Unprecedented times call for unprecedented measures.

[nuclearfuels]

In like manner, it is now time that we each implement extraordinary measures—perhaps measures we have never taken before—to strengthen our personal spiritual foundations. Unprecedented times call for unprecedented measures. (emphasis added)

-

What measures would you suggest or which are you comfortable sharing that you're planning on taking? 

It seems like the Prophet is suggesting things other than a one-year supply of food, no?

If I may suggest one interpretation: @Calmsuggested part of President Oaks' address on the Need for a Church suggests individual adaptation to communal failures at church. I agree 100%. If we add to that taking extraordinary measures to achieve and maintain mental, financial, and physical sovereignty be an appropriate response?

 

[CV75]

14 minutes ago, nuclearfuels said:

In like manner, it is now time that we each implement extraordinary measures—perhaps measures we have never taken before—to strengthen our personal spiritual foundations. Unprecedented times call for unprecedented measures. (emphasis added)

-

What measures would you suggest or which are you comfortable sharing that you're planning on taking? 

It seems like the Prophet is suggesting things other than a one-year supply of food, no?

If I may suggest one interpretation: @Calmsuggested part of President Oaks' address on the Need for a Church suggests individual adaptation to communal failures at church. I agree 100%. If we add to that taking extraordinary measures to achieve and maintain mental, financial, and physical sovereignty be an appropriate response?

 

I see the 'adaptation to communal failures"  is as a subset of mental (emotional and social self-reliance). I've seen people putting more of their priority / wherewithal into prayer, study, ministering, etc. To me, "to strengthen our personal spiritual foundations" is simply to strengthen our testimony. This can be done by applying Mosiah 3:19:

19 For the ^anatural ^bman is an ^cenemy to God, and has been from the ^dfall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he ^eyields to the enticings of the ^fHoly Spirit, and ^gputteth off the ^hnatural man and becometh a ⁱsaint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a ^jchild, ^ksubmissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.

 

[rchorse]

36 minutes ago, nuclearfuels said:

In like manner, it is now time that we each implement extraordinary measures—perhaps measures we have never taken before—to strengthen our personal spiritual foundations. Unprecedented times call for unprecedented measures. (emphasis added)

-

What measures would you suggest or which are you comfortable sharing that you're planning on taking? 

It seems like the Prophet is suggesting things other than a one-year supply of food, no?

If I may suggest one interpretation: @Calmsuggested part of President Oaks' address on the Need for a Church suggests individual adaptation to communal failures at church. I agree 100%. If we add to that taking extraordinary measures to achieve and maintain mental, financial, and physical sovereignty be an appropriate response?

 

Given that he was talking about spiritual foundations, I think it's reaching to try to tie that back to financial and physical sovereignty measures. Mental health is arguable.

I don't think this is a veiled message that we all need to become preppers and prepare for the apocalypse. I think what he is referring to is that we need to do whatever is necessary to strengthen ourselves spiritually to handle the social pressure that exists and will increase to abandon our principles and beliefs. I anticipate and have seen this social pressure primarily on a personal level, rather than an institutional one.

Edited October 19, 2021 by rchorse
Formatting and clarity

[smac97]

41 minutes ago, nuclearfuels said:

@Calmsuggested part of President Oaks' address on the Need for a Church suggests individual adaptation to communal failures at church.  I agree 100%.

Part of this may need to include adopting a "mote v. beam," "who am I to cast the first stone" style of attitude toward the community.  I think subjective and arbitrary declarations of "failures" are sometimes (often?) a product of unrighteous judgment of others.

Thanks,

-Smac

[pogi]

2 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

If we add to that taking extraordinary measures to achieve and maintain mental, financial, and physical sovereignty be an appropriate response?

