Queer member speaking at byu women's conference

[juliann]

1 minute ago, The Nehor said:

Booooo!!!!!

More seriously: BOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!

Also, I doubt it. I find it hard to believe that God would make such a big deal about it if it is just part of an animal nature that vanishes at death. You must learn to control this urge that will eventually go away! I have no idea if sex as we know it exists in the eternal realms but if it doesn't there is something better there. I don't expect God to take away my love of swimming and floating in water or my love of high winds in my face. Sensual experiences are not bad. They might be less than other experiences but the lesser has its place. Then again I expect those other enjoyments have higher expressions as well.

Haha. The point is that this is every bit as much of a possibility as the other scenarios presented that are based on very limited information. Plus, it solves several boxes we have backed ourselves into when we have conflicting information but choose to privilege only some of it. 

[Peacefully]

I’m not sure why we get so hung up on the sex act itself when discussing eternal partnership. Maybe it is because many of us come from a Puritanical mindset where the physical act of sex was considered a bit “dirty.“ However, most married, heterosexual couples don’t spend the majority of their together time having sex. There is a lot of time spent just getting through the daily grind or just talking and making plans that brings us closer together and helps us form deep connections that we hope will last through the eternities. I bet it is the same for gay couples. They aren’t just forging a bond through sexual relations, they are forging it through day to day living. It seems very dismissive, and without empathy, to expect them to jump for joy at the prospect of not being with their sweetheart in the next life. Somehow, it’s ok for heterosexual couples to want to be together forever, but not gay couples? This is very hard for me to get my head around, so I’ve quit trying. 

Edited May 2, 2021 by Peacefully

[juliann]

48 minutes ago, Peacefully said:

I’m not sure why we get so hung up on the sex act itself when discussing eternal partnership. Maybe it is because many of us come from a Puritanical mindset where the physical act of sex was considered a bit “dirty.“ However, most married, heterosexual couples don’t spend the majority of their together time having sex. There is a lot of time spent just getting through the daily grind or just talking and making plans that brings us closer together and helps us form deep connections that we hope will last through the eternities. I bet it is the same for gay couples. They aren’t just forging a bond through sexual relations, they are forging it through day to day living. It seems very dismissive, and without empathy, to expect them to jump for joy at the prospect of not being with their sweetheart in the next life. Somehow, it’s ok for heterosexual couples to want to be together forever, but not gay couples? This is very hard for me to get my head around, so I’ve quit trying. 

We teach "charity" as the Bible does. It is not a sexually motivated love for a select one, with a selected family group that excludes all others.  We have a huge and I mean huge problem with that when we insist on ever so exclusive eternal honeymoon cottages. If this idea is true, it means God most definitely has a favorite person. It takes down the whole idea of charity. I think we imagine it as sitting in ivory towers with our selected special ones and dispensing "love" from on high. That is not Biblical. It is not gospel centered. 

[longview]

2 hours ago, Peacefully said:

It seems very dismissive, and without empathy, to expect them to jump for joy at the prospect of not being with their sweetheart in the next life. Somehow, it’s ok for heterosexual couples to want to be together forever, but not gay couples? This is very hard for me to get my head around, so I’ve quit trying. 

If people do not believe the doctrines elucidated in the Proclamation of the Family, they are certainly free to form their own associations in the telestial kingdom.  They can refuse to enter the Celestial Kingdom if they are NOT interested in the work God is doing.  My thought is there is an infinity of intelligences out there waiting to become spirit children.  The Love of God is so great that He deeply desires as many of us to literally become like Him and to expand the work.  Thus increasing exponentially the number of Heavenly Parents.  The scriptures make it clear - - -

1 Corinthians 11:11. Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.

[Duncan]

35 minutes ago, longview said:

If people do not believe the doctrines elucidated in the Proclamation of the Family, they are certainly free to form their own associations in the telestial kingdom.  They can refuse to enter the Celestial Kingdom if they are NOT interested in the work God is doing.  My thought is there is an infinity of intelligences out there waiting to become spirit children.  The Love of God is so great that He deeply desires as many of us to literally become like Him and to expand the work.  Thus increasing exponentially the number of Heavenly Parents.  The scriptures make it clear - - -

1 Corinthians 11:11. Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.

None of any of your ideas here are "elucidated" in either the POF or the scriptures, except the idea of God's love for all of his children and wanting us to become like him

Edited May 2, 2021 by Duncan

[longview]

49 minutes ago, Duncan said:

None of any of your ideas here are "elucidated" in either the POF or the scriptures, except the idea of God's love for all of his children and wanting us to become like him

Then you have no conception of the Temple marriage and covenant between man and woman and God in the Eternities.

