Catholic Church Prohibits Blessings of Same-Sex Unions

[smac97]

Here:

Quote

The Vatican’s doctrinal office on Monday clarified that the Catholic Church does not have the power to give liturgical blessings of homosexual unions.

Answering the question, “does the Church have the power to give the blessing to unions of persons of the same sex,” the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith responded, “negative.”

In an accompanying note, the doctrine office explained that blessings are sacramentals, and “consequently, in order to conform with the nature of sacramentals, when a blessing is invoked on particular human relationships, in addition to the right intention of those who participate, it is necessary that what is blessed be objectively and positively ordered to receive and express grace, according to the designs of God inscribed in creation, and fully revealed by Christ the Lord.”

“Therefore, only those realities which are in themselves ordered to serve those ends are congruent with the essence of the blessing imparted by the Church,” the CDF said.

“For this reason, it is not licit to impart a blessing on relationships, or partnerships, even stable, that involve sexual activity outside of marriage (i.e., outside the indissoluble union of a man and a woman open in itself to the transmission of life), as is the case of the unions between persons of the same sex.”

The ruling and note were approved for publication by Pope Francis and signed by CDF prefect Cardinal Luis Ladaria and secretary Archbishop Giacomo Morandi.

See also here:

Quote

Aiming for a moderate tone, the CDF wrote that ”positive elements exist within the context of a union not ordered to the creator's plan“. Nevertheless, the statement claimed that while the Vatican's deity ”never ceases to bless each of His pilgrim children in this world ... He does not and cannot bless sin.“

Pope Francis has taken a more progressive approach toward LGBTQ+ communities than his predecessors, with a now-famous quote about gay people trying to live a Christian life: ”Who am I to judge?“

The Catholic Church remains of the position that marriage is strictly between a man and a woman, although the pope has expressed support for same-sex civil unions.

A decree in 2003 tried to ride a similar line, calling for the respectful treatment of gay people, but saying the church ”cannot lead in any way to approval of homosexual behavior or to legal recognition of homosexual unions.''

And here:

Quote

{The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith} said the church does not and cannot have the power to impart her blessing on such unions and, therefore, “any form of blessing that tends to acknowledge their unions as such” is illicit.

That is because a blessing “would constitute a certain imitation or analogue of the nuptial blessing invoked on the man and woman united in the sacrament of matrimony,” it said, citing paragraph 251 of “Amoris Laetitia,” which reiterated the synod members’ conclusion that “there are absolutely no grounds for considering homosexual unions to be in any way similar or even remotely analogous to God’s plan for marriage and family.”

“Only those realities which are in themselves ordered to serve those ends are congruent with the essence of the blessing imparted by the church,” it said. As such, it is illicit to bless any relationship or partnership that is outside the indissoluble union of a man and a woman open to the transmission of life, it added.

Declaring “the unlawfulness of blessings of unions between persons of the same sex is not therefore, and is not intended to be, a form of unjust discrimination, but rather a reminder of the truth of the liturgical rite and of the very nature of the sacramentals, as the church understands them,” the doctrinal office said.
...
Such blessings are illicit for three reasons, it said:

— In addition to such a blessing implying “a certain imitation or analogue of the nuptial blessing” imparted to a man and a woman united in the sacrament of matrimony, there is the nature and value of blessings.

— Blessings belong to “sacramentals, which are ‘liturgical actions of the church’ that require consonance of life with what they signify and generate,” so “a blessing on a human relationship requires that it be ordered to both receive and express the good that is pronounced and given by the blessing.”

— And, “the order that makes one fit to receive the gift is given by the ‘designs of God inscribed in creation, and fully revealed by Christ the Lord.'” The church does not have power over God’s designs nor is she “the arbiter of these designs and the truths they express, but their faithful interpreter and witness.”

“God himself never ceases to bless each of his pilgrim children in this world, because for him ‘we are more important to God than all of the sins that we can commit,'” the congregation said. “But he does not and cannot bless sin: he blesses sinful man, so that he may recognize that he is part of his plan of love and allow himself to be changed by him. He in fact ‘takes us as we are, but never leaves us as we are.'”

And here:

Quote

“The Christian community and its pastors are called to welcome with respect and sensitivity persons with homosexual inclinations, and will know how to find the most appropriate ways, consistent with church teaching, to proclaim to them the Gospel in its fullness,” the church added in its statement. “At the same time, they should recognize the genuine nearness of the church — which prays for them, accompanies them and shares their journey of Christian faith — and receive the teachings with sincere openness.”
...

Last year, Pope Francis became the first pontiff to endorse civil unions of gay couples.

“Homosexual people have the right to be in a family. They are children of God,” Francis said during an interview for the documentary film “Francesco,” The Associated Press reported. “You can’t kick someone out of a family, nor make their life miserable for this.”
...
The Catholic Church is not alone in prohibiting its leaders from performing same-sex weddings. In 2019, the United Methodist Church voted to reaffirm its ban on gay clergy and church participation in LGBTQ weddings, a decision that could lead the denomination to split in 2022.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints also does not allow those with “ecclesiastical authority to perform marriages between two people of the same sex” and the church does not permit its properties to be used for ceremonies or receptions of same-sex weddings.

“We affirm that those who avail themselves of laws or court rulings authorizing same-sex marriage should not be treated disrespectfully. The gospel of Jesus Christ teaches us to love and treat all people with kindness and civility — even when we disagree,” the church stated.

And here:

Quote

Ken Heino, 42, of Valley Stream — a gay man who worships at the Church of St. Paul the Apostle in Manhattan because it is more accepting of those like him and his fiance, Albert Hernandez — said the Vatican’s ruling was "sad news … not just for gay Catholics but all Catholics."

"I feel that the church is dividing people yet once again," he said, adding: "The church needs to examine its conscience and its parishioners and needs to come up with a decision that moves forward either in the direction of accepting everybody for who they are, or not, but they need to tie up their mixed messages that they’re sending to people."
...
Catholic teaching holds that homosexual acts are "intrinsically disordered," and that sex is part of God’s plan for procreation in the bounds of a marriage between a man and a woman.

And here:

Quote

The Vatican said that stating the “unlawfulness of blessings of unions between persons of the same sex” wasn’t discrimination, but “a reminder of the truth of the liturgical rite and of the very nature of the sacramentals, as the Church understands them.”

The statement also says that gays and lesbians, as individuals, may receive a blessing if they live according to Church teaching — in other words, if they remain celibate.

But blessing same-sex unions would send a message that the church approves of a “choice and a way of life” that is condemned in Scripture, reports CNN.

In a commentary provided with the Monday statement, the Vatican insisted that “the negative judgment on the blessing of unions of persons of the same sex does not imply a judgment on persons.”

