What is the LGBT policy goal for the Church

[Rivers]

Duplicate 

Edited August 28, 2021 by Rivers

[Tacenda]

6 hours ago, Amulek said:

This is perhaps off topic, but does anyone know if Matt Easton is still a faithfully active member of the church? 

I don't know. Hopefully he hasn't and lives his true self and melds the two, if he's a believer.

[Tacenda]

4 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

I hope not. Most gay members realize the church has nothing for them and leave. Reference the two members of the popular byutv show studio c. 

Or he stays and shows that it can be done since some are saying he won't be ex'd and the church can become a more welcoming place.

[carbon dioxide]

5 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

I hope not. Most gay members realize the church has nothing for them and leave. Reference the two members of the popular byutv show studio c. 

The Church does not exist to give free stuff to the members.  The Church is for those who want to achieve celestial glory and exaltation.  If a gay person think that is nothing when it is in fact EVERYTHING, what else can one do.  Perhaps they might think that exaltation may be obtained through their local pride center. 

[kimpearson]

I mentor parents of LGTBQ+ children who are trying to stay active or maintain positive connections with the Church.  I have been doing it for 8 years and our Facebook group has over 2,500 members and we are currently adding 10 to 20 people a week.  I have listened to almost everyone of these parents stories and the stories of their children.  My gay son came out at age 12 and quit attending at age 14.  I don't claim to know it all but I can share some things that I hear over and over that LGTBQ+ individuals want.

• This has always been a part of me.  God either put it in me, allowed it to be part of me or I brought this with me from the pre-existence.  It feels natural and its what influences my view of the world, my future and others the same way my fellow heterosexuals' members feel about their sexual attractions.  Please Church leaders explain this because saying we don't know or you will be fixed in the next life brings no comfort and in fact leads to thoughts that maybe I should end my life to get this fixed.
• Please stop teaching in lesson after lesson that only those who marry the opposite sex in the temple get to go to the celestial kingdom and say nothing about what will happen to me.  It makes me feel like I am broken, an abomination or not wanted in the church as there is no real place for me.
• Please don't tell me to be celibate, not change my gender identity or marry someone of the opposite sex because that is what God wants when everyone I see trying to do that eventually suffers depression, self loathing, incredible pain to a spouse, self harm, continual internal conflict trying to stay active and immense loneliness.  I see no examples in my ward or stake of people successfully doing this.  The Church keeps putting out examples but after a period of time many of those examples can't keep doing it and quit and the church removes the example.  Holding up examples in mixed orientation marriages works in so few limited cases and I just can't imagine even touching someone of the opposite sex.  Giving the example of older members who had a same sex relationship then came back to church and left their partner turns out to be very rare even though some are widely known.
• Come up with a path for an LGTBQ+ individual to live life in the Church that brings peace, happiness, feeling companionship.  Right now the only LGTBQ+ people I see who have rich full lives that are full of happiness and joy are those in committed relationships including gay marriage or have transitioned to the gender they identify.  I recognize that not all gay relationships turn out well and not everyone who transitions is happy but so many are that right now this appears to be the best path.  
• Don't say you love me and do nothing else.  Leaving me alone or not saying any bad about me doesn't help.  I need you to listen to me and understand how hard and impossible what you are asking me to do is.  How it crushes any hope I have for a future full of love and companionship.  Admit that you would have an incredibly hard life you were denied your heterosexual relationships and especially your children.  Don't glibly tell me to trust in god or not worry about because God will take care of it.  Don't tell me the atonement helps me because it doesn't take away the pain.
• Tell me how I am supposed to look at the next life with any hope when the picture you paint is repulsive and totally disheartening to me currently.  Can you understand that what you hold sacred and as eternally appealing just isn't at all to me no matter how much you tell me it is.

I think this points should get across what many of the LGTBQ+ individuals I know want from the Church.

