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35 minutes ago, mburgess1982 said:

"Second, Ivermectin is not a recognized and "approved" treatment for Covid"

Of course its not, if it was the drug companies wouldn't have been allowed to push the vaccine through the EUA, that's my point

The "drug companies"???  Who the heck do you think owns Ivermectin (answer: Merck)?  Merck is top 5 biggest drug companies in the world.   I think they could compete if they wanted to - it's not really a competition though.  Vaccine companies would welcome a viable treatment.  Many are working on viable treatments as we speak, in fact. 

In order to be approved, Ivermectin would have to go through the same scrutiny/testing that the vaccines have to go through.  If you don't really understand how this stuff works, please don't pretend like you do.  That can take years...in the mean-time, vaccines could have received EUA while Merck attempted to receive authorization for approved use for Covid treatment.  Your conspiracy theory sucks. 

Edited by pogi
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14 minutes ago, pogi said:

The "drug companies"???  Who the heck do you think owns Ivermectin (answer: Merck)?  Merck is top 5 biggest drug companies in the world.   I think they could compete if they wanted to - it's not really a competition though.  Vaccine companies would welcome a viable treatment.  Many are working on viable treatments as we speak, in fact. 

In order to be approved, Ivermectin would have to go through the same scrutiny/testing that the vaccines have to go through.  If you don't really understand how this stuff works, please don't pretend like you do.  That can take years...in the mean-time, vaccines could have received EUA while Merck attempted to receive authorization for approved use for Covid treatment.  Your conspiracy theory sucks. 

Merck is developing its own expensive Covid drugs, they want nothing to do with Ivermectin because its Off Patent and harder to make money off of 

https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/pfizer-merck-launch-new-trials-of-oral-covid-19-drugs-1.5569783

Edited by mburgess1982
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Just now, mburgess1982 said:

Merck is developing its own expensive Covid drugs, they want nothing to do with Ivermectin because its Off Patent and harder to make money off of

https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/pfizer-merck-launch-new-trials-of-oral-covid-19-drugs-1.5569783

I don't get why you keep focusing on "off patent".  All that means is anyone can make the drug.  So, if it really was a valid treatment, then anyone would be able to make it and market it.  Where is the rush for that?  Or maybe, just maybe, it is that ivermectin is not the panacean you seem to think it is.  If you read the article you link to, you might notice that.  An interesting graph in there is the fall and rise of covid-19 in Peru.  It amazingly matched up exactly with the ivermectin use and disuse, so you would think that would be a no-brainer.  Except, it also matched up exactly with the fall and rise of the different phases that occurred through out the world.  So what do you think is most likely for the data from Peru: ivermectin that only it used or the phases that everyone else saw?

Also, if the "conspiracy" is downplaying ivermectin and other possible treatments, why is the US government (https://www.nih.gov/research-training/medical-research-initiatives/activ/covid-19-therapeutics-prioritized-testing-clinical-trials#activ6) and UK government (https://www.bbc.com/news/health-57570377) running a study on them?

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36 minutes ago, mburgess1982 said:

Merck is developing its own expensive Covid drugs, they want nothing to do with Ivermectin because its Off Patent and harder to make money off of 

https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/pfizer-merck-launch-new-trials-of-oral-covid-19-drugs-1.5569783

And this helps your point...how???

Off-patent or not, it is still off-label and could not have hindered EUA authorization of vaccines.  Have you forgotten that is our point of discussion?

I thought you said the only reason that Ivermectin is not approved for use with Covid is because the "drug companies" see it as competition to their vaccines?  Isn't that what you said?  Yes, I am pretty sure it is.  Changing your story now?  You seem pretty shifty about all of this.  Do you even know what you really believe about all of this?  Does it matter at all to you that you are smearing business with accusations without legitimate reason/evidence for those accusations?  You are all too cavalier and careless in your accusations.  It's not really ethical what you are doing.  

There are usually two distinct groups of antivaxers - the anti-government alt-right nuts, and the anti big-pharm alt-med hippies.  They don't usually get along with each other, but you interestingly seem to embrace both roles comfortably. 

Pfizer (the Covid vaccine manufacturer)...launching Covid treatment development???  Gasps!  I thought you said that treatment for Covid would be a direct competition for vaccines and that vaccine manufacturers are in conspiracy with the government to squash the competition - Covid treatments?  Make up your mind. 

