Covid cases, hospitalizations, death trends and other touchy subjects…

[Chum]

4 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

is the Constitution hanging by a thread

It seems odd to consider a temporary medical measure as a constitutional threat while the permanent and ongoing 4th amendment violations justified by the war on terror get a yawn and a hand wave. 

[The Nehor]

6 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

So with the CDC extending the moratorium on rental evictions against the ruling of the Supreme Court is the Constitution hanging by a thread now? Please no politics just a legal discussion.

Probably not. I don't think anyone has any delusions that it will survive a Supreme Court challenge. Most likely it is a stalling tactic to extend the moratorium long enough for Congress to act on it again or maybe just to last a little longer. There probably would be a constitutional crisis if there was an attempt to continue the moratorium after the courts rule against it. I don't see that happening.

[Harry T. Clark]

7 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Do you have answers to any of those questions. Nothing to discuss here.

Do you know who else talks only in questions like this?

Is it possible that ancient aliens helped the Egyptians build the pyramids?

It is a rhetorical technique that implies it is likely but when called out on the person can do the "just asking questions" bit. In other words it is cowardly. You aren't taking any stands. Just insinuating. Why do you lack confidence in what you are saying?

You're a real piece of work.  I wonder what life would be like for you if you couldn't hide behind name-calling and moderators here.

This last bit is because you can't respond to being called out and are hoping for a reaction that will allow your nannies to take action in your favor.  You probably pm'ed them already crying to them.  Take a look at "projection" and what it means in the psychology arena.

Poster removed

[Chum]

3 hours ago, Harry T. Clark said:

Your comment is disingenuous but who's looking?

You don't seem to be as that comment came out of nowhere at all.

[Calm]

 

21 minutes ago, Harry T. Clark said:

Yet, the mRNA vaccines cause cells to produce the spike protein in abundance.

https://www.nebraskamed.com/COVID/where-mrna-vaccines-and-spike-proteins-go
 

Quote

The Infectious Disease Society of America (IDSA) estimates that the spike proteins that were generated by COVID-19 vaccines last up to a few weeks, like other proteins made by the body. The immune system quickly identifies, attacks and destroys the spike proteins because it recognizes them as not part of you. This "learning the enemy" process is how the immune system figures out how to defeat the real coronavirus. It remembers what it saw and when you are exposed to coronavirus in the future it can rapidly mount an effective immune response

This would suggest that any issue due to spike proteins produced by vaccines would be seen quickly.  This does not mean there is no potential damage, just puts a limit on the time period it could be happening…useful for studying possible side effects. 

21 minutes ago, Harry T. Clark said:

Anyway, perhaps this has something to do with it?  https://www.salk.edu/news-release/the-novel-coronavirus-spike-protein-plays-additional-key-role-in-illness/

It turns out that the spike protein itself damages cells and causes disease.  Yet, the mRNA vaccines cause cells to produce the spike protein in abundance.  Is this a nothing burger or is there more to this as in did we make a mistake in having the spike protein be the basis of the vaccines?

Do you trust the article to be accurate in its claims?  I would assume that is why you chose to post it. Because it says this at the beginning:

Quote

Now, a major new study shows that the virus spike proteins (which behave very differently than those safely encoded by vaccines) also play a key role in the disease itself.

I would expect scientists familiar with the spike protein effect would realize the potential for harm you appear to believe this evidence suggests as a possibility. That there is no mention of such a caution being implied by the findings in this paper is significant, imo. 

Edited August 8, 2021 by Calm

[Chum]

3 hours ago, Harry T. Clark said:

It is too early to tell whether or not the mRNA vaccines will act as advertised

Nope. The immediate and profound reduction in rates of Covid by folks who got mRNA doses is textbook evidence that they are working as advertised - nearly to the given efficacy percentile.

[The Nehor]

5 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Good thing we didn't have his attitude when the polio vaccine was created.