[Duncan]

1 hour ago, longview said:

Then you have no conception of the Temple marriage and covenant between man and woman and God in the Eternities.

you are a lousy teacher of your distortions

Edited May 2, 2021 by Duncan

[Peacefully]

1 hour ago, longview said:

If people do not believe the doctrines elucidated in the Proclamation of the Family, they are certainly free to form their own associations in the telestial kingdom.  They can refuse to enter the Celestial Kingdom if they are NOT interested in the work God is doing.  My thought is there is an infinity of intelligences out there waiting to become spirit children.  The Love of God is so great that He deeply desires as many of us to literally become like Him and to expand the work.  Thus increasing exponentially the number of Heavenly Parents.  The scriptures make it clear - - -

1 Corinthians 11:11. Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.

Sounds like you have it all figured out, however, I reserve the right to disagree with your interpretation. 

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, juliann said:

We teach "charity" as the Bible does. It is not a sexually motivated love for a select one, with a selected family group that excludes all others.  We have a huge and I mean huge problem with that when we insist on ever so exclusive eternal honeymoon cottages. If this idea is true, it means God most definitely has a favorite person. It takes down the whole idea of charity. I think we imagine it as sitting in ivory towers with our selected special ones and dispensing "love" from on high. That is not Biblical. It is not gospel centered. 

Romantic love is like all other loves in that if it is not leavened with charity it justifies horrible things. I am sure all of us have seen abhorrent acts that are badly justified by an appeal to love. Friendships, parent-child relationships, all corruptible.

[CV75]

5 hours ago, Peacefully said:

I’m not sure why we get so hung up on the sex act itself when discussing eternal partnership. Maybe it is because many of us come from a Puritanical mindset where the physical act of sex was considered a bit “dirty.“ However, most married, heterosexual couples don’t spend the majority of their together time having sex. There is a lot of time spent just getting through the daily grind or just talking and making plans that brings us closer together and helps us form deep connections that we hope will last through the eternities. I bet it is the same for gay couples. They aren’t just forging a bond through sexual relations, they are forging it through day to day living. It seems very dismissive, and without empathy, to expect them to jump for joy at the prospect of not being with their sweetheart in the next life. Somehow, it’s ok for heterosexual couples to want to be together forever, but not gay couples? This is very hard for me to get my head around, so I’ve quit trying. 

I think the desire to enjoy same-sex charitable relationships is perfectly godlike, friends as well as the permutations of ancestor relatives and descendant relatives that exist through blood, marriage, adoption, tradition, etc. I believe that charity develops over the course of individuals' lives and is forged in their relationships, and thankfully (given that opportunities can fail us) transcends familial. romantic and other kinds of "ancillary" (as I call it) love that draw people together. Which of these ancillary kinds of love survive the grave and resurrection are anybody's guess; personally, I think many kinds would. As far as expectations and prospects for having a sweetheart (as conceptualized by any given generation or culture) in the next life, I think that if we focus on x-y-z during this life and not the Son, we miss out on the joy that is possible in this life as we prioritize the work of salvation, whatever we might suppose is standing in our way.

[CV75]

7 hours ago, juliann said:

Or "sexual attraction" itself is a manifestation of "fallen nature" and because it is hormonal, is only a function of mortality. 

Given that gender is an eternal characteristic, I think that even charity is expressed differently on a spiritual level by males and females; and, given that opposition and diversity are often complementary, a fulness of charity is found in the union of charitable expression, and the children of God benefit from the pairing in terms of the work of salvation. That union may be a function of godly attraction or godly choice, or both, but in either case is godly.

Edited May 3, 2021 by CV75

[juliann]

15 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Given that gender is an eternal characteristic, I think that even charity is expressed differently on a spiritual level by males and females; and, given that opposition and diversity are often complementary, a fulness of charity is found in the union of charitable expression, and the children of God benefit from the pairing in terms of the work of salvation. That union may be a function of godly attraction or godly choice, or both, but in either case is godly.

Gender is largely culturally assigned roles. It isn’t eternal, your sex is. 

[JustAnAustralian]

6 minutes ago, juliann said:

Gender is largely culturally assigned roles. It isn’t eternal, your sex is. 

That gets us into the sex-gender difference linguistic argument, and what people actually mean when they use one or the other.

[Calm]

1 minute ago, juliann said:

Gender is largely culturally assigned roles. It isn’t eternal, your sex is. 

And I think it is possible that what we assume is our eternal sex character based on our mortal experience is only our current expression of our eternal sexual nature. That could explain why there are variations from what we believe are two norms, male (XY) and female (XX).  It may be expressed quite differently in eternity, just as our sexual nature is expressed differently as children as opposed to adults....but even greater differences given we are talking about what are infinite beings when we talk about eternal natures. 
 

Maybe the eternal female can be expressed in a range of mortal biological/physical modalities and same with the eternal male with many shared physical characteristics.  Or maybe the eternal male/female is much ‘larger’ and in mortality every person only gets some of the eternal characteristics associated with their eternal sexual nature...again explaining significant variations in mortality while still allowing for an eternal nature.  Think we have 1000 sexual characteristics as eternal beings and only 100 of them are expressed during mortality.  Most characteristics expressed in mortality are the same among most mortals, but some have others. 