[MustardSeed]

13 minutes ago, kimpearson said:

I mentor parents of LGTBQ+ children who are trying to stay active or maintain positive connections with the Church.  I have been doing it for 8 years and our Facebook group has over 2,500 members and we are currently adding 10 to 20 people a week.  I have listened to almost everyone of these parents stories and the stories of their children.  My gay son came out at age 12 and quit attending at age 14.  I don't claim to know it all but I can share some things that I hear over and over that LGTBQ+ individuals want.

• This has always been a part of me.  God either put it in me, allowed it to be part of me or I brought this with me from the pre-existence.  It feels natural and its what influences my view of the world, my future and others the same way my fellow heterosexuals' members feel about their sexual attractions.  Please Church leaders explain this because saying we don't know or you will be fixed in the next life brings no comfort and in fact leads to thoughts that maybe I should end my life to get this fixed.
• Please stop teaching in lesson after lesson that only those who marry the opposite sex in the temple get to go to the celestial kingdom and say nothing about what will happen to me.  It makes me feel like I am broken, an abomination or not wanted in the church as there is no real place for me.
• Please don't tell me to be celibate, not change my gender identity or marry someone of the opposite sex because that is what God wants when everyone I see trying to do that eventually suffers depression, self loathing, incredible pain to a spouse, self harm, continual internal conflict trying to stay active and immense loneliness.  I see no examples in my ward or stake of people successfully doing this.  The Church keeps putting out examples but after a period of time many of those examples can't keep doing it and quit and the church removes the example.  Holding up examples in mixed orientation marriages works in so few limited cases and I just can't imagine even touching someone of the opposite sex.  Giving the example of older members who had a same sex relationship then came back to church and left their partner turns out to be very rare even though some are widely known.
• Come up with a path for an LGTBQ+ individual to live life in the Church that brings peace, happiness, feeling companionship.  Right now the only LGTBQ+ people I see who have rich full lives that are full of happiness and joy are those in committed relationships including gay marriage or have transitioned to the gender they identify.  I recognize that not all gay relationships turn out well and not everyone who transitions is happy but so many are that right now this appears to be the best path.  
• Don't say you love me and do nothing else.  Leaving me alone or not saying any bad about me doesn't help.  I need you to listen to me and understand how hard and impossible what you are asking me to do is.  How it crushes any hope I have for a future full of love and companionship.  Admit that you would have an incredibly hard life you were denied your heterosexual relationships and especially your children.  Don't glibly tell me to trust in god or not worry about because God will take care of it.  Don't tell me the atonement helps me because it doesn't take away the pain.
• Tell me how I am supposed to look at the next life with any hope when the picture you paint is repulsive and totally disheartening to me currently.  Can you understand that what you hold sacred and as eternally appealing just isn't at all to me no matter how much you tell me it is.

I think this points should get across what many of the LGTBQ+ individuals I know want from the Church.

You have a unique insight that most members don’t have.  I imagine you have some heartbreaking experiences listening to people sharing their pain. ❤️

[carbon dioxide]

I believe the church as said enough about gay marriage and related stuff.  Members understand the law of chastity.  They understand what is in bounds and what is out of bounds regarding that law.  Yes I know for gay members the issue is hard but we all have to give up stuff.  Sacrifice is part of the deal.  The natural man is an enemy to God and will always be unless one willing to make sacrifices and be willing to give up things for the greater end.  Celestial glory is available to all but it is difficult and must be done on the Lord's terms.   Some may say that it is not fair.  Maybe but it was not fair to Jesus that he had to suffer for our sins.  But he did it anyway. 

[Peacefully]

2 hours ago, kimpearson said:

I mentor parents of LGTBQ+ children who are trying to stay active or maintain positive connections with the Church.  I have been doing it for 8 years and our Facebook group has over 2,500 members and we are currently adding 10 to 20 people a week.  I have listened to almost everyone of these parents stories and the stories of their children.  My gay son came out at age 12 and quit attending at age 14.  I don't claim to know it all but I can share some things that I hear over and over that LGTBQ+ individuals want.

