Popular Post InCognitus Posted July 3, 2021 Popular Post Posted July 3, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, secondclasscitizen said: The church historian at the time admitted so because they didn’t want to cause mass faith crisis or something like that. That is deceptive, it is dishonest and it is essentially hiding information. I just learned this morning, from a prior bishop in our ward, about some of the secrets that the church has been hiding from its members for years. The biggest secret was the location of the thermostat to turn on the air conditioning for the bathrooms in our building. The bathrooms are located at the side of the building by one of the side entrances, but the thermostat to the bathrooms is hidden way in the back of the building in one of the smaller classrooms! I can tell you that I was shocked! I nearly left the church over the hot bathrooms in our building and into the air conditioned comfort of my car! Even though I didn't lose faith in the church, I did lose my faith in the designers of he building. What were they thinking?? But on a more serious note, do you really think the church was trying to hide the gospel topic essays? Why would they put them up on their web site if they were trying to hide them? And now with the "Becoming like God" gospel topic essay missing, and after helping a client recover data from a ransomware attack this last week, and after reading the news about the ransomware attacks, I'm starting to think that the Russians hackers are holding the "Becoming Like God" topic for ransom. Don't they know the ransom for that has already been paid in full? Edited July 3, 2021 by InCognitus 9
Popular Post Calm Posted July 3, 2021 Popular Post Posted July 3, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, InCognitus said: But on a more serious note, do you really think the church was trying to hide the gospel topic essays? A soft launch is not hiding something, otherwise businesses using soft launches would be self sabotaging. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soft_launch Some publication at time of release… https://www.deseret.com/2013/12/9/20531144/lds-church-enhances-web-pages-on-its-history-doctrine https://www.deseret.com/2014/5/20/20541758/official-lds-essay-details-violent-acts-against-and-by-mormons-during-1800s https://www.deseret.com/2014/6/8/20542854/lds-blacks-scholars-cheer-church-s-essay-on-priesthood https://www.deseret.com/2014/10/22/20551032/lds-church-publishes-two-new-essays-on-past-history-of-plural-marriage https://www.deseret.com/2014/10/25/20551279/polygamy-essays-provide-information-about-early-lds-church-and-current-leadership https://www.deseret.com/2015/10/23/20575045/lds-church-releases-new-essays-about-women-and-the-priesthood-and-heavenly-mother Other times mentioned during release period: https://www.deseret.com/2014/9/24/20549218/lds-church-history-museum-to-close-for-yearlong-renovation-new-emphasis https://www.deseret.com/2014/6/11/20543136/two-mormon-activists-say-they-are-facing-church-discipline https://www.deseret.com/2014/11/12/20552564/with-railways-religion-and-fevers-keep-things-steady Edited July 3, 2021 by Calm 6
mfbukowski Posted July 3, 2021 Posted July 3, 2021 23 hours ago, Calm said: FYI, still available in Gospel Library app. You are amazing! 2
Popular Post Kenngo1969 Posted July 4, 2021 Popular Post Posted July 4, 2021 2 hours ago, secondclasscitizen said: Well the rollout of the essays themselves was done in a manner to not draw attention to them. Then, as I believe others have pointed out, why bother posting them on a public website at all. 2 hours ago, secondclasscitizen said: The church historian at the time admitted so because they didn’t want to cause mass faith crisis or something like that. "Or something" gets my vote. 2 hours ago, secondclasscitizen said: That is deceptive, it is dishonest and it is essentially hiding information. This, it would seem, is proof positive that the Church of Jesus Christ and its leaders cannot win: Don't post something and the Church of Jesus Christ will be accused of "deception," of "dishonesty," and of "essentially hiding information." Do post it ... on a public website ... and the Church of Jesus Christ will be accused of "deception," of "dishonesty," and of "essentially hiding information." 