes down to it, people don't really believe that without limits.  We are not an anarchy.  We mandate against stupidity all the time.  In a risk assessment, many things that we mandate are way less risky than Covid, like seat belts.  It is estimated that around 15,000 lives are saved every year from seat belts.  There are around 40,000 people killed annually from car accidents.  If there were no seat belts, that number might be 55,000.  Thank goodness we mandate against stupidity sometimes!  Covid has killed nearly 1 million people in just 2 years.  No comparison.  The vaccine is more effective at preventing death than seat belts.  So, what is the logic here with the stupidity argument?  It doesn't make sense unless you believe in an anarchy.  

[pogi]

Quote

Yet another Utah COVID record: 9,469 new cases, 19 deaths

https://www.ksl.com/article/50324248/yet-another-utah-covid-record-9469-new-cases-19-deaths

20+ deaths 2 days ago.  13 deaths yesterday (including 1 under 14 years old).  19 deaths today.  I just am not seeing this so called dip in deaths.  Hospitals remain over functional capacity.  Cases continue to sky rocket.  This is not good.  I hope that as Omicron becomes more dominant that death and hospital counts will drop as those are lagging indicators, but so far this is no good.    

Edited January 7, 2022 by pogi

[smac97]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

20+ deaths 2 days ago.  13 deaths yesterday (including 1 under 14 years old).  19 deaths today.  I just am not seeing this so called dip in deaths.  Hospitals remain over functional capacity.  Cases continue to sky rocket.  This is not good.  I hope that as Omicron becomes more dominant that death and hospital counts will drop as those are lagging indicators, but so far this is no good.    

I'm wondering if Omicron is something we must go through, rather than attempt to avoid (that is, "avoid" through draconian measures like massive lockdowns and compulsory vaccinations).

Yesterday the attendant at the gas station brought up omicron and chicken pox parties as I was paying for my purchase.  It was . . . weird.  And apparently a bad idea:

Quote

While most people have spent the last two years desperately trying to avoid COVID-19, some are now apparently contemplating doing the opposite. Their perverse logic mirrors that behind chickenpox parties, at which parents would purposely expose their kids to the virus to get the infection “out of the way” and kickstart immunity.

But as Kiss said on TikTok, “It wasn’t a good idea then, and it’s not now.”

Omicron is so contagious that many people, both vaccinated and unvaccinated, will get infected during this wave. On Jan. 3, more than a million people in the U.S. were diagnosed with COVID-19, leading some experts and members of the public to conclude that it may be impossible to hide from the virus forever. Breakthrough infections have become common, and for those who are fully vaccinated and boosted, they’re likely to be fairly mild.

But actively trying to get infected isn’t wise for anyone, experts say. It’s an unnecessary gamble for fully vaccinated people, and for those who aren’t vaccinated, it’s like playing “Russian roulette with an automatic handgun,” says Dr. Laolu Fayanju, regional medical director for Oak Street Health in Ohio.

There are several problems with this approach, says Akiko Iwasaki, an immunobiologist at the Yale University School of Medicine who studies viral immunity. First, there’s no way to predict how serious a case of COVID-19 will be. Second, vaccines and boosters already provide strong protection. And third, every infection can set off a domino effect, affecting other people in potentially devastating ways.

“The risk-to-benefit calculation here is very clear to me,” Iwasaki says. “The risk is so much higher than whatever benefit you might reap.”

So far, data suggest that people infected by the Omicron variant are less likely to be hospitalized than people infected by previous strains of COVID-19, and those who are admitted for care don’t seem to get as sick as patients in earlier waves. That seems to be because Omicron is less likely to cause severe lung damage.

But even if Omicron is on the whole milder than other variants, it will still be catastrophic for some people. On Jan. 3 alone, more than 1,400 people in the U.S. died from COVID-19 and more than 100,000 were hospitalized with the virus. Unvaccinated, elderly and medically vulnerable people are at the highest risk, but there’s no 100% guarantee for anyone. There’s also no way to know if you’re exposing yourself to the Omicron variant versus the still-circulating and more-severe Delta variant, since consumer tests do not differentiate between different strains.

