pogi Posted January 5, 2022 Posted January 5, 2022 53 minutes ago, bsjkki said: I don’t understand why it’s so hard to understand. We didn’t want a panic. As soon as the President shut down the country we had no toilet paper. 🤷♀️ Why can't you just admit that he was wrong then and say that he did it with noble intentions? Instead, you try to defend every comment as if there was no deception intended. Doesn't make sense. The whole reason I brought up Trump is because another posted was irate that "lies" from Europe where they had intentionally inflated the perception of fear to help save lives. I suggested that Trump did the exact same thing but from the more damaging angle of downplaying it. What he did was noble though, so he gets a pass, but Europe is the devil! Even if we believe that Trump had noble intentions (I don't buy it, all he cares about is perceptions and reelection, etc.), he deceived the pubic and is responsible for people dying because they didn't take it seriously. He gave fuel to the conspiracy theorists, and it back fired. It was poorly played and it backfired. Americans are suffering because of it. Even still Republicans are WAY under vaccinated compared to democrats. 54 minutes ago, bsjkki said: And I guess, I like to call out your selective criticism of all the mistakes, likes, misinformation and downright ineptitude we have been subjected to since this began. There is a lot of incompetence to call out. I called out the noble lies about masks in the beginning. I never condoned it. I have called out every intentional deception that I have witnessed. I do not defend the lies and deception, like you seem to be doing, pretending like they are not lies. I agree that there is incompetence on every level. The CDC's change with isolation/quarantine guidelines is a mess. You would think that they would have learned their lesson by now... I don't excuse them in their mistakes. I am more willing ot excuse behavior from people who's intentions are to protect the American people and encourage them to take precautions. I am less forgiving of people who tell deadly lies and downplay the virus, masks, social distancing, and vaccines - especially when it is politically motivated.
pogi Posted January 5, 2022 Posted January 5, 2022 32 minutes ago, bsjkki said: Dr. Atlas. Transcribed interview. He defends himself well. My critique of our health leaders is a criticism of the the Trump administration. I don’t think think we were or are being led well by the CDC or NIH. https://www.dailysignal.com/2021/12/13/scott-atlas-exposes-how-anthony-fauci-undermined-trump-and-misled-americans-on-covid/ You place Atalas above the CDC etc. It is deluded. The CDC can defend themselves well too. They have a MUCH better track record than this radiologist.
pogi Posted January 5, 2022 Posted January 5, 2022 54 minutes ago, strappinglad said: I'm sure this is not a political statement, but I recall that Biden and Harris both were adamant that they would NOT be getting the " trump" vaccine no matter what. I'm also sure those statements had absolutely no effect on the population at large. Since we are all about context: https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/jul/23/tiktok-posts/biden-harris-doubted-trump-covid-19-vaccines-not-v/
bsjkki Posted January 5, 2022 Posted January 5, 2022 5 minutes ago, pogi said: You place Atalas above the CDC etc. It is deluded. The CDC can defend themselves well too. They have a MUCH better track record than this radiologist. Not above. Just posting a rebuttal in his own words. People can decide.