2 hours ago, secondclasscitizen said: It’s one thing if they provided a year long educational curriculum to let us know about all the stuff that has been lied about ... You seem determined to paint whatever the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does in the worst possible light. That's unfortunate. 2 hours ago, secondclasscitizen said: but instead they chose to just silently stick it somewhere because the discipleship in the church is pretty much a lazy bunch and will never see it. You're tarring millions of people, most of whom you don't even know, with a pretty broad brush, there. Again, I think that is—to say the least—unfortunate. Perhaps, as others have pointed out, since 90-95% of faithful members in the Church of Jesus Christ do not or will not have problems with the things discussed in the Gospel Topics essays, a better approach would be to let Bishops, Stake Presidents, and Area Leadership know about them so that when they counsel folks who do have problems or questions, they will be able to refer them to the essays. 2 hours ago, secondclasscitizen said: They were right about that. Most members I know who I have mentioned the esssys to had never even heard of them and they have been out for what ? Seven years?! I think you need to make the case that the Essays are intended for the general membership of the Church of Jesus Christ, and you have not done so. 2 hours ago, secondclasscitizen said: Yea the church is deceptive and I’m not off base on sssuming that whenever I feel like it. "'Second Class Citizen' is prone to making wild accusations that are rooted primarily in emotional appeals and that lack substance." For the record, with the exception of some of the things you've posted in this thread, while I disagree with a number of the things you have posted, no, I don't think that this thread is indicative of your posting style overall, and if someone were to make that accusation, I would defend you against it. 2 hours ago, secondclasscitizen said: They have proven themselves readily willing to do that. Something about the truth not being very useful at times lol. Well the chickens are coming home to roost. Context is everything. If I were to say that, in this thread, "Second Class Citizen" leveled an emotional appeal against the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints because of the Gospel Topics Essays, I think I would be pretty accurate. If, however, I were to say that what he has done in this thread, somehow, is indicative of his posting style overall, that wouldn't be fair, and I don't think it would be accurate. Whether one considers "the truth" to be "useful" or not might depend nearly entirely upon what he is trying to do with it. And none of us—not you, not me, not Boyd K. Packer, no one—sees things as they are. Rather, we see things as we are. 6
mfbukowski Posted July 4, 2021 Posted July 4, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said: And none of us—not you, not me, not Boyd K. Packer, no one—sees things as they are. Rather, we see things as we are. Frame 20 or so of these, and put them on each wall of every house in Zion. Let it be written, Let it be done. Oh I forgot we are not in Zion yet. 😠 And I am not Pharaoh. Details, details! 🥴 Edited July 4, 2021 by mfbukowski
secondclasscitizen Posted July 4, 2021 Author Posted July 4, 2021 4 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said: You're tarring millions of people, most of whom you don't even know, with a pretty broad brush, there. Again, I think that is—to say the least—unfortunate. Perhaps, as others have pointed out, since 90-95% of faithful members in the Church of Jesus Christ do not or will not have problems with the things discussed in the Gospel Topics essays, a better approach would be to let Bishops, Stake Presidents, and Area Leadership know about them so that when they counsel folks who do have problems or questions, they will be able to refer them to the essays. TArring millions as lazy? Im not the one who got up in General Conference calling people lazy disciples. 90-95%? Yea of course that is what they would say. About that many don't have the gumption to even stand up to their bishop if he is wrong much less challenge the machine.