The Vatican’s announcement is undoubtedly going to be seen as a setback by LGBTQ Catholics who had hoped that, under Pope Francis — who is on the more liberal side of the church hierarchy — the church would soften its stance towards homosexuality.
...
Last year, it appeared that Francis — whose history with regard to LGBTQ issues has been mixed — had made comments supporting civil union laws for same-sex couples as part of an interview he gave as part of a documentary. But the Vatican pushed back against the remarks, arguing they had been taken out of context.

New Ways Ministry, a pro-LGBTQ Catholic organization, called the Vatican’s statement about blessing same-sex unions “not surprising, but still disappointing.”

“Though Rome has now spoken on this issue, what the Vatican doesn’t realize is that the Catholic faithful are not satisfied with the answer that they gave,” Francis DeBernardo, the executive director of New Ways Ministry, said in a statement.

“Catholic people recognize the holiness of the love between committed same-sex couples and recognize this love as divinely inspired and divinely supported and thus meets the standard to be blessed,” DeBernardo continued. “They recognize that God has already blessed these unions, and that a ritual is simply a recognition of God’s blessing.”

And here:

Quote

Marianne Duddy-Burke, executive director of DignityUSA, which also supports gays in the Church, said the denial "will exacerbate the pain and anger of LGBTQI Catholics and our families" and hurt "couples who live deeply loving and committed relationships".
...

A Pew Research survey last year showed that a majority of Catholics in the United States and Western Europe approved of gay marriage while a majority in Eastern Europe and former Soviet-bloc countries opposed it.

Churches in Africa and Asia also strongly oppose gay marriage. Conservatives have warned that debates on homosexuality have spawned debilitating divisions in other Christian Churches, such as the Anglican communion.

And here:

Quote

Marianne Duddy-Burke, executive director of DignityUSA, said her organization’s membership includes same-sex couples who have been together for decades, persevering in their love for one another in the face of bias and family rejection.

“The fact that our church at its highest levels cannot recognize the grace in that and cannot extend any sort of blessing to these couples is just tragic,” she said.

She was responding to a formal statement Monday from the Vatican’s orthodoxy office, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, saying Roman Catholic clergy may not bless such unions since God “cannot bless sin.” It was approved by Pope Francis.

“Having sin be explicitly included in this statement kind of brings us back to zero,” said Ross Murray, who oversees religious issues for the LGBTQ rights group GLAAD.

He expressed dismay that “the ability for us to live out our lives fully and freely is still seen as an affront to the church or, worse yet, an affront to God, who created us and knows us and loves us.”
...
Natalia Imperatori-Lee, a professor of religious studies at Manhattan College, said those teachings, put together, are problematic.

“It boggles the mind that the hierarchy can affirm that LGBTQ+ persons are made in the image of God but that their unions are a sin,” she said via email. “Are they made in God’s image with the exception of their hearts? With the exception of their abilities and inclinations to love?”

Sister Simone Campbell, executive director of the U.S.-based NETWORK Lobby for Catholic Social Justice, said she was relieved the Vatican statement wasn’t harsher.

She interpreted it as saying, “You can bless the individuals (in a same-sex union), you just can’t bless the contract.”
...
In Francis’ homeland of Argentina, LGBTQ activist Esteban Paulon said earlier statements by the pontiff conveying empathy and understanding for gays and lesbians were mere gestures, lacking any official weight.

“They were not institutional pronouncements,” said Paulon, executive director of the Institute of Public Policies LGBT+. “Saying that homosexual practice is a sin takes us back 200 years and promotes hate speech that unfortunately in Latin America and Europe is on the rise.”

And here:

Quote

A group of Catholic priests are vowing to bless same-sex unions in defiance of recent guidance from the Vatican.

The group, called the Parish Priests Initiative, said in a statement that it is “deeply appalled” by the decision and vowed to “not reject any loving couple who ask to celebrate God’s blessing," according to Reuters.

“We members of the Parish Priests Initiative are deeply appalled by the new Roman decree that seeks to prohibit the blessing of same-sex loving couples. This is a relapse into times that we had hoped to have overcome with Pope Francis,” the group reportedly said.

“We will — in solidarity with so many — not reject any loving couple in the future who ask to celebrate God’s blessing, which they experience every day, also in a worship service,” they continued.

The Austria-based group was founded in 2006, and claims to have 350 members from the official church and over 3,000 lay supporters, Reuters reported.

And here:

Quote

Francis DeBernardo is the executive director of New Wave Ministries, an organization that has sought reconciliation for the LGTBQ community within the Catholic Church since 1977. In an emailed statement, he said the Vatican's decision was "impotent." 

"It won't stop the movement to bless such couples, and, in fact, it will actually encourage Catholics in the pews and the many Catholic leaders who are eager for such blessings to happen to work harder in their support — and blessing — of same-sex couples," DeBernardo said.

He continued: "Though Rome has now spoken on this issue, what the Vatican doesn't realize is that the Catholic faithful are not satisfied with the answer that they gave.  Catholic people recognize the holiness of the love between committed same-sex couples and recognize this love as divinely inspired and divinely supported and thus meets the standard to be blessed." 

According to DeBernardo, a number of  priests are already celebrating marriages and unions between same-sex couples and that if this decision causes them to stop, "the Catholic laity will step in and perform their own rituals, gestures, and words of support." 

"The fact that this discussion is well underway ensures that it will continue," he said. "The toothpaste is out of the tube and it can't be put back inside." 

And here:

Quote

Rodney Croome, a leading advocate for marriage equality when same-sex marriage became legal in Australia, accused the Vatican of being out of step.

Gay marriage was endorsed by 62% of voters who responded to an Australian postal ballot in 2017.

“The Vatican is out of step, not only with public opinion in Australia, but with the majority of Catholics who voted ‘Yes’ for marriage equality in 2017,” said Croome, a spokesperson for just.equal, an advocacy group campaigning for justice and equality.

“If I could address the pope directly, I’d say that sin lies not with same-sex relationships, but with those who invoke God to push LGBTIQ people to the margins of society,” added Croome, who is gay.

Benjamin Oh, co-chair of the advisory board of Australian Catholics for Equality, described the Vatican statement as “personally painful.” Oh said his 16-year same-sex relationship was “worthy of sacramental marriage.”

“The church have (blessed) all kinds of things: animals, cars and even weapons used for the killing of another human being,” Oh said in an email. “For many Catholic Christians, this statement flies in the face of Jesus’ teaching to love."

As a Catholic, Oh said the statement was “personally hurtful and dehumanizing, but sadly, totally unsurprising.”

“There is still a toxic culture towards LGBTI people in our church and societies and this statement will no doubt be weaponized by those who want to inflict more pain, discrimination and suffering on LGBTI folks both in our church and in civil society, especially in places and communities that discriminate, marginalize, harm, abuse and even kill LGBTI persons,” Oh said.

