Alam 14:11 - modern likening of the doctrines taught in this verse?

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

I assume 100% it means you 100% agree with it, as if you said it.  So I am curious about your thoughts on it. 
 

I have the impression you still believe people can be influenced by the spirit where from what Teancum has said he doesn’t believe any spirit interacts with anyone in that fashion, though I may have misunderstood him, but my impression is he is a skeptical agnostic.   Asking him to imagine those possibilities would be more for him like asking him to imagine King Arthur was a feminist, I imagine.  I am interested to hear from someone who believes there is likely a spirit of some sort (since you are open to mediums), but appears to put limits on what a/the spirit will do. 

 

I cherry picked out things, sorry about that. I do believe in a God. But don't trust men or women that say God told them to do something if that something is wrong. 

[The Nehor]

On 11/22/2021 at 11:02 AM, Mark Beesley said:

Do you think the Spirit prompted Teancum to kill Ammoron? I've always had a problem with that slaying as it denied Ammoron the opportunity to gain entrance into Valhalla. 😇

Oddly Teancum is never described as being faithful or devoted to God. When he dies he is remembered as a “friend of liberty”. I am also not convinced that going out on an assassination mission ‘in anger’ is a good idea. I like the guy but he is not portrayed as devoted to God. When I think of that war and those immediately before it I put Moroni as the four-star general, Lehi as leader of the elite troops, and Teancum running the Special Forces.

[Teancum]

On 11/24/2021 at 10:53 PM, Calm said:

I assume 100% it means you 100% agree with it, as if you said it.  So I am curious about your thoughts on it. 
 

I have the impression you still believe people can be influenced by the spirit where from what Teancum has said he doesn’t believe any spirit interacts with anyone in that fashion, though I may have misunderstood him, but my impression is he is a skeptical agnostic.   Asking him to imagine those possibilities would be more for him like asking him to imagine King Arthur was a feminist, I imagine.  I am interested to hear from someone who believes there is likely a spirit of some sort (since you are open to mediums), but appears to put limits on what a/the spirit will do. 

 

I am open to the influence of some higher power but yes at this point very skeptical. If there is a God I would lean towards a diet type of God.

[CV75]

On 11/24/2021 at 6:05 PM, Teancum said:

GIven how you answered it seems it was not silly at all.

I think it would be wonderful if people could  come to the understanding that there is likely no spirit telling them to do much of anything.

It would seem here that you let your deeper belief squeeze out of a relatively superficial skepticism: from this statement, you let it slip that there is a likelihood that there is a spirit telling them to do some things.

You evidently don't understand the difference between killing and murdering someone -- especially when treating the topic so seriously . 

[Teancum]

4 hours ago, CV75 said:

It would seem here that you let your deeper belief squeeze out of a relatively superficial skepticism: from this statement, you let it slip that there is a likelihood that there is a spirit telling them to do some things.

You evidently don't understand the difference between killing and murdering someone -- especially when treating the topic so seriously . 

simply put I don't think there is a God type being that directs humans to kill someone.

[CV75]

18 minutes ago, Teancum said:

simply put I don't think there is a God type being that directs humans to kill someone.

That is nice.

Edited November 26, 2021 by CV75

[Teancum]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

That is nice.

Yes it is. And rational.  Unlike your approach.

[Kenngo1969]

9 hours ago, Teancum said:

I am open to the influence of some higher power but yes at this point very skeptical. If there is a God I would lean towards a diet type of God. [sic]

Deist, you mean?

"Pat, is there an 's'?"    

And now, since you lack, completely, any semblance of a sense of humor regarding anything I say, you may go back to hating me!   Sorry for the diversion!

[Scott Lloyd]

18 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Deist, you mean?

"Pat, is there an 's'?"    

And now, since you lack, completely, any semblance of a sense of humor regarding anything I say, you may go back to hating me!   Sorry for the diversion!

It’s the newest food fad. We’ve had the Atkins diet, the South Beach diet, the Paleo diet, the keto diet, and now the God diet. 

Edited November 26, 2021 by Scott Lloyd

[strappinglad]

Speeding and running red lights are ' wrong ' yet society allows ambulances and police and even random citizens  to do so given certain circumstances. 

Killing a human is wrong but it is allowed during war and even praised , yet even in war there are ' crimes against humanity ' that are condemned.

What " Spirit " whispered to Stalin or Mao or Pol  Pot to do the things they did? The question is asked , If you could time travel and return to kill one of these monsters, would you ??? 

[Chum]

41 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

Speeding and running red lights are ' wrong '

Given that laws are continually created in response to inappropriate agendas (eg:major corporate campaign donors), I find it problematic to automatically equate laws with morality. Otherwise, morality is purchased.