 

 

Edited by pogi
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1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Is that an incorrect statement or a desperate plea that it be true to hold up your collapsing worldview?

You have not the slightest clue what my world view is.  Furthermore, the articles you posted did not back up your statement, not even close.  Remember, you said,  "The news is full of schools closing because teacher hospitalizations and fatalities make it impossible to continue operating."  If this is a true statement, you should be able to easily prove it.  Show me I am wrong and I will happily retract my statement.  If you can't, simply admit, you made it up.

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1 hour ago, Chum said:

Downvoting is not my thing but I'll make an exception for this.

I don't care a lick about votes.  If that makes you feel better, please give me more of them.  By the way can you help The Nehor prove he didn't make it up?  I'll gladly retract, if you can.

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6 minutes ago, mburgess1982 said:

Merck is developing its own expensive Covid drugs, they want nothing to do with Ivermectin because its Off Patent and harder to make money off of 

A well established drug, with a known production process and developed supply line is an excellent money maker. Money spent to research, develop, test and seek FDA approval is already spent, so an established drug is a much better bet for making money then a new one. It would be every drug companies' dream to have a drug they've already finished pouring all that money into suddenly develop a lucrative off-script use and it really wouldn't matter if a few other competitors managed to grab a piece of the money pie.

For example, Merck certainly hasn't stopped making and marketing "Claritan" simply because it's "off patent" and you can buy generic versions of the same drug.

Given all of the above, I would look at the fact that Merck is working on Covid treatments as a pretty clear signal that Invermectin isn't a viable treatment for COVID. Initial studies that indicated it might be helpful haven't planned out, and the risk/reward ratio is far from favorable.

The risk/reward ratio for the vaccine is much better. So why endanger your health with a sketchy treatment after you get a disease, when there is a reasonably safe alternative to reduce your chances of getting (and spreading) the disease in the first place?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/joshuacohen/2021/08/29/ivermectin-a-40-year-old-anti-parasitic-now-embedded-in-a-covid-19-culture-war/

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1 hour ago, mburgess1982 said:

Couldn't read the last article but the first two said nothing about schools closing due to teachers dying from covid lol

Being “….due to impacts of recent COVID-19 related illnesses…” is too vague for you that it doesn’t obviously include deaths and hospitalizations?

Amazing. You will build entire global conspiracies off of badly sourced disinformation but dismiss good info for not meeting some arbitrary clearness standard you just made up. If I didn’t know any better I would think your reasoning faculties are broken.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Wait…..do I know better? Hmmm…..

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1 hour ago, mburgess1982 said:

Say it with me together now, Ivermectin is OFF-PATENT

Ok I'm done here

Have a good day guys

And generics can be created in a day. And the original brand name would still have made billions just due to some doctors (and patients) preferring the brand name. They left a lot of money sitting on the table.

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Not meant to fill the CFR, but something I felt worth posting, a memorial site for educators who are known to have died of Covid. 
 

While not as traumatic as having a parent get sick or die, it must be still very troubling to the children when a teacher gets sick or dies, an impact I haven’t seen discussed much.

https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/we-feel-your-grief-remembering-the-1-000-plus-educators-whove-died-of-covid-19/2021/09

Also:

https://www.wfaa.com/mobile/article/news/health/coronavirus/these-texas-educators-teachers-coaches-staff-died-of-covid-19/287-276e9b64-bdd4-4685-ac03-79089cfc2e70

Edited by Calm
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38 minutes ago, T-Shirt said:

You have not the slightest clue what my world view is.  Furthermore, the articles you posted did not back up your statement, not even close.  Remember, you said,  "The news is full of schools closing because teacher hospitalizations and fatalities make it impossible to continue operating."  If this is a true statement, you should be able to easily prove it.  Show me I am wrong and I will happily retract my statement.  If you can't, simply admit, you made it up.

They did back it up but you aren’t interested in truth. You are just playing word games claiming that it is not using the exact wording you would prefer.

52 minutes ago, pogi said:

I thought you said the only reason that Ivermectin is not approved for use with Covid is because the "drug companies" see it as competition to their vaccines?  Isn't that what you said?  Yes, I am pretty sure it is.  Changing your story now?  You seem pretty shifty about all of this.  Do you even know what you really believe about all of this?  Does it matter at all to you that you are smearing business with accusations without legitimate reason/evidence for those accusations?  You are all too cavalier and careless in your accusations.  It's not really ethical what you are doing.  

