The Paul H Dunn-ing of President Nelson

[Esrom]

On 7/29/2021 at 7:55 PM, smac97 said:

Very helpful stuff.  Thanks for sharing!

-Smac

I agree, too bad this info couldn't get into the greedy hands of those doing gloating podcasts and YouTube videos.  

[Calm]

42 minutes ago, mgy401 said:

Again, I see this as a quite innocent manifestation of the way human memories tend to evolve over time.  Not particularly earthshaking stuff to Latter-day Saints who have already dealt with and reconciled similar issues involving Joseph Smith’s various accounts of the First Vision.

He was unlikely shy about handing his BoM out even if his only copy, I would guess.  Probably lots of stories with shared details and different ones.  Easy to blend together the further one gets from the time.  Dad mixed up my slightly older sister and I at times in his stories or assumed we were both there when we weren’t because we were always together when he was there for much of our youth and adult life until my sister moved close by and I moved far off.

Edited July 31, 2021 by Calm

[Calm]

9 hours ago, Teancum said:

Here is a summary of another story that President Nelson as well as his wife seem to have embellished. FWIW.

It was a home invasion, that is agreed upon, correct?

I have read about occasions where women are kidnapped in the area, though more recent…sounds like there is a long history there.

Couldn’t it have been a randomly chosen house (the next house a gang member could get hired on as a guard at) and therefore not targeted in that sense, but the intent was to kidnap women found there as the more vulnerable and easier to control hostage for ransom exchange?  Or at least use that as a threat as part of the robbery?  
 

Haven’t looked at if this was a common practice there, though it sounds like invasions were from the comment about how typically machetes were used, but it is not a stretch to imagine that would be one purpose in a country known for abductions of women and children now or a victim to assume threats were real.

I will see if I can find more about the history of abductions in the area.

Even if an abduction wasn’t planned, does anyone doubt threats were made and perhaps one that stuck out in Sister Nelson’s mind was one along the lines of “we are here to take you away unless…”. It was the wife of the MP who suffered the broken arm and if that came due to a threatening attack intended to stop any resistance, the likelihood that threats were made to another woman present, ones she took seriously due to the violent nature of those present, makes sense.

https://www.ksl.com/article/6660347/lds-church-apostle-his-wife-and-2-other-couples-attacked-in-mozambique

Quote

The mission home before the current one got broken into and the Church-employed guards were there all day. One of the three guards they employed had orchestrated the whole thing," Hill said. "When you hear of something happening in the neighborhood, as you're there, it's usually with a machete."

 

Also there was speculation that one of the guards hired to protect them was part of the gang.  If this was told to the Nelsons as a fact (wonder where it came from) the house was targeted means the occupants were targeted…maybe not because of who they were besides wealthy, but if the guard/gang member knew who they were and that was mentioned, not surprising if the Nelsons assumed targeting where the MP likely knew it was unfortunately a common occurrence or perhaps was informed by police the gang just chose the house randomly.  
 

http://mormonism-unveiled.blogspot.com/2009/06/maputo-lds-mission-president-blair.html

Quote

The Packards also wrote, "Elder and Sister Nelson were not specifically targeted or that this was any act against the Church. Some have speculated that our guards were involved. They were not.". They also wrote that their 9-year-old daughter, Lindy, their housekeeper and her baby boy are safe; the two children hid in a closet.

Finally, the Packards confirmed what has been said earlier, that "Home invasions and armed confrontations are not common. We have had one missionary apartment burglarized in recent weeks but have had no other incidents ... in over a year and a half." This assessment was somewhat corroborated by Kent Larsen on Times and Seasons.

After the incident, Elder Nelson met with the missionaries. He and his wife have since departed Mozambique and returned to Salt Lake, having concluded their assignment on the other side of the world.

This account mostly confirms what was previously reported. It's no surprise Mozambique isn't as subject to home invasions as South Africa; its population density is only 65 people per square mile. In contrast, South Africa's population density is 101 people per square mile, and it has a much more diverse and volatile mix. So, as confirmed by two sources, LDS men need not fear being called to a mission in Mozambique.