[Kenngo1969]

16 hours ago, strappinglad said:

Speeding and running red lights are ' wrong ' yet society allows ambulances and police and even random citizens  to do so given certain circumstances. 

Killing a human is wrong but it is allowed during war and even praised , yet even in war there are ' crimes against humanity ' that are condemned.

What " Spirit " whispered to Stalin or Mao or Pol  Pot to do the things they did? The question is asked , If you could time travel and return to kill one of these monsters, would you ??? [Emphasis by Kenngo1969]

Speaking of general principles and not of specific circumstances*, I might.  If I thought that this life were the end-all-and-the-be-all of existence, I might, but if I thought that, I might screw up my own paradigm, because the only Being capable of possessing such a power is a God, and if I thought that such a God existed, why would I think that this life is the end-all-and-the-be-all of existence? 

In the paradigm to which I do hew (as do many of us here), this life is not the end-all-and-the-be-all of existence because there is a life to come after this one, in which all of us, from the very worst of us to the very best of us will be judged, and will be rewarded according to the deeds we have done in this life.  Also in the paradigm to which I hew (as do many of us here), I believe "every man receiveth wages of him who he listeth to obey."  Alma 3:26-27.

*While, generally, I believe that God favors prolonging humanity's agency even when we do horrible things to our fellow men and women, there are exceptions (e.g., Nephi's slaying of Laban).

 

[Teancum]

On 11/26/2021 at 5:36 PM, Kenngo1969 said:

Deist, you mean?

Yes sorry. Deist.

On 11/26/2021 at 5:36 PM, Kenngo1969 said:

"Pat, is there an 's'?"    

And now, since you lack, completely, any semblance of a sense of humor regarding anything I say, you may go back to hating me!   Sorry for the diversion!

I don't hate you.

[Kenngo1969]

2 hours ago, Teancum said:

Yes sorry. Deist.

You're welcome.  I'm glad I could help.  

2 hours ago, Teancum said:

I don't hate you.

That's good to know.  I can cross at least one person off of what, I'm sure, is a very long list.  I appreciate that.  (Every little bit helps! ) Having said that, though, it does seem as though you impute hatred of you to your interlocutors based simply on differing worldviews and the disagreements that arise therefrom.  Disagreement =/= Hatred.

[Teancum]

18 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

You're welcome.  I'm glad I could help.  

That's good to know.  I can cross at least one person off of what, I'm sure, is a very long list.  I appreciate that.  (Every little bit helps! ) Having said that, though, it does seem as though you impute hatred of you to your interlocutors based simply on differing worldviews and the disagreements that arise therefrom.  Disagreement =/= Hatred.

I don't think so.  Can you point out where I had said those who disagree with me hate me?

[Islander]

On 11/24/2021 at 7:30 AM, Navidad said:

Are you sure you're not a Mennonite?

I am most certainly not. I understand they do not take converts easily, especially of other racial persuasions. 😃

[Navidad]

8 hours ago, Islander said:

I am most certainly not. I understand they do not take converts easily, especially of other racial persuasions. 😃

Not sure what you mean by this, but let me give you some data points.  1. There are more non-Anglo Mennonites in the world than Anglo. 2. There are more Mennonites on the African continent than in Canada and the United States combined. 3. The fastest growing Mennonite population in one country is in Ethiopia. 4. The largest Mennonite church in the world is in Ethiopia. 5. The Indonesian, Indian, and Vietnamese Mennonite populations are growing rapidly. 6. Only three of the ten countries with the largest Mennonite populations are majority Anglo. Take care!

[Islander]

11 hours ago, Navidad said:

Not sure what you mean by this, but let me give you some data points.  1. There are more non-Anglo Mennonites in the world than Anglo. 2. There are more Mennonites on the African continent than in Canada and the United States combined. 3. The fastest growing Mennonite population in one country is in Ethiopia. 4. The largest Mennonite church in the world is in Ethiopia. 5. The Indonesian, Indian, and Vietnamese Mennonite populations are growing rapidly. 6. Only three of the ten countries with the largest Mennonite populations are majority Anglo. Take care!

My apologies. I was being facetious in a way. I really have no ideas as to why you thought/wonder I was Mennonite. I assumed you were being sarcastic so I replied in kind. 

