pogi Posted November 1, 2021 Posted November 1, 2021 (edited) 4 hours ago, nuclearfuels said: It is a faith within a Faith. No, we are following the prophet and science. Your foundation looks pretty weak from here. When the prophets and science align, it is a beautiful thing. When your ward follows their harmonious counsel, it is wonderful. You are kicking against the pricks my friend to contest against both science and religion on this matter. You are the one creating a faith within a faith. You still haven't answered my question. Weak sauce! Edited November 2, 2021 by pogi 3
The Nehor Posted November 1, 2021 Posted November 1, 2021 2 hours ago, nuclearfuels said: It is a faith within a Faith. A heresy within a faith. 1
Hamba Tuhan Posted November 2, 2021 Posted November 2, 2021 (edited) 8 hours ago, nuclearfuels said: I advocate individuals becoming sovereign mentally, financially, and physically. Yep, because 'sovereignty' is the scriptural pattern we've been given to follow. Oh, wait ... Quote 1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power [Greek: authorities], resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. Quote 13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord’s sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; 14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well. 15 For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men: 16 As free, and not using your liberty for a cloak of maliciousness, but as the servants of God. Quote 21 Let no man break the laws of the land, for he that keepeth the laws of God hath no need to break the laws of the land. 22 Wherefore, be subject to the powers that be, until he reigns whose right it is to reign, and subdues all enemies under his feet. Submission to secular authority, of course, is part of learning to be submissive to divine authority. People try to fool themselves into thinking that they can rebel against both prophets and magistrates in order to submit to God alone -- and, in fact, this concept underpins much of the Protestant Reformation -- but as the Lord has made very clear, those who can't bring themselves to submit to the mortal authorities whom He has placed over them (or allowed to rule over them) will never be able to humble themselves enough to submit to His infinitely greater demands. And don't be fooled: submission is requisite: Quote 28 But that ye would humble yourselves before the Lord, and call on his holy name, and watch and pray continually, that ye may not be tempted above that which ye can bear, and thus be led by the Holy Spirit, becoming humble, meek, submissive, patient, full of love and all long-suffering; Quote 23 And now I would that ye should be humble, and be submissive and gentle; easy to be entreated; full of patience and long-suffering; being temperate in all things; being diligent in keeping the commandments of God at all times; asking for whatsoever things ye stand in need, both spiritual and temporal; always returning thanks unto God for whatsoever things ye do receive. Quote 19 For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father. It is the natural man who declares himself sovereign, in clear emulation of what the great deceiver did in the premortal council. Pres Benson (emphasis added): Quote Pride does not look up to God and care about what is right. It looks sideways to man and argues who is right. Pride is manifest in the spirit of contention. Was it not through pride that the devil became the devil? Christ wanted to serve. The devil wanted to rule. Christ wanted to bring men to where He was. The devil wanted to be above men. Christ removed self as the force in His perfect life. It was not my will, but thine be done Edited November 2, 2021 by Hamba Tuhan 2
Rivers Posted November 3, 2021 Posted November 3, 2021 On 10/30/2021 at 5:12 PM, nuclearfuels said: What are you all seeing and hearing in your wards? The FP letter was read from the pulpit. Some people mask. Some don’t. Some are vaccinated. Others are not. We’re free to choose. It’s great. I got the jab when it first came out and received my booster shot today. I wear a mask in church meetings where it’s harder to social distance.
Danzo Posted November 5, 2021 Posted November 5, 2021 On 11/1/2021 at 9:44 PM, Hamba Tuhan said: Yep, because 'sovereignty' is the scriptural pattern we've been given to follow. Oh, wait ... Submission to secular authority, of course, is part of learning to be submissive to divine authority. People try to fool themselves into thinking that they can rebel against both prophets and magistrates in order to submit to God alone -- and, in fact, this concept underpins much of the Protestant Reformation -- but as the Lord has made very clear, those who can't bring themselves to submit to the mortal authorities whom He has placed over them (or allowed to rule over them) will never be able to humble themselves enough to submit to His infinitely greater demands. And don't be fooled: submission is requisite: It is the natural man who declares himself sovereign, in clear emulation of what the great deceiver did in the premortal council. Pres Benson (emphasis added): I just received a calling as Elders quorum president and I was reviewing the handbook this morning. It would seem that helping people become self relient is a big part of the job. I agree with what you are saying about the need to be submissive, but I would add that the Lord wants people to be submissive of their own free will. If I recall correctly, Alma in alma 32 indicated that it is much more valuable to be voluntarly humble than be compelled to be humble. I think self relience and sovereignty over ones self is a prerequisit to submitting to God. Its tempting to want to skip that step, but God doesn't skip it and I don't think we should try to skip it as well. End the end submission to God actually increase our "Sovereignty" and Self relience. As for submission to the laws of the land, the church does teach that. But their are exceptions. 1
The Nehor Posted November 7, 2021 Posted November 7, 2021 On 11/5/2021 at 11:37 AM, Danzo said: I just received a calling as Elders quorum president and I was reviewing the handbook this morning. It would seem that helping people become self relient is a big part of the job. I agree with what you are saying about the need to be submissive, but I would add that the Lord wants people to be submissive of their own free will. If I recall correctly, Alma in alma 32 indicated that it is much more valuable to be voluntarly humble than be compelled to be humble. I think self relience and sovereignty over ones self is a prerequisit to submitting to God. Its tempting to want to skip that step, but God doesn't skip it and I don't think we should try to skip it as well. End the end submission to God actually increase our "Sovereignty" and Self relience. As for submission to the laws of the land, the church does teach that. But their are exceptions. Self reliance is a means to an end and not an end in itself as Presdent Romney used to say. Self-reliance alone for the purpose solely of not needing others can canker the soul. 2