• This has always been a part of me.  God either put it in me, allowed it to be part of me or I brought this with me from the pre-existence.  It feels natural and its what influences my view of the world, my future and others the same way my fellow heterosexuals' members feel about their sexual attractions.  Please Church leaders explain this because saying we don't know or you will be fixed in the next life brings no comfort and in fact leads to thoughts that maybe I should end my life to get this fixed.
• Please stop teaching in lesson after lesson that only those who marry the opposite sex in the temple get to go to the celestial kingdom and say nothing about what will happen to me.  It makes me feel like I am broken, an abomination or not wanted in the church as there is no real place for me.
• Please don't tell me to be celibate, not change my gender identity or marry someone of the opposite sex because that is what God wants when everyone I see trying to do that eventually suffers depression, self loathing, incredible pain to a spouse, self harm, continual internal conflict trying to stay active and immense loneliness.  I see no examples in my ward or stake of people successfully doing this.  The Church keeps putting out examples but after a period of time many of those examples can't keep doing it and quit and the church removes the example.  Holding up examples in mixed orientation marriages works in so few limited cases and I just can't imagine even touching someone of the opposite sex.  Giving the example of older members who had a same sex relationship then came back to church and left their partner turns out to be very rare even though some are widely known.
• Come up with a path for an LGTBQ+ individual to live life in the Church that brings peace, happiness, feeling companionship.  Right now the only LGTBQ+ people I see who have rich full lives that are full of happiness and joy are those in committed relationships including gay marriage or have transitioned to the gender they identify.  I recognize that not all gay relationships turn out well and not everyone who transitions is happy but so many are that right now this appears to be the best path.  
• Don't say you love me and do nothing else.  Leaving me alone or not saying any bad about me doesn't help.  I need you to listen to me and understand how hard and impossible what you are asking me to do is.  How it crushes any hope I have for a future full of love and companionship.  Admit that you would have an incredibly hard life you were denied your heterosexual relationships and especially your children.  Don't glibly tell me to trust in god or not worry about because God will take care of it.  Don't tell me the atonement helps me because it doesn't take away the pain.
• Tell me how I am supposed to look at the next life with any hope when the picture you paint is repulsive and totally disheartening to me currently.  Can you understand that what you hold sacred and as eternally appealing just isn't at all to me no matter how much you tell me it is.

I think this points should get across what many of the LGTBQ+ individuals I know want from the Church.

Thank you for sharing. My thoughts on this issue have changed over the years. I’ve grown and evolved. If I had a child and they told me they were gay I would tell them they are perfect just the way they are. I would not force them to come to church, but I would stand by them if they did. If they found someone of the same sex to love and marry I would celebrate with them. Everything else is between them and God. 

Edited August 29, 2021 by Peacefully

[Calm]

31 minutes ago, Peacefully said:

 If I had a child and they told me they were gay I would tell them they are perfect just the way they are

It is so strange, but I would never say anyone or anything was perfect the way they are. It just doesn’t seem honest or realistic to me. We can all improve in some way. 
 

My daughter is queer and she knows my view is I wish she had an easier path, but if it is the one she sees for herself I will support her in every way I can.  It didn’t change how I love her to learn she was queer. 

Edited August 29, 2021 by Calm

[Peacefully]

6 minutes ago, Calm said:

It is so strange, but I would never say anyone or anything was perfect the way they are, it is. It just doesn’t seem honest to me. We can all improve in some way. 
 

My daughter is queer and she knows my view is I wish she had an easier path, but if it is the one she sees for herself I will support her in every way I can.  

To me, kids have a hard enough time gay or straight without a parent telling them through word or deed that they are “less than.” My daughter was always on the curvy side and I always told her she was perfect the way she was. She is in her thirties, still curvy and with very high self esteem. She even mentions how she never saw herself as “fat” because I always told her she was perfect. I imagine if I had a gay child they would have plenty of outside influences telling them they were damaged in one way or another. They wouldn’t hear that from me. 

Edited August 29, 2021 by Peacefully

[BlueDreams]

2 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

The Church does not exist to give free stuff to the members.  The Church is for those who want to achieve celestial glory and exaltation.  If a gay person think that is nothing when it is in fact EVERYTHING, what else can one do.  Perhaps they might think that exaltation may be obtained through their local pride center. .......