There are usually two distinct groups of antivaxers - the anti-government alt-right nuts, and the anti big-pharm alt-med hippies.  They don't usually get along with each other, but you interestingly seem to embrace both roles comfortably. 

Pfizer (the Covid vaccine manufacturer)...launching Covid treatment development???  Gasps!  I thought you said that treatment for Covid would be a direct competition for vaccines and that vaccine manufacturers are in conspiracy with the government to squash the competition - Covid treatments?  Make up your mind. 

The words of Jean Paul Sartre seem relevant:

“Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.”

That last bit is almost too on the nose as burgess declared he was leaving (and didn’t).

They don’t want truth. They want to win small rhetorical victories to soothe their ego and hurt their enemies. Hence why it is usually better to just ridicule them.

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5 hours ago, pogi said:

You don't see the value of being able to rule out 2 symptomatically similar diseases with one single test? 

If the PCR doesn't work, as you claim, how is it so reliable as a predictor of future hospitalizations and death?  When there is a spike in positive PCR tests, Covid hospitalizations are guaranteed to follow within a couple/few weeks, followed by an increase in death after that.  How can it be so positively predictive if it doesn't really work?

We get upset because of what we see happening in hospitals.  That is a threat to all of us when crisis standards of care are implemented.  We are concerned for the welfare of our communities.  The vaccines both reduce transmission and severity of disease, push back against that narrative is dangerous and reckless.   

Let's get a test that works, yes.

The cases/hospitalization/death numbers are exaggerated.  This disease primarily affects the elderly, people with co-morbidities and the obese.  It is a real disease and should be properly viewed, not as an event that will kill us all or require us to take the draconian measures like we currently see in Australia.  For heaven's sake, Australia went into lock-down over a few cases.  I hope we don't continue to overreact to where we start considering these idiotic measures.

The hospitals aren't being overrun.  Here is the latest from Johns Hopkins for Utah:

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/hospitalization-7-day-trend/utah

73% of the ICU beds are occupied with about 1/2 due to covid.

Incidentally, what say you about forcing everyone to take a vaccine that doesn't stop the spread of the disease given that natural immunity is much better than what the vaccine offers?  How about allowing free choice?

Kids have practically zero risk of dying from covid-19.  Should we vax them anyway?  If so, why?  It isn't necessary to vaccinate against something that shows no risk, especially when natural immunity is far better than what our beloved pharma companies can produce at the moment.  Chicken pox parties were a thing back in the 70's and it provided long lasting immunity.  Perhaps the focus should be on the endangered populations, actually treating them prior to when they cannot breath and leave the healthy alone?

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2 minutes ago, Harry T. Clark said:

The hospitals aren't being overrun.  Here is the latest from Johns Hopkins for Utah:

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/hospitalization-7-day-trend/utah

73% of the ICU beds are occupied with about 1/2 due to covid.

 

They must be dumping anyone they can to keep beds open because it used to be only about 10-20% of ICU beds were filled with Covid patients. 

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1 hour ago, mburgess1982 said:

would assume that a large portion if not most of or all of the staff would have to get sick and/or die to permanently close a business. Think

A business would be pretty awful to wait until all the staff was sick or dead before they closed.

A great many businesses closed down without government mandates. My son's company moved to telecommute extremely early in the COVID crises, long before mandates were extended, and stayed telecommute well after the state "reopened." 

My husband, who works from a home office, also went full telecommute very early in the crises - no longer visiting clients. To date, only one of his clients has asked him to travel to their company, and many of his client companies are only now slowly reopening their offices and being very liberal with employees who prefer to continue working from home.

Government mandates wouldn't be needed if people would simply act like rational human beings on their own. Rational behaviors like, go get vaccinated, eradicate a virus before it mutates and starts killing children  

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11 minutes ago, Harry T. Clark said:

Incidentally, what say you about forcing everyone to take a vaccine that doesn't stop the spread of the disease given that natural immunity is much better than what the vaccine offers?  How about allowing free choice?