And here:

Quote

A priest can bless a house, an automobile and a pet; the 400-page Book of Blessings, which is both approved by the Vatican and local bishops' conferences, even includes prayers for fishing gear, boats and athletic fields.

Among the objects and persons that can be blessed by priests are gay individuals — but with a caveat.

According to the new decree, a priest can bless a person who happens to be gay, but they must "manifest the will to live in fidelity to the revealed plans of God as proposed by Church teaching." The same conditions apply to "any union that involves sexual activity outside of marriage."

"This is a version of the old tried-and-true 'love the sinner, but hate the sin' mentality that shows up not only in Roman Catholicism but in other Christian denominations," said Patrick Hornbeck, professor of theology at Fordham University. 

"The comparison would be the priest can bless the car, but the priest can't bless the car that he knows is going to be used in a bank robbery," Hornbeck told NCR. "Here, what the Vatican is saying is by the very nature of who LGBTQ people are, their bodies and their selves are such that they cannot be blessed in relationship with one another."

Some excerpts from a thoughtful Op-Ed on this story:

Quote

The church can bestow its blessings however it sees fit. But edicts against homosexuality and gay marriage, though ecclesiastically reasoned and in keeping with God’s plan as the church sees it, put me as a Catholic in a tough spot.

Because, no, I don’t see gay family members and friends as being inherently sinful. I don’t view their positive, nurturing relationships as illicit. It’s just not possible for me to do so.

And, yes, the document this week calls upon clergy to “welcome with respect and sensitivity persons with homosexual inclinations.” Individual gay people can receive blessings from the church.

But that gets undercut for me when homosexuality, a core part of identity for so many, is itself deigned to be contrary to God’s plan.

I can’t reconcile that.

I know it’s not as easy as saying that the church should welcome everyone. The church has its reasons for what it does. Very deeply held and thought-out reasons. They’re not just making this stuff up on the fly. I respect that.

But I also know that if you are gay in the church, there are limits on your ultimate participation. And you’re told that that’s the way God wants it.

How can that make sense for gay people who are truly receptive to God’s message as preached by the Catholic Church?

I wrestle with the question myself: Can I accept divine revelation on some matters while resisting the teaching on homosexuality? Does it have to be all or nothing?

A few thoughts:

1. I empathize with faithful Catholics who struggle with this issue.  They are not alone.

2. I empathize with the collective Catholic Church, which is in some ways divided on this issue.

3. I note that some of the commentary in the above articles seems to presume that the Catholic Church is a sociopolitical construct.  That its doctrines are, or should be, predominantly based on what is sociopolitically popular.  I don't think that works.

4. This story gives rise to some interesting manifestations of how religious authority works in a community-of-faith-based-on-a-hierarchical-structure setting.

5. I hope that both sides can allow for reasoned and principled disagreement about this issue, and that we can find ways to communicate and interact without resorting to rancor.

Thoughts?

Thanks,

-Smac

[Robert F. Smith]

23 minutes ago, smac97 said:

............................

1. I empathize with faithful Catholics who struggle with this issue.  They are not alone.

2. I empathize with the collective Catholic Church, which is in some ways divided on this issue.

3. I note that some of the commentary in the above articles seems to presume that the Catholic Church is a sociopolitical construct.  That its doctrines are, or should be, predominantly based on what is sociopolitically popular.  I don't think that works.

Why shouldn't it be popular and successful?  Isn't Roman Catholicism largely a sociopolitical construct anyhow?  Indeed, the RC Church has made a huge change from the days when it sought to obtain civil and criminal laws against conduct not in keeping with their doctrine.  Why doesn't that earn it some kudos?  LDS change in a similar way has not been rewarded.  The LDS Church is damned if it does, damned if it doesn't.

23 minutes ago, smac97 said:

............................

5. I hope that both sides can allow for reasoned and principled disagreement about this issue, and that we can find ways to communicate and interact without resorting to rancor......................

That is unlikely.  Your stories included problems within the United Methodist Church on this issue.  It is constantly losing members now (the LDS Church in the USA is now larger), and will likely lose many more if it becomes another woke organization.  This problem isn't going away.

[smac97]

35 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Quote

I note that some of the commentary in the above articles seems to presume that the Catholic Church is a sociopolitical construct.  That its doctrines are, or should be, predominantly based on what is sociopolitically popular.  I don't think that works.

Why shouldn't it be popular and successful? 

I don't understand your question.  What "it" are you referencing here?

35 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Isn't Roman Catholicism largely a sociopolitical construct anyhow?

I would think that they see themselves as a religious construct.  

35 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Indeed, the RC Church has made a huge change from the days when it sought to obtain civil and criminal laws against conduct not in keeping with their doctrine.  Why doesn't that earn it some kudos?  LDS change in a similar way has not been rewarded.  The LDS Church is damned if it does, damned if it doesn't.

Well, yes.  

35 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Quote

I hope that both sides can allow for reasoned and principled disagreement about this issue, and that we can find ways to communicate and interact without resorting to rancor

That is unlikely.  Your stories included problems within the United Methodist Church on this issue.  It is constantly losing members now (the LDS Church in the USA is now larger), and will likely lose many more if it becomes another woke organization.  This problem isn't going away.

I think the Brethren are working hard to stay the revelatory/doctrinal course, while otherwise accommodating members who struggle with those revelations/doctrines.

People leave the Church for a variety of reasons.  Sometimes it's fatigue or indifference/apathy/inertia.  Sometimes it's due to a crisis of faith.  Sometimes it's due to interpersonal conflicts.  Sometimes it's due to principled disagreement.  One, some or all of these factors can come into play, and more as well.

If the Church is what it claims to be, then I'm sticking with it, however unpopular it may be or become.  For myself, I believe the Church is what it claims to be.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

I don't understand your question.  What "it" are you referencing here?........................

I tried bolding it:  "That its doctrines are, or should be, predominantly based on what is sociopolitically popular.  I don't think that works."  And I asked:  "Why shouldn't it be popular and successful?"  Seems to me that sociopolitical popularity might be a formula for success.  After all, the RC Church has pomp, circumstance, and mystique.  Sociopolitical popularity might just give it an edge.  Right?

[Ahab]

15 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I tried bolding it:  "That its doctrines are, or should be, predominantly based on what is sociopolitically popular.  I don't think that works."  And I asked:  "Why shouldn't it be popular and successful?"  Seems to me that sociopolitical popularity might be a formula for success.  After all, the RC Church has pomp, circumstance, and mystique.  Sociopolitical popularity might just give it an edge.  Right?

If you are asking if the doctrines of the Catholic church should be predominantly based on what is sociopolitically popular in the world, then I would say it depends on who the Catholic church is trying to please. 

God doesn't necessarily approve of what is sociopolitically popular in the world.