I believe the church as said enough about gay marriage and related stuff.  Members understand the law of chastity.  They understand what is in bounds and what is out of bounds regarding that law.  Yes I know for gay members the issue is hard but we all have to give up stuff.  Sacrifice is part of the deal.  The natural man is an enemy to God and will always be unless one willing to make sacrifices and be willing to give up things for the greater end.  Celestial glory is available to all but it is difficult and must be done on the Lord's terms.   Some may say that it is not fair.  Maybe but it was not fair to Jesus that he had to suffer for our sins.  But he did it anyway. 

When my  cousin came out to me, I had a flash revelation. I knew no matter what, heaven for me would include a happy relationship with her no matter what. And it was confirmed when I read D+C 76:87-89 and how each kingdom ministers to another. When I read your post I find myself wondering, how do we achieve celestial glory if we do not learn to truly minister and care for those around us who differ?  The church is there to guide us to all that God has and to change us to be more like Christ....but it's also there to teach us how to care for those that differ and/or won't. At least, I think it should.
 

When I read California Boy's and KimPearson's posts I find myself wondering, what would it look like to be a more inclusive church to more people on differing points of their journeys....to not have to try and "fix" their "problems" with strictly messages that comfort or conform more to our heterosexual norms (like god will fix you in the next life if you live celibately in this one)? What does it mean to really need LGBT members in our church? When I think that I need someone, at least, it's not because they will fit my purposes...but that who they are and the perspectives they hold are absolutely valuable and something I need to learn and change from. Therefore to me understanding what LGBT members experience in the church - both the good and the bad - should be just looking to get a better grasp of their "agenda" but a real earnest question and invitation for me as a solid member to find new avenues to expand and change.  

I've worked with several LGB clients....most were on their way out of the church to some degree. I've seen the hand of God in that process and maybe in part from experiences like that I've come to be okay with journeys not like mine also being guided by God. I also believe in painful journeys...I've been on several myself and had experiences that taught me where I was, even though it was far from the ideal, was where I needed to be. Subimitting to these paths and experiences have changed me in ways I couldn't fathom but that I praise God for daily. Still, I don't believe in meeting people with the spiritual equivalent of "tough cookies" when they show me their pain and struggle around the church and their sexuality. It would leave them more isolated and that's a dangerous place to be. Parts of your two posts read that way to me, whether you mean to or not. I think it's a natural response when we're met with expressions that are difficult.

And, to me at least, CB's and Kim's posts were both that and I'm not a new swimmer to these waters. For me at least they're difficult because I don't have the right answer to fix the conflict I have in my head: I believe in the gospel and I've had spiritual experiences that make me believe in the ideas of marriage between man and woman. But I also know I must be missing stuff when I've witnessed and walked with my gay clients through their stories and their experiences and their pain. I don't think it's an answer I can fully receive without them because it's not my mountain to fully climb. I know I need them, I know that it will take me growing and changing as well, and I don't know what the end result will look like exactly....I just trust the process and figure one day many important scattered truths will make more sense together. 

 

With luv,

BD

 

 

  

Edited August 29, 2021 by BlueDreams

[SeekingUnderstanding]

4 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

The Church does not exist to give free stuff to the members.  The Church is for those who want to achieve celestial glory and exaltation.  If a gay person think that is nothing when it is in fact EVERYTHING, what else can one do.  Perhaps they might think that exaltation may be obtained through their local pride center. 

Imagine someone coming to your door and promising a heaven where your opposite gender attraction struggles will be cured and you can spend eternity with someone of the same gender. Sound tempting?

Edited August 29, 2021 by SeekingUnderstanding

[BlueDreams]

40 minutes ago, Peacefully said:

To me, kids have a hard enough time gay or straight without a parent telling them through word or deed that they are “less than.” My daughter was always on the curvy side and I always told her she was perfect the way she was. She is in her thirties, still curvy and with very high self esteem. She even mentions how she never saw herself as “fat” because I always told her she was perfect. I imagine if I had a gay child they would have plenty of outside influences telling them they were damaged in one way or another. They wouldn’t hear that from me. 

