Queer member speaking at byu women's conference

[CV75]

10 hours ago, california boy said:

It is interesting to me that you would say this now.  I just spent the afternoon with a person who was born with Klinefelter Syndrome.  (He was born with XXY chromosomes.)  He is perhaps the tallest person I have ever meant in my life at 6'10" which can be a manifestation of that condition.  He didn't enter puberty until he was in his 30's and that was because the doctors put him on a regimen of testosterone that forced puberty to occur. Otherwise, it never would have happened.   He continues testosterone treatments daily to this day.  

You may think this is a rare condition.  But actually about 1 in 600 males are born with the XXY chromosome.  How it manifests itself is pretty wide.  The most common is being infertile. I was fascinated by the life he has lived and the impact that has had on his life.  Sex may not be as black and white as the POF states.  Unless you also believe that God is just messing with some of His children.  

Given we are not in an eternal world, I think our "eternal characteristics" can be temporarily disrupted or hidden from physical expression in mortality until the resurrection.

[california boy]

8 hours ago, longview said:

So you have a MUCH broader view of what the work of God is?  Oh wow!  Yet you have failed to "elucidate" what that is.  Of course you knew there are no revelations of how intelligences are transitioned to becoming spirit children.  The PoF is explicit that the man and woman are necessary partners in God's Work and Glory.  Your crack about eternal pregnancy is your lame attempt at ridicule.

Such an amazing worldly smugness rooted in the worship of carnal man.  You may think you are poking fun at me but in reality you are declaring your rejection of the PoF.

 

What I am REALLY SAYING is that this is ALL speculation. No one knows how this is all going to work.  So to assert one point of view as being somehow true for the eternities based on our extremely limited understanding is foolish.  Especially when that opinion comes from a single point of view based on our conditions in this life.  Of course I failed to elucidate what that is when there is no revealed knowledge on this subject.  Just like you failed to elucidate how it is possible for a male and female are essential to create billions of spirit children when we don't actually know how spirit children are created. How can any mortal elucidate about the next life when so little is known?

So just who is being smug?

[Stargazer]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

 

What I am REALLY SAYING is that this is ALL speculation. No one knows how this is all going to work.  So to assert one point of view as being somehow true for the eternities based on our extremely limited understanding is foolish.  Especially when that opinion comes from a single point of view based on our conditions in this life.  Of course I failed to elucidate what that is when there is no revealed knowledge on this subject.  Just like you failed to elucidate how it is possible for a male and female are essential to create billions of spirit children when we don't actually know how spirit children are created. How can any mortal elucidate about the next life when so little is known?

So just who is being smug?

You sound as if you still bear a testimony in your heart, with regard to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. That cheers me up greatly.

[longview]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

What I am REALLY SAYING is that this is ALL speculation.

You could NOT be more wrong.  Like Sherem, you are in denial of basic truths.  But deep in your heart you know they are true.

Jacob 7:7  And ye have led away much of this people that they pervert the right way of God, and keep not the law of Moses which is the right way; and convert the law of Moses into the worship of a being which ye say shall come many hundred years hence. And now behold, I, Sherem, declare unto you that this is blasphemy; for no man knoweth of such things; for he cannot tell of things to come. And after this manner did Sherem contend against me.

2 hours ago, california boy said:

No one knows how this is all going to work.  So to assert one point of view as being somehow true for the eternities based on our extremely limited understanding is foolish.  Especially when that opinion comes from a single point of view based on our conditions in this life.

There are MANY fundamentals that that are plainly revealed and taught with the power and conviction of the Spirit.  Many truths complement and reinforce each other.  It is NOT a single point of view but a CLOUD of witnesses that affirm and even magnify the glory of God's work and purposes.

2 hours ago, california boy said:

Of course I failed to elucidate what that is when there is no revealed knowledge on this subject.

You continue to be very vague about how your "knowledge" is superior to that of the Church.  Your convictions are squishy at best.

2 hours ago, california boy said:

Just like you failed to elucidate how it is possible for a male and female are essential to create billions of spirit children when we don't actually know how spirit children are created. How can any mortal elucidate about the next life when so little is known?

Why would you argue about how is it "possible" for male and female to make it essential for overseeing the nurture and training of spirit children in the pre-existence?  With God, all things are possible.

[juliann]

14 hours ago, california boy said:

It is interesting to me that you would say this now.  I just spent the afternoon with a person who was born with Klinefelter Syndrome.  (He was born with XXY chromosomes.)  He is perhaps the tallest person I have ever meant in my life at 6'10" which can be a manifestation of that condition.  He didn't enter puberty until he was in his 30's and that was because the doctors put him on a regimen of testosterone that forced puberty to occur. Otherwise, it never would have happened.   He continues testosterone treatments daily to this day.  