I am curious, what "extraordinary" measures of achieving personal sovereignty do you have in mind?  Sovereignty from the United States?  You are kind of freaking me out here with this "extraordinary measures" towards "sovereignty language, knowing what kind of conspiracies you think the government is involved in - such as using the Marburg virus (which would likely wipe out more than half of the worlds population) to cover up for adverse reactions from the Covid vaccine.  I am afraid of what kind of "extraordinary" response you might be thinking here.   What do you have in mind exactly - storming the castle?  Civil war? Going off the grid completely? 

He was talking about building a "spiritual" foundation, by the way. 

Instructions from the handbook:

Quote

 

Seeking Information from Reliable Sources

In today’s world, information is easy to access and share. This can be a great blessing for those seeking to be educated and informed. However, many sources of information are unreliable and do not edify. Some sources seek to promote...baseless conspiracy theories (see 3 Nephi 11:30; Mosiah 2:32). Therefore, it is important that Church members be wise as they seek truth.

Members of the Church should seek out and share only credible, reliable, and factual sources of information. They should avoid sources that are speculative or founded on rumor. The guidance of the Holy Ghost, along with careful study, can help members discern between truth and error (see Doctrine and Covenants 11:12; 45:57). In matters of doctrine and Church policy, the authoritative sources are the scriptures, the teachings of the living prophets, and the General Handbook.

Interesting that the church who is warning against falling victim to baseless conspiracy theories is itself a victim, according to you - mandating that all of its missionaries be vaccinated (a chink on personal sovereignty for those who want to serve but not be vaccinated), and urging its members get vaccinated. 

 

 

 

Edited October 19, 2021 by pogi

[Navidad]

For me, creating a stronger spiritual foundation involves and necessitates putting aside onlyism, certainty, and othering. I must realize that neither I, my culture, church, or way of looking at things is the only. I must live by faith and trust; casting aside the convenience and ease of certainty. That is how I "work out" my salvation. Lastly I must appreciate and must be ready to receive other's truth without denigrating, being offended by it or them, or trying to convert them to my "truth" as I believe it.  Ranking individuals, faiths, and groups inevitably leads to me, my faith, and my group being ranked above the others. This is ego (I am); the opposite of spiritual foundation-building. My two cents, as someone on this forum regularly says - FWIW.

Edited October 19, 2021 by Navidad
typo

[pogi]

22 minutes ago, Navidad said:

For me, creating a stronger spiritual foundation involves and necessitates putting aside onlyism, certainty, and othering. I must realize that neither I, my culture, church, or way of looking at things is the only. I must live by faith and trust; casting aside the convenience and ease of certainty. That is how I "work out" my salvation. Lastly I must appreciate and must be ready to receive other's truth without denigrating, being offended by it or them, or trying to convert them to my "truth" as I believe it.  Ranking individuals, faiths, and groups inevitably leads to me, my faith, and my group being ranked above the others. This is ego (I am); the opposite of spiritual foundation-building. My two cents, as someone on this forum regularly says - FWIW.

I really respect you Navidad, and your perspective.  I appreciate the humble approach you promote, but didn't Christ (the humblest of all) promote onlysim?  Didn't he command us to go out and "convert" and baptize others to his truth?   Doesn't he place his gospel above all other faiths?  I think even you believe in onlyism but from the wider perspective (Christianity) - it is still onlyism though. 

On the issue of certainty, I agree 100%  We walk by faith. 

[bOObOO]

2 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

In like manner, it is now time that we each implement extraordinary measures—perhaps measures we have never taken before—to strengthen our personal spiritual foundations. Unprecedented times call for unprecedented measures. (emphasis added)

-

What measures would you suggest or which are you comfortable sharing that you're planning on taking? 

It seems like the Prophet is suggesting things other than a one-year supply of food, no?

If I may suggest one interpretation: @Calmsuggested part of President Oaks' address on the Need for a Church suggests individual adaptation to communal failures at church. I agree 100%. If we add to that taking extraordinary measures to achieve and maintain mental, financial, and physical sovereignty be an appropriate response?