I’m kinda like calm. I get squeamish around the word “perfect.” Some things we got going aren’t perfect and may need to change or be refined etc, and that’s okay. It makes them just like everyone: so amazingly human.

I think If my daughter or future children came out as gay, I would rather tell and show them that they are worthy of love and kindness as much the day they told me as the day before and that I value them the same. 
 

With luv, 

BD 
 

 

[Stormin' Mormon]

On 8/27/2021 at 5:51 PM, california boy said:

I am going to try and answer your question as sincerely as I possibly can.  I first want to say, that I don't speak for the LGBT community.  There is no consensus on ANYTHING in that community.  We all come from different places and have different views and experiences on most issues.  But I am a member of that community, and I have been a member of the Church since birth and most of my adult life. I make these comments solely for the purpose of those that REALLY want to understand how a lot of gay people feel about the Church.  I am just one voice.

I don't think I need to rehash all of the things the Church has done against the LGBT community.  But compounded together, there is a lot of resentment against the Mormon Church in our community.  It seems to be periodically exacerbated on a regular basis.  Bluebell is right.  It is like tender skin that has been badly burnt.  Just when it starts to heal, there is another perceived attack.  But honestly, the vast majority of the LGBT community has written off the Mormon church and couldn't care less what it does.  Members and former members are much more sensitive to what the Church does and how it treats LGBT people.  When these firestorms routinely show up, most just roll their eyes and say "what do you expect from the Mormon Church?"

With that in mind, I want to be clear that I am not trying to dictate what the Church needs to do.  But I do have some answers to your question.

I personally don't believe that the Church is ever going to allow temple gay marriages.  I might be wrong, but I am highly doubtful.  So lets talk about what the Church could possibly do.

How about treat gay members just like straight members.  Allow them to attend BYU.  Let them hold hands, kiss, hug and yeah go on dates.  (Nothing immoral about that). Prohibit sex outside of marriage, but treat all students and faculty with the same measuring rod. 

If a gay person has sex, (either inside or outside of marriage)  treat them the same as a straight person.  Have some consistency.  My ex sister in law had an affair for over a year.  Nothing happened to her.  She is still a member in good standing.  I can think of numerous youth and many other married people who were not excommunicated for having sex outside of marriage.  

There is NOTHING immoral or wrong about coming out as gay.  If it is ok to talk about your wife or husband or boyfriend in Church or at BYU, then a person should be allowed to announce they are gaay.  Especially if that person is not having sex outside of marriage to someone of the opposite sex. Don't assume just because someone says they are gay that they are having sex.  You wouldn't assume a straight person was having sex just because they want to marry someday. Attacking that person just because they are gay is wrong and makes us feel like there is no acceptance over an issue we have no control over.

Allow us to live our own lives.  Let GOD judge us and worry about our sins unless the Church is willing to kick out every single member that is or has committed an immoral act.  We always feel like we have a target on our backs just because we are gay.  The Church does not have to accept or approve our our marriage. But don't attack our relationship unless they are willing to attack every single other relationship.

There should never be an LGBT policy.  There should be one policy for all members.  No need to single out someone who is gay.

NONE of this requires a change in doctrine.  If the Church wants to continue its belief that gay marriage is not approved of by God then fine.  But like other situations the Church finds itself in (like women marrying more than one man), let God sort it out.  Perhaps the most important mission of the Church is to lead people to God.  Teach the commandments.  Set good examples.  But in the end, each person has to find their own way back to God.  