You may think this is a rare condition.  But actually about 1 in 600 males are born with the XXY chromosome.  How it manifests itself is pretty wide.  The most common is being infertile. I was fascinated by the life he has lived and the impact that has had on his life.  Sex may not be as black and white as the POF states.  Unless you also believe that God is just messing with some of His children.  

I find it interesting that as soon as word definitions are pulled out, it immediately becomes a discussion of genetic anamolies as if that changes anything at all. As I said, gender is a social construct dependent on cultural mores. It is not a synonym for sex. You can create more sex categories, I suppose, but it still doesn't make sex mean gender. I can see why the misuse of the word is important to trans activists because they do tend to make gender roles the defining characteristic of sex, which as a woman trying to shed those gender roles, I find troublesome. But that is another topic. 

 This is the biggest problem with the POC, IMO, they misuse gender when they really mean sex. 

[MiserereNobis]

On 5/2/2021 at 8:51 AM, longview said:

It means taking on the responsibility and work that God is doing. 

I don't want to spend eternity with responsibility and work. I'd rather have eternal rest and peace.

[Chum]

13 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

I don't want to spend eternity with responsibility and work. I'd rather have eternal rest and peace.

I suspect it is our God-given nature to be bored with any one state, eventually.

What I absolutely don't want is an eternity of unfixable or endlessly sabotaged problems to churn away at. So, no callings.

Edited May 3, 2021 by Chum
redundant redundancy

[Stargazer]

54 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

I don't want to spend eternity with responsibility and work. I'd rather have eternal rest and peace.

Are YOU ever in for a surprise, then!  

We mortals look at our mortal lives in our mortal bodies and especially towards the end of our lives, we do desire rest. We're tired, after all.

But the Resurrection will do away with all that. Give us eternal youth. It will be a very different condition from what we now "enjoy".

Edited May 3, 2021 by Stargazer

[The Nehor]

49 minutes ago, Chum said:

I suspect it is our God-given nature to be bored with any one state, eventually.

What I absolutely don't want is an eternity of unfixable or endlessly sabotaged problems to churn away at. So, no callings.

And no kids.

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

I don't want to spend eternity with responsibility and work. I'd rather have eternal rest and peace.

I suspect that resurrected beings experience rest even while busy doing things. At least I hope so.

It is the only way I can reconcile the idea that postmortal preressurection Paradise is a place of rest and an active place with a lot of doing stuff.

[JustAnAustralian]

 

7 hours ago, juliann said:

This is the biggest problem with the POC, IMO, they misuse gender when they really mean sex. 

Plenty of current medical journal articles still use gender as a stand in for biological sex. So whether or not it should be, for many people it still is. 

[california boy]

8 hours ago, longview said:

You could NOT be more wrong.  Like Sherem, you are in denial of basic truths.  But deep in your heart you know they are true.

Jacob 7:7  And ye have led away much of this people that they pervert the right way of God, and keep not the law of Moses which is the right way; and convert the law of Moses into the worship of a being which ye say shall come many hundred years hence. And now behold, I, Sherem, declare unto you that this is blasphemy; for no man knoweth of such things; for he cannot tell of things to come. And after this manner did Sherem contend against me.

There are MANY fundamentals that that are plainly revealed and taught with the power and conviction of the Spirit.  Many truths complement and reinforce each other.  It is NOT a single point of view but a CLOUD of witnesses that affirm and even magnify the glory of God's work and purposes.

Ok, you claim to be in possession of great knowledge directly from God.  So perhaps you should be sharing what you know to be the exact will of God.  We would all like to know.  The prophet would like to know what God has revealed to you because every prophet has been silent on some of these fundamental questions you seem to have received answers to.  We would all like to know the vast knowledge you have about what happens after death.

You say that it takes a man and a woman to produce a spirit child.  Just how does that happen?  How are spirit children made?

You say you know what happens to those that are attracted to the same sex.  What exactly has God revealed to you that He hasn't revealed to his prophets?

8 hours ago, longview said:

You continue to be very vague about how your "knowledge" is superior to that of the Church.  Your convictions are squishy at best.

If you are going to accuse me of preaching some alternative message about what happens after we die, I am going to call you on it.  CFR where I have expressed any knowledge that is superior to that of the Church?  

8 hours ago, longview said:

Why would you argue about how is it "possible" for male and female to make it essential for overseeing the nurture and training of spirit children in the pre-existence?  With God, all things are possible.