 

I see it as possible the speculation came from others who had the wrong info…young missionaries are known for passing around stories, but it would be easy to take such as fact if one was a victim. 

And the idea that because usually it was machetes used means no guns ever is a stretch to me.  Guns are certainly being used less than 10 years after that event (can’t do custom dating, so pulling up crimes where machetes were used and guns are also mentioned).

Quote

I expected the president to greet him like a friend, but he stood by the door, and instead, the mission president's wife — who I call a hero — said, 'This is a robbery!' "

After she informed her guests of the situation, Cindy Packard, the mission president's wife, ran outside to shout, "Robber! Robber!" in Portuguese. She was the only one in the group who could speak the language well, Sister Nelson said, and her efforts summoned help and "brought the hideous situation to a close."

Cindy Packard, however, suffered a broken arm during the attack. Others in the group suffered some superficial injuries, mainly cuts and bruises.

Sister Nelson said the attempted robbery and abduction was a sobering experience that confirms that "life is a spook alley," but she said she takes comfort in the scripture that advises the righteous to "fear not what man can do."

https://www.deseret.com/2009/11/15/20352883/apostle-s-wife-felt-comfort-despite-attack
 

So Sister Nelson didn’t understand the language of the invaders and would have had to guess most likely from gestures or what Sister Packard, as the one most familiar with the language, shared.  Perhaps attention was focused on Pres. Nelson as the one others paid deference to as the invaders had taken time to observe the group before busting into the dining area or herself as his wife being seen as his vulnerability.

I find it interesting in contrast to those claiming Sister Nelson was embellishing a la Dunn, that she herself is focused on the heroism of Sister Packard and teaching a lesson of being vigilant of our environment and possible threats in it, unlike her in that moment.  Yes, she felt peaceful and grateful for that, but she did nothing heroic with that peace, it was a blessing for her alone.  In fact, the last comment quoted almost sounds like she was chiding herself for her slow reactions at the time, unlike the saving, heroic choices of Sister Packard.  

Quote

We need to be like her and get over it (being slow to take action). Our spiritual strength of the past won't be enough in the future….

 

Edited July 31, 2021 by Calm

[rodheadlee]

Good grief. 

[Esrom]

On 7/29/2021 at 12:25 AM, The Nehor said:

If the church had pulled them you would be complaining we were covering them up.

That's exactly it.  They can never come out on top.  Just like If they don't do enough humanitarian aid, they're unchristian. If they do more, it's for promotion and a photo op.  If they reach out to lgbt members, they're manipulating.  If they don't, they're cold and heartless.  If they expand female opportunities to serve, they're desperate.  If they don't, they're mysognists.  It gets really old.

[Calm]

Guns common enough in 2009 Mozambique to warrant gun disarmament programs…sounds like a great idea actually.

https://www.voanews.com/archive/small-arms-africa-mozambiques-artful-disarmament

https://www.oikoumene.org/news/transforming-guns-into-hoes

Quote

Access and analysis of information is very limited and therefore it is impossible to observe diversion from legal to illegal users, or to conduct international tracing cooperation with law enforcement agencies on a regional basis. Moreover, Incidences of armed violence involving government and private security company owned weapons “rented” for use by criminals are on the increase as noted by the Police Commissioner in 2006. Greater controls and responsibility for firearms owners are required. The national firearms register structure is also an obligation of the UN Programme of Action and SADC Firearms Protocols to which GoM is signatory.

https://info.undp.org/docs/pdc/Documents/MOZ/00050733_2009 Annual Report to BCPR- UNDP Mozambique MA SALW.pdf

Edited July 31, 2021 by Calm

[Amulek]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

Military hospital, right?  Wonder if the uniform was the same outside of work.

My aunt works at the hospital, not as a nurse. But if someone just hears the hospital bit, they assume nurse. Seen this happened with women who are doctors as well as support staff. 

Yes, it was a military hospital: Walter Reed Army Hospital in Washington, D.C.