Covid is new. Polio was a scourge that everyone feared. I wish we had more media covering what a horrible way to die Covid offers and covering survivors who are still dealing with Covid aftereffects long after the disease is gone and may have to deal with them for the rest of their lives. We don't. A lot of that is due to privacy reasons. Maybe if Covid caused really ugly boils or something? I don't know. Covid just doesn't have anything that viscerally scares humans like so many other diseases do.

[Tacenda]

7 minutes ago, Harry T. Clark said:

You're a real piece of work.  I wonder what life would be like for you if you couldn't hide behind name-calling and moderators here.

This last bit is because you can't respond to being called out and are hoping for a reaction that will allow your nannies to take action in your favor.  You probably pm'ed them already crying to them.  Take a look at "projection" and what it means in the psychology arena.

Nehor can handle you w/o any of us. 

And I'd be afraid for Nehor if he gave his real name out to you.

[The Nehor]

4 minutes ago, Harry T. Clark said:

You're a real piece of work.  I wonder what life would be like for you if you couldn't hide behind name-calling and moderators here.

Like it is for me all over the internet where I discuss this stuff in many venues? I even (don't tell anyone) go outside in the real world sometimes.

7 minutes ago, Harry T. Clark said:

This last bit is because you can't respond to being called out and are hoping for a reaction that will allow your nannies to take action in your favor.  You probably pm'ed them already crying to them.  Take a look at "projection" and what it means in the psychology arena.

LOL, okay you glorious martyr in the cause of spreading plague. Need to find a safe space to preach the gospel of death?

Be proud of your stance instead of slipping into this "woe is me, everyone is against me" rubbish.

Remember what you are fighting for man:

[Calm]

 

 

24 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

So with the CDC extending the moratorium on rental evictions against the ruling of the Supreme Court is the Constitution hanging by a thread now? Please no politics just a legal discussion.

Not getting the connection…unless you mean property owners are facing restrictions on what they can do with their property. 
 

If so, can you explain why you see extending restrictions to eviction as a possible significant threat to the Constitution given there have been other restrictions in place for some time?

Even if it gets ruled eventually the CDC doesn’t have that authority, if I understand the debate correctly, it wouldn’t prevent Congress from making similar restrictions. But it is not something I have researched, so I may be missing your point. 

https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/04/politics/supreme-court-cdc-eviction-moratorium/index.html

[rodheadlee]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

 

 

Not getting the connection…unless you mean property owners are facing restrictions on what they can do with their property. 
 

If so, can you explain why you see extending restrictions to eviction as a possible significant threat to the Constitution given there have been other restrictions in place for some time?

Even if it gets ruled eventually the CDC doesn’t have that authority, if I understand the debate correctly, it wouldn’t prevent Congress from making similar restrictions. But it is not something I have researched, so I may be missing your point. 

https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/04/politics/supreme-court-cdc-eviction-moratorium/index.html

Yes. That is exactly the problem. It is the seizure of private property,  albeit temporarily. If property owners can't make their payments and default due to the CDC moratorium then they can lose their property. 

I was hoping Spencer would chime in here. 

[3DOP]

Time will tell which scientists and medical professionals were correct about the covid vaccines. For me, there are Traditional Catholics who think it is morally unacceptable because of connections to aborted fetal cells. I tend to agree with others in my religious circle that for a sufficient reason, being freely persuaded that it is medically prudent, the vaccine is morally acceptable. But I have concerns from information or misinformation that I have seen which make me concerned about possible long term side effects and heart problems. Finally, and most importantly, I do not fear getting the Covid virus very much. Of course I do not want it. But clearly, this is not like the "Black Death" of the 14th Century which decimated Europe. The survival rate is quite high in fact. Anecdotally, my mother, who has always had asthma, and had been diagnosed with lung cancer at 85 years old, survived Covid, before passing away a few months later in hospice from the cancer that had spread through her body.