So intentional exposure is a bad idea.  Got it.  I accept that. 

Two quick questions:

1. If 1 in 4 people in Utah who are going out of their way to be tested are getting a positive result, it seems reasonable to surmise that the actual percentage of those with COVID is even higher than that.  Is that so?

2. What are your thoughts on this story:

Quote

A Danish health chief has said the Covid-19 Omicron variant is bringing about the end of the pandemic, saying 'we will have our normal lives back in two months'.

Speaking to Danish TV 2, Tyra Grove Krause - the chief epidemiologist at Denmark's State Serum Institute - said a new study from the organisation found that the risk of hospitalisation from Omicron is half that seen with the Delta variant.

This, she said, has given Danish authorities hope that the Covid-19 pandemic in Denmark could be over in two months.

 

'I think we will have that in the next two months, and then I hope the infection will start to subside and we get our normal lives back,' she said on Monday.  Despite early fears that Omicron could prolong the pandemic due to its increased level of infection, Ms Krause said it actually could spell the end of the pandemic.

According to the study: 'Omicron is here to stay, and it will provide some massive spread of infection in the coming month. When it's over, we're in a better place than we were before.'

But while infection numbers in countries with the variant are soaring, the expert said that the highly infectious Omicron appears milder than the Delta variant, and therefore more people will be infected without having serious symptoms.

As a result, she said, this will provide a good level of immunity in the population.

Thanks,

-Smac

 

Edited January 7, 2022 by smac97

[Stargazer]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

I hear this argument a lot, but when it comes down to it, people don't really believe that without limits.  We are not an anarchy.  We mandate against stupidity all the time.  In a risk assessment, many things that we mandate are way less risky than Covid, like seat belts.  It is estimated that around 15,000 lives are saved every year from seat belts.  There are around 40,000 people killed annually from car accidents.  If there were no seat belts, that number might be 55,000.  Thank goodness we mandate against stupidity sometimes!  Covid has killed nearly 1 million people in just 2 years.  No comparison.  The vaccine is more effective at preventing death than seat belts.  So, what is the logic here with the stupidity argument?  It doesn't make sense unless you believe in an anarchy.  

I don't believe in anarchy, but at the same time I don't believe in mandating seat belts, either. Sure, they save lives; I won't drive without wearing them. But so would outlawing fast cars save lives. 

Let's outlaw added sugar in food, too. Start with the sugar bombs that many children eat for breakfast. That would save hundreds of thousands of lives, and cut down on the diabetes rate. Another good one would be tobacco. Make that a controlled substance, too.

 

[Harry T. Clark]

2 hours ago, ksfisher said:

From the article you cited [bold mine]:

So why is the omicron variant causing fully vaccinated people to get sick and experience symptoms? Dr. Jeffrey Jahre, an infectious disease expert from St. Luke’s University Health Network in Pennsylvania, told WNEP-TV that the vaccine doesn’t offer perfect protection.

• “What was the main purpose of the COVID vaccine, is the same way that we look at an influenza vaccine, and that is to keep one away from the most serious consequences of getting the disease. What we are speaking about there is hospitalization and obviously very severe hospitalization and in intensive care unit and also tragically, death. In that situation, the COVID vaccine has been very good at doing its job,” he said.

This doctor is saying that the vaccine is like the flu shot and the flu shot rarely is more than 45% effective.  So, why take it?  More importantly, why mandate it if after the next round of variants, the vaccine may be even less effective than it is?  If a virus mutates beyond the effectiveness of the vaccine, then why take it?  You understand that the flu vaccine is reformulated each year in an attempt to catch up to the latest mutations?  Yet, still the vaccine isn't that effective.  Perhaps the vulnerable should take it as they might get a benefit from the low percentages, but mandate it?  No, there isn't justification for that.