Edited March 17, 2021 by Ahab

[HappyJackWagon]

This is a challenging issue many denominations are struggling with to one degree or another. I found Elton John's rebuke of the Catholic church to be interesting because he essentially called them hypocrites. On one hand they refuse to bless same sx unions but they also invested $$$ in the Elton John bio-pic Rocketman so they are not above earning on business investments centered on LGBTQ topics.

I've been watching the United Methodist Church scramble to deal with this as well and have spoken to UMC friends (including pastors) about it. It is inevitable that the church will split on this issue and most, while recognizing the sadness of a split, also see it as necessary. It's just a matter of timing. But the conservative wing will break off and start at least 1 new church (likely to be called Global Methodist Church) while United Methodist will continue with a more accepting posture towards LGBTQ. To me it sounds like a split is wise since both sides feel moral necessity to defend their understanding of what it means to be a Methodist Christian.  Each side needs the opportunity to worship in a way they feel is right. It is also interesting to note that UMC only united back in the 60's so it is relatively young.

[JLHPROF]

24 minutes ago, Ahab said:

If you are asking if the doctrines of the Catholic church should be predominantly based on what is sociopolitically popular in the world, then I would say it depends on who the Catholic church is trying to please. 

God doesn't necessarily approve of what is sociopolitically popular in the world.

"When “Mormonism” finds favor with the wicked in this land, it will have gone into the shade; but until the power of the Priesthood is gone, “Mormonism” will never become popular with the wicked."  - Brigham Young

[JustAnAustralian]

42 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

On one hand they refuse to bless same sx unions but they also invested $$$ in the Elton John bio-pic Rocketman

A comedy news commentary show actually mentioned that fact on Australian TV (they were discussing this announcement). It was indeed an interesting bit of trivia.

42 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

It is also interesting to note that UMC only united back in the 60's so it is relatively young.

Likewise I've been watching the UMC issues for the past few years. A split looked like it was always going to happen after the big vote in 2019? that ended up showing that the pro-ssm congregations were outnumbered. But I guess when you start merging and further merging under the one umbrella you're going to end up with divisions like this. Especially if there is no overall hierarchy.

[Amulek]

49 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I found Elton John's rebuke of the Catholic church to be interesting because he essentially called them hypocrites. On one hand they refuse to bless same sx unions but they also invested $$$ in the Elton John bio-pic Rocketman so they are not above earning on business investments centered on LGBTQ topics.

So they only discriminate against gays when it comes to religious rites, and that's somehow supposed to be a problem?

If they were to openly discriminate against gays in the marketplace as well, I have a sneaking suspicion that the LGBTQ crowd wouldn't be applauding them for their integrity. 

 

[HappyJackWagon]

12 minutes ago, Amulek said:

So they only discriminate against gays when it comes to religious rites, and that's somehow supposed to be a problem?

If they were to openly discriminate against gays in the marketplace as well, I have a sneaking suspicion that the LGBTQ crowd wouldn't be applauding them for their integrity. 

 

That's an interesting spin. 

It's more akin (in my mind) to hotel chains owned by Mormons who decry p0rn yet sell it as part of their business to make some easy $$$

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

If you are asking if the doctrines of the Catholic church should be predominantly based on what is sociopolitically popular in the world, then I would say it depends on who the Catholic church is trying to please. 

God doesn't necessarily approve of what is sociopolitically popular in the world.

Being sociopolitically popular has nothing to do with God.  If Ronald MacDonald has a burger stand, he might not be trying to appeal to God for success.  Worldly success might just be based on other things than God.

[bluebell]

20 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

That's an interesting spin. 

It's more akin (in my mind) to hotel chains owned by Mormons who decry p0rn yet sell it as part of their business to make some easy $$$

It’s a weird way to make money though if that’s all they wanted.  Rocket man is considered solidly successful, in its genre (movies about musicians) but it was never a given.  The subject matter probably made it less likely than more likely to be a money maker.

 

[Ahab]

5 hours ago, smac97 said:

4. This story gives rise to some interesting manifestations of how religious authority works in a community-of-faith-based-on-a-hierarchical-structure setting.

Are you referring to how the Pope didn't feel it was right to bless same sex marriages even though some other Catholic church leaders had already blessed them?  The question that rises for me is are same sex marriages getting blessed, or not?

In our perspective I believe the answer is no because God doesn't bless same sex marriages, regardless of what anyone in the Catholic church has to say about it.

In their perspective of members of the Catholic church, though, I don't really know.  Does the Pope saying he doesn't feel right about blessing them trickle all the way down to all members, including lower tier leaders, of the Catholic church?

I wouldn't think so, just as it doesn't necessarily trickle all the way down to all members of our church (the Lord's true church) when the President of our church says something.  Each member is independent even though a member of a church.

[smac97]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Quote

I don't understand your question.  What "it" are you referencing here?........................

I tried bolding it:  "That its doctrines are, or should be, predominantly based on what is sociopolitically popular.  I don't think that works."  And I asked:  "Why shouldn't it be popular and successful?" 

Yes, but by "it" are you referencing the Church?  Its doctrines?  Both?  

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Seems to me that sociopolitical popularity might be a formula for success.  After all, the RC Church has pomp, circumstance, and mystique.  Sociopolitical popularity might just give it an edge.  Right?

I dunno.  There are all sorts of things that are sociopolitically popular but immoral (lax sexual ethics, for example), and others that are profoundly moral while being sociopolitically unpopular (disagreement with same-sex marriage being a good example).

As for seeking success through socipolitical popularity, particularly in terms of capitulating to prevailing social winds regarding sexual behaviors and same-sex marriage, no, I don't see that as a formula for success.  Taking a look at this:

How are things working out for the Methodists?  Well...

Quote

Conservative leaders within the United Methodist Church unveiled plans Monday to form a new denomination, the Global Methodist Church, with a doctrine that does not recognize same-sex marriage.

The move could hasten the long-expected breakup of the UMC over differing approaches to LGBTQ inclusion. For now, the UMC is the largest mainline Protestant church in the U.S. and second only to the Southern Baptist Convention, an evangelical denomination, among all U.S. Protestant churches.

Due to the coronavirus pandemic, the UMC’s General Conference — at which the schism would be debated — has been postponed for two consecutive years, and is now scheduled to take place in Minneapolis starting in late August of 2022.

And here:

Quote

The United Methodist Church announced a proposal Friday to split the denomination over what it called "fundamental differences" regarding its beliefs on same-sex marriage and LGBTQ clergy.

The proposal, signed by 16 church leaders from around the world, will be voted on at the church's 2020 general conference in May. If passed, it would allow for a "traditionalist" denomination to separate from the United Methodist Church, the second largest Protestant denomination in the U.S., with more than 12 million members worldwide.