And it was roughly 70 years ago. 

Others may feel differently, but I certainly don't feel like it was a "fabrication" on Elder Nelson's part to describe someone who was working at the hospital back then (who wasn't a doctor) as a nurse - even if their exact title / position happened to be something else. Who would even know what the difference was and what difference would it make to anyone (other than the most ardent of critics)? 

You know, I remember spending some time with a loved one at a hospital late one night, and one of the night staff came in to administer a breathing treatment. We had a nice conversation and I discovered that we were both from the same home town. I considered it something of a 'tender mercy' to have met someone I had a connection with, and I was able to have a really nice conversation which helped lift my spirits.

Now, if decades from now I were to tell someone about how I remember meeting a night nurse from my hometown during that hospital stay...and a critic were to dig through records and discover that said individual was technically a respiratory therapist (and not a nurse)...and then went on to tell everyone how I was a liar, fabricator, Paul H Dunn-er, etc. I would think that such a person was seriously unhinged. And should probably consider seeing a doctor himself. 

 

[Thinking]

  

On 7/29/2021 at 11:37 PM, helix said:

Yet nobody will explain how a heart surgeon managed to repeat proper procedure for a propeller aircraft engine fire.  So tell me, how did he know this?  If there was no engine fire, how did Nelson know that a pilot should shut off engine fuel, then engage in a steep banked spiral descent to extinguish the fire, and then land at an emergency airstrip? 

Let's see. A heart surgeon is an educated man. He could have looked it up.

When was the first time that Elder Nelson told the story? Did he have enough time between the actual flight and the first telling to learn the proper procedures and add those procedures to the story?

[Amulek]

5 hours ago, Thinking said:

Let's see. A heart surgeon is an educated man. He could have looked it up.

When was the first time that Elder Nelson told the story? Did he have enough time between the actual flight and the first telling to learn the proper procedures and add those procedures to the story?

Holy. Crap. 

I usually wander away from this board over the weekends, but I'm really glad I checked in this morning.

Because this is going to make me smile. All. Day. Long.

That someone could, with a straight face, suggest there is any real possibility that Elder Nelson uses his spare time (which, as an apostle, is practically non-existent) researching and familiarizing himself with the emergency landing procedures of light aircraft just so he can weave those details into a personal story that hardly anyone has heard about is...you know...actually, I honestly don't know that I've even got the words to express how ridiculous that sounds. 

I think it's time for you to take your razor back to master Occam - it is in desperate need of sharpening. 

 

[bluebell]

On 7/28/2021 at 11:47 AM, cinepro said:

As someone who understands (just a little) how memory works, I don't find these discoveries about the stories to be surprising or disturbing. I find them to be expected. In fact, I would be more surprised if objective investigation showed the memories to be absolutely accurate. That would be unexpected!

You may find the discussion around the Brian Williams situation (the NBC news anchor who had his career destroyed over an inaccurate memory) to be relevant:
 

Scientists explain how Brian Williams’ memory may have failed him

 

The science behind Brian Williams’s mortifying memory flub

The topic of memory is fascinating to me.  Most people don't understand how memory works at all, or how easily memory is re-written the more we try to remember something.

A person who is cheating on their spouse will end up with altered memories that help to justify the act.  They will remember things that never happened, or remember them in a different way (that the spouse was unhappy, or mean, etc.), because it protects them from the guilt they would otherwise experience.  This happens even if the spouse knows what they are doing is wrong and in no way justified.  

It's so interesting and also disconcerting, because we put so much stock into our and others recollections.

[Chum]

2 minutes ago, bluebell said:

A person who is cheating on their spouse will end up with altered memories that help to justify the act.  They will remember things that never happened, or remember them in a different way (that the spouse was unhappy, or mean, etc.), because it protects them from the guilt they would otherwise experience.  This happens even if the spouse knows what they are doing is wrong and in no way justified.  

My ex did all this. The thing is, her reasons for rewriting history were entirely in her head.  She certainly got no harsh judgment from us. We were all too busy being relieved that she wasn't around.