I cannot seem to get past the hysteria from the so-called "Death-Vaxxers", or the "anti-Vaxxers" to have a reasonable discussion. I want to talk to the "Anti-Vaxxers" in my circles about the difference between remote and proximate cooperation with abortion. It is difficult. I am in the middle. I doubt that the vaccination is sinful. But I think my Catholic friends should be permitted to abstain from taking it if they take a different position. Medically, everyone should be free to choose if they are unpersuaded by the pope, politicians, or drug companies to take the vaccine. Many of the Catholic bishops go so far as to insist that to fail to take the vaccine is to violate the 5th Commandment (Thou shalt not kill). The only medically competent of the parties mentioned is monetarily compromised. I don't trust any of them to advise me medically at this time.

It appears to me that the medical community is like my religion. My religion is divided on the moral questions. The medical community seems divided on on the medical necessity and safety of the vaccines. Why is it not okay for me to be agnostic about the medical side of things until the hysteria dies down in regards to the consequences of the vaccines? I think I know one answer. Some say that the vaccine only works if it is taken by everybody. That is not going to happen. Another reason for me to disregard the vaccine for now, is that it doesn't even protect me unless ALL of my fellow Catholics, who in good conscience refuse it on moral grounds, suddenly decide to take it. 

-----------------             

I started to make a post in the Social Forum yesterday after finishing a book. Assisted, it is called, about John Stockton, the former Utah Jazz Hall of Fame guard. He is from my home state and lives in Spokane near to where my son lives who got me the book for my birthday. I thought it was very well done and could be interesting to some here both for its basketball in Utah, as well as John's appreciation for the LDS he met, and John's love for Utah, his "second home", as a Catholic. It made me wish I had pulled for him, Karl, "Horny", and Jerry Sloan in those two epic championships in the 90's. The kids liked Michael and the Bulls though, and I pulled for Chicago for their sake. While looking up stats and video highlights online, I saw that John had recently participated in a documentary that sounded some warning about the vaccines. I feared that any thread I started about somebody who was "Anti-Vaxx", would preclude the idea that I wanted to present, my new found admiration for an all-around good guy and example, and a terrific competitor and athlete. 

Thanks, especially if you non-hysterically disagree with my concerns, but try to understand my position. God bless.

Rory

 

Edited August 8, 2021 by 3DOP

[Calm]

23 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Covid just doesn't have anything that viscerally scares humans like so many other diseases do.

Which is weird to me because the stories of patients struggling to breathe were very disturbing to me. But I guess having this happening in closed units makes it less real for people.  Or maybe they are too good at making patients comfortable that people just think they wouldn’t be suffering all that much as they would be knocked out. 
 

If by chance I get it and get put on a ventilator, I wonder if I could do a living will allowing it to be live streamed.  I kind of lost my last embarrassment with the delivery of my daughter when it felt like half the hospital was causally walking through my room including the bathroom.  (She was under stress so they had me hooked up to lots of stuff and thus had company everywhere I went…still don’t know why they left the bathroom door open or why a janitor came in to check in the middle of it all, but didn’t care by that point)
 

But I am unlikely to be the first willing to let it all hang out. There must be something else preventing hospitals from allowing it.

[Calm]

7 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

If property owners can't make their payments and default due to the CDC moratorium then they can lose their property.

I would have thought the eviction moratorium would apply to property owners defaulting as well. It is just logical if rent is not coming in, they would often not be able to pay on mortgages. Am I wrong?

[Calm]

19 minutes ago, 3DOP said:

Another reason for me to disregard the vaccine for now, is that it doesn't even protect me unless ALL of my fellow Catholics, who in good conscience refuse it on moral grounds, suddenly decide to take it. 

Not exactly. It may not prevent you from getting the Delta variant, but it is highly effective in preventing serious symptoms, hospitalizations, and death.  It is going to do that even if no one you knew also took it.

