Alam 14:11 - modern likening of the doctrines taught in this verse?

[Navidad]

On 10/18/2021 at 2:52 AM, Scott Lloyd said:

Just an incidental point of information, but we now know from research conducted by Alex Baugh that the Hawn name in Hawn’s Mill is spelled with a w in the middle, not an h. Our scripture study aids have been updated accordingly. 

Another incidental tidbit - it is apparent that Jacob Hawn was never a member of the LDS church, which may explain his not following Smith's counsel. His brother was apparently a member. Not long after the Hawn's Mill incident, Jacob left on a Gallatin City wagon trail to Oregon where he established mills near the Mennonite colonies of what became the state of Oregon. Hawn is not an uncommon last name among Mennonites. Perhaps he was Mennonite, which might also explain his hesitancy to leave his home/mill in the face of potential and actual violence?

Edited November 22, 2021 by Navidad

[Navidad]

8 hours ago, Islander said:

Any injury, insult or harm received because our faith in Christ will stand as a witness against the unbelievers in the last day. The Lord warned that in this life we would have tribulation but we must endure to the end. We read in Luke 6:27 "...But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you, Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you..." We are to endure ill-treatment even onto death if necessary. We must remember that many Christians in the world do not live in the West or in developed nations. Most do not have legal recourse or enjoy the civil liberties and protection of the West.

The Lord is patient with the wicked. But His justice will run its course in due time. "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"  Rev. 6:9-10   He WILL.

Interesting. The real challenge here is how to determine if the "injury, insult, or harm" received was "because of our faith in Christ" or because of something totally unrelated to our faith? The faithful almost always see any harm done to them as a function of their faith. That harm then becomes integrated into their sacred history. It then becomes part of a testimony to a form of righteous suffering for the faith. It then validates in some way, their very faith.

When historians shine the spotlight on such situations it is not always clear whether or not the violence was connected to the faith of the oppressed, or due to some other "secular"cause. I am researching right now the 1920s and 1930s First and Second Cristiadas (Cristero Wars) here in Mexico . They are often couched in religious persecution contexts, especially by devout Catholics. Modern interpretations cast significant doubt on that as a valid hermeneutic for the conflicts. Another is the challenge faced by the Saints here in Mexico during the revolution, leading to the three exodi (exoduses?) from Chihuahua and Sonora in the 1910s. Were the causes religious conflicts or the liminal nature of the Saints (and later the Mennonites) here in Mexico? In the 21st century, the conflicts continue. Religion as conflict is a fascinating subject. Persecution for groups like the members of the LDS church and Mennonites provides a real identity and assurance of a kind of righteousness that is found in suffering for the faith. Sociologists have a great time studying this! Arizona State has an entire building set aside for the Study of Religion as Conflict. I think I once heard it was funded by a wealthy member of the church from the Phoenix area. I spoke there a couple of years ago, but forgot to ask if the LDS connection to the founding of the center was indeed true. Fascinating stuff!
 

[Teancum]

On 10/16/2021 at 10:23 PM, nuclearfuels said:

11 But Alma said unto him: The Spirit constraineth me that I must not stretch forth mine hand; for behold the Lord receiveth them up unto himself, in ^aglory; and he doth suffer that they may do this thing, or that the people may do this thing unto them, according to the hardness of their hearts, that the ^bjudgments which he shall exercise upon them in his wrath may be just; and the ^cblood of the ^dinnocent shall stand as a witness against them, yea, and cry mightily against them at the last day

I'm interested in asking each of you how you think the truths and doctrine of this verse might be likened to our lives today.

 

 

I do not believe in a God that allows people to rob the agency of a victim by murdering them so God can use that aa witness to judge the murderer.  Even as a believer this passage never resonated with me.  Since I think there is no truth in this passage it correlates that I don't think it applies to anything today.

[Teancum]

On 10/16/2021 at 10:23 PM, nuclearfuels said:

11 But Alma said unto him: The Spirit constraineth me that I must not stretch forth mine hand; for behold the Lord receiveth them up unto himself, in ^aglory; and he doth suffer that they may do this thing, or that the people may do this thing unto them, according to the hardness of their hearts, that the ^bjudgments which he shall exercise upon them in his wrath may be just; and the ^cblood of the ^dinnocent shall stand as a witness against them, yea, and cry mightily against them at the last day

I'm interested in asking each of you how you think the truths and doctrine of this verse might be likened to our lives today.