Bernard Gui Posted November 7, 2021 Posted November 7, 2021 On 10/30/2021 at 7:28 PM, LoudmouthMormon said: Well, since everything is available online, there's no reason to be anything other than 100% correct here. I think this is the latest on the church website. Bolding mine: https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/first-presidency-message-covid-19-august-2021 That's the letter. Yes, most certainly, indeedily-doodily, they did indeed, absolutely, clearly, and transparently, and obviously, "recommend exceeding local health guidance". It doesn't say "we urge the use of face masks where recommended by local health guidance", now does it. So, nuclearfuels, now that you are directed to the direct link, to the church's own website, where you can see the exact text of the letter, and it shows you how incorrect your claim was, what are you going to do now? (Ten bucks says you're gonna at least mention the article title, that adds on to the letter's message.) Anyway, for the rest of your post: We just finished our traditional ward chili cook-off and trunk-or-treat. Absolutely zero precautions in place. All 3 sections of the cultural hall were full of people, 95% of us unmasked, all happily talking away at the top of our lungs for two hours in an enclosed building, which is prime superspreader behavior. All of us happily using the same serving spoons, eating out of the same dozen-or-more crockpots, helping ourselves to cookies and deserts on plates. We had one of our older members in attendance, and numerous folks in their 60's, none masked. I'll tell you the award for best chili was stolen from me in a most stunning upset. Mine was one of two entries that went home with empty crock pots. The winning entry went home maybe 75% unconsumed. The appalling injustice of it all! Was that your famous “Clear the Camp Chili” recipe? I noticed you used the correct spelling. 1
nuclearfuels Posted November 15, 2021 Author Posted November 15, 2021 On 11/5/2021 at 12:37 PM, Danzo said: self relience and sovereignty over ones self is a prerequisit to submitting to God. Its tempting to want to skip that step, but God doesn't skip it and I don't think we should try to skip it as well. Bingo
nuclearfuels Posted November 15, 2021 Author Posted November 15, 2021 On 10/31/2021 at 4:50 PM, ttribe said: If you really want people to cheer you on with this drivel, I suggest www.ldsfreedomforum.com Planning on it, jack ***
nuclearfuels Posted November 15, 2021 Author Posted November 15, 2021 On 11/1/2021 at 5:23 PM, pogi said: You still haven't answered my question. Weak sauce! You think asking me to repeat what I already clearly stated will weaken my argument or make me question what I wrote. If you didn't understand my OP, please read it again. Still rooting for you, mate
pogi Posted November 15, 2021 Posted November 15, 2021 19 minutes ago, nuclearfuels said: You think asking me to repeat what I already clearly stated will weaken my argument or make me question what I wrote. If you didn't understand my OP, please read it again. Still rooting for you, mate It doesn't answer my question. I have read it, and re-read it. Again, Quote Does your ward "exceed local health guidance" in regards to masks? How so? Does urging masks if you can't distance "exceed" local regulations? I am confused. Quote I'm still trying to figure out where your ward is "exceeding local health guidance" by urging (not mandating) people to wear masks if they can't socially distance. 1
ttribe Posted November 17, 2021 Posted November 17, 2021 On 11/15/2021 at 12:27 PM, nuclearfuels said: Planning on it, jack *** Lovely. 1
Teancum Posted November 17, 2021 Posted November 17, 2021 On 11/5/2021 at 12:37 PM, Danzo said: End the end submission to God actually increase our "Sovereignty" and Self relience. How so?
Danzo Posted November 18, 2021 Posted November 18, 2021 6 hours ago, Teancum said: How so? God gives us commandments to help us. As we follow those commandments we get more blessings. Those blessings include more power to do things. For example, I have a brother who didn't take the word of wisdom seriously. because he as developed an addiction to Nicotine, his freedom has been reduced. Paying tithing helps me have more freedom from materalism. Obeying the law of the saboth has increased my well being. Many of my fellow accounts marvel at how I can have to freedom to not work on sundays during tax season. I can see the damage that working seven days a week has on them. Obeying the law of chastity has prevented me from paying child support, alimony like many of my clients end up haveing to do. 1
Mark Beesley Posted November 22, 2021 Posted November 22, 2021 On 11/1/2021 at 12:56 PM, nuclearfuels said: 100% true. And I can vote w/ my wallet as I've now done. And this illustrates perfectly how far we are from being a Zion people. We will remain distant from that lofty appellation until we quit voting our wallet and start voting our poor, homeless, hungry brother or sister’s wallet!
Calm Posted November 22, 2021 Posted November 22, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Mark Beesley said: we quit voting our wallet and start voting our poor, homeless, hungry brother or sister’s wallet! While I disagree with much of what nuclear says, here I think he was just addressing what he supports with his money rather than voting to maximize it. Giving his money to those in need may very well be part of what he sees as voting with his wallet. In many ways voting with one’s wallet could be more effective than voting for social community support. Still drowned out on wider levels by those with big bucks willing to spend on influence, but in terms of local or individual it is direct action and not delayed as voting for government is. Hopefully he will correct me if I have misinterpreted him. Edited November 22, 2021 by Calm
nuclearfuels Posted November 28, 2021 Author Posted November 28, 2021 On 11/22/2021 at 11:30 AM, Mark Beesley said: And this illustrates perfectly how far we are from being a Zion people. We will remain distant from that lofty appellation until we quit voting our wallet and start voting our poor, homeless, hungry brother or sister’s wallet! That's what democracy is. Two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner The State of Deseret was sovereign and closer (?) to Zion than we are today. Must be all the liberating we've been blessed with since Brigham's time.
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