New Book on Polygamy

[mfbukowski]

9 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

You said that a woman not posting as ‘meanly’ as you is proof they are kinder. I am countering that they probably would if female anger was not so often treated with patronizing condescension.

Ok thanks,I get your point now.

Disagree, but understand it

[bluebell]

27 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Are you being more gentle than I was? Of course because you are a woman.

[mfbukowski]

8 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

It's been ingrained in our religion that it is so.

No, I was not even raised in "your" religion.

 Everybody knows this but will not say it.

 It's time to get back to common sense.

I feel deep sorrow for my contribution to the way this society has gone since the 1960s.

 It is of course absurd the way women have been discriminated against and marginalized but it is time to face the facts that we are different kinds of beings, yin and yang, a dialectic.

As Sr. Eubanks says, a couple is a "divine pair".

She is so dang brilliant, amazing person!

[mfbukowski]

10 minutes ago, bluebell said:

 

[ttribe]

4 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

No, I was not even raised in "your" religion.

 Everybody knows this but will not say it.

 It's time to get back to common sense.

I feel deep sorrow for my contribution to the way this society has gone since the 1960s.

 It is of course absurd the way women have been discriminated against and marginalized but it is time to face the facts that we are different kinds of beings, yin and yang, a dialectic.

As Sr. Eubanks says, a couple is a "divine pair".

She is so dang brilliant, amazing person!

"Don't believe in the 60's
"The golden age of pop
"You glorify the past
"When the future dries up
"Heard a singer on the radio late last night
"He says he's gonna kick the darkness
"'Til it bleeds daylight
"I... I believe in love"    -   Paul Hewson

[mfbukowski]

14 hours ago, Calm said:

5) women are on the fast track, with eyes focused on the core principles and not distracted by the bells and whistles and have moved on to the next stage after exaltation quickly and are off having fun with God the Mother and participating in what she, the Father, and the Son have planned for us once the basic stuff gets taken care of while the men are spending their time in the CK drawing up charts on where they fit into the hierarchy and figuring out how many more children they need to add downline to move up to the next level of exaltation 

So glad to know you are on my side.

 

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

And yet you seem to remember the one punch in seventh grade a lot clearer than "the load" of emotional hurts.

Violence is "masculine" and considered less civilized than emotional reactions

Women are the civilizing force in humanity, the nurturing creative side

Not at all. My 7th grade friend was dealing with a lot at home and had insecurities, I found out later in life that she was sexually abused by her step father. And BTW, her sister came out that he abused her and he was let go as being a highly thought of police officer and then demoted to be a security guard. My friend Patty's mom, stood by her step father not her own daughter. I remember he took me on a police call one night, I was in high school, don't know why I was alone with him, but did a subtle hit on me, but didn't quite know back then what to think about it. So I get that you'll point out that a man did this. But women have abused their children sexually as well.

When my family moved to a new town when I just started high school, a girl that didn't know me from Adam started a terrible rumor about me and it was the start of my deep insecurities that will forever stay with me. I use to be a person that would make friends easily and would go up to people and say hi in school. But after what this girl did, I no longer felt safe around women. Another one that hit me square in the gut (not literally), was a friend's sister that started at a job I was at that came up to me and told me there was a rumor in high school that I was prostituting myself. I wasn't wild or anything, nothing that could give someone pause, nothing to grant such a vicious lie that I had no idea about. I was hopeful that many in my high school class saw my wedding announcement in the local paper that I was married in the temple. And wouldn't believe in the stupid rumor, hopefully. 

Like bluebell brought up the movie, "Mean Girls". Women can be far meaner than men at times. That most of the time are well hidden, since women are not suppose to act that way. Throughout these arguments on the board that we have gotten in about the subject, if you read my comments, I always say how my experience with men has been better than with women. 

ETA: It's suddenly hit me...I wonder why I don't have many close friends. I've always felt self conscience about it, wondering why. And wow, now I realize a lot. 

ETA again: No more posts available, used them up for the day. If MF sees this, I understand that men can be harmful more than women it would seem. I don't know the statistics but they probably favor your side. And come to think of it. If it makes you happier and many men out there that women are so good or better than men, maybe it helps you believe in a good world. And I won't try to take that away. 

@mfbukowskiHere's an article that explains some things. https://nikitaccoulombe.medium.com/we-think-women-are-better-people-but-theyre-not-f5ddd72ed7bd

Edited August 6, 2021 by Tacenda

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Yes, definitely. I was being a jerk in retrospect.

Is this post nicer than mine?

Is it more conciliatory, reasonable, and logical?

