Status of church

[Chum]

1 hour ago, Duncan said:

Here wearing a mask is the law of the land. Last year a ward here got a warning from a health inspector because their doofus Bishop wasn't following the rules. Last Sunday this guy, who doesn't ever wear a mask, wanted to pass the Sacrament and he was told nope, no mask no passing sacrament and so they got someone else. With our temple open house a few months ago now the temple policy-based on following the law, was if someone didn't want to wear a mask in the temple for the tour, was "nice to see you but goodbye"

I find hope in this. Partially because it strongly aligns with First Presidency counsel, partially because acting for the welfare of others manifests the Spirit of Christ.

Edited December 18, 2021 by Chum

[The Nehor]

We just got a letter from the stake sent to every member with no heads up to local leadership or most of stake leadership to stop wearing masks that was heavy-handed and a bit condescending. It has been a disaster. Angry and scared people worried about it calling bishops. Two other wards in the stake are basically split in two over masks or not and the leadership can’t placate both of them. The decision in our ward is that leadership is going to keep wearing masks and encourage people to but not require them except for those blessing and passing sacrament.

A lot of hurt feelings and polarization. We may have up to five families stop coming. I am so sick of this.

[Raingirl]

5 hours ago, The Nehor said:

We just got a letter from the stake sent to every member with no heads up to local leadership or most of stake leadership to stop wearing masks that was heavy-handed and a bit condescending. It has been a disaster. Angry and scared people worried about it calling bishops. Two other wards in the stake are basically split in two over masks or not and the leadership can’t placate both of them. The decision in our ward is that leadership is going to keep wearing masks and encourage people to but not require them except for those blessing and passing sacrament.

A lot of hurt feelings and polarization. We may have up to five families stop coming. I am so sick of this.

Ignoring Covid safety protocols is why I still have not returned to in-person church.  The church’s disregard for health and safety is mind - boggling. Even my employer cares more than that. 

Edited December 19, 2021 by Raingirl

[Hamba Tuhan]

13 hours ago, The Nehor said:

We just got a letter from the stake sent to every member with no heads up to local leadership or most of stake leadership to stop wearing masks that was heavy-handed and a bit condescending.

Wait, your stake presidency instructed members to stop wearing masks??? Can you quote this for us, please?

8 hours ago, Raingirl said:

The church’s disregard for health and safety is mind - boggling.

With all due respect, I don't think renegade wards/stakes in certain corners of America are the Church. In my ward yesterday, I saw one person above the age of 11 not wearing a facemask. Those administering the sacrament all wear gloves as well. Hand sanitiser is readily available (and used), and we all sign in electronically to allow for contact tracing. I visited a very sick (dying, really) former member in hospital after church yesterday, and I can state with confidence that our stake is better at following public health guidelines than the hospital is (with visitor limits not even remotely enforced).

[The Nehor]

6 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Wait, your stake presidency instructed members to stop wearing masks??? Can you quote this for us, please?

Quote:

“Sunday Sacrament Meetings, Funerals, Baptisms, Youth Gatherings/Meetings, etc.:  The wearing of masks and Social Distancing measures will be discontinued.  Families and individuals will determine the appropriate measures to take.”

Completely ambiguous. Do families and individuals decide what to do and whether to wear masks in those meetings or is this restricted to family and individual gatherings?

It also manages to not mention second hour meetings at all.

This is sadly the norm in communications from our stake. When we got the original Covid instructions I had to parse one paragraph out with a logic tree because sentences would contain a statement, some exceptions, some exceptions to the exceptions, and the punctuation was usually wrong or ambiguous. It wasn’t a short paragraph either. It was never clear if exceptions had to meet just one of the conditions or all of the conditions. You couldn’t tell at several points where the exceptions to an exception ended and when it went back to listing the first layer of exceptions. In practice every ward made up their own rules.

[Hamba Tuhan]

21 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Completely ambiguous.

You're not wrong.

[BRMC]

https://www.pewforum.org/2021/12/14/about-three-in-ten-u-s-adults-are-now-religiously-unaffiliated/?fbclid=IwAR3o_5glUWQyNeudlxWprJX8Dub06jiAJhK7olac0FRt0okTkVPSJQ3nQBs

[MustardSeed]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

every

Sorry I accidentally hit a down instead of an upvote. 
 