Shrinkage:

http://2b2gdzjtaey3o01p41qinbri-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/membership-graph2.jpg

And the Episcopalians?  Not sure, but there's this:

Quote

Reasons for this decline are manifold – marriage rates are down among the U.S. population (although not anywhere near that much). Those who do marry increasingly opt for ceremonies at secular venues like vineyards, beaches or botanical gardens – venues which don’t require ordained Episcopal clergy.

That being acknowledged, it is ironic how redefinition of marriage within the Episcopal Church corresponds with fewer marriages, just as proclamations of “inclusion” led to including fewer and fewer people in the life the of church.

I noted in 2015 that Episcopal Church officials enacted policies that the majority of Anglicans worldwide refute as contrary to both scripture and tradition. Did the arrival of gender-neutral marriage rites slow the rate of marriage within the church? Possibly. Did a doctrinal change in the understanding of what marriage is – from an institution that forms families to something that is an expression of personal fulfillment and autonomy – reduce those rates? I think so.

Shrinkage:

The Evangelical Lutherans?  See here:

Quote

We left after the cataclysmic ELCA assembly of 2009 accepted the blessing of gay unions (which quickly became the acceptance of gay marriage), the ordination of “married” gays, and a social statement on ­sexuality that was ambivalent about the institution of marriage and the place of sexual relations within it. (The last item was accompanied by a rogue tornado that knocked off the steeple of a nearby ELCA church!)

Some of the dissenters were surprised and saddened by the results and the inevitable break that would follow. I was neither surprised at the outcome nor unhappy about the break. I had participated in twenty years of rearguard resistance that we knew would not prevent the inevitable embrace of liberal Protestantism by the ELCA. We wagered that once the dike of orthodoxy was broken, a veritable flood of heterodoxy would ensue. Further, after the defeat I was finally able to leave the negative mode of resistance and move to the positive mode of helping to organize a new church that was more faithful to the Lutheran tradition.

Whatever doubts I had were extinguished by recent events in the ELCA. The glaring departure from classic Christian teaching is so stunning it is scarcely believable. At the 2018 ELCA Youth Gathering held in Houston in late June, 31,000 youngsters of high school age listened to the most radical speakers the ELCA could possibly put forward. The prime keynoter was Nadia Bolz-­Weber, the tattooed and feisty founding pastor of an ELCA congregation called House for All Sinners and Saints. She has risen to become the featured celebrity of the ELCA and darling of progressive elites from NPR to the BBC.

She had been featured at an earlier Youth Gathering and stuck pretty much to her story of being rescued by grace (not much mention of Christ) from a life of drug and alcohol addiction—and from the fundamentalist Christianity she often blamed for her bad choices. But she inserted ­promotions for the “full acceptance and inclusion” of gays and ­transgender people.

This year, concluding her speech, she employed a blasphemous parody of the set of renunciations that parents or godparents are ex­pected to answer at a baptism: “Do you renounce the devil and all his empty promises?” One renunciation went: “Do you renounce the lie that Queerness is anything other than beauty?” And the youths dutifully chanted back: “I renounce them.” So the crowd was led to reject Christian teaching that homosexual orientation is “objectively disordered” and that acting upon it is sinful. Those who held classic Christian views became purveyors of the devil’s lies. That judgment fell upon those in the ELCA who, ­previously, were guaranteed a place in the church if their “bound conscience” held them to traditional Christian teaching. That promise, we see now, was bogus. It merely allowed local pastors and congregations of a traditional bent to persist in their retrograde beliefs, while all agencies and institutions of the church beyond the local level enforced the progressive verdicts of the 2009 assembly. No public dissenter could get a position or keep one at the higher level.

Projected shrinkage:

The Presbyterians?  There's this:

Quote

The PCUSA’s membership has been in continuous decline since the denomination was formed in 1983, by the reunion of the Presbyterian Church in the U.S. (PCUS) and the United Presbyterian Church in the U.S.A. (UPCUSA). The last recorded membership increase for the PCUSA’s two combined predecessor denominations was in 1965. (Click here for chart showing PCUSA membership and losses 1960-2015.)

Blogger Mateen Elass highlighted that trend in his recent blog “Every Cloud Has a Silver Lining – Thanks be to Mammom!” He wrote

The numbers paint a bleak picture (once again) of the denomination’s health, but especially in the area of membership loss. This is no surprise given the unbiblical trend of the national organization (ordination of practicing homosexuals and redefinition of marriage to include same-sex unions being two of the more egregious decisions of the General Assembly in the last four years), but in 2015 the flood gates of departure opened even wider. After many years of net losses averaging around 2% of total membership, in 2007 those percentages began rising even as the denominational base was shrinking (percentage loss in 2007 was 2.5; each year after that has lost, respectively, 3.1, 2.9, 2.9, 3.2, 5.3, 4.8, and in 2014 5.3%).  2015, however, has broken all past records with a net membership loss of 5.7%. In real numbers that’s a net loss of 95,107 active members. Another way of saying this is that at the end of 2015, the PCUSA was 6.0% smaller than at the end of 2014.

Has any religious denomination improved its membership figures or activity rates by endorsing same-sex marriage?  It seems not (from 2019) :

Quote

As United Methodists look ahead toward next week’s special General Conference on human sexuality, there is a great deal of knowledge and wisdom to be gained by looking at the recent histories of other mainline Protestant denominations that have walked this road.

The Episcopal Church, Presbyterian Church USA, Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, The Christian Church (Disciples of Christ), and United Church of Christ have all in their own ways debated how to handle human sexuality and chose to liberalize their official stances and teachings. The sad reality is that after bending to progressive social pressures, these churches have only continued to shrink, not experiencing growth or renewal through an influx of young believers, LGBT-affirming people who had left the church, or any other means.

The so-called “One Church Plan,” which promises unity while changing the church’s definition of marriage and rolling back current bans on partnered gay clergy and same-sex union ceremonies, firmly sets the United Methodist Church (UMC) on a liberalizing path that very much mirrors what these other denominations have done. If recent history is any indicator, such a plan will cement the UMC’s decline by codifying unbiblical standards and practices that are surely only the first step toward requiring full affirmation of LGBTQ practice in all forms. So-called inclusion and openness in this way will not make the UMC a thriving church in the twenty first century, a beacon of hope for the lost and rejected.

Here:

Quote

Other mainstream Protestant denominations continue to struggle to resolve conflicts between the denomination and individual churches over hot-button issues.

“Many of them had voiced a doctrine of sexuality years ago that the more conservative congregations just could not find in the scriptures,” Bird said.

“When the United Church of Christ endorsed gay marriage, it was just one more straw on the camel’s back. They have lost about a third of its congregations in the last two decades, generally the more conservative ones, and the majority over doctrinal issues,” he said.