[Calm]

Just now, JustAnAustralian said:

That gets us into the sex-gender difference linguistic argument, and what people actually mean when they use one or the other.

We should make an official board rule:  gender is the cultural, social identity and sex is the biological attributes. 

[california boy]

2 hours ago, longview said:

If people do not believe the doctrines elucidated in the Proclamation of the Family, they are certainly free to form their own associations in the telestial kingdom.  They can refuse to enter the Celestial Kingdom if they are NOT interested in the work God is doing.  My thought is there is an infinity of intelligences out there waiting to become spirit children.  The Love of God is so great that He deeply desires as many of us to literally become like Him and to expand the work.  Thus increasing exponentially the number of Heavenly Parents.  The scriptures make it clear - - -

1 Corinthians 11:11. Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.

If the Celestial Kingdom is just about procreation, then yeah maybe you have a point.  I tend to think it is more than that.  I guess I just have a much broader view of what the work of God is.  And the concept of women being eternally pregnant just doesn't seem to me to be what eternity is all about.  

I also believe the Love of God is so great that I too will fulfill the best possible version of myself.  Being gay is not some affliction that I need to overcome.  On the contrary, the gifts and blessings God has given me my whole life will continue to expand and be refined.  None of that is conditional on who I am in love with.  

But I certainly get your narrow perspective.  You too were born that way.

[california boy]

1 hour ago, juliann said:

Gender is largely culturally assigned roles. It isn’t eternal, your sex is. 

It is interesting to me that you would say this now.  I just spent the afternoon with a person who was born with Klinefelter Syndrome.  (He was born with XXY chromosomes.)  He is perhaps the tallest person I have ever meant in my life at 6'10" which can be a manifestation of that condition.  He didn't enter puberty until he was in his 30's and that was because the doctors put him on a regimen of testosterone that forced puberty to occur. Otherwise, it never would have happened.   He continues testosterone treatments daily to this day.  

You may think this is a rare condition.  But actually about 1 in 600 males are born with the XXY chromosome.  How it manifests itself is pretty wide.  The most common is being infertile. I was fascinated by the life he has lived and the impact that has had on his life.  Sex may not be as black and white as the POF states.  Unless you also believe that God is just messing with some of His children.  

[Bernard Gui]

11 hours ago, Duncan said:

exactley, not a revelation and certaintly not what longview reads into it

Nevertheless, First Presidency and Apostolic proclamations carry a lot of weight.  We reject them out of hand or try to rationalize them at our own peril.

Edited May 3, 2021 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

On 5/1/2021 at 5:52 PM, california boy said:

And how do you know this?  Did you get some revelation from God that the prophet is not aware of?  

I personally plan to spend eternity with my beloved partner.  And I don't really care where.

True. We will go where we will feel most comfortable and happy, wherever that might be.

 

 

Whole lotta speculatin' goin' on here. So much we guess about and wish for, but who knows?

Edited May 3, 2021 by Bernard Gui

[longview]

2 hours ago, california boy said:

If the Celestial Kingdom is just about procreation, then yeah maybe you have a point.  I tend to think it is more than that.  I guess I just have a much broader view of what the work of God is.  And the concept of women being eternally pregnant just doesn't seem to me to be what eternity is all about.

So you have a MUCH broader view of what the work of God is?  Oh wow!  Yet you have failed to "elucidate" what that is.  Of course you knew there are no revelations of how intelligences are transitioned to becoming spirit children.  The PoF is explicit that the man and woman are necessary partners in God's Work and Glory.  Your crack about eternal pregnancy is your lame attempt at ridicule.

3 hours ago, california boy said:

But I certainly get your narrow perspective.  You too were born that way.

Such an amazing worldly smugness rooted in the worship of carnal man.  You may think you are poking fun at me but in reality you are declaring your rejection of the PoF.

[JLHPROF]

8 hours ago, Duncan said:

None of any of your ideas here are "elucidated" in either the POF or the scriptures, except the idea of God's love for all of his children and wanting us to become like him

It is literally impossible to become like God without being in an eternal male female marriage.

[Duncan]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

It is literally impossible to become like God without being in an eternal male female marriage.

“When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the gospel—you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave.” Joseph Smith

[Duncan]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

Nevertheless, First Presidency and Apostolic proclamations carry a lot of weight.  We reject them out of hand or try to rationalize them at our own peril.

another possibility is they don't carry any value policy wise-Last year for April 2020 GC President Nelson read the new proclamation, other than one talk by Elder Rasband I haven't seen or heard a word about it, nothing, it's just all but forgotten after one year!

[JustAnAustralian]

4 hours ago, Duncan said:

ther than one talk by Elder Rasband I haven't seen or heard a word about it, nothing, it's just all but forgotten after one year!

People rarely talk about the four before the family proclamation either.

[CV75]

11 hours ago, juliann said:

Gender is largely culturally assigned roles. It isn’t eternal, your sex is. 

I'm using the 1828 Webster Dictionary definition...