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19 minutes ago, mburgess1982 said:

Or how about forcing masks on an entire generation including children in schools creating a massive amount of psychological damage we haven't even begun to see play out

This is literally an imagined parade of horror. It's the end product of "We want to politicize mask wearing. Drink 12 Red Bulls and come up with something to own the libs. If it terrorizes elementary school teachers, more the better".

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10 minutes ago, Chum said:

My mood changes a lot. Covid doesn't care.

One day, pandemic historians will track down the original butt this was pulled out of.

I mean anti-vaxers effectively shuttering their employer by introducing Covid into the workplace. My day job is mitigating this. Covid-nurturing talking points are costing businesses tons of revenue and lost productivity.

Again it is not the actual virus that is shuttering businesses but rather Governments imposing draconian lockdowns and tyrannical policies that are doing the real damage. 

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https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0251373

Quote

In March 2020, Italy shut down operations in selected sectors of its economy. Using a difference-in-differences approach, we find that municipalities with higher exposure to closed sectors experienced subsequently lower mortality rates. The implied life savings exceed 9,400 people over a period of less than a month. We also find that business closures exhibited rapidly diminishing returns and had large effects outside the closed businesses themselves, including spillovers to other municipalities. Overall, the results suggest business shutdowns are effective, but should be selectively implemented and centrally coordinated

 

Edited by Calm
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50 minutes ago, mburgess1982 said:

Remember this one? 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_swine_flu_pandemic

My parents lived through this one. Estimated that it killed between 1-4 million people. I asked them about it, they hadn't heard of it 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong_flu

2009 swine flu pandemic actually did cause some lockdowns.  Schools were shut down, businesses shut down, people wore masks, etc.  It also only had about half a million deaths world wide (lab confirmed is on 18,449 deaths).

Hong Kong flu had a vaccine published within 4 months (!).  It didn't really become pandemic in the Northern Hemisphere until around the Christmas break which allowed people to not spread it at school or work since they were mostly at home.  And by January, vaccines were available.  The world was a lot less connected (1968) and only reached the US because of returning Vietnam vets.  It only killed about 100,000 people in the US.

Covid-19 has killed over 600,000 deaths in the US.  Worldwide, it is 4.5 million.  Most likely, these deaths are actually undercounted because we know that we have extra deaths than expected in 2020 and 2021.

I think the Covid-19 pandemic is a lot worse than those other pandemics.

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26 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I am concerned about societies surrendering too much personal autonomy and liberty.

I am concerned that governments are becoming too authoritarian, too severe, and too willing to expand their authority at the expense of individual liberty.

I am concerned that such expansions of governmental authority are being presented as being responsive to emergent conditions, but may end up being permanent (not unlike the Patriot Act).

I am concerned at the contempt and animosity expressed towards those who are questioning and challenging governmental actions. 

Thanks,

-Smac

All these concerns would go away if we could just create doubt and get people to believe that Covid is not all that bad.  If we can successfully downplay the virus, create doubt in PCR test results and thus positivity rates, death rates, and pretend like hospitals/people are not really in crisis, then mandates and lock-downs, etc. would come off as excessive overreach and unjustifiable and all our concerns would go away.

Whether or not you see yourself playing that game, that is the game that is being played in all the articles you post.  

Giving this virus the respect it has earned doesn't need to diminish from your concerns.  

It is as if people see a scale with the virus on one side and liberty on the other.   If we give too much weight to the virus, then liberty may be threatened - hence the downplaying of the virus.  There may be some truth to that.  I think we can all agree that at some point government intervention would be justified in a terrible enough scenario.  So, people are hedging up their liberty by creating doubt in the virus, but I am afraid it is coming at a terrible cost. 

 

 

 

 

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22 minutes ago, mburgess1982 said:

Again it is not the actual virus that is shuttering businesses but rather Governments imposing draconian lockdowns and tyrannical policies that are doing the real damage. 

Are you going to keep avoiding my questions?  I answered your.  It is your turn. 

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39 minutes ago, mburgess1982 said:

Or how about forcing masks on an entire generation including children in schools creating a massive amount of psychological damage we haven't even begun to see play out

This isn't the first time we've had masks on children.  Children wore masks during the Spanish Flu, the Hong Kong Flu, and the Avian Flu.  During the Polio pandemic, children were taken out of class and not even taught, for fear of catching polio.  I'm pretty certain that if children could survive through that, they can survive through this.

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29 minutes ago, webbles said:

Do you realize that polio have roughly the same survival rate?  Do you think what the population and government did during the polio vaccination was ok?  What if polio had been transmitted airborne (like covid-19), do you think they should have been even more draconic back then?