bsjkki Posted January 5, 2022 Posted January 5, 2022 (edited) 41 minutes ago, pogi said: Why can't you just admit that he was wrong then and say that he did it with noble intentions? Instead, you try to defend every comment as if there was no deception intended. Doesn't make sense. The whole reason I brought up Trump is because another posted was irate that "lies" from Europe where they had intentionally inflated the perception of fear to help save lives. I suggested that Trump did the exact same thing but from the more damaging angle of downplaying it. What he did was noble though, so he gets a pass, but Europe is the devil! Even if we believe that Trump had noble intentions (I don't buy it, all he cares about is perceptions and reelection, etc.), he deceived the pubic and is responsible for people dying because they didn't take it seriously. He gave fuel to the conspiracy theorists, and it back fired. It was poorly played and it backfired. Americans are suffering because of it. Even still Republicans are WAY under vaccinated compared to democrats. I called out the noble lies about masks in the beginning. I never condoned it. I have called out every intentional deception that I have witnessed. I do not defend the lies and deception, like you seem to be doing, pretending like they are not lies. I agree that there is incompetence on every level. The CDC's change with isolation/quarantine guidelines is a mess. You would think that they would have learned their lesson by now... I don't excuse them in their mistakes. I am more willing ot excuse behavior from people who's intentions are to protect the American people and encourage them to take precautions. I am less forgiving of people who tell deadly lies and downplay the virus, masks, social distancing, and vaccines - especially when it is politically motivated. This comment just shows your intense bias. You place ‘pure’ motivations in one corner and excuse it and due to tds cast other mistakes as evil. With my very anti vaxx family members I often argue to them that maybe people want them to get vaxxed so they don’t die. They get so caught up with perceived evil intent that it clouds their reasoning. It would help to allow rigorous debate because all the censorship and vilification of differing views has only created more distrust. Things turned very political in February/March and it has been all downhill. Edited January 5, 2022 by bsjkki 2
Calm Posted January 5, 2022 Author Posted January 5, 2022 (edited) 57 minutes ago, strappinglad said: I'm sure this is not a political statement, but I recall that Biden and Harris both were adamant that they would NOT be getting the " trump" vaccine no matter what. I'm also sure those statements had absolutely no effect on the population at large. Quote "I will say that I would not trust Donald Trump, and it would have to be a credible source of information that talks about the efficacy and the reliability of whatever he's talking about," Harris told CNN's State of the Union in September 2020. She added that the vaccines will be an "issue for all of us." At the vice presidential debate a month later, Harris reiterated that if Trump "tells us we should take it, I'm not going to take it." Instead, she said, she would listen to Dr. Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases. If the NIAID recommended it, she added, she would be "first in line." Harris did not say that she would never take the vaccine, she wasn’t going to take it on Trump’s sayso (she wasn’t the first making it political and using Covid to discredit her opponent but she didn’t have to go there and she did and is responsible for that). That wasn’t great, making the vaccine political was bad Imo and may have costs lives among minorities and others who needed the vaccine most, but she did not say what you were saying. It is a much higher percentage of Trump’s followers who are refusing to get vaccine at this point in spite of the evidence of its effectiveness. Unless he has little influence over his followers, he helped craft that attitude by his total approach to Covid over time. The idea Republicans are not taking the vaccine because Harris and Biden pushed distrust of Trump’s involvement in the development just doesn’t make sense. https://www.newsweek.com/trump-blames-biden-distrust-harris-nasty-comments-vaccine-hesitancy-1635425 https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/05/politics/kamala-harris-not-trust-trump-vaccine-cnntv/index.html Edited January 5, 2022 by Calm
Chum Posted January 5, 2022 Posted January 5, 2022 4 minutes ago, strappinglad said: I'm sure this is not a political statement, but I recall that Biden and Harris both were adamant that they would NOT be getting the " trump" vaccine no matter what. I'm also sure those statements had absolutely no effect on the population at large. From what I understand, this applies to a couple of different things. One was a sampled/remixed viral video that echoes what you said. We can toss that out as being untrue. Without getting too far into the weeds I can offer that Biden and Harris expressed concern that Trump interference could compromise the vaccine development process. My conclusion is these Biden/Harris comments were unhelpful because they focused on the man instead of the far more relevant players. Development occurred wholly within the pharmaceutical companies (largely out of Trump's reach) and I see no evidence Trump attempted to interfere with the clinical trials. I realize this touches on the political but I feel it is appropriate as it speaks to the integrity of vaccines. 3