[Harry T. Clark]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

20+ deaths 2 days ago.  13 deaths yesterday (including 1 under 14 years old).  19 deaths today.  I just am not seeing this so called dip in deaths.  Hospitals remain over functional capacity.  Cases continue to sky rocket.  This is not good.  I hope that as Omicron becomes more dominant that death and hospital counts will drop as those are lagging indicators, but so far this is no good.    

Some questions from the sensational article you cite:

1. 19 deaths reported but 5 happened prior to December 7.  So, were the 5 added to pump up the numbers (for noble reasons of course)?

2. The hospitalizations are with covid.  How many of those tested positive after having been admitted for other reasons?  The article doesn't say and we know that this has been an issue since the beginning of the pandemic.

3. Why the meaningless emphasis on cases?  What does it matter if someone has mild symptoms?  It seems to be designed to promote fear (again, of course, for noble reasons).

[Harry T. Clark]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

I hear this argument a lot, but when it comes down to it, people don't really believe that without limits.  We are not an anarchy.  We mandate against stupidity all the time.  In a risk assessment, many things that we mandate are way less risky than Covid, like seat belts.  It is estimated that around 15,000 lives are saved every year from seat belts.  There are around 40,000 people killed annually from car accidents.  If there were no seat belts, that number might be 55,000.  Thank goodness we mandate against stupidity sometimes!  Covid has killed nearly 1 million people in just 2 years.  No comparison.  The vaccine is more effective at preventing death than seat belts.  So, what is the logic here with the stupidity argument?  It doesn't make sense unless you believe in an anarchy.  

Seatbelts have been tested over years and don't have any adverse side effects.  So, I think you need a different analogy here.

[Stargazer]

1 hour ago, Raingirl said:

Not when their stupidity harms and even kills others. 

You're vaccinated. So am I. You're going to get it anyway. So am I. Probably. Even if everyone was magically suddenly triple-vaxxed. This virus doesn't care.

If the Covid vaccines were 99% effective and prevented infection like the smallpox, polio, and MMR vaccines did, then maybe you'd have a point and maybe mandating it might be more palatable. In fact, the vaccines for those old viruses were not universally adopted by everyone, but they protected the vaccinated from the anti-vaxxed, and the anti-vaxxed were protected by the vaccinated. But this virus doesn't care. The newest variant especially doesn't care -- but it hardly kills at all. Several people I know are fully vaccinated, and still got the virus -- here in the UK where there are fewer anti-vaxxers, they probably got it from vaccinated folks.

Drunk drivers' stupidity harms and even kills others. And the only way to prevent these injuries and deaths is to outlaw privately-owned vehicles and force everyone to use public transportation exclusively. Outlawing booze isn't going to do it because alcohol comes in small, easy to hide containers. Private autos are easy to control.

[Harry T. Clark]

2 hours ago, pogi said:

The distinction between what?  

The purpose is not necessarily to stop the spread of disease (but it can slow it) but to prevent hospitalization and death as a workplace hazard from the disease. 

 

I don't know who Dr. Geert Vanden Bosche is, and I am not going to try to find his website and read through the whole thing to find the specific part you want me to read.  If you want to post a link, or better yet, post the relevant quote with a link, I would appreciate it.  There will always be doctors who disagree with scientific and medical consensus.  That is the case here.    Virus mutations happen at accelerated rates in areas where the virus is unmitigated in large populations.  The more viral transmission and replication, the more mutations can take place.   This is why the WHO is so rightly upset about the inequity in vaccine distribution accross the globe.  You can't defeat a global pandemic on a local scale.  Inequity in vaccination role out could potentially accelearte future mutations making it more difficult to combat Covid locally.   Look where every variant of concern came from - developing countries with low vaccination rates and large crowded populations. 