[bluebell]

4 minutes ago, Chum said:

My ex did all this. The thing is, her reasons for rewriting history were entirely in her head.  She certainly got no harsh judgment from us. We were all too busy being relieved that she wasn't around.

I have a friend who this happened to, and the interesting part was that as her husband went through the repentance process, his original memories came back.  It really helped him.   And it helped his wife when he was able to sincerely acknowledge his flawed thinking.

[Chum]

On 7/31/2021 at 2:17 PM, bluebell said:

 And it helped his wife when he was able to sincerely acknowledge his flawed thinking.

My ex quickly comes around when I gently, kindly remind her of our history. Then about 45 seconds later she's back where she was. Her stream of consciousness doesn't limit itself to any sort of river bed.

[cinepro]

To add on to my original comment about Nelson's memories (and Brian Williams'), I will note that it appears Paul H. Dunn's problems were a bit more than faulty memories. His memories were so far off of what he experienced, it would be bordering on delusional for him to have believed those stories really could have happened. I mean, how do you accidentally mis-remember playing pro baseball?

[Stargazer]

On 7/30/2021 at 10:02 AM, Bob Crockett said:

Idiocy.  Guy doing a podcast in his car?  

Why not? It's not unknown, and can be quite legitimate. An examples:

Viva Frei - a Montreal litigator (lawyer) turned YouTuber - he has almost 375k subscribers, so not a noob - beginning with the Covid lockdown he started doing his podcasts in his car because with his kids home from school he had a hard time finding an uninterrupted quiet space. Since his YouTube channel is his principle income source now, it's important for him to post daily. Here's a typical one, where he posts that he is running for Parliament: I'm Running for Parliament!

I've run into others. 

[Calm]

I see a number of reporters doing it…easier to do then set up a camera, stand in front of it, and risk having someone else ruin the take. (Saw a recent one where two guys come up and start making inappropriate comments to a female POC reporter and she even had a cameraman with her).

Some were extended reports, but not sure qualifies as podcasting.
 

Some podcasting is meant to be spur of the moment, ‘this thought or experience just occurred to me (the podcaster)’.  That makes sense to me as well to be frequently in the car. 

Edited August 2, 2021 by Calm

[secondclasscitizen]

2 hours ago, cinepro said:

To add on to my original comment about Nelson's memories (and Brian Williams'), I will note that it appears Paul H. Dunn's problems were a bit more than faulty memories. His memories were so far off of what he experienced, it would be bordering on delusional for him to have believed those stories really could have happened. I mean, how do you accidentally mis-remember playing pro baseball?

Or your best friend in the marines riddled with bullets and dying in your arms. Oh yea that guy never died or lay in the arms of Paul h Dunn riddled with bullet holes.

[Fair Dinkum]

duplicate

Edited August 2, 2021 by Fair Dinkum

[bluebell]

12 hours ago, cinepro said:

To add on to my original comment about Nelson's memories (and Brian Williams'), I will note that it appears Paul H. Dunn's problems were a bit more than faulty memories. His memories were so far off of what he experienced, it would be bordering on delusional for him to have believed those stories really could have happened. I mean, how do you accidentally mis-remember playing pro baseball?

I think the only way would be because of mental health issues.  My uncle is bi-polar and who knows what else and he does this, where he'll tell stories about being a green beret in vietnam and doing all sorts of crazy stuff and none of it happened, though he sincerely thinks it did.

But as far as I know there is no evidence that Paul H. Dunn had mental health struggles.

[Fair Dinkum]

12 hours ago, cinepro said:

To add on to my original comment about Nelson's memories (and Brian Williams'), I will note that it appears Paul H. Dunn's problems were a bit more than faulty memories. His memories were so far off of what he experienced, it would be bordering on delusional for him to have believed those stories really could have happened. I mean, how do you accidentally mis-remember playing pro baseball?

Perhaps President Nelson had misremembered an episode of the Twilight Zone

[Tacenda]

3 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I think the only way would be because of mental health issues.  My uncle is bi-polar and who knows what else and he does this, where he'll tell stories about being a green beret in vietnam and doing all sorts of crazy stuff and none of it happened, though he sincerely thinks it did.