I worked for a number of years as a volunteer at the Omaha Rescue Mission  where I worked side by side  a large number of Mennonites almost weekly. They are part of the "reformed" branch so they interact with the community more extensively than some of the more traditional branches. I spoke at length with some of them in regards to many issues, the racial make up of their church community. They did informed me of the growing communities outside the US, including Africa and Asia. These new converts are part and the result of their humanitarian efforts in those regions starting in the 1920's. The Church is open to expansion among other peoples, indeed. But, in general and as far as those brethren that I spoke with, they were not aware  of members of other racial makeups being part of their local congregations. They could not elaborate about whether this was just incidental or intentional. I took their observations at face value. One thing was clear, new converts (regardless of race) to the local congregations were extremely rare. They knew of none in recent history at the time of our conversation. That was 3 years ago and since we have moved away from NE.

But, all of the above is just a tangent from the response to the OP, right? Abd I still don't know why you thought I was a Mennonite.  

[Navidad]

12 hours ago, Islander said:

My apologies. I was being facetious in a way. I really have no ideas as to why you thought/wonder I was Mennonite. I assumed you were being sarcastic so I replied in kind. 

I worked for a number of years as a volunteer at the Omaha Rescue Mission  where I worked side by side  a large number of Mennonites almost weekly. They are part of the "reformed" branch so they interact with the community more extensively than some of the more traditional branches. I spoke at length with some of them in regards to many issues, the racial make up of their church community. They did informed me of the growing communities outside the US, including Africa and Asia. These new converts are part and the result of their humanitarian efforts in those regions starting in the 1920's. The Church is open to expansion among other peoples, indeed. But, in general and as far as those brethren that I spoke with, they were not aware  of members of other racial makeups being part of their local congregations. They could not elaborate about whether this was just incidental or intentional. I took their observations at face value. One thing was clear, new converts (regardless of race) to the local congregations were extremely rare. They knew of none in recent history at the time of our conversation. That was 3 years ago and since we have moved away from NE.

But, all of the above is just a tangent from the response to the OP, right? Abd I still don't know why you thought I was a Mennonite.  

Hi Islander: My comment to you was a compliment. I thought this reply was very Mennonitish. The focus on enduring, not retaliating, going the extra mile, loving your enemies, not rendering evil for evil, etc. are all things strongly emphasized in the Mennonite Church. - They represent our core values and are often emphasized in a way that is rarely emphasized in other religious groups. If Mennonites have a core theological emphasis, you have just nailed it. It was the opposite of sarcastic - it was the highest form of a  compliment I could offer you for your commitment to peace, non-resistance, compassion, and social justice. If you attended a Mennonite church you would probably hear the same articulated from the pulpit almost every week in one way or another.

Of course there are closed Mennonite communities, just as there are closed LDS communities. I live near several of them. My home church in Pennsylvania was probably 100% Anglo when I was a boy. Today that same church is probably 40% non-Anglo with that population increasing rapidly. And that is in the heart of Pennsylvania Dutch country! My best wishes to you!

At the end, the explicit reason for the injury does not matter. "...And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain." Met. 5:40-41  The historical context here is quite telling. A roman soldier could compel any passer by to render "service to the empire" and command them to carry a load, move stones from the road or whatever else it was required and the Jewish people were forced to comply.

What is clear from scripture (although not very well articulated in the American church) is that we are to endure and not retaliate because of our injury. Why? Because we aspire to be imitators of God who loves His enemies. This capacity is not innate to us. The "natural man" wants to retaliate, strike back and seek retribution. But the Lord insist in being filled with His love that we may endure in faith and humility, without ill-will. He provides this love to us if we ask: "Wherefore, my beloved brethren, pray unto the Father with all the energy of heart, that ye may be filled with this love, which he hath bestowed upon all who are true followers of his Son, Jesus Christ; that ye may become the sons of God..." Moroni 7:48

Peter's admonition here is also quite explicit: "Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous: Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing." 1 Pet. 3:8-9

Again, I do not remember ever hearing this articulated from the pulpit in my 20+ years of church membership but the scriptures are clear on the subject.

Edited November 30, 2021 by Navidad

[Islander]

16 hours ago, Navidad said:

Hi Islander: My comment to you was a compliment. I thought this reply was very Mennonitish. The focus on enduring, not retaliating, going the extra mile, loving your enemies, not rendering evil for evil, etc. are all things strongly emphasized in the Mennonite Church. - They represent our core values and are often emphasized in a way that is rarely emphasized in other religious groups. If Mennonites have a core theological emphasis, you have just nailed it. It was the opposite of sarcastic - it was the highest form of a  compliment I could offer you for your commitment to peace, non-resistance, compassion, and social justice. If you attended a Mennonite church you would probably hear the same articulated from the pulpit almost every week in one way or another.
 

Thank you for the compliment, brother. I just pointed to the scriptures as the source of my statements. It is unfortunate that such fairly evident truths are not more frequently articulated in the church.

Thank you for your insights.