Are you being more gentle than I was? Of course because you are a woman.

I don't think you are aware of how condescending it is anytime a man implies that he understands women better than women understand women.  I'm not sure how you can't be aware of it, but for some reason you don't seem to be.

And, this post above is really patronizing.   It's just...ugh.  My post was logical, and I did keep a reasonable tone, but neither of those things are more pervasive in women than men.  But there was nothing in my post that was 'nice' or 'conciliatory' or 'gentle'.  Placating you and being nice about it were not even on my radar with that post.  

I saw what looked to me to be a flaw in your argument and I pointed it out.  What is "womanly" about that?  

 

[bluebell]

27 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Not at all. My 7th grade friend was dealing with a lot at home and had insecurities, I found out later in life that she was sexually abused by her step father. And BTW, her sister came out that he abused her and he was let go as being a highly thought of police officer and then demoted to be a security guard. My friend Patty's mom, stood by her step father not her own daughter. I remember he took me on a police call one night, I was in high school, don't know why I was alone with him, but did a subtle hit on me, but didn't quite know back then what to think about it. So I get that you'll point out that a man did this. But women have abused their children sexually as well.

When my family moved to a new town when I just started high school, a girl that didn't know me from Adam started a terrible rumor about me and it was the start of my deep insecurities that will forever stay with me. I use to be a person that would make friends easily and would go up to people and say hi in school. But after what this girl did, I no longer felt safe around women. Another one that hit me square in the gut (not literally), was a friend's sister that started at a job I was at that came up to me and told me there was a rumor in high school that I was prostituting myself. I wasn't wild or anything, nothing that could give someone pause, nothing to grant such a vicious lie that I had no idea about. I was hopeful that many in my high school class saw my wedding announcement in the local paper that I was married in the temple. And wouldn't believe in the stupid rumor, hopefully. 

Like bluebell brought up the movie, "Mean Girls". Women can be far meaner than men at times. That most of the time are well hidden, since women are not suppose to act that way. Throughout these arguments on the board that we have gotten in about the subject, if you read my comments, I always say how my experience with men has been better than with women. 

ETA: It's suddenly hit me...I wonder why I don't have many close friends. I've always felt self conscience about it, wondering why. And wow, now I realize a lot. 

ETA again: No more posts available, used them up for the day. If MF sees this, I understand that men can be harmful more than women it would seem. I don't know the statistics but they probably favor your side. And come to think of it. If it makes you happier and many men out there that women are so good or better than men, maybe it helps you believe in a good world. And I won't try to take that away. 

I don't know any women personally (where we've talked about such things) that don't still have some emotional and mental scars they are dealing with from their interactions with girls during their teen years.

[ksfisher]

37 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Like bluebell brought up the movie, "Mean Girls". Women can be far meaner than men at times. That most of the time are well hidden, since women are not suppose to act that way. Throughout these arguments on the board that we have gotten in about the subject, if you read my comments, I always say how my experience with men has been better than with women. 

This seems to be true from what I understand of studies I've read.  Both men and women show aggression, but in different ways. 

[Calm]

nvm

Edited August 6, 2021 by Calm

[mfbukowski]

59 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

This seems to be true from what I understand of studies I've read.  Both men and women show aggression, but in different ways. 

That's the whole point!

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

I don't think you are aware of how condescending it is anytime a man implies that he understands women better than women understand women.  I'm not sure how you can't be aware of it, but for some reason you don't seem to be.

And, this post above is really patronizing.   It's just...ugh.  My post was logical, and I did keep a reasonable tone, but neither of those things are more pervasive in women than men.  But there was nothing in my post that was 'nice' or 'conciliatory' or 'gentle'.  Placating you and being nice about it were not even on my radar with that post.  

I saw what looked to me to be a flaw in your argument and I pointed it out.  What is "womanly" about that?  

 

Absolutely nothing.  Women and men are exactly the same.  How foolish I was to bring it up yet again.

I mentioned the avalanche, and here it is as predicted.   I have made my point.

[T-Shirt]

I don't believe I've ever seen an argument where each side is trying to out "evil" each other.

[bluebell]

18 minutes ago, T-Shirt said:

I don't believe I've ever seen an argument where each side is trying to out "evil" each other.

My argument is that men and women are equally evil, and therefore equally good.  

[bluebell]

36 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Absolutely nothing.  Women and men are exactly the same.  How foolish I was to bring it up yet again.

I mentioned the avalanche, and here it is as predicted.   I have made my point.

What avalanche?  Two-three people disagree with you and that’s an avalanche?  😂

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Agree, although, I had a 7th grade best friend that out of the blue punched me in the stomach. And a load of other women or even women friends that have hurt me emotionally. 