 

 

And interestingly enough Alma stretched forth his hand to save his own skin and that of Amulek as well. What a nonsensical story.

[Teancum]

On 10/17/2021 at 12:36 PM, CV75 said:

I think the point is that when the "Spirit constraineth," the righteous follow even it is counterintuitive or difficult to bear. The same thing happened with Nephi in being constrained to kill Laban. To liken this to me, when I am prompted by the Spirit to do or say something, I must act even if I initially feel awkward about it. Or, sometimes it is sometimes better to let things go and let God judge rather than seek revenge or justice for a very real offense in the spirit of contention.

So if you thought the spirit was telling you to kill someone would you?

[CV75]

58 minutes ago, Teancum said:

So if you thought the spirit was telling you to kill someone would you?

Of course. Do I think the Spirit would ever tell me to kill someone? Of course not. Have i ever contemplated such a thing before you mentioned it? Of course not.

Are you concerned that people think the Spirit is telling them to kill people, and doing something about it?

[ksfisher]

On 10/16/2021 at 8:23 PM, nuclearfuels said:

11 But Alma said unto him: The Spirit constraineth me that I must not stretch forth mine hand; for behold the Lord receiveth them up unto himself, in ^aglory; and he doth suffer that they may do this thing, or that the people may do this thing unto them, according to the hardness of their hearts, that the ^bjudgments which he shall exercise upon them in his wrath may be just; and the ^cblood of the ^dinnocent shall stand as a witness against them, yea, and cry mightily against them at the last day

I'm interested in asking each of you how you think the truths and doctrine of this verse might be likened to our lives today.

 

 

We can't fix everything.

God loves His children.

Bad things happen to good people.

In the end all will be accountable to God for their actions.

Edited November 22, 2021 by ksfisher

[Mark Beesley]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

So if you thought the spirit was telling you to kill someone would you?

Do you think the Spirit prompted Teancum to kill Ammoron? I've always had a problem with that slaying as it denied Ammoron the opportunity to gain entrance into Valhalla. 😇

[Scott Lloyd]

3 hours ago, Navidad said:

Another incidental tidbit - it is apparent that Jacob Hawn was never a member of the LDS church, which may explain his not following Smith's counsel. His brother was apparently a member. Not long after the Hawn's Mill incident, Jacob left on a Gallatin City wagon trail to Oregon where he established mills near the Mennonite colonies of what became the state of Oregon. Hawn is not an uncommon last name among Mennonites. Perhaps he was Mennonite, which might also explain his hesitancy to leave his home/mill in the face of potential and actual violence?

Alex Baugh actually found his gravesite in Oregon. The name on the gravestone is spelled with the w in Hawn.  
 

What you say above is consistent with what I have been told by Alex. Another thing that Alex learned is that the author of the “Ramona” series of children’s books, Beverly Cleary, is descended from Jacob Hawn. 
 

Here’s a link to an article I wrote regarding Alex’s findings. 

Edited November 22, 2021 by Scott Lloyd

[Navidad]

2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Alex Baugh actually found his gravesite in Oregon. The name on the gravestone is spelled with the w in Hawn.  
 

What you say above is consistent with what I have been told by Alex. Another thing that Alex learned is that the author of the “Ramona” series of children’s books, Beverly Cleary, is descended from Jacob Hawn. 
 

Here’s a link to an article I wrote regarding Alex’s findings. 

Scott: I don't see the link?

[Scott Lloyd]

3 hours ago, Navidad said:

Scott: I don't see the link?

Sorry! Here it is:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/church/news/new-insights-and-interpretations-of-hawns-mill-massacre?lang=eng

[Islander]

12 hours ago, Navidad said:

Interesting. The real challenge here is how to determine if the "injury, insult, or harm" received was "because of our faith in Christ" or because of something totally unrelated to our faith? The faithful almost always see any harm done to them as a function of their faith. That harm then becomes integrated into their sacred history. It then becomes part of a testimony to a form of righteous suffering for the faith. It then validates in some way, their very faith.