Also it is not all, but it does need to be significantly more than the current percentage unfortunately. Due to the higher rate of transmission of Delta, the number needs to be higher than needed for the earlier variants, up to 80 or 90%, which leaves more than enough room for those who are medically at risk with vaccines not to have to take it, but I don’t know if the 10% would be enough for those with religious objections.

I agree religious beliefs deserve great respect even when there is disagreement about them.  Believing one is acting against the will of God is massive, even when we know we give into temptation and sin daily.  
 

Plus how does one prove what the will of God is?  You can often demonstrate the truth or lack thereof of medical claims for those refusing something because they believe the science shows certain effects…though such may illogically be rejected. 

Edited August 8, 2021 by Calm

[The Nehor]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

Which is weird to me because the stories of patients struggling to breathe were very disturbing to me. But I guess having this happening in closed units makes it less real for people.  Or maybe they are too good at making patients comfortable that people just think they wouldn’t be suffering all that much as they would be knocked out. 
 

If by chance I get it and get put on a ventilator, I wonder if I could do a living will allowing it to be live streamed.  I kind of lost my last embarrassment with the delivery of my daughter when it felt like half the hospital was causally walking through my room including the bathroom.  (She was under stress so they had me hooked up to lots of stuff and thus had company everywhere I went…still don’t know why they left the bathroom door open or why a janitor came in to check in the middle of it all, but didn’t care by that point)
 

But I am unlikely to be the first willing to let it all hang out. There must be something else preventing hospitals from allowing it.

I found the nightmare reality and psychological aftereffects many describe after being on a ventilator to be horrifying.

Pregnancy isn’t contagious.  

When someone is dying of Covid the family is sometimes brought in to say goodbye but through a window. It is probably not much comfort.

[Harry T. Clark]

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

 

https://www.nebraskamed.com/COVID/where-mrna-vaccines-and-spike-proteins-go
 

This would suggest that any issue due to spike proteins produced by vaccines would be seen quickly.  This does not mean there is no potential damage, just puts a limit on the time period it could be happening…useful for studying possible side effects. 

Do you trust the article to be accurate in its claims?  I would assume that is why you chose to post it. Because it says this at the beginning:

 

Here is the paper:

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2020/12/04/2020.12.04.409144.full.pdf

Also, here is a link to the original article prior to the uproar.  The sentence about the supposed different spike protein was added after the fact and without any support:

http://web.archive.org/web/20210430171112/https://www.salk.edu/news-release/the-novel-coronavirus-spike-protein-plays-additional-key-role-in-illness/

The paper shows that there is a problem with the spike protein that the vaccines cause cells to make.  Given all the adverse reactions to the vaccine, given that they are circulatory in nature, it seems like the caveat is problematic.

 

[rodheadlee]

27 minutes ago, Calm said:

I would have thought the eviction moratorium would apply to property owners defaulting as well. It is just logical if rent is not coming in, they would often not be able to pay on mortgages. Am I wrong?

I don't know. 

[Calm]

32 minutes ago, Harry T. Clark said:

The sentence about the supposed different spike protein was added after the fact and without any support:

This may have been because the authors believe their paper is being misused and wanted to quickly deal with that. 

And without support…maybe because it was obvious to them why there wasn’t an issue because they aren’t the same thing. Hopefully further clarification will come out for those of us less up on the differences, including if my speculation is wrong and the authors are concerned, but someone else added the disclaimer.

Quote

 

The paper shows that there is a problem with the spike protein that the vaccines cause cells to make

You haven’t convinced me the paper is talking about the same thing. 
 

Is there a reference in the paper that makes this clear?