BRMC Posted January 5, 2022 Posted January 5, 2022 1 hour ago, pogi said: I think it is a record day for deaths too at 44. Tragic. CFR please
bsjkki Posted January 5, 2022 Posted January 5, 2022 (edited) 24 minutes ago, Calm said: Harris did not say that she would never take the vaccine, she wasn’t going to take it on Trump’s sayso (she wasn’t the first making it political and using Covid to discredit her opponent but she didn’t have to go there and she did and is responsible for that). That wasn’t great, making the vaccine political was bad Imo and may have costs lives among minorities and others who needed the vaccine most, but she did not say what you were saying. It is a much higher percentage of Trump’s followers who are refusing to get vaccine at this point in spite of the evidence of its effectiveness. Unless he has little influence over his followers, he helped craft that attitude by his total approach to Covid over time. The idea Republicans are not taking the vaccine because Harris and Biden pushed distrust of Trump’s involvement in the development just doesn’t make sense. https://www.newsweek.com/trump-blames-biden-distrust-harris-nasty-comments-vaccine-hesitancy-1635425 https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/05/politics/kamala-harris-not-trust-trump-vaccine-cnntv/index.html Here is a nice, statistical analysis of those who are not vaxxed. (leans left bias) https://www.salon.com/2021/12/22/are-the-vaccine-holdouts-americas-real-divide-might-not-be-what-you-think/ Edited January 5, 2022 by bsjkki
pogi Posted January 5, 2022 Posted January 5, 2022 (edited) 51 minutes ago, bsjkki said: This comment just shows your intense bias. You place ‘pure’ motivations in one corner and excuse it and due to tds cast other mistakes as evil. I have no problem admitting that I am biased against Trump. I can't stand his face. This coming from a long-time republican. I have never voted for a president that wasn't republican, except for Trump. I will most certainly voter for republican's again. This is not a party thing, it is a person thing. I am afraid the person has infected the party though. I never excused anything. I can forgive it easier though. Big difference. Motivations matter. Our judicial system seems to think so too. 51 minutes ago, bsjkki said: It would help to allow rigorous debate because all the censorship and vilification of differing views has only created more distrust. I wish Trump felt the same way. You can't debate with him. If you do not parrot what he likes to hear, he will just push you aside and hire someone like Atlas with zero experience. That is dangerous! You don't want someone like that as President during a pandemic. Then he started publicly shaming anyone who disagreed with him (even in his own team) and humiliating them, resorting to name calling. Did you notice a change in public toxicity since he was elected? He exacerbated the divide and put salt in the wounds. He wants that! His methods are deadly to democracy. I am honestly afraid for 2024. 51 minutes ago, bsjkki said: Things turned very political in February/March and it has been all downhill. Things turned political the second that Trump started downplaying things and recommending unproven medications and UV light and disinfectant and made fun of masks and tried to slow down testing, etc. etc. etc. It was a freak show the whole time. His entire infectious disease team thought so, except for Atlas (which is why he was hired). Edited January 5, 2022 by pogi 1
Chum Posted January 5, 2022 Posted January 5, 2022 (edited) eh. changed my mind. maybe some other time. Edited January 5, 2022 by Chum
bsjkki Posted January 5, 2022 Posted January 5, 2022 (edited) 24 minutes ago, pogi said: I have no problem admitting that I am biased against Trump. I can't stand his face. I never excused anything. I can forgive it easier though. Big difference. Motivations matter. Our judicial system seems to think so too. I wish Trump felt the same way. You can't debate with him. If you do not parrot what he likes to hear, he will just push you aside and hire someone like Atlas with zero experience. That is dangerous! You don't want someone like that as President during a pandemic. Then he started publicly shaming anyone who disagreed with him (even in his own team) and humiliating them, resorting to name calling. Did you notice a change in public toxicity since he was elected? He exacerbated the divide and put salt in the wounds. He wants that! His methods are deadly to democracy. I am honestly afraid for 2024. Things turned political the second that Trump started downplaying things and recommending unproven medications and UV light and disinfectant and made fun of masks and tried to slow down testing, etc. etc. etc. It was a freak show the whole time. His entire infectious disease team thought so, except for Atlas (which is why he was hired). Nah. It started when they called him racist for restricting travel from China and then encouraging large public gatherings. But Pogi, I get it, you really despise the guy. Oh, and the initial testing debacle was the CDC’s fault. And, with the current CDC testing statements by Fauci, there were problems with our testing criteria and diagnostic value of a positive test. PCR tests run too many cycles and testing positive even though not infectious. We’ve learned a lot. And, cloth masks are proven largely ineffective and ‘face decorations.’ We have learned so much. The bleach and light criticisms are more to do with a media frenzy eager to jump on any misconstrued statement. That frenzy no longer exists with the current occupant who says so many false and misleading things. I noticed a toxic level of hate directed his way. No honeymoon period. Media vitriol 24/7. Dirty tricks and investigative set ups. All the ‘rules’ were thrown out and it was get Trump at all costs for 4 years. You blame him. I find that like blaming the victim of bullies when they defend themselves. I could do this all day but will try and bow out for the threads sake. My sincere hope is Omicron sweeps through with its very contagious less lethal disease and this ends soon. Edited January 5, 2022 by bsjkki 2
smac97 Posted January 5, 2022 Posted January 5, 2022 An excerpt from this article: So long, heroes: Mayo Clinic fires 700 workers over vaccination mandate: Quote I’m so old that I can remember when first responders and health-care workers were the Heroes of the Pandemic. It doesn’t take long to go from hero to goat these days, not even in the middle of a personnel shortage in the health-care industry and a spike in transmissions that clearly include vaccinated people. Mayo Clinic fired 700 of its workers last night for failing to get vaccinated according to its mandate, a number that amounts to one percent of its overall workforce. ... So let’s get the usual caveats out of the way first. Anyone who isn’t contraindicated for vaccines on the basis of medical issues should get themselves vaccinated and boosted ASAP. It’s the best way to avoid serious illness from a COVID-19 infection. All of the data on hospitalizations and deaths underscore the wide chasm of such outcomes between the vaccinated and unvaccinated. Naturally acquired immunity helps and might be enough for some, but vaccination is the best tool to prevent serious, negative outcomes. However, that applies to the people themselves. The CDC has already declared that while vaccinated and boosted people might not be as contagious as the unvaccinated, they are still vectors for transmission nonetheless — both of the Delta and Omicron variants. Especially Omicron, where asymptomatic transmission has already been well documented: Quote The Omicron variant likely will spread more easily than the original SARS-CoV-2 virus and how easily Omicron spreads compared to Delta remains unknown. CDC expects that anyone with Omicron infection can spread the virus to others, even if they are vaccinated or don’t have symptoms. If that’s the case, and if Omicron is crowding out Delta (which also likely transmits asymptomatically), then what’s the point of vaccine mandates in the workplace? The vaccinated can carry and spread the virus too. There may be an argument for masking in the workplace, but not with the masks currently in most use, and it would only mitigate the issue, not eliminate it. These workplaces will spread the virus whether or not they have 100% vaccination compliance. If it’s to prevent workplace illness and shortages, this policy equates to cutting off one’s nose to spite one’s face. Mayo is creating a workplace staffing shortage by firing employees ahead of … what, exactly? Sick days? Even the fully vaccinated will get sick — just mildly sick rather than seriously, but probably sick enough to sit out of work. Even those employees who don’t get sick but test positive are expected to isolate for at least five days, so again … what’s gained in firing workers whose decisions only really impact their own health in this context? As an employer, Mayo has the prerogative to set its conditions for employment, within reason. Vaccination mandates in a health-care services setting are probably within the law, apart from any collective-bargaining agreement issues. That doesn’t make them wise, right, or productive. And in handling people who have been on the front lines of the pandemic from the beginning, it looks like a demonstration of breathtaking ingratitude on Mayo’s part. Thoughts? Thanks, -Smac
pogi Posted January 5, 2022 Posted January 5, 2022 (edited) 24 minutes ago, smac97 said: An excerpt from this article: So long, heroes: Mayo Clinic fires 700 workers over vaccination mandate: Thoughts? Thanks, -Smac It seems like most people who were arguing against mandates suggested that private companies should have the right to make that decision for themselves. I can't remember if you were one of those people. Where do you stand on private companies deciding for themselves? Edited January 5, 2022 by pogi
pogi Posted January 5, 2022 Posted January 5, 2022 (edited) 39 minutes ago, bsjkki said: You blame him. I find that like blaming the victim of bullies when they defend themselves. Yes, he is an innocent victim in all of this Covid mess.... He screwed up Covid, countless people died because of his downplaying of the virus, he almost screwed up democracy...and we still can't admit that he did anything wrong. If you can't tell, I am angry. I will step down too. I need a breather from thoughts about Trump. Edited January 5, 2022 by pogi
strappinglad Posted January 5, 2022 Posted January 5, 2022 25 minutes ago, smac97 said: a number that amounts to one percent of its overall workforce. Is this saying that the Mayo Clinic has 70000 staff? Wow !