CFR that I argued that male and female could not oversee the nurture and training of spirit children in the pre existence.

Now for the third time, THIS is what I said "What I am REALLY SAYING is that this is ALL speculation."  It is you that is claiming some inside revelation that the prophet has not professed to have received from God.  

Answer my CFR's or withdraw your accusations.

[california boy]

8 hours ago, juliann said:

I find it interesting that as soon as word definitions are pulled out, it immediately becomes a discussion of genetic anamolies as if that changes anything at all. As I said, gender is a social construct dependent on cultural mores. It is not a synonym for sex. You can create more sex categories, I suppose, but it still doesn't make sex mean gender. I can see why the misuse of the word is important to trans activists because they do tend to make gender roles the defining characteristic of sex, which as a woman trying to shed those gender roles, I find troublesome. But that is another topic. 

 This is the biggest problem with the POC, IMO, they misuse gender when they really mean sex. 

Did you think my post had anything to do with a definition between gender and sex?

[Bernard Gui]

21 hours ago, Duncan said:

another possibility is they don't carry any value policy wise-Last year for April 2020 GC President Nelson read the new proclamation, other than one talk by Elder Rasband I haven't seen or heard a word about it, nothing, it's just all but forgotten after one year!

That’s one way out of taking responsibility. 

[Duncan]

9 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

That’s one way out of taking responsibility. 

how would you take responsibility for a proclamation? has the church taken any steps for implementation for last year's proclamation? as I say they are almost forgotten soon after they are brought out

[Bernard Gui]

10 minutes ago, Duncan said:

how would you take responsibility for a proclamation? has the church taken any steps for implementation for last year's proclamation? as I say they are almost forgotten soon after they are brought out

The PoF warns of severe consequences, but it is only a proclamation, so who cares?

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, california boy said:

Ok, you claim to be in possession of great knowledge directly from God.  So perhaps you should be sharing what you know to be the exact will of God.  We would all like to know.  The prophet would like to know what God has revealed to you because every prophet has been silent on some of these fundamental questions you seem to have received answers to.  We would all like to know the vast knowledge you have about what happens after death.

You say that it takes a man and a woman to produce a spirit child.  Just how does that happen?  How are spirit children made?

You say you know what happens to those that are attracted to the same sex.  What exactly has God revealed to you that He hasn't revealed to his prophets?

If you are going to accuse me of preaching some alternative message about what happens after we die, I am going to call you on it.  CFR where I have expressed any knowledge that is superior to that of the Church?  

CFR that I argued that male and female could not oversee the nurture and training of spirit children in the pre existence.

Now for the third time, THIS is what I said "What I am REALLY SAYING is that this is ALL speculation."  It is you that is claiming some inside revelation that the prophet has not professed to have received from God.  

Answer my CFR's or withdraw your accusations.

For what it’s worth....

Granted, these are just First Presidency Proclamations or Declarations and carry neither doctrinal nor revelatory weight (according to some), but do they appear, if we can take the FP seriously, to summarize what we do know.

“Jesus Christ is not the Father of the spirits who have taken or yet shall take bodies upon this earth, for He is one of them. He is The Son, as they are sons or daughters of Elohim. So far as the stages of eternal progression and attainment have been made known through divine revelation, we are to understand that only resurrected and glorified beings can become parents of spirit offspring. Only such exalted souls have reached maturity in the appointed course of eternal life; and the spirits born to them in the eternal worlds will pass in due sequence through the several stages or estates by which the glorified parents have attained exaltation.”

 

“Adam, our first progenitor, ‘the first man,’ was, like Christ, a preexistent spirit, and like Christ he took upon him an appropriate body, the body of a man, and so became a ‘living soul.’ The doctrine of the preexistence—revealed so plainly, particularly in latter days—pours a wonderful flood of light upon the otherwise mysterious problem of man’s origin. It shows that man, as a spirit, was begotten and born of heavenly parents and reared to maturity in the eternal mansions of the Father, prior to coming upon the earth in a temporal body to undergo an experience in mortality.”  

 

“Man is the child of God, formed in the divine image and endowed with divine attributes, and even as the infant son of an earthly father and mother is capable in due time of becoming a man, so the undeveloped offspring of celestial parentage is capable, by experience through ages and aeons, of evolving into a God.”