Oh yeah. Out of the handful of people I truly hate in this world, all but one is female. Manipulative, abusive witches. 
 

Can you believe I was actually grateful my daughter was too sick so she couldn’t attend junior high and high school so she avoided most of the younger versions before she developed an ability to distance herself when needed. Unfortunately there was still the one who had caused her very tight group of friends in 6th grade (they had grown up with each other since kindergarten as only one English class in the school for their grade most years) to randomly turn on one of their own just because the queen bee wanted to show her power and drove the girl to move out of the school. Totally shut down a bubbly, outgoing sweet girl. I was mortified I had been clueless. My daughter had bee too scared to tell me. 
 

Of the ten or so girls in the group, my daughter was the only one to apologize after it happened and try to repair her relationship.  I didn’t find out until the end of the year what had happened and couldn’t do anything else about it.  My daughter had a hole in her soul that she had gone along with it;  I was dumbfounded she had, but fear is a strong motivator for bad behavior. 
 

 I had lived in a great deal of fear that the queen bee would turn on my daughter before that as she was the next closest to the most popular girl and had been extra nice to her as room mother over the years. That girl scared me, flashbacks I guess to being the outsider.  The queen bee used her own relationship with the most popular girl (the parents knew each other, went to the same church, the two girls did much together) to rule the hive, along with the usual intimidation. She got to say who was friends with whom. 
 

In talking with teachers in my daughter’s schools, this was well known behaviour among girls and all voted who I knew that 8th grade girls were the worst class they ever taught and all but one man avoided them when they could (apparently he was amused by viciousness)…teachers dreaded them. If boys got angry at their friends, they would blow up and then be playing the next time they wanted a baseball game, I was told, while the girls would hold grudges and make their friends now enemies suffer for years. 
 

My ward in Canada was pretty great except it allowed one woman to dominate the non church social life. I had never been in a ward where members did so much together for fun…as long as you were on the approved list.  Parties were primarily held at her home and if you weren’t on her friend list, no invites at all. (Several parties a year, both my husband and I were very active in church and I even had two close friends and he had tons and yet not one invite in the 15 years we lived there because imo I never put in any effort to make nice to the queen bee as there was nothing appealing in her personality to me that I could see nor did I treat her son who was the age of my son special). Even the men followed the rules, if the wives weren’t part of the inner circle, husbands weren’t invited to go do guy stuff in the mountains, etc. They weren’t even invited to help with Scouts.  Even if you were best friends otherwise, you didn’t invite your best friend along to the group stuff from what I saw. The only reason we knew parties were going on was all the talk about how great they were the following Sundays at church.  
 

Thankfully never saw another woman with such iron control over a ward. Its closeness otherwise was probably what made it possible. There have been in each ward I have been in smaller groups like that and in each ward I have heard the horror stories at least once about some girl and her mom driving other girls into inactivity.  Maybe it happens with the young men and men, but I didn’t see it in my son’s groups (there were outsiders but they were socially awkward boys from dysfunctional families) and my husband never reported such. 

Edited August 6, 2021 by Calm

[mfbukowski]

3 minutes ago, bluebell said:

What avalanche?  Two-three people disagree with you and that’s an avalanche?  😂

But as is evident even with this post, it never stops.

But yes I agree it is only a few people, it's just the volume of........ posts they can turn out, that have nothing to do with the central point,  that is remarkable. 

[SeekingUnderstanding]

 

7 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

But as is evident even with this post, it never stops.

But yes I agree it is only a few people, it's just the volume of........ posts they can turn out, that have nothing to do with the central point,  that is remarkable. 

Maybe you should try putting up a coherent argument for your point. Or at least respond coherently to other people’s counter points. Instead you belittle those that disagree with you in a condescending manner. Your point is obviously true to those that are smart enough to see it 🙄. 

Edited August 6, 2021 by SeekingUnderstanding

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

I don't know any women personally (where we've talked about such things) that don't still have some emotional and mental scars they are dealing with from their interactions with girls during their teen years.

Me neither and I have a fair number of female friends and two sisters I am close to. They are all well-adjusted (now) but they have scars and will share them if they trust you enough. 

[Calm]

4 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I use to be a person that would make friends easily and would go up to people and say hi in school

When I was in 6th grade, I lived for 4 months in the middle of the school year with my grandmother. When I came back, I was ignored for the next year and a half until we moved even by my supposedly best friend who lived next door and who had been in and out of my home for the 4 years we had lived there (granted we were friends more because of location than personality, but it was still weird***).  That was when I shifted to being terminally shy. Sitting alone at school suddenly when before I was included was a major shock to the emotional system. I lost faith in myself, thought I just wasn’t interesting enough.  Still get flashes of that, still can’t invite myself to join in with whatever a crowd I am with is doing, still wait for the invite to be a part of it even when I see no one else needing one. 
 

