Scott Lloyd Posted October 6, 2021 Author Posted October 6, 2021 23 hours ago, bluebell said: It could, but I don't know that it's a given. What about the sons of perdition? Are they exempt from the "every knee shall bow" stuff? I responded above to the same question from Calm.
Scott Lloyd Posted October 6, 2021 Author Posted October 6, 2021 23 hours ago, bluebell said: From what I've read, they acknowledge Him as the Savior and hate Him anyway. I don’t think they acknowledge Him as THEIR Savior. He in fact is not. The “every knee shall bow” expression applies to those whom Christ has in fact saved. Which, in the end, will include everyone EXCEPT the sons of perdition. 1
The Nehor Posted October 6, 2021 Posted October 6, 2021 23 hours ago, california boy said: It is a little scary thinking that the people living on the earth now were the best of God's children. Makes you wonder what earth would have been like if Lucifer had not led a third of the worst spirits away from earth. The best assigned to this world and we are told this is the worst world. From this it follows that the elect are basically the equivalent of honor students in a remedial school. 1
rongo Posted October 6, 2021 Posted October 6, 2021 (edited) 18 minutes ago, The Nehor said: The best assigned to this world and we are told this is the worst world. From this it follows that the elect are basically the equivalent of honor students in a remedial school. Open CFR (not a gauntlet thrown down to you personally) on this. A lot of people say or think this, but I've never seen myself where this idea comes from from Joseph Smith and his successors. If anything, there is the Brigham Young school of thought where every earth has its savior and tempter. Interested in any sources anyone knows of. ETA: If there are multiple saviors for different worlds (firstborn spirit sons of different wives, under the Orson Pratt/Brigham Young idea), then it seems probably that each world is probably about like all of the others, on average. Edited October 6, 2021 by rongo 1
pogi Posted October 6, 2021 Posted October 6, 2021 (edited) 47 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: The “every knee shall bow” expression applies to those whom Christ has in fact saved. I don't know if that is true. This passage seems to suggest otherwise: Quote so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow — in heaven and on earth and under the earth Philippians 2:10 I like how the following translation from the Amplified Bible suggests that it will be a bow of submission - which I suspect will either be out of reverence, or in the case of the sons of perdition out of defeat Quote so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW [in submission], of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 47 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Which, in the end, will include everyone EXCEPT the sons of perdition. Because the atonement applies to the sons of perdition too, and they will indeed be "saved" via the atonement of Christ from physical death and resurrected with perfectly functioning knees. Their very knees attest to the fact that he is the Christ. I suspect even those knees, which they will only have because Jesus is the Christ, will be bent in acknowledgment of at least that fact as they come before him to be judged. I suspect that when one encounters the Christ face to face to be judged in their resurrected bodies, experiencing the gaze of the all seeing eye deep into their cores where no untruth or lie can hide, there will be no possible way to deny the fact that he is the Christ. They will know it, and Christ will see that in them, and there will be no way to hide or deny that fact, and they will bow in submission to the Christ (either out of defeat or worship/reverence) and acknowledge Him. Edited October 6, 2021 by pogi 1
Scott Lloyd Posted October 6, 2021 Author Posted October 6, 2021 (edited) 20 minutes ago, pogi said: I don't know if that is true. This passage seems to suggest otherwise: Because the atonement applies to the sons of perdition too, and they will indeed be "saved" via the atonement of Christ from physical death and resurrected with perfectly functioning knees. Their very knees attest to the fact that he is the Christ. I suspect even those knees, which they will only have because Jesus is the Christ, will be bent in acknowledgment of at least that fact as they come before him to be judged. I suspect that when one encounters the Christ face to face to be judged in their resurrected bodies, experiencing the gaze of the all seeing eye deep into their cores where no untruth or lie can hide, there will be no possible way to deny the fact that he is the Christ. They will know it, and Christ will see that in them, and there will be no way to hide or deny that fact. The idea that the Atonement benefits sons of perdition is foreign to everything authoritative I have ever heard or read on the subject. See here: https://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Sons_of_Perdition Edited October 6, 2021 by Scott Lloyd