Kids have practically zero risk of dying from covid-19.  Should we vax them anyway?  If so, why?  It isn't necessary to vaccinate against something that shows no risk, especially when natural immunity is far better than what our beloved pharma companies can produce at the moment.  Chicken pox parties were a thing back in the 70's and it provided long lasting immunity.  Perhaps the focus should be on the endangered populations, actually treating them prior to when they cannot breath and leave the healthy alone?

We now have a chicken pox vaccine and we don’t do chicken pox parties anymore. Even though (drumroll of doom) natural immunity has been shown to be stronger against chicken pox.

What treatment are you suggesting we give that will save these people if given soon enough? There isn’t one.

The rest of your post I didn’t quote is standard rubbish that has been addressed multiple times and mixes in information from 2020 that no longer applies to establish the conclusion and you should be embarrassed of it.

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10 minutes ago, Harry T. Clark said:

 

1.  This disease primarily affects the elderly, people with co-morbidities and the obese.  

2. a vaccine that doesn't stop the spread of the disease given that natural immunity is much better than what the vaccine offers?  How about allowing free choice?

3. Kids have practically zero risk of dying from covid-19.  

1. Healthy adults dying from COVID

And related topic: Alive doesn't mean okay.

2. Vaccine vs Natural Immunity

And related topic:Risk of Death from COVID vs Risk of Death from Vaccine

3. Children as virus variant breeders  

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1 hour ago, Harry T. Clark said:

Let's get a test that works, yes.

The cases/hospitalization/death numbers are exaggerated.  This disease primarily affects the elderly, people with co-morbidities and the obese.  It is a real disease and should be properly viewed, not as an event that will kill us all or require us to take the draconian measures like we currently see in Australia.  For heaven's sake, Australia went into lock-down over a few cases.  I hope we don't continue to overreact to where we start considering these idiotic measures.

The hospitals aren't being overrun.  Here is the latest from Johns Hopkins for Utah:

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/hospitalization-7-day-trend/utah

73% of the ICU beds are occupied with about 1/2 due to covid.

Incidentally, what say you about forcing everyone to take a vaccine that doesn't stop the spread of the disease given that natural immunity is much better than what the vaccine offers?  How about allowing free choice?

Kids have practically zero risk of dying from covid-19.  Should we vax them anyway?  If so, why?  It isn't necessary to vaccinate against something that shows no risk, especially when natural immunity is far better than what our beloved pharma companies can produce at the moment.  Chicken pox parties were a thing back in the 70's and it provided long lasting immunity.  Perhaps the focus should be on the endangered populations, actually treating them prior to when they cannot breath and leave the healthy alone?

And round and round we go...

John Hopkins apparently doesn't know how many ICU beds we have in Utah.  Their reports of active hospitalizations is fairly accurate though.  They are showing 615 ICU beds in Utah while UDOH confirms that there are only 519 beds in the state.

This has already been noted however.  You had no response before...why not?  What is your answer to this?  Why do you keep reposting this nonsense without addressing my response?

Currently 90.8% of our ICU beds are occupied, and 92.5% of referral center ICU beds are occupied.

Quote

Note about ICU Utilization: The UDOH receives reports about the total number of available ICU beds in the state. However, this reporting does not reflect the number of staffed beds able to care for patients. At about 69% overall ICU utilization, ICUs in Utah’s major hospitals with the ability to provide best care for COVID-19 patients begin to reach staffing capacity. Seventy-two percent use among all hospitals and 77% in Referral Center hospitals creates major strains on the healthcare system. When 85% capacity is reached, Utah will be functionally out of staffed ICU beds, indicating an overwhelmed hospital system.

https://coronavirus.utah.gov/case-counts/

Even if you were right that we are only at 73% full, that means that care is diminished and we are on the verge of "major strains on the health care system".  Unfortunately, it is not true, we are 90+% full. 

The following article was from 1 month ago.  Is the President of the Utah Hospital Association also lying?  How many people have to be lying for you to be right?  The numbers keep adding up.  Or, the more obvious and simple answer is that John Hopkins made a simple clerical error in the number of Utah ICU beds.  No liars.  Simple mistake.  Simple answer.  Your answer requires conspiracy and lies on multiple levels crossing multiple organizations. 

Quote

“Physically we haven’t lost any beds. But we’ve lost a lot of staff,” Bell explained. “We’re not able to staff as many beds because of the burnout and turnover.”