When historians shine the spotlight on such situations it is not always clear whether or not the violence was connected to the faith of the oppressed, or due to some other "secular"cause. I am researching right now the 1920s and 1930s First and Second Cristiadas (Cristero Wars) here in Mexico . They are often couched in religious persecution contexts, especially by devout Catholics. Modern interpretations cast significant doubt on that as a valid hermeneutic for the conflicts. Another is the challenge faced by the Saints here in Mexico during the revolution, leading to the three exodi (exoduses?) from Chihuahua and Sonora in the 1910s. Were the causes religious conflicts or the liminal nature of the Saints (and later the Mennonites) here in Mexico? In the 21st century, the conflicts continue. Religion as conflict is a fascinating subject. Persecution for groups like the members of the LDS church and Mennonites provides a real identity and assurance of a kind of righteousness that is found in suffering for the faith. Sociologists have a great time studying this! Arizona State has an entire building set aside for the Study of Religion as Conflict. I think I once heard it was funded by a wealthy member of the church from the Phoenix area. I spoke there a couple of years ago, but forgot to ask if the LDS connection to the founding of the center was indeed true. Fascinating stuff!
 

At the end, the explicit reason for the injury does not matter. "...And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain." Met. 5:40-41  The historical context here is quite telling. A roman soldier could compel any passer by to render "service to the empire" and command them to carry a load, move stones from the road or whatever else it was required and the Jewish people were forced to comply.

What is clear from scripture (although not very well articulated in the American church) is that we are to endure and not retaliate because of our injury. Why? Because we aspire to be imitators of God who loves His enemies. This capacity is not innate to us. The "natural man" wants to retaliate, strike back and seek retribution. But the Lord insist in being filled with His love that we may endure in faith and humility, without ill-will. He provides this love to us if we ask: "Wherefore, my beloved brethren, pray unto the Father with all the energy of heart, that ye may be filled with this love, which he hath bestowed upon all who are true followers of his Son, Jesus Christ; that ye may become the sons of God..." Moroni 7:48

Peter's admonition here is also quite explicit: "Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous: Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing." 1 Pet. 3:8-9

Again, I do not remember ever hearing this articulated from the pulpit in my 20+ years of church membership but the scriptures are clear on the subject.

[Olmec Donald]

3 hours ago, Islander said:

What is clear from scripture (although not very well articulated in the American church) is that we are to endure and not retaliate because of our injury. Why? Because we aspire to be imitators of God who loves His enemies.  [emphasis Donald's]

Very interesting observation!  It seems to me that the teaching on the subject which stands out in the minds of many if not most people is, "vengeance is mine, saith the Lord".   I suspect that may have been the closest thing to "just let it go" that His audience at the time was capable of accepting.   But would God ask something of us - such as "love your enemies" -  that He does not do?  Unlikely! 

3 hours ago, Islander said:

The "natural man" wants to retaliate, strike back and seek retribution. But the Lord insist in being filled with His love that we may endure in faith and humility, without ill-will. He provides this love to us if we ask: "Wherefore, my beloved brethren, pray unto the Father with all the energy of heart, that ye may be filled with this love, which he hath bestowed upon all who are true followers of his Son, Jesus Christ; that ye may become the sons of God..." Moroni 7:48  [emphasis Islander's]

Many people - good people! - even if they refrain from striking back, still hold out hope that God will take vengeance on those who have wronged them, and I really don't think that's where His heart is at.  I suspect that what will really happen is, given time the person will grow until they are filled with this pure love described by Moroni, at which point they will have no more desire for retribution. 

3 hours ago, Islander said:

 I do not remember ever hearing this articulated from the pulpit in my 20+ years of church membership but the scriptures are clear on the subject.

One place where practical application of the "Golden Rule" IS articulated, is in the accounts of many near-death experiencers.  Apparently during the Life Review, it is as if we become the other person, and experience the effects of our actions literally from their perspective.   "The Golden Rule is not just a precept for moral conduct; it's the way it works.  (Kenneth Ring).  