Its very hard to justify the insanity we are experiencing now by trying to compare it to Polio, although the Polio fiasco was pretty bad too as they injected millions of people with contaminated vaccines containing cancer causing sv40

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10472327/

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10 minutes ago, webbles said:

2009 swine flu pandemic actually did cause some lockdowns.  Schools were shut down, businesses shut down, people wore masks, etc.  It also only had about half a million deaths world wide (lab confirmed is on 18,449 deaths).

Hong Kong flu had a vaccine published within 4 months (!).  It didn't really become pandemic in the Northern Hemisphere until around the Christmas break which allowed people to not spread it at school or work since they were mostly at home.  And by January, vaccines were available.  The world was a lot less connected (1968) and only reached the US because of returning Vietnam vets.  It only killed about 100,000 people in the US.

Covid-19 has killed over 600,000 deaths in the US.  Worldwide, it is 4.5 million.  Most likely, these deaths are actually undercounted because we know that we have extra deaths than expected in 2020 and 2021.

I think the Covid-19 pandemic is a lot worse than those other pandemics.

The 2009 Swine flu fiasco seemed to have been a trial run for the Covid "Pandemic". They were called out by the council of Europe and it was deemed "One of the greatest medical scandals of the century". They did it before but they would never try it again right? Same people, same strategy, except this time they have the PCR test and a much much larger social media audience to push propaganda to

They published this in Forbes in 2010, but it was pulled off their site in 2020, gee I wonder why lol
https://web.archive.org/web/20201011163656if_/https://www.forbes.com/2010/02/05/world-health-organization-swine-flu-pandemic-opinions-contributors-michael-fumento.html
 

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12 minutes ago, webbles said:

This isn't the first time we've had masks on children.  Children wore masks during the Spanish Flu, the Hong Kong Flu, and the Avian Flu.  During the Polio pandemic, children were taken out of class and not even taught, for fear of catching polio.  I'm pretty certain that if children could survive through that, they can survive through this.

Never before have we forced kids to wear masks all day long in school for an indefinite amount of time, especially for a virus that DOES NOT post a risk to them, unlike Polio which actually did affect kids. If the Sars Covi2 virus was actually dangerous they probably wouldn't even be in school in the first place
 

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19 minutes ago, pogi said:

Are you going to keep avoiding my questions?  I answered your.  It is your turn. 

You want me to convince you that there are secret combinations happening in our day just as in the times of the Book of Mormon which was given to us in our day to warn us about this? It's literally all around us, if people can't see it by now 18 months into this thing they probably aren't going to see it 

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28 minutes ago, mburgess1982 said:

You want me to convince you that there are secret combinations happening in our day just as in the times of the Book of Mormon which was given to us in our day to warn us about this? It's literally all around us, if people can't see it by now 18 months into this thing they probably aren't going to see it 

No, I want you to convince me that there is a secret combination of Satanic GMO's trying to get us all to wear masks.  I want to know what their motive is, and I want to know how a group of GMO's could control the reporting systems of local hospitals, local and world governments.  A good conspiracy theory at least attempts some explanations and evidence.  I need something here.  Apparently you suggest that their power is wielded through fear of their employees being fired.  Does that sound truly reasonable to you? 

I also want to know how our prophets could be so easily deceived by this Satanic GMO secret combination leading the world astray...  

You said that you would answer my questions if I answer yours (despite the fact that I asked mine first).  How do you expect us to take you seriously if you continue to dodge?  Those are some pretty hefty allegations that deserve some explanations.  If Covid deserves scrutiny, why don't your conspiracy theories deserve the same scrutiny? 

The fact that there are secret combinations is not evidence that this is one of them, or that our prophets are deceived. 

Edited by pogi
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1 hour ago, Chum said:

We are asking you to vet info.

Um, that was the entire point of my post.

1 hour ago, Chum said:

It is interesting that you equate vetting with silencing here. It's as if you are reacting to the risk of what might happen to debunked info.

Not at all.

Thanks,

-Smac

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1 hour ago, mburgess1982 said:

All for a Virus with a 99.8% survival rate

You say that as if that is supposed to comfort me.  But that number terrifies me.  It is too low of a survival rate.

Covid-19 has an R value greater than 1, meaning it will spread to everyone if left unchecked.  Delta currently has an R value estimated at 5-9!  That means that 1 infected person will spread to 5-9 people.  We also know of re-infections so we aren't even sure if herd immunity is possible.  But let's give a liberal value and say that we can achieve herd immunity at 80%.