 

Charity is a spiritual trait that each one of us should strive to cultivate to perfection.  There were several good discourses given during this last GC about the value and efficacy of charity.  And even if we have already acquired some level of the virtue of charity, already, each of us who is still mortal on this planet could benefit from striving to be even more charitable toward others and to perfect the level of the charity within us.  If these truly are unprecedented times, and unprecedented measures call for doing more than we have ever done before, developing more charity than we have would be a good use of our time now.

Consider me to be target practice, as I will consider each of you to be for me.  Let's start showing more charity to each other than we have ever shown before now.  Seriously.

[Teancum]

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

I see the 'adaptation to communal failures"  is as a subset of mental (emotional and social self-reliance). I've seen people putting more of their priority / wherewithal into prayer, study, ministering, etc. To me, "to strengthen our personal spiritual foundations" is simply to strengthen our testimony. This can be done by applying Mosiah 3:19:

19 For the ^anatural ^bman is an ^cenemy to God, and has been from the ^dfall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he ^eyields to the enticings of the ^fHoly Spirit, and ^gputteth off the ^hnatural man and becometh a ⁱsaint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a ^jchild, ^ksubmissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.

 

Why did God create a natural man that would be his enemy?  Might be a good discussion for another thread.

[Kenngo1969]

47 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Why did God create a natural man that would be his enemy?  Might be a good discussion for another thread.

Others' mileage may vary (and I understand that, certainly, yours will) but I don't think God "created" the natural man so much as He endowed His creation with the capacity to choose: Whatever the degree of favorability or  of extremity of the respective circumstances in which we find ourselves, still, we have the capacity to choose how to respond to those circumstances.  And, whether here, hereafter, or both, the station in which we find ourselves will be influenced greatly by the choices we make.  See 2 Nephi 2:11, 27.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

Why did God create a natural man that would be his enemy?  Might be a good discussion for another thread.

Yes, please start that thread as I would like to participate. My take is that "natural man" is King Benjamin's term, and something we create, not the Pearl of Great Price term which uses "natural" to mean "post-spiritual." God created things spiritually before they were naturally upon the earth in Eden, and before the Fall. The rest is touched upon in @Kenngo1969's post.

Edited October 19, 2021 by CV75

[Olmec Donald]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

Why did God create a natural man that would be his enemy?  Might be a good discussion for another thread.

Imo that's a thought-provoking, and potentially somewhat far-reaching, question. 

16 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Yes, please start that thread as I would like to participate.

Me too.  And I'd like to hear Teancum's thoughts on the subject.

[Navidad]

3 hours ago, pogi said:

I really respect you Navidad, and your perspective.  I appreciate the humble approach you promote, but didn't Christ (the humblest of all) promote onlysim?  Didn't he command us to go out and "convert" and baptize others to his truth?   Doesn't he place his gospel above all other faiths?  I think even you believe in onlyism but from the wider perspective (Christianity) - it is still onlyism though. 

On the issue of certainty, I agree 100%  We walk by faith. 

Thank you for the kind words. I do believe that Christ will be the ultimate judge of access to the Father and eternal life in heaven with the Father and Son. He says, "I am the way the truth and the life, no one comes unto the Father but by me." That is a foundational scripture for me. I interpret it quite literally - no one gets (comes) to the Father but through Christ first who is the judge related to final destiny. In some wondrous manner that I can't comprehend He (Christ) will be prosecuting attorney, defense attorney, jury, and judge all in one for all humanity. What I don't know, and am certainly uncertain about is the criteria He will use, especially since I believe Him (Christ) to be omniscient down to the knowing of our hearts and minds.

On numerous occasions in the New Testament He told people their faith had made them whole (sodzo - safe, free from judgment, free from the Messianic judgment) ; He told the thief on the cross that he would be with Christ in paradise that same day. In no case did he baptize anyone. Most interestingly, on the cross He cried "It is finished." In that short phrase He used the perfect tense which combines elements of both present (continual)  and aorist (point in time) tenses. I find that fascinating. The atonement was complete, His role fulfilled in a continual and point in time meaning. The resurrection had not yet even occurred. He was not yet glorified. It was clearly within hours of his statement to the thief.