NDE researcher Kenneth Ring (under 4 minutes video)  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tiKsKy7lFw  

Near-death experiencer Peter Panagore (cued up to start at about 29:25; go to about 32:30)  https://youtu.be/o8aHiwnbXY0?t=1765s 

Near-death experiencer Dave Bennett (starts at about 13:04; go to about 16:00)  https://youtu.be/IM4MBYfLGkQ?t=784

Near-death experiencer Jeffery Olsen (starts at about 12:19; go to about 13:30)  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FD5lReqe64&t=739s 

Edited November 23, 2021 by Olmec Donald

[Navidad]

On 11/22/2021 at 8:26 PM, Islander said:

At the end, the explicit reason for the injury does not matter. "...And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain." Met. 5:40-41  The historical context here is quite telling. A roman soldier could compel any passer by to render "service to the empire" and command them to carry a load, move stones from the road or whatever else it was required and the Jewish people were forced to comply.

What is clear from scripture (although not very well articulated in the American church) is that we are to endure and not retaliate because of our injury. Why? Because we aspire to be imitators of God who loves His enemies. This capacity is not innate to us. The "natural man" wants to retaliate, strike back and seek retribution. But the Lord insist in being filled with His love that we may endure in faith and humility, without ill-will. He provides this love to us if we ask: "Wherefore, my beloved brethren, pray unto the Father with all the energy of heart, that ye may be filled with this love, which he hath bestowed upon all who are true followers of his Son, Jesus Christ; that ye may become the sons of God..." Moroni 7:48

Peter's admonition here is also quite explicit: "Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous: Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing." 1 Pet. 3:8-9

Again, I do not remember ever hearing this articulated from the pulpit in my 20+ years of church membership but the scriptures are clear on the subject.

Are you sure you're not a Mennonite?

[Teancum]

On 11/22/2021 at 11:44 AM, CV75 said:

Of course.

 

THat is rather concerning.

On 11/22/2021 at 11:44 AM, CV75 said:

 

 

 

Do I think the Spirit would ever tell me to kill someone? Of course not. Have i ever contemplated such a thing before you mentioned it? Of course not.

The fact that you are open to murder based on a metaphysical message is a dangerous thing.

On 11/22/2021 at 11:44 AM, CV75 said:

Are you concerned that people think the Spirit is telling them to kill people, and doing something about it?

I am concerned that people are open to and often do stupid things because they think God is telling them to through the "spirit." Lots of evil has been and is done because people think God is telling them to do it.

[Teancum]

On 11/22/2021 at 12:02 PM, Mark Beesley said:

Do you think the Spirit prompted Teancum to kill Ammoron? I've always had a problem with that slaying as it denied Ammoron the opportunity to gain entrance into Valhalla. 😇

No. 

[CV75]

4 hours ago, Teancum said:

 

THat is rather concerning.

The fact that you are open to murder based on a metaphysical message is a dangerous thing.

I am concerned that people are open to and often do stupid things because they think God is telling them to through the "spirit." Lots of evil has been and is done because people think God is telling them to do it.

I think our society has enough checks and balances to prevent most murderous things someone might do because God is telling them, and learn from failures,  so my concern is adequately addressed. That's about all I have any degree of control over.

Are you a vigilante against people who are open to and often do stupid things because they think God is telling them to through the "spirit"? How have you been going about that, or is your concern just academic?

You asked, "So if you thought the spirit was telling you to kill someone would you?" My reply was "Of course" -- what else would a person who thought the spirit was telling them to kill (NOTE: different from murder) someone to do? Whether they are insane, acting in an anti-social manner or (in line with the OP) "in a state contrary to the nature of happiness" is a different question. Do you want to turn this thread into a debate about Nephi killing Laban?

[Teancum]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

I think our society has enough checks and balances to prevent most murderous things someone might do because God is telling them, and learn from failures,  so my concern is adequately addressed. That's about all I have any degree of control over.

Are you a vigilante against people who are open to and often do stupid things because they think God is telling them to through the "spirit"? How have you been going about that, or is your concern just academic?

No.  What a silly question. 

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

You asked, "So if you thought the spirit was telling you to kill someone would you?" My reply was "Of course" -- what else would a person who thought the spirit was telling them to kill (NOTE: different from murder) someone to do? Whether they are insane, acting in an anti-social manner or (in line with the OP) "in a state contrary to the nature of happiness" is a different question. Do you want to turn this thread into a debate about Nephi killing Laban?

Do I?  Not really. To what end? 

[CV75]

52 minutes ago, Teancum said:

No.  What a silly question. 

Do I?  Not really. To what end? 

Yes, your question was also very silly yet I gave it my best reply under those circumstances.