There are 7.8 billion people on the earth (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population).  Herd immunity will be achieved when 80% are infected, which is 6.24 billion people.  With a survival rate of 99.8%, that means that we'll have 12,480,000 deaths!

You really want to just let this disease run unchecked and kill over 12 million people?  And that doesn't take into the account that our hospital system is not meant to handle that many deaths and sick people.  Many of the 3rd world countries will have a lot more deaths because their hospital systems will be swamped and they'll have secondary deaths.

99.8% is not a great survival rate for a disease that will spread to everyone.

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1 hour ago, mburgess1982 said:

Changes that keep people alive? Are you serious?

You mean like lockdowns imposed by Governments around the world that caused an exponential amount of more deaths and suffering than they prevented by bankrupting people and businesses, causing mass mounts of hopelessness and suicides, spiking alcoholism and domestic abuse, starvation in 3rd world countries, massive amounts of missed surgeries and procedures due to closed hospitals etc etc

Or how about forcing masks on an entire generation including children in schools creating a massive amount of psychological damage we haven't even begun to see play out

Or how about coercing people into taking a vaccine by threatening their jobs and livelihoods if they don't take it despite the fact that so many already have natural immunity that is being completely ignored

Or how about vaccine passports that where I live are putting massive pressure on already suffering businesses and furthering a divide among the people by creating a two tiered society

I could go on and on. 

All for a Virus with a 99.8% survival rate

I find it odd that so many aren't able to figure THIS out

Lots of lies in there.

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26 minutes ago, mburgess1982 said:

Never before have we forced kids to wear masks all day long in school for an indefinite amount of time, especially for a virus that DOES NOT post a risk to them, unlike Polio which actually did affect kids. If the Sars Covi2 virus was actually dangerous they probably wouldn't even be in school in the first place
 

Covid-19 DOES pose a risk to children.  Children have died from covid-19 and children have long covid.  Polio also didn't pose that much of a risk to children.  Only .1-.5% would get any serious side affect.  And polio doesn't spread airborne.  Polio has a pretty low transmission rate.

And all those pandemics that I listed?  Kids did wear masks all day long in school.  And they wore them for an indefinite amount of time because they didn't know when the pandemic would end.

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51 minutes ago, mburgess1982 said:

Again it is not the actual virus that is shuttering businesses but rather Governments imposing draconian lockdowns and tyrannical policies that are doing the real damage. 

You can't get much more real than death and disability. Govs that embrace the consensus of experts tend to reduce those.  Govs that politicize health measures, to bait their electorate into a walled rage garden - they get more death and disability.

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43 minutes ago, mburgess1982 said:

Its very hard to justify the insanity we are experiencing now by trying to compare it to Polio, although the Polio fiasco was pretty bad too as they injected millions of people with contaminated vaccines containing cancer causing sv40

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10472327/

So you think we shouldn't have tried to make a vaccine for polio?  That we should have just left polio to keep running in the population?

And the cancer causing stuff in the polio vaccine is nothing compared to the fact that the first vaccine actually caused polio.  Imagine being given a covid-19 vaccine and having a decent chance of getting covid-19. :)

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44 minutes ago, pogi said:

All these concerns would go away if we could just create doubt and get people to believe that Covid is not all that bad.  If we can successfully downplay the virus, create doubt in PCR test results and thus positivity rates, death rates, and pretend like hospitals/people are not really in crisis, then mandates and lock-downs, etc. would come off as excessive overreach and unjustifiable and all our concerns would go away.

I don't understand what you are saying here.  

44 minutes ago, pogi said:

Whether or not you see yourself playing that game, that is the game that is being played in all the articles you post.  

Well, some and some not.  I reject the notion that I can only cite to materials that I find 100% correct and acceptable, or that I am beholden to every inference, conclusion or motive of the authors of the materials to which I link.

44 minutes ago, pogi said:

Giving this virus the respect it has earned doesn't need to diminish from your concerns.

I don't understand what you are saying here.  I can recognize the seriousness of Covid (which I do) and also have and express concerns about how we are responding to it, particularly as to governmental overreach and infringements onto individual liberty and autonomy.  I can walk and chew gum at the same time.

44 minutes ago, pogi said:

It is as if people see a scale with the virus on one side and liberty on the other.   

Or a scale with governmental overreach and authoritarianism on the one side and liberty on the other.

We saw this in the aftermath of 9/11.  A permanent increase is the size and scope and power of government, with a corollary diminution in the overall rights and liberties accorded to individuals.  I say this not because I don't recognize and appreciate the very real threat of terrorism, but but because I do, while also recognizing the problem of government using such emergencies to accrue ever-increasing amounts of power to itself at the expense of the individual.