When we went to Russia for a semester, when my son (8th grade) came back it was like he had never left. 

***What was even more weird to me was later after we had moved out to California from Illinois, she came out to visit relatives and wanted to visit with me as well. Or maybe her family suggested it. Whatever reason, she expressed that she was hurt I hadn’t kept much in touch with her (a few letters at most) or shown much interest in her life, like her relationship with her boyfriend (who had been in both of our minds a real jerk before the time at Grandma’s, so I was actually restraining myself from saying ‘why are you lowering yourself?’).  
 

That she saw me as the one not interested…I now know that is pretty typical, but I wasn’t the one who had no longer moved over to make space at lunch and I wasn’t about to forget that. 

Edited August 6, 2021 by Calm

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Absolutely nothing.  Women and men are exactly the same.  How foolish I was to bring it up yet again.

I mentioned the avalanche, and here it is as predicted.   I have made my point.

The irony is that that is NOT what is being argued.

You are arguing that there are some inherent virtues women are better at. The counter is that masculine and feminine virtues and vices are often expressed differently. Women are socialized to put up a front of virtue when interacting with men and many men can’t recognize the version of the vice they use. The same happens in reverse.

I remember when I was dating someone and one of my best friends was dumped by his fiancée in an embarrassing and abrupt manner. He was crushed. I sent him a text letting him know I cared and was there if he wanted to talk. My gf at the time was flabbergasted thinking I was an uncaring friend and devoid of compassion. We talked and I explained that often the best thing for a guy in pain is to leave him alone to wallow and start to heal. A couple of days later I took him out to an all you can eat place and we gorged ourselves and shared morbid thoughts and toasted the end of the world a lot.

These differences are complementary but I am not convinced by any scripture or by experience that either gender is more disposed to virtue or vice. The difference between the divine masculine and divine feminine would probably blow us away in ways we do not comprehend. I do think the General Conference talks about how wonderful women are and are disposed to virtue come from gratitude and a desire to help but I have seen them do damage. I have also seen them elicit a lot of eye-rolling.

[Calm]

44 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

But as is evident even with this post, it never stops.

Why would it stop when you keep making comments?  Generally conversations happen that way. Would you prefer if someone chooses to ignore what you say?

Maybe it doesn’t stop because you don’t stop and I don’t stop. I know why I don’t. I literally don’t have anyone else to talk most of the time due to being in bed all day. This board keeps me from going out of my head with boredom. Reading and watching videos only goes so far. I want social interaction, responses to my thoughts. 
 

I am also obsessive (have been to some extent all my life) when it comes to problems. I was taught to keep at something until it was solved. When a conversation here is not finished, I will keep at it until it feels finished or the other disappears.  I am also someone who knows what it feels like to be ignored way too much and I am also driven to answer people so they don’t wonder if they have been heard. It can come across as needing to be the last one to say something unfortunately. 
 

Takes forever for me and my sister to say goodbye to each other in texts, though they get down to a work or a smilie. Sometimes to stop the routine I tell her I am not going to respond to the next “have a good day” just so she knows I am not ignoring her nor have missed her text. 
 

So now you know that about me, you should know you shouldn’t assume something is an issue for me just because I keep talking about it.  Big chance I am even struggling to find something to say if it has gone on long enough….thus the off topic rambling I get into. 
 

I don’t know why you don’t stop though.  Hopefully you have many other choices how to spend your time. 

Edited August 6, 2021 by Calm

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

 

Maybe you should try putting up a coherent argument for your point. Or at least respond coherently to other people’s counter points. Instead you belittle those that disagree with you in a condescending manner. Your point is obviously true to those that are smart enough to see it 🙄. 

I have no arguments, I just have a fact.

The requirements for a given blessing are different for men than women.

Fact.

Did God make a mistake, or did he have a reason for that fact.?

I gave my opinion of why he did so.

No arguments.

One fact, one opinion.

All the chatter in the world cannot change either. It's totally obvious.

I have seen no arguments countering either the fact or the opinion.

 

 

 

[Ipod Touch]

I'm glad we are finally discussing an idea that seems taboo: women are just as depraved and evil as men.

I mean, 1/2 of all serial killers are women.

1/2 of all child abusers are women.

1/2 of all spouse abusers are women.

Oh wait...