So: what do you think a person who thought the spirit was telling them to kill would do? Ultimately they are listening to some "spirit" just like you do, mental health / personality disorder considerations aside.

Edited November 24, 2021 by CV75

[Rivers]

The main point I get from these verses is that bad things happen.  And there is often nothing you can do about it.

Sure God can intervene and stop bad things from happening from time to time, but most of the time He  lets things take their course.  Jesus healed a lot of people, but He didn’t snap His fingers and heal everyone on the planet. That’s not how things work.  I constantly have to remind my kids that life isn’t fair and you don’t always get what you want.

There are some problems in our world we can fix.  There are some we can’t.  Having a do-something mentality for a problem isn’t always helpful.

[Teancum]

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

Yes, your question was also very silly yet I gave it my best reply under those circumstances.

GIven how you answered it seems it was not silly at all.

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

So: what do you think a person who thought the spirit was telling them to kill would do? Ultimately they are listening to some "spirit" just like you do, mental health / personality disorder considerations aside.

I think it would be wonderful if people could  come to the understanding that there is likely no spirit telling them to do much of anything.

[Tacenda]

9 hours ago, Teancum said:

 

THat is rather concerning.

The fact that you are open to murder based on a metaphysical message is a dangerous thing.

I am concerned that people are open to and often do stupid things because they think God is telling them to through the "spirit." Lots of evil has been and is done because people think God is telling them to do it.

💯

[Calm]

15 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

The fact that you are open to murder based on a metaphysical message is a dangerous thing.

He said killing, not murder.  Does that make a difference to you?

Is he saying all he needs is the metaphysical message to be the only reason he would open to killing someone or would it be one of many/several reasons he was open to it?  Would that make a difference to you?  That he included it in reasoning, but didn’t rely on it alone?

 Say he was in a self defense situation where he was attacked by several people and the only way out would be to put most out of commission. If he was trying to decide whether maiming a particular person was going to be enough or if he should kill the attacker in order to prevent him from trying to attack him again, including when he couldn’t defend himself because of dealing with another attack…would you be horrified if the tipping decision to kill was a belief the spirit told him to kill?

Or say he was a judge, the evidence was a solid conviction, no doubt, videos of the guy slaughtering a dozen people and he bragged about it and said he would do it again if he can.  The judge has the choice to sentence to death or life imprisonment. There is nothing but emotional arguments to judge the best decision between the two. Would you fault him if he decided to order the killing of the convict rather than life based of the spirit telling him to do so?

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

He said killing, not murder.  Does that make a difference to you?

Is he saying all he needs is the metaphysical message to be the only reason he would open to killing someone or would it be one of many/several reasons he was open to it?  Would that make a difference to you?  That he included it in reasoning, but didn’t rely on it alone?

 Say he was in a self defense situation where he was attacked by several people and the only way out would be to put most out of commission. If he was trying to decide whether maiming a particular person was going to be enough or if he should kill the attacker in order to prevent him from trying to attack him again, including when he couldn’t defend himself because of dealing with another attack…would you be horrified if the tipping decision to kill was a belief the spirit told him to kill?

Or say he was a judge, the evidence was a solid conviction, no doubt, videos of the guy slaughtering a dozen people and he bragged about it and said he would do it again if he can.  The judge has the choice to sentence to death or life imprisonment. There is nothing but emotional arguments to judge the best decision between the two. Would you fault him if he decided to order the killing of the convict rather than life based of the spirit telling him to do so?

Calm, that's not my statement, didn't say it, I just 100% ed it, but no worries. 

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Calm, that's not my statement, didn't say it, I just 100% ed it, but no worries. 

I assume 100% it means you 100% agree with it, as if you said it.  So I am curious about your thoughts on it. 
 

I have the impression you still believe people can be influenced by the spirit where from what Teancum has said he doesn’t believe any spirit interacts with anyone in that fashion, though I may have misunderstood him, but my impression is he is a skeptical agnostic.   Asking him to imagine those possibilities would be more for him like asking him to imagine King Arthur was a feminist, I imagine.  I am interested to hear from someone who believes there is likely a spirit of some sort (since you are open to mediums), but appears to put limits on what a/the spirit will do. 

Quote

there is likely no spirit telling them to do much of anything.

 

Edited November 25, 2021 by Calm