So, did all these folks in the NT to whom he spoke become Christians? Did his statement (you are whole - complete) make them Christians at that point in time? So many questions. I won't go on, but I believe in a wideness in God's mercy. I do not believe that everyone who existed prior to "It is finished" will suffer an eternity in the absence of the Father and Son; nor do I believe that all who call Him Lord will be with Him forever. I simply can't judge the faith of another person. I can't judge the finest best most loving person I have ever met; nor the worst most terrible person I have ever met. That is Christ's job. He finished the work of atonement and someday in the future He will finish the work of granting or denying access to the Father for all time.

Within Evangelicalism there are four or five very separate and distinct beliefs/positions about who Christ will allow to come unto the Father. Very restricted to very wide in His decision making. My understanding of Scripture informs me that it has nothing to do with baptism, church affiliation, or the like. Christ, when here on earth, declared folks whole who had none of these. Once Christ declares someone whole, that person is generally safe from negative judgment. I may be wrong. It has to do with the faith of a person and what he or she has done with the light (revelation) received. Beyond that the glass is too dark for me to say more.

Just this, my own personal missionary journey in the booniest part of Africa led me to the conclusion that there is no way a loving God would condemn all these wonderful people to spending all eternity outside of His presence. That is my lived experience, belief and faith. That is why I reject onlyism while accepting the need for faith and being declared whole. The beauty of that is that I am not whole; but am declared so by Christ. That is the best part of the whole plan of salvation. I am not and never will be worthy. I am declared worthy through the worthiness of Christ. For me, it is "finished" - aorist and present tense.

[pogi]

42 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Thank you for the kind words. I do believe that Christ will be the ultimate judge of access to the Father and eternal life in heaven with the Father and Son. He says, "I am the way the truth and the life, no one comes unto the Father but by me." That is a foundational scripture for me. I interpret it quite literally - no one gets (comes) to the Father but through Christ first who is the judge related to final destiny. In some wondrous manner that I can't comprehend He (Christ) will be prosecuting attorney, defense attorney, jury, and judge all in one for all humanity. What I don't know, and am certainly uncertain about is the criteria He will use, especially since I believe Him (Christ) to be omniscient down to the knowing of our hearts and minds.

On numerous occasions in the New Testament He told people their faith had made them whole (sodzo - safe, free from judgment, free from the Messianic judgment) ; He told the thief on the cross that he would be with Christ in paradise that same day. In no case did he baptize anyone. Most interestingly, on the cross He cried "It is finished." In that short phrase He used the perfect tense which combines elements of both present (continual)  and aorist (point in time) tenses. I find that fascinating. The atonement was complete, His role fulfilled in a continual and point in time meaning. The resurrection had not yet even occurred. He was not yet glorified. It was clearly within hours of his statement to the thief.

So, did all these folks in the NT to whom he spoke become Christians? Did his statement (you are whole - complete) make them Christians at that point in time? So many questions. I won't go on, but I believe in a wideness in God's mercy. I do not believe that everyone who existed prior to "It is finished" will suffer an eternity in the absence of the Father and Son; nor do I believe that all who call Him Lord will be with Him forever. I simply can't judge the faith of another person. I can't judge the finest best most loving person I have ever met; nor the worst most terrible person I have ever met. That is Christ's job. He finished the work of atonement and someday in the future He will finish the work of granting or denying access to the Father for all time.

Within Evangelicalism there are four or five very separate and distinct beliefs/positions about who Christ will allow to come unto the Father. Very restricted to very wide in His decision making. My understanding of Scripture informs me that it has nothing to do with baptism, church affiliation, or the like. Christ, when here on earth, declared folks whole who had none of these. Once Christ declares someone whole, that person is generally safe from negative judgment. I may be wrong. It has to do with the faith of a person and what he or she has done with the light (revelation) received. Beyond that the glass is too dark for me to say more.