Popular Post OGHoosier Posted July 4, 2021 Popular Post Posted July 4, 2021 (edited) 26 minutes ago, secondclasscitizen said: TArring millions as lazy? Im not the one who got up in General Conference calling people lazy disciples. 90-95%? Yea of course that is what they would say. About that many don't have the gumption to even stand up to their bishop if he is wrong much less challenge the machine. K. Edit: Actually, you know what? I retract my K because I'm frankly done with the hijacking of President Nelson's words, and I'm especially tired of the appropriation of those remarks for rhetorical clout. Let's look at the controversial remark, shall we? Quote Your mountains may be loneliness, doubt, illness, or other personal problems. Your mountains will vary, and yet the answer to each of your challenges is to increase your faith. That takes work. Lazy learners and lax disciples will always struggle to muster even a particle of faith. To do anything well requires effort. Becoming a true disciple of Jesus Christ is no exception. Increasing your faith and trust in Him takes effort. May I offer five suggestions to help you develop that faith and trust. - Russell M. Nelson, "Christ is Risen; Faith in Him Will Move Mountains" https://abn.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2021/04/49nelson?lang=eng Borrowing from my brief training in philosophy and rhetoric, I'll break the offending sentence down into atomic sentences. Let A represent the phrase "lazy learners and lax disciples" and B represent the phrase "struggles to muster faith." With that done, what Nelson says is "if A, then B." Or, in formal notation, A-> B. A standard entailment relation. Such an entailment relation is unidirectional, however. A -> B does not imply the inverse, B -> A. Nelson is accused of saying that everyone who lacks faith is a lazy learner or a lax disciple. That would be represented by B -> A (struggles to muster faith -> lazy learner or lax disciple). However, by the rules of logic, A-> B (which is what he said) does not imply B->A. Yet all I hear, over and over again, is that Nelson said B->A. Enough. Edited July 4, 2021 by OGHoosier 9
secondclasscitizen Posted July 4, 2021 Author Posted July 4, 2021 (edited) 37 minutes ago, OGHoosier said: Edited July 4, 2021 by secondclasscitizen Deletion
secondclasscitizen Posted July 4, 2021 Author Posted July 4, 2021 39 minutes ago, OGHoosier said: K. Edit: Actually, you know what? I retract my K because I'm frankly done with the hijacking of President Nelson's words, and I'm especially tired of the appropriation of those remarks for rhetorical clout. Let's look at the controversial remark, shall we? Borrowing from my brief training in philosophy and rhetoric, I'll break the offending sentence down into atomic sentences. Let A represent the phrase "lazy learners and lax disciples" and B represent the phrase "struggles to muster faith." With that done, what Nelson says is "if A, then B." Or, in formal notation, A-> B. A standard entailment relation. Such an entailment relation is unidirectional, however. A -> B does not imply the inverse, B -> A. Nelson is accused of saying that everyone who lacks faith is a lazy learner or a lax disciple. That would be represented by B -> A (struggles to muster faith -> lazy learner or lax disciple). However, by the rules of logic, A-> B (which is what he said) does not imply B->A. Yet all I hear, over and over again, is that Nelson said B->A. Enough. Yelling at me like an angry mom is not gonna get good results- bye
Calm Posted July 4, 2021 Posted July 4, 2021 1 hour ago, secondclasscitizen said: Yelling at me like an angry mom is not gonna get good results- bye Overreact much? 4
Rain Posted July 4, 2021 Posted July 4, 2021 14 hours ago, secondclasscitizen said: Yelling at me like an angry mom is not gonna get good results- bye I'm a little confused (honestly) . Would you share the specific words that make you feel like he was yelling at you and angry? I'm not seeing it and am wondering how we see it differently. 2
secondclasscitizen Posted July 4, 2021 Author Posted July 4, 2021 6 minutes ago, Rain said: I'm a little confused (honestly) . Would you share the specific words that make you feel like he was yelling at you and angry? I'm not seeing it and am wondering how we see it differently. “K. Edit: Actually, you know what? I retract my K because I'm frankly done with the hijacking of President Nelson's words, and I'm especially tired of the appropriation of those remarks for rhetorical clout. Let's look at the controversial remark, shall we?” When one starts a response like this they are “yelling.” This isn’t a discussion it is a lecture.
Stargazer Posted July 4, 2021 Posted July 4, 2021 On 7/3/2021 at 4:19 PM, secondclasscitizen said: Probably just incompetence. I just don’t rule out unannounced changes because that is a common practice. Even competent people make mistakes sometimes. I am a retired software developer. There is no developer on the planet who doesn't goof up occasionally. 1
Rain Posted July 4, 2021 Posted July 4, 2021 29 minutes ago, secondclasscitizen said: “K. Edit: Actually, you know what? I retract my K because I'm frankly done with the hijacking of President Nelson's words, and I'm especially tired of the appropriation of those remarks for rhetorical clout. Let's look at the controversial remark, shall we?” When one starts a response like this they are “yelling.” This isn’t a discussion it is a lecture. Thank you. It makes you feel like you are being set down.