SALT LAKE CITY — The Utah Hospital Association said the state’s health care system is once again in a crisis situation as intensive care units fill up with sick COVID-19 patients.

“We’re in the middle of a significant surge,” said Greg Bell, president of the Utah Hospital Association. “An upswing in the number of infections and in the number of hospitalizations.”

Summer is already a busy time for hospitals, Bell said, and the current COVID surge comes as Utah has about 30 fewer available ICU beds than during the last spike in hospitalizations at the beginning of the year.

“Physically we haven’t lost any beds. But we’ve lost a lot of staff,” Bell explained. “We’re not able to staff as many beds because of the burnout and turnover.”


To underscore just how critical the hospital bed situation is becoming, Bell said that so far this month there have been 206 transfer requests in Utah from one hospital system to a different hospital system.

“Basically 10 cases a day are being diverted or transferred so that we can load-balance among the various systems,” he said. “That just doesn’t happen in normal life — very, very rare. So to have this kind of volume and that kind of transfers just shows you we’re in a crisis.”

Across the state, ICU beds were 89% full while ICU beds in referral centers reached 91% utilization on Thursday.

“Referral centers are the 16 hospitals in Utah with the capability to provide the best care for patients with COVID-19,” reads the description on the state’s COVID-19 website. “Because most patients are transferred to these facilities, their utilization is the best reflection of the true hospital capacity in Utah when looking at ICU beds.”

https://ksltv.com/471450/were-in-a-crisis-utahs-icu-beds-above-functionally-full-level/

Of course, this is fake news too right - our neighbors didn't really instigate crisis standards of care, right?  Liars!  Conspiracy!

Quote

Coronavirus patients are flooding and straining hospitals across the U.S., particularly in Western states, where administrators are put in positions of needing to ration care as their facilities are pushed to their breaking points by the delta variant...

Alaska this past week joined Idaho in adopting statewide crisis standards of care that provide guidance to health care providers making difficult decisions on how to allocate limited resources. Several hospitals in Montana have either activated crisis standards of care or are considering it as the state is pummeled by COVID-19...

Under the guidelines, providers can prioritize treating patients based on their chances of recovery, impacting anyone seeking emergency care, not just those with COVID-19...

Still, the vast majority of COVID-19 patients overwhelming hospitals are unvaccinated, months after the vaccine became widely available to U.S. adults...

With Alaska seeing its highest rate of COVID-19 hospitalizations since the pandemic started, the Providence Alaska Medical Center in Anchorage decided to start crisis standards of care earlier this month so doctors wouldn't be forced to make determinations about patients themselves...

“That also ensures that it is equitable [and follows] principles of justice, fairness because we all want to do the right thing,” Bernstein said. “And those types of choices can cause moral pain for health care providers.”

Meanwhile, the health care industry is taking a hit of a different kind, with many hospitals across the country experiencing staffing shortages amid burnout...

https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/573897-more-hospitals-forced-to-ration-care-amid-delta-surge

 

 

Edited by pogi
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12 minutes ago, pogi said:

And round and round we go...

John Hopkins apparently doesn't know how many ICU beds we have in Utah.  Their reports of active hospitalizations is fairly accurate though.  They are showing 615 ICU beds in Utah while UDOH confirms that there are only 519 beds in the state.

This has already been noted however.  You had no response before...why not?  What is your answer to this?  Why do you keep reposting this nonsense without addressing my response?

Currently 90.8% of our ICU beds are occupied, and 92.5% of referral center ICU beds are occupied.

Even if you were right that we are only at 73% full, that means that care is diminished and we are on the verge of "major strains on the health care system".  Unfortunately, it is not true, we are 90+% full. 

This was from 1 month ago:

Of course, this is fake news too right - our neighbors really instigated crisis standards of care, right?:

 

 

Johns Hopkins gets their numbers from the US Dept of Health and Human Services.  Perhaps Utah is underreporting their numbers to the feds?

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2 hours ago, T-Shirt said:

You have not the slightest clue what my world view is.  Furthermore, the articles you posted did not back up your statement, not even close.  Remember, you said,  "The news is full of schools closing because teacher hospitalizations and fatalities make it impossible to continue operating."  If this is a true statement, you should be able to easily prove it.  Show me I am wrong and I will happily retract my statement.  If you can't, simply admit, you made it up.

He 100% made it up 

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