Just this, my own personal missionary journey in the booniest part of Africa led me to the conclusion that there is no way a loving God would condemn all these wonderful people to spending all eternity outside of His presence. That is my lived experience, belief and faith. That is why I reject onlyism while accepting the need for faith and being declared whole. The beauty of that is that I am not whole; but am declared so by Christ. That is the best part of the whole plan of salvation. I am not and never will be worthy. I am declared worthy through the worthiness of Christ. For me, it is "finished" - aorist and present tense.

Ok, I get that you hold the position of nonjudgment and that people of other faiths may indeed be saved based on your interpretation of the bible.   But in the end, you still believe in evangelism.  Why?  If other faiths are equally valid and your gospel is no more true or better than what they believe, why "convert" them?  Why make them believers?   There must be something exceptional about your beliefs that lead you to convert people to turn from their cultural upbringing. 

 

Edited October 19, 2021 by pogi

[ksfisher]

6 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

In like manner, it is now time that we each implement extraordinary measures—perhaps measures we have never taken before—to strengthen our personal spiritual foundations. Unprecedented times call for unprecedented measures. (emphasis added)

I think this may be best understood and applied on a personal level.  For some paying a full tithe may be unprecedented.  Or perhaps it's attending church regularly, obeying the word of wisdom, or reading the scriptures individually or as a family.  Some may not have attended the temple in years, despite being worth to.  Maybe it's just letting go of things in your past that the Lord has forgotten but the person hasn't. 

 

[nuclearfuels]

17 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

For some paying a full tithe may be unprecedented.  Or perhaps it's attending church regularly, obeying the word of wisdom, or reading the scriptures individually or as a family.  Some may not have attended the temple in years, despite being worth to.  Maybe it's just letting go of things in your past that the Lord has forgotten but the person hasn't. 

True. 

Would those qualify as unprecedented? 

adjective

1. Having no previous example.
2. Having no precedent or example; not preceded by a like case; not having the authority of prior example; novel; new; unexampled.
3. Never before seen or done, without precedent. 

[ksfisher]

1 minute ago, nuclearfuels said:

True. 

Would those qualify as unprecedented? 

adjective

1. Having no previous example.
2. Having no precedent or example; not preceded by a like case; not having the authority of prior example; novel; new; unexampled.
3. Never before seen or done, without precedent. 

If I've never paid a full tithe before then my doing so would seem to qualify under definition 1, for me personally. 

 

[Teancum]

4 hours ago, CV75 said:

Yes, please start that thread as I would like to participate. My take is that "natural man" is King Benjamin's term, and something we create, not the Pearl of Great Price term which uses "natural" to mean "post-spiritual." God created things spiritually before they were naturally upon the earth in Eden, and before the Fall. The rest is touched upon in @Kenngo1969's post.

I will try to get to it tomorrow.

[Navidad]

3 hours ago, pogi said:

Ok, I get that you hold the position of nonjudgment and that people of other faiths may indeed be saved based on your interpretation of the bible.   But in the end, you still believe in evangelism.  Why?  If other faiths are equally valid and your gospel is no more true or better than what they believe, why "convert" them?  Why make them believers?   There must be something exceptional about your beliefs that lead you to convert people to turn from their cultural upbringing. 

 

I am not sure where you get the idea that I am trying to convert folks? I believe in evangelicalism, but I am and always have been a terrible evangelist. When I was younger, in my twenties I would travel preaching in churches with my best friend. He was the evangelist, I was the Bible teacher. He enjoyed converting folks; I enjoyed teaching Christians about sanctification and growth in the Christian life. We had different gifts as I Cor 12 says we all have.