pogi Posted October 6, 2021 Posted October 6, 2021 (edited) 42 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: The idea that the Atonement benefits sins of perdition is foreign to everything authoritative I have ever heard or read on the subject. How a physical body might "benefit" (not a word I used) the sons of perdition, I can't say. There is no denying the authoritative scriptures and statements that they will be "saved' from physical death however. Christ overcame physical death for all, not just those saved from spiritual death. I know that this concept is not foreign to you. Mosiah 16 talks about a "resurrections of endless damnation". No living soul born into the second escape can escape the physically saving effects of the atonement via resurrection. And there is this authoritative statement too: Quote The followers of Satan who will suffer with him in eternity. Sons of perdition include (1) those who followed Satan and were cast out of heaven for rebellion during premortality and (2) those who were permitted to be born to this world with physical bodies but then served Satan and turned utterly against God. Those in this second group will be resurrected from the dead but will not be redeemed from the second (spiritual) death and cannot dwell in a kingdom of glory (D&C 88:32, 35). https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/gs/sons-of-perdition?lang=eng Even the sons of perdition cannot escape the saving effects of the atonement. They will be powerless to deny this and will bow in submission of defeat that he is the Christ. Edited October 6, 2021 by pogi 1
Ginger Snaps Posted October 7, 2021 Posted October 7, 2021 On 10/5/2021 at 11:58 AM, bluebell said: From what I've read, they acknowledge Him as the Savior and hate Him anyway. Judas called Jesus “Master” and kissed him as he was betraying him. I can see how someone could bow/confess in mockery. Those who choose perdition reject the gift Christ offers. They are, in essence, refusing to be saved. As for what that looks like afterwards, it’s all speculation. 2
Bernard Gui Posted October 7, 2021 Posted October 7, 2021 On 10/3/2021 at 1:00 PM, Scott Lloyd said: I don’t see how it would be otherwise. Confessing that Jesus is Christ would of necessity entail acknowledgement that His laws and commandments are just and, to the extent that our behavior and attitudes are out of harmony with them, we need to change. I believe we will bow the knee and confess because of love, not fear…his for us and ours for him. 1
Calm Posted October 7, 2021 Posted October 7, 2021 (edited) 42 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: I believe we will bow the knee and confess because of love, not fear…his for us and ours for him. Do you believe all who will bow and confess will do it out of love? I think it would be wonderful if so. It is quite contrary to what happens in mortality, but we won’t be mortal any more, so who knows. Edited October 7, 2021 by Calm
CV75 Posted October 7, 2021 Posted October 7, 2021 8 hours ago, Calm said: Do you believe all who will bow and confess will do it out of love? I think it would be wonderful if so. It is quite contrary to what happens in mortality, but we won’t be mortal any more, so who knows. I was thinking about this the other day, about developing unconditional love towards Christ (and by extension everyone) as well as an unconditional testimony in order to stay on the straight and narrow path. I may have mentioned it, that I can see faith in Christ, hope in Christ, and charity being spiritual gifts to everyone whether they are on the covenant path or not, simply as a matter of general Christian principle. But faith in Christ also leads to repentance, baptism (in water and by fire), enduring to the end, etc. (which is also often taken as a general, non-denominational Christian principle), which can enjoy the added fulness of formal, divine authority (3 Nephi 11:21 and 12:1).