Also consider this article: Losing our Religion: Conservative churches grapple with gender issues in time of growth

Quote

U.S. church attendance is dropping, but Hope Church in Memphis, Tennessee, is packing the pews — or, in Hope’s case, modern theater seats with individual cup holders.

The Evangelical Presbyterian Church affiliate, one of the fastest-growing in the nation, holds four services each weekend to accommodate the nearly 7,000 parishioners who come for the multiethnic community, the coffee kiosks, the mix of contemporary and traditional music, the outreach to non-churchgoers, and the biblically based message.

Hope’s conservative stance on human sexuality — faithfulness in marriage, chastity in singleness, and marriage between one man and one woman — has done little, if anything, to rein in the church’s galloping growth.

...

A 2016 study led by Wilfrid Laurier University professor David Millard Haskell found that the “recipe for church growth” was conservative theology coupled with worship music featuring drums and guitars, but he said he thinks the growth has hit a wall since then.

He also said cultural upheaval of gender issues and the battles it entails — such as same-sex wedding cakes, public accommodations and transgender athletes — is taking a toll.

“What’s going on in the culture with the greater acceptance of gay marriage will make it harder for churches promoting traditional views,” Mr. Haskell said.

But he added: “If a church stuck with their traditional views and were able to articulate it in a way that met the hearts and minds, the best research shows that keeping to those traditional values will cause your church to grow.”

...

Blaming same-sex marriage for the decline of Christian churchgoers in America would be too simplistic, religious scholars say, given that the slide can be traced to the turn of the century — the 19th century — and picked up steam during the sexual revolution of the 1960s.

Mainline denominations that flowed with societal changes, such as the Episcopal Church, the Presbyterian Church (USA), the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, and the United Church of Christ “have all seen dramatic declines in their membership and attendance as they liberalize their teachings on human sexuality,” said Keith Boyette, president of the Wesleyan Covenant Association.

He said the same is true with the United Methodist Church, a mainline denomination grappling with a schism over same-sex marriage that is expected to play out at the general conference in May.

“In my opinion, as the church has become more reflective of culture, it has declined,” Mr. Boyette said. “Because why do you need to go to church if it says the same thing you hear on the street every day?”

Mr. Haskell said the mainline Protestant churches are in a “death spiral.”

But the United Church of Christ’s Michael Schuenemeyer said the church’s embrace of LGBTQ rights in many ways has energized the denomination.

He said UCC churches that are affirming of LGBTQ — not all congregations are — have been “about 23-24% larger than the congregations that are not open and affirming.”

Thanks,

-Smac

[smac97]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Being sociopolitically popular has nothing to do with God. 

Well, it might be.  Sociopolitical popularity can have a significant impact on one's relationship with God.

John 6 has the Savior saying things that were sociopolitically unpopular. 

Christ preached a gospel that was not going to be popular in the minds of an increasingly wicked world.  He knew that.  But He preached it anyway.  I think He knew beforehand that His message would alienate many people, including some otherwise good and decent people.  But He preached anyway.  I think He did so because those who were ready for His message needed to hear it, and needed to be gathered out of the World.  

Perhaps this is why He said: "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword."  Perhaps this is why He also said (several times, actually) : "Behold, I am God; give heed unto my word, which is quick and powerful, sharper than a two-edged sword, to the dividing asunder of both joints and marrow; therefore give heed unto my words."  Christ also said: "He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me."  Christ also said "For if ye will not abide in my covenant ye are not worthy of me."  

My dad and I were talking about these things a while back, some of which have been described as the "dark sayings of Jesus."  My dad noted that some people focus on the "sweetness and light" sayings of the Savior, which is probably fine - unless that focus is exclusionary.  Christ had warnings for us, after all.  Such as this: "If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you."  And this: "The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil."   And this: "Therefore, fear not, little flock; do good; let earth and hell combine against you, for if ye are built upon my rock, they cannot prevail."   And this: "For by doing these things the gates of hell shall not prevail against you; yea, and the Lord God will disperse the powers of darkness from before you, and cause the heavens to shake for your good, and his name’s glory."

We have been told to expect to be sociopolitically unpopular because we believe in and teach things that contravene prevailing social trends, but which are in accordance with the revelations.

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

If Ronald MacDonald has a burger stand, he might not be trying to appeal to God for success.  Worldly success might just be based on other things than God.

Sure.  But sociopolitical popularity or unpopularity can have quite a bit to do with one's position on (what we believe to be) revealed truths.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Amulek]

1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said:

That's an interesting spin. 

That's kind of what I thought about Sir Elton's criticism - or at least, your summation of it (which I assume is substantively accurate). 

If the Catholic Church is hypocritical for not blessing gay marriages but has no objection to gays when it comes to the marketplace, then it seems to me that there are only two ways to remedy said hypocrisy: (1) start blessing gay unions, or (2) actively discriminate against gays in the marketplace.

Like I said before, I doubt the LGBTQ community would think any higher of the Catholic Church if they were to go with Option 2. 

 

Quote

It's more akin (in my mind) to hotel chains owned by Mormons who decry p0rn yet sell it as part of their business to make some easy $$$

And in my mind it's more like a Christian bookstore which sells anti-Mormon literature but also refuses to discriminate against Latter-day Saints when it comes to hiring and promoting talent. 

 

[california boy]

Americans are leaving all religion at alarming rates.  The fastest growing church in America is no church.  To put the success or failure of a church solely on the backs of LGBT issues is missing the fundamental reason why people no long believer in organized religion.  LGBT issues are a symptom of the problem rather than being the only problem.  According to Gallop, confidence in organized religion fell below the majority level for the first time in 2002, and with some fluctuations along the way, confidence this year has reached a new low of 36%.  Did you get that?  Only 36% of the population trusts organized religion.  

Simply put, more and more Americans no long believe that organized religion is lead by God or knows the will of God.  They increasingly question the absolute authority of the Bible when so many things in the Bible that were once thought to be true have been disproven.  Things like Adam and Eve being the first humans, or a universal flood.  There are too many stances that organized religion has taken that seem counter to the gospel that Christ taught. 

Framing the success or failure of any religious group solely based on whether they are accepting of LGBT couples is not an entirely accurate measurement, it is only a symptom.  From the Gallop article:

Quote

 

There is the evident fact that organized religion has, in recent years, been shooting itself in the foot:

• The Catholic priest abuse scandals have been recurring features in the news for almost two decades now, since The Boston Globe reported its 2002 Pulitzer Prize-winning series on abuse coverup by the Catholic hierarchy.

• Southern Baptists were roiled this year by allegations of sexual harassment and abuse among that denomination's leaders.

• The United Methodist Church has been in the news regarding major, denomination-splitting arguments about same-sex marriage and allowing LGBT individuals to be clergy members (at a time when Americans as a whole, including in particular young people, are becoming more accepting of LGBT-related issues).