There is no question that this issue is causing many members a lot of stress and feelings of animosity towards the Church.  I believe it is because they see a double standard in the Church.  They can clearly see that the Church has targeted the LGBT community in ways that are completely unnecessary.  As long as the Church continues on this path, more will feel like it is a Church they can not support. To many, it doesn't feel like it is the way Christ taught us how to treat sinners..  The Church really needs to figure out what it can allow and what it can't.  It would be helpful if they looked at this issues of morality in a more universally applied way instead of having two separate standards.  Just think if Elder Holland had addressed his comments more towards the entire student body rather than targeting the valedictorian gay speaker.   What he and the Church seem most upset with is the student body wanting the LGBT community to have a voice at BYU.  Can the Church not see why so many at BYU feel that the LGBT community needs to feel like they are just as much a part of the student body as anyone else?

And NO, I don't want a sentence by sentence dissection argument of everything I am writing.  I am telling you about how the LGBT community and I feel about things). Just listen.  You may agree or not.  But the question has been asked.  I have answered the OP's question the best way I know how.  I do not intend to DEFEND any of my statements.  I am however more than happy to clarify any point I have brought up.

Just now getting back to my thread and haven't read all the replies that have stacked up in the 24+ hours I've been off-thread. But I wanted to thank you for your sincere, honest, and open response to my question.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Peacefully said:

To me, kids have a hard enough time gay or straight without a parent telling them through word or deed that they are “less than.” 

I don’t think it has to be one or the other. I have always loved the idea there were places I had yet to go, to explore in myself and in others. It is more undiscovered country than less than or imperfection.

[Peacefully]

3 minutes ago, Calm said:

I don’t think it has to be one or the other. I have always loved the idea there were places I had yet to go, to explore in myself and in others. It is more undiscovered country than less than or imperfection.

I believe that I am perfectly imperfect. I am not perfect the way Christ was perfect but I’m the perfect me, lol. 

[Calm]

35 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Imagine someone coming to your door and promising a heaven where your opposite gender attraction struggles will be cured and you can spend eternity with someone of the same gender. Sound tempting?

Given how complicated it is living with someone of an opposite gender, honestly an eternity of the same is not that appealing…relationships with people in general are not that appealing to me on an eternal basis if they are simply replications of mortality.  I don’t want a parent child relationship with my parents either. 
 

As long as I am promised it will be heaven and the universe is unlimited and I will be able to take full advantage of that unlimited whatever it is, not held back by pain or confusion or misunderstanding of my own or anyone else, I don’t really care about the details to be honest.  For me it all boils to being free to explore and expand for the rest of my existence safe in God’s love. I trust whatever he has waiting for me and everyone else. It makes sense we will have wonderful relationships, but it is very hard for me to extrapolate mortality on to eternity. 

Edited August 29, 2021 by Calm

[Calm]

Just now, Peacefully said:

I believe that I am perfectly imperfect. I am not perfect the way Christ was perfect but I’m the perfect me, lol. 

Whatever works for you.   

[Peacefully]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

Whatever works for you.   

Absolutely, and the same goes for you:) 

[rongo]

5 hours ago, kimpearson said:

I mentor parents of LGTBQ+ children who are trying to stay active or maintain positive connections with the Church.  I have been doing it for 8 years and our Facebook group has over 2,500 members and we are currently adding 10 to 20 people a week.  I have listened to almost everyone of these parents stories and the stories of their children.  My gay son came out at age 12 and quit attending at age 14.  I don't claim to know it all but I can share some things that I hear over and over that LGTBQ+ individuals want.

• This has always been a part of me.  God either put it in me, allowed it to be part of me or I brought this with me from the pre-existence.  It feels natural and its what influences my view of the world, my future and others the same way my fellow heterosexuals' members feel about their sexual attractions.  Please Church leaders explain this because saying we don't know or you will be fixed in the next life brings no comfort and in fact leads to thoughts that maybe I should end my life to get this fixed.

 

5 hours ago, kimpearson said:

 

• Please stop teaching in lesson after lesson that only those who marry the opposite sex in the temple get to go to the celestial kingdom and say nothing about what will happen to me.  It makes me feel like I am broken, an abomination or not wanted in the church as there is no real place for me.