Edited August 8, 2021 by Calm

[Ipod Touch]

WEAR A MASK!  It is a matter of life and death.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9874533/The-party-continues-Obamas-60th-celebrations-roll-day-birthday-brunch-Oprah.html

Edited August 8, 2021 by Ipod Touch

[The Nehor]

50 minutes ago, Harry T. Clark said:

Here is the paper:

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2020/12/04/2020.12.04.409144.full.pdf

Also, here is a link to the original article prior to the uproar.  The sentence about the supposed different spike protein was added after the fact and without any support:

http://web.archive.org/web/20210430171112/https://www.salk.edu/news-release/the-novel-coronavirus-spike-protein-plays-additional-key-role-in-illness/

The paper shows that there is a problem with the spike protein that the vaccines cause cells to make.  Given all the adverse reactions to the vaccine, given that they are circulatory in nature, it seems like the caveat is problematic.

 

https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-vaccine-safe/fact-check-no-evidence-spike-proteins-from-covid-19-vaccines-are-toxic-idUSL2N2NX1J6

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Good thing we didn't have his attitude when the polio vaccine was created.

They should have been more careful with the polio vaccine. The caution approving this vaccine for children may be a result from some of the issues with approaches of the past.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2020/04/14/cutter-polio-vaccine-paralyzed-children-coronavirus/

My neighbor likely got polio from one of the vaccines being tested originally. I haven’t been able to find info confirming his account, but he says out of his kindergarten class only 4 survived and he was the only one still walking a few years later.  He isn’t lying, but I don’t know who told him the info, if it is childhood memories or documented (I see it as possible that his class got a placebo and then were decimated by polio in the community) …but I suspect his family might be among those waiting to see with the Covid vaccine (they moved a few years ago to a home without stairs, so I haven’t been able to ask him for further info…never occurred to me his story would become relevant to the here and now in this way).

Protocol for testing was very different back then. 
 

I am sharing this information to show it isn’t a black and white issue. I understand why people are concerned, especially communities that have been used as test groups inappropriately. There is good reason why there is huge worries for some. 
 

We can’t ignore the mistakes of the past, but we also need to be realistic and accurate about what is happening now. 

Edited August 8, 2021 by Calm

[Calm]

20 minutes ago, Ipod Touch said:

WEAR A MASK!  It is a matter of life and death.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9874533/The-party-continues-Obamas-60th-celebrations-roll-day-birthday-brunch-Oprah.html

Notice it is outside…I still would avoid the crowd (as is advised by the CDC) myself, but it makes a massive difference in level of risk. 
 

And bad PR move given how so many aren’t paying attention to the details, like the difference between indoors and outdoors.

In contrast, the venues of the Provincetown superspreader event were described as indoors.

Would be interesting to know if they required vaccinations. 

Edited August 8, 2021 by Calm

[Raingirl]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Which is weird to me because the stories of patients struggling to breathe were very disturbing to me. But I guess having this happening in closed units makes it less real for people.  Or maybe they are too good at making patients comfortable that people just think they wouldn’t be suffering all that much as they would be knocked out. 
 

If by chance I get it and get put on a ventilator, I wonder if I could do a living will allowing it to be live streamed.  I kind of lost my last embarrassment with the delivery of my daughter when it felt like half the hospital was causally walking through my room including the bathroom.  (She was under stress so they had me hooked up to lots of stuff and thus had company everywhere I went…still don’t know why they left the bathroom door open or why a janitor came in to check in the middle of it all, but didn’t care by that point)
 

But I am unlikely to be the first willing to let it all hang out. There must be something else preventing hospitals from allowing it.

A high school classmate of mine worked for three weeks in a Covid unit in New York at the beginning of the pandemic. She’s a RN. She said that dying from Covid is a truly horrible death.  
 

By the way, she also said there were multiple deaths every shift. That just doesn’t happen with other diseases on on other wards. 

[Ipod Touch]

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

And bad PR move given how so many aren’t paying attention to the details, like the difference between indoors and outdoors.

I mentioned this elsewhere but this is one reason the messaging around masks and the vaccine have been so bad.  Especially in the age of the Internet, you can't have pictures of politicians and other elites going around showing that they aren't following their own orders.