I would be quick to send that letter to the area rep.  Good night nurse that is so rogue. Especially in light of the uptick in numbers and hospitals filling again- 

[Calm]

45 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Sorry I accidentally hit a down instead of an upvote. 

You can alter your vote….Added:  I see that you did.

I am curious if any notification is sent when one makes a mistake or changes their mind and changes the vote of the original vote.

Edited December 20, 2021 by Calm

[MustardSeed]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

You can alter your vote….Added:  I see that you did.

I am curious if any notification is sent when one makes a mistake or changes their mind and changes the vote of the original vote.

The only reason I apologized is because when the tally goes from negative back up to zero, the zero is in a different font and color, indicating that the post had previously been downvoted.  

[rongo]

3 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

I would be quick to send that letter to the area rep.  Good night nurse that is so rogue. Especially in light of the uptick in numbers and hospitals filling again- 

I think it would be very telling and interesting what the response would be to a letter sent to an Area Seventy complaining that a stake is not following Church guidelines on masks. I think it would vary by area, but in many places, this stated policy is the default policy: completely up to individuals. I think many areas wouldn't get involved, and other areas would address it by sending out a communication. But, you aren't going to see forceable removal from Church property or church discipline for not wearing a mask. At least not in the United States. 

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

Sorry I accidentally hit a down instead of an upvote. 
 

I would be quick to send that letter to the area rep.  Good night nurse that is so rogue. Especially in light of the uptick in numbers and hospitals filling again- 

I toyed with the idea until I found out someone else already did.

One of the most troubling parts to me is that other parts of the letter suggest that the whole thing is revelation. My concern there is the potential for spiritual death that adds. If anyone gets covid and (rightly or wrongly) they or someone who cares about them blames it on church attendance or going to an activity that opens the possibility of someone losing faith in revelation entirely.

Hence being sick of this whole thing. Thankfully it is at least a metaphorical sickness since I expect the coming hospital and healthcare crunch to be the worst we have seen yet.

[MustardSeed]

Glad someone reported it.  To claim it as revelation is disgusting. 

[mfbukowski]

9 hours ago, The Nehor said:

“Sunday Sacrament Meetings, Funerals, Baptisms, Youth Gatherings/Meetings, etc.:  The wearing of masks and Social Distancing measures will be discontinued.  Families and individuals will determine the appropriate measures to take.”

Completely ambiguous. Do families and individuals decide what to do and whether to wear masks in those meetings or is this restricted to family and individual gatherings?

Not THAT ambiguous.   I think it says:

"The rules for social distancing and the wearing of masks in meetings is discontinued.  Families and individuals may now determine the appropriate measures to take on their own."

 

 

 

 

 

 

'

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, MustardSeed said:

Glad someone reported it.  To claim it as revelation is disgusting. 

it might even be revelation. I don’t know. It is just not a wise claim to make. It puts God on the hook for any ramifications of the decision whether good or bad and whether those ramifications are due to the decision or unfairly attributed to it.

2 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Not THAT ambiguous.   I think it says:

"The rules for social distancing and the wearing of masks in meetings is discontinued.  Families and individuals may now determine the appropriate measures to take on their own."

I think so too but I can tell you not everyone read it that way and if it were written like your interpretation my Sunday probably would have gone better. I am tempted to post the whole thing so you get the whole effect of why this was dropping a bomb but probably not a good idea.

[mfbukowski]

16 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

....we all sign in electronically to allow for contact tracing.

HUH?

We don't have that.   Could you explain what that entails?

I don't think that would go over too well here in the Wild West.

"Huh?  I now have to report to the government every person I speak to???   No way!  They can take that and.......  etc." 

 

[Calm]

27 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Could you explain what that entails?