I think the above points, bolded and underlined, are the biggest failings in how the Church has handled this issue. If God has been asked, really asked, and He has actually given no answer, that is one thing, but if not, what are prophets, seers, and revelators for? I'm not convinced that the prophets have sought for a definitive, revealed answer. I think B.H. Roberts's plea to the Q15 in 1922 (regarding the importance of definitive, revealed answers for Book of Mormon difficulties in coming years) can equally be applied to this and other crucial issues (many of which have been outsourced to academia in the Gospel Topics essays):

"What will the effect be upon our youth of such a confession of inability to give a more reasonable answer . . .? Will not the hoped for proof deferred indeed make the heart sick? … Again I ask, is silence our best answer? And again the question comes, can we remain silent in our age of free inquiry? …These questions are put by me at the close of this division of the ‘study’ not for self-embarrassment, surely, nor for the embarrassment of others, but to bring to the consciousness of myself and my brethren that we face grave difficulties in all these matters, and that if there is any way by which we may ‘find wisdom, and great treasures of knowledge, even hidden treasures’—-for I am sure that neither an appeal to the books written by men, nor even to the books of scripture now in our possession, will solve our present difficulties—then a most earnest appeal should be made to that source of wisdom and knowledge, and with a faith and persistence that will admit of no denial."

"If we cannot, what is to be the effect of it all upon the minds of our youth? What is to be our general standing before the enlightened opinion of mankind? Is silence to be our answer? Again will occur to thoughtful minds the difficulties attendant upon silence. In the last analysis of things silence would be acknowledgement of defeat. Silence in an age of free inquiry is impossible. An appeal to the old writers is of little value . . . To stand up and say to the modern world we place our revealed truth against all the evidence and deductions of your science, and await the vindication of new evidence yet to be discovered, is heroic; but is it, and will it be convincing? Most humbly, but also most anxiously, I await the further development of knowledge that will make it possible for us to give a reasonable answer to those who question us concerning the matters herein discussed."

I believe that God can and is willing to give definitive, revealed answers to this question. As your anecdotes point out, it isn't so much the Church's stance that is the problem for people struggling with this issue, it is that no attempt to give an answer --- and context for applying the answer --- is given. Throwing up our hands and saying "we just don't know" is very dissatisfying and disappointing in a church that emphasizes that we have modern prophets, seers, and revelators. I think revealed, definitive answers would go far towards helping many who want to believe and stay, but are struggling.

5 hours ago, kimpearson said:

 

• The Church keeps putting out examples [of gay people making it work in traditional Church families or celibacy] but after a period of time many of those examples can't keep doing it and quit and the church removes the example. 

This is a very big problem. The "back of the Ensign --- name withheld" examples people know personally longitudinally (over time) very often end up crashing and burning. There is just no way around that elephant in the room, and everyone knows it. I've seen this with people I know (some of whom had blogs and other things in the spotlight). My son's MTC teacher just came out as gay in response to Elder Holland's talk and the backlash (very supportive of the Church and the Church's stance. He is married and they are expecting their first child. I met them at his homecoming). We are really pulling for them, but the track record is not good with such things. 

 

Edited August 29, 2021 by rongo

[Calm]

I do have two other concerns with this “you are perfect just the way you are” and how it may work out for some, stuff I have seen happen, have no clue how common or uncommon it is.  
 

One person told this growing up was afraid of changing because then she might lose what made her perfect, would be less than perfect and not worthy of her parents’ love. Just because you tell your kid one message doesn’t meant it doesn’t get translated to another. Perfect As in high school, active in everything, terrified of university where she was then just one of many perfect students who were there no longer perfect since no longer too. 
 

Another’s body type changed from petite to tall and strong at puberty, she hated her ‘new’ body and felt like an alien even though everyone was telling her it was a perfect body for her. But her body before was her mind’s perfect body and she couldn’t reconcile the two.  Do not know if she eventually did or not. 
 

The other issue I see is if you tell someone they are perfect, but you don’t tie it to anything and you even tell them nothing they could do would change their perfection, then they may feel since their behaviour doesn’t have an effect on your feelings, they are more object and less individual to you. What matters to you is how you see them, not who they are.  
 