While in theory, any vaccine which does not completely eliminate viral replication (I am not aware of any vaccine which does this 100%) could potentially lead to future strains which are more resistant to vaccine pressures, the same thing happens with natural immunity too.  If natural immunity does not confer 100% protection (which it doesn't with Covid) then this also creates an environment for future viral evolution to evade natural immunity pressures.  The virus is going to mutate period, vaccine or not.  The vaccine will not accelerate mutations but it may exert evolutionary pressures to evade the vaccine over time (this happens with most vaccines - but some bugs simply mutate faster than others) - unvaccinated and unmitigated viral spread in crowded public cities will be where most mutations happen.    

It is one thing to mandate a vaccine that actually stops the disease (as was advertised for these at first) as opposed to mandating a flu shot like vaccine that has a poor percentage of effectiveness.

Whether or not the vaccines actually slow the disease is still up for debate.  This is a disease that affects a small percentage of the population and they were just introduced, and we are contemplating a 2nd booster already.  Perhaps they don't work that well?

I don't expect you to read what Professor Vanden Bosche says because that might poke some holes in your narrative.  I posted a link to his site if you bother to look again.  The first story talks about his appeal to the WHO to stop vaccinating in the wake of Omicron due to how a vaccine that doesn't stop transmission will only generate evolutionary pressure to mutate into variants.  Here it is again.  https://www.voiceforscienceandsolidarity.org/videos-and-interviews/second-call-to-who-please-dont-vaccinate-against-omicron

Incidentally, Dr. Vanden Bosche has an impressive career and experience level.  He is an expert in these things.  https://www.voiceforscienceandsolidarity.org/who-we-are

Obviously, experts can disagree.  However, refusal to even consider or censor their opinions if they go against the preferred narrative is borderline criminal, given the seriousness of the pandemic.

Quote

unvaccinated and unmitigated viral spread in crowded public cities will be where most mutations happen. 

Do you have any proof for this?  Or is this part of the narrative that has to be assumed?

[Stargazer]

1 hour ago, ksfisher said:

I understand what you're saying here but I'm not sure that over rides public safety.  We make plenty of laws that protect people from the actions (or inactions) of other.  And we make plenty of laws to protect people from their own actions (seat belt laws for example).  When does my right to make a choice infringe upon your right to be safe? 

As soon as you get into your car and drive down the road you are a menace to society. Does my right to safety require that you walk everywhere you go?

1 hour ago, ksfisher said:

Christ taught that we should love our neighbor as ourselves.  In my attempts to be a disciple of Jesus Christ this seems to answer the question, at least for me, as to whether I should be vaccinated or wear a mask.  I feel it's unfortunate that many people don't seem to see things this way and (unfortunately) governments have to step in. 

Christ taught that we should love our neighbor as ourselves, but to be fully certain of never hurting our neighbor, even accidentally, we have to stay in our house and never leave it. As soon as we walk out the door we are, at least in some small way, a danger to our community. When I first got my drivers license, my dad said to me, now you have your license to kill. I argued with him that it wasn't permission to kill so it couldn't be a license for it. He just rolled his eyes and said "You know what I mean". And I did -- I knew that I had to exercise my new privilege with wisdom and circumspection. One of my sons doesn't have a drivers license, even at age 45. He refuses because he doesn't want the responsibility.

And now we come to the virus. The newest variant is not killing people at anywhere the same rate as before. The vaccinations that the government wants to force everyone to get don't assure protection. Vaccinated people are getting sick with it and even catching it from vaccinated people. As it turns out, the vaccinations are at least lessening the impact, so halleluiah to that, but I still don't want to force people to get it. 

I'm convinced getting vaccinated is a great idea. I'm unconvinced that we have the moral right to force anti-vaxxers to be vaccinated. And I'm pretty sure you won't be able to convince me otherwise.

I am a libertarian. One description of this philosophy is:

"Libertarianism (from French: libertaire, "libertarian"; from Latin: libertas, "freedom") is a political philosophy that upholds liberty as a core principle. Libertarians seek to maximize autonomy and political freedom, emphasizing free association, freedom of choice, individualism and voluntary association." 