[Duncan]

4 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

The PoF warns of severe consequences, but it is only a proclamation, so who cares?

you didn't answer my question, so talk about avoiding responsibility

the POF didn't mention the word "severe" besides of which do you need to be told that if you  violate chastity, abuse others, disregard your family that you will stand before God someday and be held accountable? that isn't a new idea, certaintly by 1995

[Kenngo1969]

On 5/2/2021 at 12:38 PM, Peacefully said:

I’m not sure why we get so hung up on the sex act itself when discussing eternal partnership. Maybe it is because many of us come from a Puritanical mindset where the physical act of sex was considered a bit “dirty.“ However, most married, heterosexual couples don’t spend the majority of their together time having sex. ...

They don't?

Here, all this time, I thought it was, "Ken, you don't know what you're missing!" and now, you tell me that it's actually, "Meh, Ken, you're not really missing all that much!"   "No, Ken.  Trust me: You really are blessed to be a eunuch for the sake of the Kingdom."

Well, that's a relief!  In my Second Coming studies, I ran across a scripture that's somewhere in Revelation that talks about the special purity of the 144,000 [that's not how John the Revelator put it, but that's the general gist of it].  And I thought, "Hallelujah!  I knew there was a reason I had been saving myself all of these years!"  Then, either a couple verses later or somewhere in the commentaries I have read it said (in essence, if not in actual substance), "This isn't necessarily referring to sexual purity."  And I thought, "Welp, at least it was fun while it lasted!"

This scene, from Dumb and Dumber, encapsulates my social life/"love" life perfectly:
 

Quote

 

Lloyd Christmas: I want to ask you a question, straight out, flat out, and I want you to give me the honest answer. What do you think the chances are of a guy like you and a girl like me ending up together?

Mary Swanson: Well Lloyd, that's difficult to say. We really don't...

Lloyd Christmas: Hit me with it! Just give it to me straight! I came a long way just to see you Mary, just... The least you can do is level with me. What are my chances?

Mary Swanson: Not good.

[the background soundtrack music suddenly stops]

Lloyd Christmas: [he gulps, his mouth twitching] You mean, not good like one out of a hundred?

Mary Swanson: I'd say more like one out of a million.

Lloyd Christmas: [long pause while he processes what he's heard] So you're telling me there's a chance. YEAH!

 

 

Edited May 4, 2021 by Kenngo1969

[SeekingUnderstanding]

On 5/1/2021 at 6:52 PM, california boy said:

I personally plan to spend eternity with my beloved partner.  And I don't really care where.

In the words of Elder Holland:

“I don't know how to speak about heaven in the traditional, lovely, paradisiacal beauty that we speak of heaven. I wouldn't know how to speak of heaven, without my [spouse] or my children. It would not be heaven for me.”

Edited May 4, 2021 by SeekingUnderstanding

[SeekingUnderstanding]

20 hours ago, longview said:

But deep in your heart you know they are true.

This is disgustingly arrogant and condescending. 

[CA Steve]

21 hours ago, longview said:

With God, all things are possible.

Statements about how God is able to do all things can be used to defend anything.

[Bernard Gui]

7 hours ago, Duncan said:

you didn't answer my question, so talk about avoiding responsibility

the POF didn't mention the word "severe" besides of which do you need to be told that if you  violate chastity, abuse others, disregard your family that you will stand before God someday and be held accountable? that isn't a new idea, certaintly by 1995

The Church takes action on last year’s Proclamation by making the Doctrine and Covenants (the handbook of the Restoration) our course of study this year and by allocating tremendous effort and resources towards missionaries work.

I take personal responsibility by increasing my knowledge of and faith in the Restoration through study and prayer by being willing to share my testimony when appropriate given the opportunity.

The word “severe” aptly describes this section of the PoF:

Quote

We warn that the disintegration of the family will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets.

 

[JLHPROF]

3 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

In the words of Elder Holland:

“I don't know how to speak about heaven in the traditional, lovely, paradisiacal beauty that we speak of heaven. I wouldn't know how to speak of heaven, without my [spouse] or my children. It would not be heaven for me.”

Which is why meeting the requirements for heaven is so necessary.
I"m not sure why there are Church members in this thread who seem to be bristling at the idea that an eternal male/female marriage is required or that other relationships won't be eternal.

Edited May 4, 2021 by JLHPROF

[SeekingUnderstanding]

19 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Which is why meeting the requirements for heaven is so necessary.
I"m not sure why there are Church members in this thread who seem to be bristling at the idea that an eternal male/female marriage is required or that other relationships won't be eternal.

Well I think you may have missed my point. Any after life that doesn’t include the most important people in Elder Holland’s life wouldn’t be heaven for him. Given this, it’s incomprehensible that people on this thread want to describe “heaven” as a place that would by necessity exclude the most important person in California Boy’s life. That to me sounds like hell. Ymmv. 

Edited May 4, 2021 by SeekingUnderstanding