“Perfect” has so much baggage attached to it, it feels dangerous to be honest.  I grew up with perfectionists and have a strong streak that grinds its teeth having been benched due to my health, so that likely has a significant impact on how I view the word in relation to mortals.  I feel like it should be something we look forward to rather than try to find in mortality.  Perfection is a destination and we will lose so much if we either skip the journey as not needing it or only truly feel we live in the sparse perfect moments and not in the spaces between.

 

Edited August 29, 2021 by Calm

[Peacefully]

21 minutes ago, Calm said:

I do have two other concerns with this “you are perfect just the way you are” and how it may work out for some, stuff I have seen happen, have no clue how common or uncommon it is.  
 

One person told this growing up was afraid of changing because then she might lose what made her perfect, would be less than perfect and not worthy of her parents’ love. Just because you tell your kid one message doesn’t meant it doesn’t get translated to another. Perfect As in high school, active in everything, terrified of university where she was then just one of many perfect students who were there no longer perfect since no longer too. 
 

Another’s body type changed from petite to tall and strong at puberty, she hated her ‘new’ body and felt like an alien even though everyone was telling her it was a perfect body for her. But her body before was her mind’s perfect body and she couldn’t reconcile the two.  Do not know if she eventually did or not. 
 

The other issue I see is if you tell someone they are perfect, but you don’t tie it to anything and you even tell them nothing they could do would change their perfection, then they may feel since their behaviour doesn’t have an effect on your feelings, they are more object and less individual to you. What matters to you is how you see them, not who they are.  
 

“Perfect” has so much baggage attached to it, it feels dangerous to be honest.  I grew up with perfectionists and have a strong streak that grinds its teeth having been benched due to my health, so that likely has a significant impact on how I view the word in relation to mortals.  I feel like it should be something we look forward to rather than try to find in mortality.  Perfection is a destination and we will lose so much if we either skip the journey as not needing it or only truly feel we live in the sparse perfect moments and not in the spaces between.

 

I think I understand where you are coming from, but I just think we have a different view of “perfection.” As I explained earlier, telling my daughter her body was perfect the way it was really helped build her self esteem. I think there is a difference between saying you are perfect the way you are and expecting perfectionism. I’ve never been a perfectionist with myself or my kids, but I think they are pretty perfect:) 

[Navidad]

9 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

I’m kinda like calm. I get squeamish around the word “perfect.”

I would like to offer another perspective on the word "perfect." As I read posts here I think that the folks are defining "perfect" as not having flaws, imperfections of any kind. This kind of perfection is indeed impossible to obtain or achieve and is not something for which scripture teaches us to strive. That kind of perfection is a Gordian Knot.

The Greek word used for "perfect" in the Bible would best be translated "complete" - not "flawless." The atonement and the gospel offer us completion, not perfection. In the gospel one is made complete, not without imperfections. It is also why I prefer the dual concept of salvation and sanctification rather than salvation and exaltation. The more I grow in Christ (sanctification) the more I rely on Him for my perfection (completion). I can't correlate exaltation with that concept. Piety is intricately linked with humility and uncertainty, not some kind of aggrandizement (exaltation). Just my .02 cents. Thanks.

[The Nehor]

10 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Imagine someone coming to your door and promising a heaven where your opposite gender attraction struggles will be cured and you can spend eternity with someone of the same gender. Sound tempting?

How about we compromise and we all get two spouses, one male and one female? Then attraction just expands in the next life instead of being diminished.

[Bernard Gui]

15 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Or he stays and shows that it can be done since some are saying he won't be ex'd and the church can become a more welcoming place.

There are already those who who stay and show it can be done. I have given an example of one who has, but he gets no press.

Why would he be excommunicated?

A young adult member in a previous ward came out on the ward website. Not exactly the best place to do it, but that’s just my opinion. Eventually she went down the path she wanted, jettisoned the Church and family (which was supportive), and has become very bitter. That is one way to go. In contrast are those who stay such as my friend who after leaving the Church in anger adopted a very dangerous lifestyle, contracted AIDS, but eventually returned to the Church, and continues faithful today.