Scott Lloyd Posted October 7, 2021 Author Posted October 7, 2021 22 hours ago, pogi said: How a physical body might "benefit" (not a word I used) the sons of perdition, I can't say. There is no denying the authoritative scriptures and statements that they will be "saved' from physical death however. Christ overcame physical death for all, not just those saved from spiritual death. I know that this concept is not foreign to you. Mosiah 16 talks about a "resurrections of endless damnation". No living soul born into the second escape can escape the physically saving effects of the atonement via resurrection. And there is this authoritative statement too: Even the sons of perdition cannot escape the saving effects of the atonement. They will be powerless to deny this and will bow in submission of defeat that he is the Christ. Universal though it be, it’s difficult for me to view resurrection as salvation unless it is accompanied by the cleansing power of the Atonement.
pogi Posted October 7, 2021 Posted October 7, 2021 21 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Universal though it be, it’s difficult for me to view resurrection as salvation unless it is accompanied by the cleansing power of the Atonement. It is the official language of the church: Quote Salvation from Physical Death. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/salvation?lang=eng
Scott Lloyd Posted October 7, 2021 Author Posted October 7, 2021 27 minutes ago, pogi said: It is the official language of the church: Here, there is distinction drawn between “salvation from physical death” and other forms of salvation, namely “salvation from sin,” “salvation from ignorance,” and “salvation from the second death.” It the latter three forms — incorporating, of course, the first — that I typically think of as salvation. Frankly, the first one listed here without the latter three holds no appeal for me.
pogi Posted October 7, 2021 Posted October 7, 2021 (edited) 39 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: It the latter three forms — incorporating, of course, the first — that I typically think of as salvation. The gospel suggests it is a term that can be used, and is indeed applied via the atonement, more broadly than that. 39 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Frankly, the first one listed here without the latter three holds no appeal for me. Therefore, what? What appeals to you is not in question. Edited October 7, 2021 by pogi
Bernard Gui Posted October 8, 2021 Posted October 8, 2021 20 hours ago, Calm said: Do you believe all who will bow and confess will do it out of love? I think it would be wonderful if so. It is quite contrary to what happens in mortality, but we won’t be mortal any more, so who knows. Yes, I believe it will be out of love. We will see through the glass clearly and the love of God will be irresistible. 2
pogi Posted October 8, 2021 Posted October 8, 2021 (edited) 15 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: Yes, I believe it will be out of love. We will see through the glass clearly and the love of God will be irresistible. I don't know if it is true that the absence of a veil will cause irresistible feelings of love for God from all. For some, I think it will cause absolute feelings of dread/shame to come over them like lakes of fire and brimstone - wishing that the mountains could hide them from the all seeing gaze of God. Lucifer and the demons see through the glass clearly and have no veil, for example. I don't think they have an irresistible "love" of God. For many, I think it will be out of irresistible love. For many others, I think it will be out of irresistible submission of defeat as they are forced to stand before him to be judged - probably against their will. That's my take anyway. Edited October 8, 2021 by pogi
Bernard Gui Posted October 8, 2021 Posted October 8, 2021 (edited) 18 hours ago, pogi said: I don't know if it is true that the absence of a veil will cause irresistible feelings of love for God from all. For some, I think it will cause absolute feelings of dread/shame to come over them like lakes of fire and brimstone - wishing that the mountains could hide them from the all seeing gaze of God. Lucifer and the demons see through the glass clearly and have no veil, for example. I don't think they have an irresistible "love" of God. For many, I think it will be out of irresistible love. For many others, I think it will be out of irresistible submission of defeat as they are forced to stand before him to be judged - probably against their will. That's my take anyway. I think any shame we have will be replaced by the eternal love of God, as in the parable of the prodigal son. I have said nothing about Lucifer and his followers. They are a special case. Edited October 9, 2021 by Bernard Gui 2