smac97 Posted January 5, 2022 Posted January 5, 2022 32 minutes ago, pogi said: It seems like most people who were arguing against mandates suggested that private companies should have the right to make that decision for themselves. I can't remember if you were one of those people. Where do you stand on private companies deciding for themselves? I'm pretty much a "free market" kind of guy. I am also a big proponent of bodily autonomy. Can private employers fire people who don't get vaccinated against the flu? Essentially, I think "yes." Let the free market do its thing. What about firing employees who smoke? Who drink? Are overweight? Get tattoos? Engage in risky sexual behaviors? Contract an STI? These would likely create more problems and risks than they're worth, but as a practical matter, I think the answer is still probably "yes." Get pregnant? This would be de facto discrimination based on sex, so . . . probably no. The issue becomes more complicated when "private company" mandates are merely "pass through," as in the requirement to get a vaccine is originating from the government. I have a big problem with that. See here: Quote The latest federal vaccine mandate applies to all private-sector companies with 100 or more employees, including both full-time and part-time workers, which covers more than 84 million workers and two-thirds of the nation’s private-sector workforce. Thanks, -Smac
smac97 Posted January 5, 2022 Posted January 5, 2022 Here's the part of the article that I thought most noteworthy: Quote The CDC has already declared that while vaccinated and boosted people might not be as contagious as the unvaccinated, they are still vectors for transmission nonetheless — both of the Delta and Omicron variants. Especially Omicron, where asymptomatic transmission has already been well documented: Quote The Omicron variant likely will spread more easily than the original SARS-CoV-2 virus and how easily Omicron spreads compared to Delta remains unknown. CDC expects that anyone with Omicron infection can spread the virus to others, even if they are vaccinated or don’t have symptoms. If that’s the case, and if Omicron is crowding out Delta (which also likely transmits asymptomatically), then what’s the point of vaccine mandates in the workplace? The vaccinated can carry and spread the virus too. There may be an argument for masking in the workplace, but not with the masks currently in most use, and it would only mitigate the issue, not eliminate it. These workplaces will spread the virus whether or not they have 100% vaccination compliance. If it’s to prevent workplace illness and shortages, this policy equates to cutting off one’s nose to spite one’s face. Mayo is creating a workplace staffing shortage by firing employees ahead of … what, exactly? Sick days? Even the fully vaccinated will get sick — just mildly sick rather than seriously, but probably sick enough to sit out of work. Even those employees who don’t get sick but test positive are expected to isolate for at least five days, so again … what’s gained in firing workers whose decisions only really impact their own health in this context? As an employer, Mayo has the prerogative to set its conditions for employment, within reason. Vaccination mandates in a health-care services setting are probably within the law, apart from any collective-bargaining agreement issues. That doesn’t make them wise, right, or productive. And in handling people who have been on the front lines of the pandemic from the beginning, it looks like a demonstration of breathtaking ingratitude on Mayo’s part. Thoughts? Thanks, -Smac -1
pogi Posted January 5, 2022 Posted January 5, 2022 (edited) 33 minutes ago, smac97 said: Here's the part of the article that I thought most noteworthy: Thoughts? Thanks, -Smac It's the same with masking and social distancing - people can still be vectors. There is no silver bullet, but all measures to reduce transmission are important. Measures that both reduce transmission and simultaneously reduce hospitalization and death if infected are good things. Edited January 5, 2022 by pogi