44 minutes ago, pogi said:

If we give too much weight to the virus, then liberty may be threatened - hence the downplaying of the virus.  There may be some truth to that.  I think we can all agree that at some point government intervention would be justified in a terrible enough scenario.  So, people are hedging up their liberty by creating doubt in the virus, but I am afraid it is coming at a terrible cost. 

Hence the value of having living prophets and apostles.  Most of the time the Brethren teach us correct principles and encourage us to govern ourselves.  But I think Covid represents a serious enough threat that the Brethren felt impelled to endorse and encourage vaccination, masks, social distancing, etc.

But even then, the Brethren were also concerned about encroachments on civil liberties.  Hence we have Elder Bednar's remarks from June 2020:

Quote

COVID-19 Crisis—A Wake-Up Call for Religious Freedom

Elder Bednar discusses the pandemic at BYU Law School conference

“Our world has seemingly been filled recently with strong wake-up calls,” said Elder David A. Bednar of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. 

“From natural disasters to a deadly pandemic sweeping the globe to a most pernicious social plague of racism, we are daily reminded that we need to awaken to the perilous times that surround us, come to ourselves and arise and turn to our Divine Father, who desires to instruct and edify us through our trials,” said Elder Bednar.

The apostle’s remarks were streamed live Wednesday morning during the Religious Freedom Annual Review, hosted by the Brigham Young University Law School. This year’s conference is being held online due to the pandemic.

...

Impacts on Religious Freedom

Elder Bednar warned there is a danger in limiting a religious organization’s right to gather. “Gathering, in short, is at the core of faith and religion. Indeed, if the faithful are not gathering, sooner or later they will begin to scatter. And because gathering lies at the very heart of religion, the right to gather lies at the very heart of religious freedom.”

When the pandemic hit, congregations of many faiths around the world canceled worship services and other activities to abide by government restrictions for large group gatherings to slow the spread of the coronavirus.

“I believe it is vital for us to recognize that the sweeping governmental restrictions that were placed on religious gatherings at the outset of the COVID-19 crisis truly were extraordinary,” Elder Bednar explained. “No other event in our lifetime—and perhaps no other event since the founding of this nation—has caused quite this kind of widespread disruption of religious gatherings and worship.” 

Four Personal Reflections

Elder Bednar offered four personal reflections on the impacts of the coronavirus pandemic:

  • Government power can never be unlimited.
  • Religious freedom is paramount among our fundamental rights.
  • Religious freedom is fragile.
  • In a time of crisis, sensitive tools are necessary to balance demands of religious liberty with the just interests of society.

In North America, Elder Bednar pointed out, jurisdictions deemed services related to alcohol, animals and marijuana as essential, while the services of religious organizations were classified as nonessential, even when those activities could be safely conducted.

The senior Church leader cited examples in one state where Catholic priests were barred from anointing a parishioner with holy oil in the performance of last rites, even if that person did not have COVID-19. In the same state, Latter-day Saints were not allowed to perform baptisms. 

“The power of government must have limits,” asserted Elder Bednar.

“This time of restriction and confinement has confirmed for me that no freedom is more important than religious freedom,” said the senior leader of the global faith. “Protecting a person’s physical health from the coronavirus is, of course, important, but so is a person’s spiritual health.”

Elder Bednar continued, “While believers and their religious organizations must be good citizens in a time of crisis, never again can we allow government officials to treat the exercise of religion as simply nonessential. Never again must the fundamental right to worship God be trivialized below the ability to buy gasoline.”

Elder Bednar was, I think, "giving this virus the respect it has earned" while still expressing substantial concerns about governmental reactions to it.

If he can, then so can I.

Thanks,

-Smac

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37 minutes ago, mburgess1982 said:

The 2009 Swine flu fiasco seemed to have been a trial run for the Covid "Pandemic". They were called out by the council of Europe and it was deemed "One of the greatest medical scandals of the century". They did it before but they would never try it again right? Same people, same strategy, except this time they have the PCR test and a much much larger social media audience to push propaganda to

They published this in Forbes in 2010, but it was pulled off their site in 2020, gee I wonder why lol
https://web.archive.org/web/20201011163656if_/https://www.forbes.com/2010/02/05/world-health-organization-swine-flu-pandemic-opinions-contributors-michael-fumento.html
 

I don't understand what you are trying to say here.  The 2009 pandemic killed maybe a half a million people.  So, yes, it wasn't really much of a pandemic.  And we can rightfully say that the WHO overreacted.  But you can't say that we should ignore Covid-19?  That makes no logical sense.  Covid-19 has killed over 4.5 million people.  How is that not a pandemic?

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