I'm very set in this philosophy. There is little use in trying to convince me that this pandemic necessitates handing more authority to the State than it already possesses. This is simply because you cannot give the State power that it will not gleefully hold onto even when it isn't necessary. The State never gives back power.

 

[pogi]

51 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

I don't believe in anarchy, but at the same time I don't believe in mandating seat belts, either. Sure, they save lives; I won't drive without wearing them. But so would outlawing fast cars save lives. 

Let's outlaw added sugar in food, too. Start with the sugar bombs that many children eat for breakfast. That would save hundreds of thousands of lives, and cut down on the diabetes rate. Another good one would be tobacco. Make that a controlled substance, too.

 

If you are not an anarchist, than you believe in outlawing stupidity on some level.  That is my main point. 

[pogi]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

I'm wondering if Omicron is something we must go through, rather than attempt to avoid.  

With how infectious it is, it is going to be very hard to avoid, but I think it is worth taking every reasonable precaution with masking/distancing/vaccinating. 

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

1. If 1 in 4 people in Utah who are going out of their way to be tested are getting a positive result, it seems reasonable to surmise that the actual percentage of those with COVID is even higher than that.  Is that so?

The best indicator is test positivity rate.  If the test positivity rate is high, than that is a good indicator that community transmission is out of control and that the percentage of those with Covid is much higher that what is being tested.   Even as positive cases sky rocket, so do test positivity rates.   We are currently at 16.79% positivity rate.  That is WAY high compared to say April when we were at 2.8%. 

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

2. What are your thoughts on this story:

Thanks,

-Smac

I am hopeful that there is some truth to it.  The concern is that Omicron is mutated too much to give good protection against other variants.  So, once Omicron runs out of fuel, there may be a period of time where we can finally take a breath...but what is next in line?  Hopefully our vaccines will give some protection against it, and hopefully natural immunity from Omicron will also give some protection.  If that is the case, there is some hope, I think. 

[pogi]

1 hour ago, Harry T. Clark said:

This doctor is saying that the vaccine is like the flu shot and the flu shot rarely is more than 45% effective.  So, why take it?  More importantly, why mandate it if after the next round of variants, the vaccine may be even less effective than it is?  If a virus mutates beyond the effectiveness of the vaccine, then why take it?  You understand that the flu vaccine is reformulated each year in an attempt to catch up to the latest mutations?  Yet, still the vaccine isn't that effective.  Perhaps the vulnerable should take it as they might get a benefit from the low percentages, but mandate it?  No, there isn't justification for that.

First, it is nothing like the flu vaccine on almost every level.   The flu vaccine is not formulated to "catch up" to the latest mutations.  It is formulated in advance of the flu season based on predictions of how scientists think the virus might mutate.  It is largely a guess.   That is not the case with Covid which can be produced MUCH quicker than the flu vaccine with MRNA technology, and can be targeted specifically to known mutations and thus provide much more accurate protection and efficacy.  

The one area that the flu vaccine and covid shots are similar is in that even if you get infected, it still reduces severity of disease.  The other area that they are alike is in the fact that everyone should get them.

Why take it?  Because efficacy is based on more that chances of getting infected.  We have to consider efficacy of reducing hospitalization and/or death.  The question is, why wouldn't you get the flu shot or the Covid shot if the known risk of the disease is greater than the known risk of the vaccine?

 

[pogi]

1 hour ago, Harry T. Clark said:

Some questions from the sensational article you cite:

1. 19 deaths reported but 5 happened prior to December 7.  So, were the 5 added to pump up the numbers (for noble reasons of course)?

2. The hospitalizations are with covid.  How many of those tested positive after having been admitted for other reasons?  The article doesn't say and we know that this has been an issue since the beginning of the pandemic.

3. Why the meaningless emphasis on cases?  What does it matter if someone has mild symptoms?  It seems to be designed to promote fear (again, of course, for noble reasons).