• Recent headlines have focused on the controversial firing of the pastor of the famed Riverside Church on Manhattan's Upper West Side, with news stories focused on sexual harassment allegations and a purported sex-shop visit during a religious conference trip.

These stories are unlikely to increase the average American's confidence in organized religion.

Another focus relating to organized religion in recent years has been the relationship between religion and politics -- particularly the connection between religious Protestants and right-wing partisanship. This includes the highly visible support of prominent evangelical leaders for President Donald Trump and his policies. As I've noted, the support that evangelicals and the Religious Right give to Trump may be encouraging to Republicans, but is certainly not designed to give independents and Democrats higher levels of confidence in organized religion. As Professor Michele Margolis at the University of Pennsylvania has concluded, "Individuals' partisan identities profoundly shape their engagement in the religious sphere." Those who are not Republicans may well find the Republican-Religious Right connection does little to increase their esteem for religious institutions.

 

For far too long, organized religion has drawn firm lines in the sand over who is wicked and who is a true follower of Christ.  They see the message of Christ as being a way bigger tent than organized religion is willing to allow.  Many now conclude that those lines may be arbitrarily drawn by man rather than God. Many have concluded through their own spiritual experience that you can be a good person, a believer in Christ, and still be married to the person you love. If Christ has a problem with that, then let Him deal with it in the next life, rather than some arbitrary church leader who may be just as clueless as to the will of God as everyone else.  Claims of church leaders knowing the will of God have been proven wrong over and over again.  Simply put, religion has lost the trust of the people.

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, smac97 said:

...............................

.....  There are all sorts of things that are sociopolitically popular but immoral (lax sexual ethics, for example), and others that are profoundly moral while being sociopolitically unpopular (disagreement with same-sex marriage being a good example).

As for seeking success through socipolitical popularity, particularly in terms of capitulating to prevailing social winds regarding sexual behaviors and same-sex marriage, no, I don't see that as a formula for success.  ...................

Your thinking on this is upside down and backwards, Spencer.

2 hours ago, smac97 said:

...........................

Shrinkage:

.......................:

The Presbyterians?  There's this:

Has any religious denomination improved its membership figures or activity rates by endorsing same-sex marriage?  It seems not (from 2019) :................

Also consider this article: Losing our Religion: Conservative churches grapple with gender issues in time of growth................

Woke nonsense is not the same as popularity, sociopolitical or otherwise.  The LDS Church maintains its growth by following popular lines of religious thought, and is consequently sociopolitically popular.
 

Quote

 

John 6 has the Savior saying things that were sociopolitically unpopular. 

Christ preached a gospel that was not going to be popular in the minds of an increasingly wicked world.  ...........................

........................ the "dark sayings of Jesus."  My dad noted that some people focus on the "sweetness and light" sayings of the Savior, which is probably fine - unless that focus is exclusionary. ...................

We have been told to expect to be sociopolitically unpopular because we believe in and teach things that contravene prevailing social trends, but which are in accordance with the revelations.

 

f what you say is true, Spencer, then why is that unpopularity so popular?  Why is it that the churches which are soft on LGBTQI issues are losing members so fast?  You are exactly wrong on your assessment.

[teddyaware]

14 minutes ago, california boy said:

Americans are leaving all religion at alarming rates.  The fastest growing church in America is no church.  To put the success or failure of a church solely on the backs of LGBT issues is missing the fundamental reason why people no long believer in organized religion.  LGBT issues are a symptom of the problem rather than being the only problem.  According to Gallop, confidence in organized religion fell below the majority level for the first time in 2002, and with some fluctuations along the way, confidence this year has reached a new low of 36%.  Did you get that?  Only 36% of the population trusts organized religion.  

Simply put, more and more Americans no long believe that organized religion is lead by God or knows the will of God.  They increasingly question the absolute authority of the Bible when so many things in the Bible that were once thought to be true have been disproven.  Things like Adam and Eve being the first humans, or a universal flood.  There are too many stances that organized religion has taken that seem counter to the gospel that Christ taught. 

Framing the success or failure of any religious group solely based on whether they are accepting of LGBT couples is not an entirely accurate measurement, it is only a symptom.  From the Gallop article:

 

For far too long, organized religion has drawn firm lines in the sand over who is wicked and who is a true follower of Christ.  They see the message of Christ as being a way bigger tent than organized religion is willing to allow.  Many now conclude that those lines may be arbitrarily drawn by man rather than God. Many have concluded through their own spiritual experience that you can be a good person, a believer in Christ, and still be married to the person you love. If Christ has a problem with that, then let Him deal with it in the next life, rather than some arbitrary church leader who may be just as clueless as to the will of God as everyone else.  Claims of church leaders knowing the will of God have been proven wrong over and over again.  Simply put, religion has lost the trust of the people.

The phenomenon that Americans are leaving religions at “alarming rates” is in fulfillment of the great prophecy found in 1 Nephi 14 that testifies prior to the Second Coming of Christ there will be a great division among all the people of the earth who will eventually have only two choices set before them —  align with the Church of the Lamb of God or align with the Church of the Devil. The prophecy makes it clear that the vast majority of the earth’s population will align themselves with the Church of the devil, while the comparatively few who remain will become allied with the Church of the Lamb of God. We have also been similarly forewarned, by the Apostle John in the Book of Revelation, that all but a small remnant of the world’s population will be deceived by the devil, for they will be beguiled to mistakenly believe the cause of the church of the devil is just. Both Nephi and John go on to further warn that the time will come when the overwhelming multitude who have become allied with the devil will wage a war of persecution against Christ and his earthly Church. Here are portions of Nephi’s prophecy:

7 For the time cometh, saith the Lamb of God, that I will work a great and a marvelous work among the children of men; a work which shall be everlasting, either on the one hand or on the other—either to the convincing of them unto peace and life eternal, or unto the deliverance of them to the hardness of their hearts and the blindness of their minds unto their being brought down into captivity, and also into destruction, both temporally and spiritually, according to the captivity of the devil, of which I have spoken.
8 And it came to pass that when the angel had spoken these words, he said unto me: Rememberest thou the covenants of the Father unto the house of Israel? I said unto him, Yea.
9 And it came to pass that he said unto me: Look, and behold that great and abominable church, which is the mother of abominations, whose founder is the devil.
10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.
11 And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the whore of all the earth, and she sat upon many waters; and she had dominion over all the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people.
12 And it came to pass that I beheld the church of the Lamb of God, and its numbers were few, because of the wickedness and abominations of the whore who sat upon many waters; nevertheless, I beheld that the church of the Lamb, who were the saints of God, were also upon all the face of the earth; and their dominions upon the face of the earth were small, because of the wickedness of the great whore whom I saw.
13 And it came to pass that I beheld that the great mother of abominations did gather together multitudes upon the face of all the earth, among all the nations of the Gentiles, to fight against the Lamb of God. (1 Nephi 14)

There’s nothing at all surprising about the current state of affairs on earth, during this latter part of the latter-days, for those who are acquainted with the Word of God.