mfbukowski Posted July 4, 2021 Posted July 4, 2021 14 hours ago, Calm said: Overreact much? Sounds like projection to me
Calm Posted July 4, 2021 Posted July 4, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, secondclasscitizen said: “K. Edit: Actually, you know what? I retract my K because I'm frankly done with the hijacking of President Nelson's words, and I'm especially tired of the appropriation of those remarks for rhetorical clout. Let's look at the controversial remark, shall we?” When one starts a response like this they are “yelling.” This isn’t a discussion it is a lecture. Yeah, overreaction. Expressed frustration, sarcasm, patronizing, or even lecturing is not inherently ‘loud’. This is yelling online style: CAN YOU HEAR ME NOW? Edited July 4, 2021 by Calm 1
secondclasscitizen Posted July 5, 2021 Author Posted July 5, 2021 On 7/3/2021 at 10:13 AM, TheTanakas said: Maybe they should rephrase the essay to "Becoming a god" as the previous Gospel Principles taught. https://ia800509.us.archive.org/27/items/GospelPrinciples1997/Gospel Principles 1997.pdf All good things come from God. Everything that he does is to help his children become like him—a god Pete Yep definitely says “become gods.” So I take it that has changed?
Calm Posted July 5, 2021 Posted July 5, 2021 (edited) 40 minutes ago, secondclasscitizen said: Yep definitely says “become gods.” So I take it that has changed? Going off of memory and it has been over a decade (did an in-depth analysis on this when it came out on the board with Dr. Streuss, but can’t find the thread…may have been deleted), the newer Gospel Principles manual is much reduced and a lot of repetition eliminated, so there was one section that no longer had a reference, but the concept was still present elsewhere in the manual where it had been previously mentioned. The Exaltation chapter of the Gospel Principles Manual on the GL app still says “They will become gods”. Edited July 5, 2021 by Calm
Calm Posted July 5, 2021 Posted July 5, 2021 (edited) I noticed the url has an “abn” at the beginning for the essays…anyone know the significance of that? It is on some pages, but not others for the website. A very brief check seems to indicate it is used for scriptures and the gospel topic section and maybe other parts of the “libraries” menu. Edited July 5, 2021 by Calm
JustAnAustralian Posted July 5, 2021 Posted July 5, 2021 26 minutes ago, Calm said: I noticed the url has an “abn” at the beginning for the essays…anyone know the significance of that? From what I understand it's part of A-B testing. So they have several versions of the website in use at the same time, and show different versions to different people and monitor how people navigate around, time spend on pages etc, to work out which is more efficient and better liked. 1
Calm Posted July 6, 2021 Posted July 6, 2021 (edited) 27 minutes ago, JustAnAustralian said: From what I understand it's part of A-B testing. So they have several versions of the website in use at the same time, and show different versions to different people and monitor how people navigate around, time spend on pages etc, to work out which is more efficient and better liked. That would explain why some are seeing the circular link and others are not. And maybe why the glitch has not been altered as it will get dumped eventually and they have too much to deal with as it is with the monitoring. But if it doesn’t work, that defeats the purpose of the testing unless that section isn’t part of the monitoring….too bad I can’t mind read long distance as now I am getting curious. Edited July 6, 2021 by Calm
Esrom Posted July 8, 2021 Posted July 8, 2021 The essay link works now. People freak out about things like there's always some deep conspiracy under way.
smac97 Posted July 8, 2021 Posted July 8, 2021 38 minutes ago, Esrom said: The essay link works now. People freak out about things like there's always some deep conspiracy under way. I'm curious about dead links pertaining to FARMS content. Is that still going on? Does anyone know? From Daniel Peterson in June 2019. Thanks, -Smac
Tacenda Posted July 9, 2021 Posted July 9, 2021 5 hours ago, smac97 said: I'm curious about dead links pertaining to FARMS content. Is that still going on? Does anyone know? From Daniel Peterson in June 2019. Thanks, -Smac Why do you think this is so? Could the church have had something to do with it, or the leaders?
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