The emphasis is on deaths.  19 - 5 is 14 deaths in one day.  That is unfortunately the norm it seems with around 10 deaths daily on average since early September.  14 is still an unacceptable daily number for something that is almost completely preventable.  Why can't you accept that?

Hospitals are above functional capacity and is almost perfectly correlated with case counts with a slight lag.  As case counts rise, hospitalizations follow, then death.  As case counts dip, hospitalizations dip, then death.  This is the same pattern we have seen from the beginning of the pandemic.  You can't argue against it.  It is real.  Covid hospitalizations and deaths follow cases.  They are all interlinked.  To pretend like Covid is not causing hospitals to be beyond functional capacity is blind.  It is clearly following cases counts.  Undeniably so.  To suggest that people should not get the vaccine is angering and deadly.  You are playing with peoples lives based on outlandish and bogus claims from the outliers of medicine and political ploys. 

Edited January 7, 2022 by pogi

[Stargazer]

26 minutes ago, pogi said:

If you are not an anarchist, than you believe in outlawing stupidity on some level.  That is my main point. 

Well, then, I guess we could say that my level is clearly higher than yours. 

But there is a difference between outlawing wrong behavior (such as the classics: murder; theft; assault) and forcing positive behavior.

[Stargazer]

22 minutes ago, pogi said:

I am hopeful that there is some truth to it.  The concern is that Omicron is mutated too much to give good protection against other variants.  So, once Omicron runs out of fuel, there may be a period of time where we can finally take a breath...but what is next in line?  Hopefully our vaccines will give some protection against it, and hopefully natural immunity from Omicron will also give some protection.  If that is the case, there is some hope, I think. 

I heard some news item the other day (I wish I remember where I heard it, but I don't), but apparently there is some anecdotal evidence that Omicron is actually conferring on its sufferers a high degree of immunity to earlier variants, whereas the opposite was not so much the case.

If all this is true, then this thing might burn itself out soon.

[pogi]

55 minutes ago, Harry T. Clark said:

 a vaccine that doesn't stop transmission will only generate evolutionary pressure to mutate into variants. 

Isn't that exactly what I said?  Too predictable.  Did you consider my response to that fact?

1 hour ago, Harry T. Clark said:

Do you have any proof for this?  Or is this part of the narrative that has to be assumed?

Do you have any proof for Dr so and so's claims?  Nope.  Vaccines and viruses have been around long enough to know that it is BS.  

The truth is that vaccines do give evolutionary pressure for viruses to mutate and evade vaccines.  The untruth  is that it accelerates mutations, or that mutations are more likely to happen because of vaccination.  These viruses will mutate on their own.  They have to to survive.  Natural immunity will do the same thing. Period. 

The proof is in simple math.  Mutations happen at a certain rate with different viruses.  Some mutate quickly.  Some slow.  The more a virus replicates, the more mutations will be seen.  Simple as that.  The virus will replicate more and faster in crowded public cities with lots of fuel to burn through.   

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/unvaccinated-people-are-increasing-the-chances-for-more-coronavirus-variants-heres-how#How-the-virus-spreads-and-changes

The proof is also in studying were emerging variants come from. 

[pogi]

38 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

But there is a difference between outlawing wrong behavior (such as the classics: murder; theft; assault) and forcing positive behavior.

Isn't forcing positive behavior kind of the same as outlawing wrong behavior, and vise versa, on some level?  I mean, avoiding all Covid precautions is "wrong behavior".   Following Covid precautions is positive behavior. So by mandating masks and vaccines, one is simultaneously outlawing wrong behavior and forcing positive behavior.   Stealing is wrong behavior, making the decision to not steal is right behavior.  Assaulting someone is wrong behavior, controlling your emotions is right behavior.  You can spin it either way.  All laws seem to simultaneously outlaw wrong behavior and force more positive behavior.  

What is your position on removing regulations on prescription opioids, or meth, etc.?

 

Edited January 7, 2022 by pogi