But as far as I know there is no evidence that Paul H. Dunn had mental health struggles.

I believe many in his age group or throughout time, in the church, like to tell faith promoting stories that sometimes let the line between truth and lie become very fuzzy. 

Edited August 2, 2021 by Tacenda

[Fair Dinkum]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I believe many in his age group or throughout time, in the church, like to tell faith promoting stories that sometimes let the line between truth and lie become very fuzzy. 

We are talking about men who view the world through the lens of miracles.  I think President Nelson is especially susceptible to this worldview and sees miracles everywhere.  So even a simple engine malfunction with a routine cautionary landing becomes a fiery spiraling death dive onto a farmers field.  It has to be embellished to make it a great conference story in order to promote faith and teach the intended lesson of the benefits of keeping covenants (one of Pres. Nelson's favorite subjects).  The story the facts support wouldn't have achieved it's intended purpose.

 

Edited August 2, 2021 by Fair Dinkum

[bluebell]

9 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said:

We are talking about men who view the world through the lens of miracles.  I think President Nelson is especially susceptible to this worldview and sees miracles everywhere.  So even a simple engine malfunction with a routine cautionary landing becomes a fiery spiraling death dive onto a farmers field.  It has to be embellished to make it a great conference story in order to promote faith and teach the intended lesson of the benefits of keeping covenants (one of Pres. Nelson's favorite subjects).  The story the facts support wouldn't have achieved it's intended purpose.

 

If this is true for people like him though, then the opposite is true for those who see the world through a skeptics or doubting lense.  They are also especially susceptible to specific biases and also tend to see those everywhere.  Experiences that don't fit their world view likewise have to be changed or told in a different way in order to promote their personal truth. 

 

[cfi]

On 7/30/2021 at 4:05 AM, Calm said:

Very helpful thank you. Any chance you have a link you could provide for those would like documentation since you don’t have an history in this board?  We like references even when we know people.   

Under the current rules for notifying the NTSB, found in 49 CFR 850.5, the incident described by Pres. Nelson does not require notification (or investigation). Rules in effect back then were likely similar. Commercial operators also have additional rules, call "Ops Specs", which may include the reporting of incidents and accidents, but these are specific to each operator. I have no way of finding this for a defunct operator from the 1970s, but this is likely why there was any report to the CAB at all.

49 CFR 830.5

Helix did post a link to the standard reference on airplane emergency procedures, the FAA's Airplane Flying Handbook. It covers general procedures not specific to any airplane.

Airplane Flying Handbook chapter 17

Government-written texts are often insomnia-inducing, so here's an easier-to-read article on the subject:

How to Fly an Emergency Descent

Each make & model of airplane has its own specific procedures, spelled out in the checklists contained in the Pilot's Operating Handbook. A quick google search failed to find one for the PA-31, but here's the checklist for my airplane. Note that it lists only airplane-specific details. It is assumed the pilot knows the general procedure (i.e. this checklist gives specific configuration items, but does not mention a spiraling descent, because the pilot should already know that).

 

[Fair Dinkum]

26 minutes ago, bluebell said:

If this is true for people like him though, then the opposite is true for those who see the world through a skeptics or doubting lense.  They are also especially susceptible to specific biases and also tend to see those everywhere.  Experiences that don't fit their world view likewise have to be changed or told in a different way in order to promote their personal truth. 

 

I agree. I have noticed this in myself as I've moved from a believing to a secular worldview.  What I used to see as miraculous, I now see through naturally occurring eyes.  Take our rain storm from last night.  Not too long ago I would have seen this as an answer to our collective prayers for deliverance from the drought.  I now recognize that we're in a drought and that every single year we get these monsoonal rain patterns where rains move up from the south in this same manner year over year pattern.  Every year at the end of July early August we get these rains.  It was a welcome relief but nothing miraculous or unexpected and had nothing, in my mind, to do with prayer.