Contact tracing through apps is done in a number of countries, including some states in the US iirc.  Effectiveness depends on what percentage of population is willing, so my guess is not very effective in the US with all the conspiracy theories about government tracking (and yet also a willingness to post all sorts of personal details oneself online for many it seems…never should expect much consistency in humans).
 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_contact_tracing

https://www.news-medical.net/news/20211123/Effectiveness-of-Australian-COVID-19-contract-tracing-app.aspx

Quote

Countries like Canada, Finland, Germany, Switzerland, the United Kingdom, and Vietnam have used the decentralized approach without public health authorities. By contrast, contact identification under the centralized approach occurs via a common database, which gives public health authorities access to undertake contact risk assessment and notification. This approach has been implemented by Australia, China, France, New Zealand, Singapore, and Taiwan

 

Edited December 20, 2021 by Calm

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

Contact tracing through apps is done in a number of countries, including some states in the US iirc.  Effectiveness depends on what percentage of population is willing, so my guess is not very effective in the US with all the conspiracy theories about government tracking (and yet also a willingness to post all sorts of personal details oneself online for many it seems…never should expect much consistency in humans).
 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_contact_tracing

https://www.news-medical.net/news/20211123/Effectiveness-of-Australian-COVID-19-contract-tracing-app.aspx

 

Thanks!

[The Nehor]

And the stake just revised their instructions due to input from the Area Presidency and masking is back to being encouraged.

*Shock* *Gasp* *Surprise Face*

[Hamba Tuhan]

I almost never pick up a copy of the ward newsletter, but I did this morning. The following are all on the front page:

• 'Please continue to follow COVID safety protocols, including checking in electronically upon arrival' (bold original).
• 'Please continue to wear masks in all Church meetings. Note that children under 12 do not need to wear masks' (underline original).
• 'Due to COVID restrictions, we cannot use the hymn books', followed by instructions on how to download the Church music app.

We also have a section labelled 'COVID vaccine information', with URLs for the local vaccine finder and for government background information pages.

I saw no youth or adult without a face covering at church today, and some children were wearing them. Some members continued to wear them whilst talking outdoors. (I didn't.)

I did speak with one of the YSA from our ward who has been away studying at university for a couple of years. The place where she lives now has a lower vaccination rate, and apparently unvaccinated members are annoyed that they cannot attend the annual YSA new year convention. She's on the planning committee and said the response from the area presidency when this was brought up was, 'Too bad if they don't like it'. So now the schismatics are promoting an 'alternative' event 'for everyone' ...

I think that probably summarises the 'status of the Church' in these parts.

Edited December 28, 2021 by Hamba Tuhan

[The Nehor]

15 hours ago, The Nehor said:

And the stake just revised their instructions due to input from the Area Presidency and masking is back to being encouraged.

*Shock* *Gasp* *Surprise Face*

Just found out that the Stake President called our Bishop out during the week for putting provisos on their ‘revelation’. Then the Area President gave the Stake Presidency a spanking and told them to knock it off. Now we have to announce the change. We decided which of the bishopric should make the announcement by figuring who was the least likely to sound snarky while doing it.

[Ragerunner]

Our stake continues to basically take the approach of, it’s up to you if you want to wear a mask or social distance.
This has created a default environment that basically forces an unsafe covid situation at church, as most don’t wear mask, are not fully vaccinated and don’t social distance. If you end up sick, have to miss work, end up in the hospital, have a big medical bill or worse, oh well. Which many have experienced.

Our Stake Presidency still has never openly acknowledged any of the First Presidency statements or letters. They have tried really hard not to bring it up. 

It has become very clear at this point that many local leaders are letting their political viewpoints guide their church actions instead of following the First Presidency.

We do still zoom sacrament meeting, which is a positive at this time.

[Peacefully]

7 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Just found out that the Stake President called our Bishop out during the week for putting provisos on their ‘revelation’. Then the Area President gave the Stake Presidency a spanking and told them to knock it off. Now we have to announce the change. We decided which of the bishopric should make the announcement by figuring who was the least likely to sound snarky while doing it.

There were about 10 people, including my husband and me wearing masks at church today. The Bishopric is no longer wearing them. The stake high council member and his wife who are in our ward always wear masks. I guess the stake leaders took the Prophet’s advice to heart but the bishoprics don’t have to toe the line. I think my husband is about ready to throw in the mask. Not sure what I will do when that happens. 

Edited December 26, 2021 by Peacefully

[pogi]

21 hours ago, The Nehor said:

And the stake just revised their instructions due to input from the Area Presidency and masking is back to being encouraged.

*Shock* *Gasp* *Surprise Face*

That was a short lived “revelation”.

[The Nehor]

4 minutes ago, pogi said:

That was a short lived “revelation”.

Yep. I almost sent a rather snide email.

That was only one of the two explosions we faced this week. And another one got headed off before it got anywhere thankfully.

Edited December 26, 2021 by The Nehor