pogi Posted January 6, 2022 Posted January 6, 2022 Fantastic news on the global vaccination front. https://apple.news/AkB5J8VxQSDC3_F1CSQnGLw 1
Calm Posted January 6, 2022 Author Posted January 6, 2022 4 hours ago, bsjkki said: Here is a nice, statistical analysis of those who are not vaxxed. (leans left bias) https://www.salon.com/2021/12/22/are-the-vaccine-holdouts-americas-real-divide-might-not-be-what-you-think/ Interesting…I started not being able to focus so need to take a break before finishing it. I want to know why being Republican appears to make a difference (26% less likely iirc) if it is age (being 60 and older) that is the only category that has a significantly different prediction rate from other categories for being vaccinated. Hopefully that will be explained. 2
Calm Posted January 6, 2022 Author Posted January 6, 2022 4 hours ago, smac97 said: An excerpt from this article: So long, heroes: Mayo Clinic fires 700 workers over vaccination mandate: Thoughts? Thanks, -Smac It did not say whether they were medical personnel or staff support. For example, Mayo Clinic has a massive online presence in many health areas. I am not sure I would have labeled these workers as heroes unless they had been spending day and night, giving up their leisure hours excessively or without pay working to get info about Covid online. Not sure I would call the staff in billing heroes if all they were doing was sending out notices on unpaid bills. While necessary to keep things working, it is not heroic if not risky or way over and beyond their usual stuff that keeps the Clinic working.
Calm Posted January 6, 2022 Author Posted January 6, 2022 (edited) 4 hours ago, strappinglad said: Is this saying that the Mayo Clinic has 70000 staff? Wow ! It is huge… https://www.mayoclinic.org/departments-centers/index 73,000 apparently: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/mayo-clinic-fires-700-workers-failed-comply-covid-vaccine-mandate-rcna11004 (trying to find a breakdown of what department the staff were employed in…can’t find anything except it was their Arizona and Minnesota campuses, not Florida https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/coronavirus/2022/01/05/florida-covid-vaccine-mandate-lawsuit-protects-jobs-mayo-clinic-jacksonville-staff-unvaccinated/9101126002/ ) There is some cases here where part time and full time or more detail are listed, but mostly just percentages of workforce: https://www.fiercehealthcare.com/hospitals/how-many-employees-have-hospitals-lost-to-vaccine-mandates-numbers-so-far This was the most detailed: Quote ChristianaCare President and CEO Janice Nevin, M.D., wrote in a Sept. 27 blog post that the system's vaccination policy resulted in the loss of approximately 150 employees, the equivalent of fewer than 90 full-time employees. Fewer than 48 full-time equivalents provided direct patient care and fewer than 12 full-time equivalents were nurses. Nevin also noted that ChristianaCare, which employed 13,412 during 2020, had also hired more than 200 caregivers during the last month alone. It looks like if it is mentioned, part time and as needed workers are much more likely to walk. Can’t say about direct patient care or nurses besides this one. I wish they had included percentage of work force that did those two and not just the number who walked. Edited January 6, 2022 by Calm
SeekingUnderstanding Posted January 6, 2022 Posted January 6, 2022 55 minutes ago, Calm said: Interesting…I started not being able to focus so need to take a break before finishing it. I want to know why being Republican appears to make a difference (26% less likely iirc) if it is age (being 60 and older) that is the only category that has a significantly different prediction rate from other categories for being vaccinated. Hopefully that will be explained. I felt like the middle panel of the comic below applies to that article. 2
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