I am not actively engaged in trying to convert anyone. I have attended an LDS church for four years or more. Never have I tried to make anyone there Mennonite or Evangelical. In my understanding of them, they are already Christians via the atonement. I would sure like to see a little more grace and a little less striving to be worthy, but I recognize that as a difference that is an appendage. My mission to Africa was what we call a service/ministry mission. I couldn't speak their language and there was no written language, hence no scriptures; hence no real evanglism. I planted cotton and yams, played the guitar, and worked in the mission hospital.

Of course I believe my faith is exceptional as I believe is yours. As is that of my Catholic, Baptist, and Orthodox friends. My faith gives me confidence and assurance. It doesn't teach me certainty or onlyism. It teaches me that I don't have all the answers. It teaches me I don't have the unique and absolute truth. I do have confidence in my faith and am working on my trust. Oh, and I love my wife dearly. She is my north star that always leads me home whenever I am gone speaking somewhere.

[pogi]

1 minute ago, Navidad said:

I am not sure where you get the idea that I am trying to convert folks? I believe in evangelicalism, but I am and always have been a terrible evangelist. When I was younger, in my twenties I would travel preaching in churches with my best friend. He was the evangelist, I was the Bible teacher. He enjoyed converting folks; I enjoyed teaching Christians about sanctification and growth in the Christian life. We had different gifts as I Cor 12 says we all have.

I am not actively engaged in trying to convert anyone. I have attended an LDS church for four years or more. Never have I tried to make anyone there Mennonite or Evangelical. In my understanding of them, they are already Christians via the atonement. I would sure like to see a little more grace and a little less striving to be worthy, but I recognize that as a difference that is an appendage. My mission to Africa was what we call a service/ministry mission. I couldn't speak their language and there was no written language, hence no scriptures; hence no real evanglism. I planted cotton and yams, played the guitar, and worked in the mission hospital.

Of course I believe my faith is exceptional as I believe is yours. As is that of my Catholic, Baptist, and Orthodox friends. My faith gives me confidence and assurance. It doesn't teach me certainty or onlyism. It teaches me that I don't have all the answers. It teaches me I don't have the unique and absolute truth. I do have confidence in my faith and am working on my trust. Oh, and I love my wife dearly. She is my north star that always leads me home whenever I am gone speaking somewhere.

Do you also believe that Hinduism is exceptional?  Islamism?  You do freely admit that you believe in the evangelicalism.  You believe in the mission of evangelizing non-Christians to bring them into the one true faith and one true fold, correct?  You may not personally engage in it a lot and believe it is not your gift, but do you discourage it as an act of onlyism?  Do you suggest that your fellow evangelists with the gift should be more humble and question their certainty in their mission of evangelizing non-Christians?  Or do you believe that it is worth every effort?  You don't see a point in "converting" Latter-day Saints because we are already Christian, same with Catholics, and Baptists, etc.  but what about non-Christians?  Is there a point there?  If so, why?

[Navidad]

8 hours ago, pogi said:

Do you also believe that Hinduism is exceptional?  Islamism?  You do freely admit that you believe in the evangelicalism.  You believe in the mission of evangelizing non-Christians to bring them into the one true faith and one true fold, correct?  You may not personally engage in it a lot and believe it is not your gift, but do you discourage it as an act of onlyism?  Do you suggest that your fellow evangelists with the gift should be more humble and question their certainty in their mission of evangelizing non-Christians?  Or do you believe that it is worth every effort?  You don't see a point in "converting" Latter-day Saints because we are already Christian, same with Catholics, and Baptists, etc.  but what about non-Christians?  Is there a point there?  If so, why?

Perhaps we could discuss this in another thread. It involves more in depth discussion that is not within the scope of this thread. Thanks.

[The Nehor]

So the Prophet instructs us to strengthen ourselves spiritually and that is code for becoming “sovereign citizens” or something like that?

Book of Mormon warnings about despising plainness come to mind.