The Nehor Posted October 9, 2021 Posted October 9, 2021 On 10/6/2021 at 12:34 PM, rongo said: Open CFR (not a gauntlet thrown down to you personally) on this. A lot of people say or think this, but I've never seen myself where this idea comes from from Joseph Smith and his successors. If anything, there is the Brigham Young school of thought where every earth has its savior and tempter. Interested in any sources anyone knows of. ETA: If there are multiple saviors for different worlds (firstborn spirit sons of different wives, under the Orson Pratt/Brigham Young idea), then it seems probably that each world is probably about like all of the others, on average. It comes from a possible interpretation in the Book of Moses where Enoch sees God weeping and he talks about out of all the things God created there is no wickedness like here. There are alternative readings of this of course. It would be similar to other instances of divine prudence for God not to point out too strongly how bad we are to avoid discouragement. Why not let the kids think they are the ‘best of the best’ if it inspires them to greatness? 1
longview Posted October 14, 2021 Posted October 14, 2021 On 10/6/2021 at 11:51 AM, Scott Lloyd said: The idea that the Atonement benefits sons of perdition is foreign to everything authoritative I have ever heard or read on the subject. See here: https://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Sons_of_Perdition From your link, did you read the paragraphs about Cain ruling over Lucifer? Quote Those who become sons of perdition while in mortality will be resurrected with unglorified physical bodies and "rise to the damnation of their own filthiness" (TPJS, p. 361). Cain, thus resurrected, will then rule over the unembodied Lucifer (Moses 5:23; MD, p. 109). It has been suggested that in the absence of the life-sustaining powers of God's Spirit, sons of perdition will eventually become disorganized and return to "native element" (JD 1:349-52; 5:271; 7:358-59). However, scripture declares that "the soul can never die" (Alma 12:20) and that in the Resurrection the spirit and the body are united "never to be divided" (Alma 11:45; cf. 12:18; D&C 93:33). The ultimate fate of sons of perdition will be made known only to those who are partakers thereof and will not be definitely revealed until the last judgment (D&C 29:27-30;43:33;76:43-48; TPJS, p. 24).
bOObOO Posted October 14, 2021 Posted October 14, 2021 On 10/2/2021 at 10:06 AM, Scott Lloyd said: Elder D. Todd Christofferson, in his conference address, just drew an important distinction: God’s love is unconditional, but that does not mean His blessings and salvation are unconditional. True hat God's love being unconditional doesn't mean God's blessings are unconditional. Anyone who understands English can see that those words on both sides of the equation are not equal and don't mean the same thing. Being pedantic is sometimes good, though. Yes.
Olmec Donald Posted October 16, 2021 Posted October 16, 2021 On 10/7/2021 at 12:00 AM, Bernard Gui said: I believe we will bow the knee and confess because of love, not fear…his for us and ours for him. I agree. On 10/7/2021 at 8:51 PM, Bernard Gui said: We will see through the glass clearly and the love of God will be irresistible. Perhaps "the veil" is not primarily that we cannot remember what was before we got here; rather, that we cannot see what IS right now. Once the barriers to the awareness of God's love have been removed, all fear is cast out. And to a certain extent that is possible in this life. On 10/8/2021 at 1:28 PM, Bernard Gui said: I think any shame we have will be replaced by the eternal love of God, as in the parable of the prodigal son. This son of a loving Father was filled with shame, thinking he had squandered his Father's treasure. What he did not understand was, HE was his Father's treasure. I think that parable is about each of us, including the least of us: "The worth of souls is great", not "the worth of some souls is great." 1
Bernard Gui Posted October 16, 2021 Posted October 16, 2021 (edited) 4 hours ago, Olmec Donald said: I agree. Perhaps "the veil" is not primarily that we cannot remember what was before we got here; rather, that we cannot see what IS right now. Once the barriers to the awareness of God's love have been removed, all fear is cast out. And to a certain extent that is possible in this life. This son of a loving Father was filled with shame, thinking he had squandered his Father's treasure. What he did not understand was, HE was his Father's treasure. I think that parable is about each of us, including the least of us: "The worth of souls is great", not "the worth of some souls is great." I can’t tell if you are agreeing or disagreeing with my thoughts or just expanding on them. Edited October 16, 2021 by Bernard Gui
Olmec Donald Posted October 16, 2021 Posted October 16, 2021 33 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: I can’t tell if you are agreeing or disagreeing with my thoughts or just expanding on them. I am agreeing with you. Sorry that was unclear.
Bernard Gui Posted October 19, 2021 Posted October 19, 2021 On 10/16/2021 at 7:28 AM, Olmec Donald said: I am agreeing with you. Sorry that was unclear. Thanks! 1
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