 

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

Americans are leaving all religion at alarming rates.

I think you may have trouble backing up this bold claim with data. There are in fact religious groups (including Christian ones) in America that are growing. Beyond that, some have merely plateaued, and not all of the rest are seeing 'alarming decline'.

For example:

Quote

It’s true that denomination-based churches—Methodist, Baptist, Episcopal, Catholic—have been on a downward slope for years. But nondenominational evangelical churches are growing in number, from 54,000 in 1998 to 84,000 in 2012, according to the Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion. Pew Research data show a similar trend continuing to the present, with steep declines among mainline churches as evangelical ones keep popping up. And 42% of these new congregations report growing attendance, data from Lifeway Research shows.

...

Naysayers point to data showing millennials are significantly less religious than previous generations. Yet half of them are still in their 20s, and much of the reporting about their secular outlook ignores how age affects belief and practice. Every recent generation has experienced significant post-high-school drops in church attendance, but most wayward youths return after marrying and having children. Given that the average age for marriage has increased seven years since the 1940s, it’s too soon to dismiss millennials as godless.

And despite the rise of the “nones”—those who don’t identify with any religion—evangelical Protestants and Muslims are increasing in number. Christian and Muslim birthrates also outpace those of the nones, not that they should be written off anyway.

Readers of this forum may be interested in this conclusion from the reputable Pew Forum:

Quote

The share of Americans who describe themselves as Mormons has held steady at 2% over the past decade.

Globally, the trend is even more positive:

Quote

If you think religion belongs to the past and we live in a new age of reason, you need to check out the facts: 84% of the world’s population identifies with a religious group. Members of this demographic are generally younger and produce more children than those who have no religious affiliation, so the world is getting more religious, not less – although there are significant geographical variations.

...

The short answer is religion is on the wane in western Europe and North America, and it’s growing everywhere else.

...

And while the religiously unaffiliated currently make up 16% of the global population, only about 10% of the world’s newborns were born to religiously unaffiliated mothers between 2010 and 2015.

...

China has seen a huge religious revival in recent years and some predict it will have the world’s largest Christian population by 2030. The number of Chinese Protestants has grown by an average of 10 % annually since 1979, to between 93 million and 115 million, according to one estimate. There are reckoned to be another 10-12 million Catholics.

Anecdotally, a member of our mission presidency was here for a training meeting this past weekend. He noted that, whilst the mission lost 73 per cent of its manpower because of the pandemic, the baptism rate has literally never been higher.

Edited March 18, 2021 by Hamba Tuhan

[JustAnAustralian]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

According to Gallop, confidence in organized religion fell below the majority level for the first time in 2002, and with some fluctuations along the way, confidence this year has reached a new low of 36%

That data (from 2019) also shows confidence in the medical system as 36%. Of course, it's not confidence it's "a great deal/quite a lot" of confidence. "Some" confidence is 36 for religion. So the actual confidence amount is 72%.

[california boy]

1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I think you may have trouble backing up this bold claim with data. There are in fact religious groups (including Christian ones) in America that are growing. Beyond that, some have merely plateaued, and not all of the rest are seeing 'alarming decline'.

For example:

Readers of this forum may be interested in this conclusion from the reputable Pew Forum:

Globally, the trend is even more positive:

Anecdotally, a member of our mission presidency was here for a training meeting this past weekend. He noted that, whilst the mission lost 73 per cent of its manpower because of the pandemic, the baptism rate has literally never been higher.

First, I clearly was taking about American religious affiliations.  And every single chart you referred to shows a decrease in religious affiliation.  Not sure where you are getting that religious affiliation is growing in the United States from the Pew report you referred to.

From the Pew report you cited:

In the U.S. the number of "nones" has grown by nearly 30 million over the past decade.  That is more leaving religion in the past decade than all of the Catholics and Mormons combined in the United States.  How can you possibly say that religion is growing in the United States?

From the Pew study you referenced

 

Can you point to any positive numbers in the entire country where affiliation with organized religion is on the rise in the United States?  

Quote

It’s true that denomination-based churches—Methodist, Baptist, Episcopal, Catholic—have been on a downward slope for years. But nondenominational evangelical churches are growing in number, from 54,000 in 1998 to 84,000 in 2012, according to the Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion. Pew Research data show a similar trend continuing to the present, with steep declines among mainline churches as evangelical ones keep popping up. And 42% of these new congregations report growing attendance, data from Lifeway Research shows.

This is hilarious.  Main stream religions have lost 30 million members in the past decade but you point to 30,000 growth to counter that statistic?  I honestly don't get where you are coming from.  The data is so incredibly clear.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 18, 2021 by california boy

[california boy]

1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

The phenomenon that Americans are leaving religions at “alarming rates” is in fulfillment of the great prophecy found in 1 Nephi 14 that testifies prior to the Second Coming of Christ there will be a great division among all the people of the earth who will eventually have only two choices set before them —  align with the Church of the Lamb of God or align with the Church of the Devil. The prophecy makes it clear that the vast majority of the earth’s population will align themselves with the Church of the devil, while the comparatively few who remain will become allied with the Church of the Lamb of God. We have also been similarly forewarned, by the Apostle John in the Book of Revelation, that all but a small remnant of the world’s population will be deceived by the devil, for they will be beguiled to mistakenly believe the cause of the church of the devil is just. Both Nephi and John go on to further warn that the time will come when the overwhelming multitude who have become allied with the devil will wage a war of persecution against Christ and his earthly Church. Here are portions of Nephi’s prophecy:

7 For the time cometh, saith the Lamb of God, that I will work a great and a marvelous work among the children of men; a work which shall be everlasting, either on the one hand or on the other—either to the convincing of them unto peace and life eternal, or unto the deliverance of them to the hardness of their hearts and the blindness of their minds unto their being brought down into captivity, and also into destruction, both temporally and spiritually, according to the captivity of the devil, of which I have spoken.
8 And it came to pass that when the angel had spoken these words, he said unto me: Rememberest thou the covenants of the Father unto the house of Israel? I said unto him, Yea.
9 And it came to pass that he said unto me: Look, and behold that great and abominable church, which is the mother of abominations, whose founder is the devil.
10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.
11 And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the whore of all the earth, and she sat upon many waters; and she had dominion over all the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people.
12 And it came to pass that I beheld the church of the Lamb of God, and its numbers were few, because of the wickedness and abominations of the whore who sat upon many waters; nevertheless, I beheld that the church of the Lamb, who were the saints of God, were also upon all the face of the earth; and their dominions upon the face of the earth were small, because of the wickedness of the great whore whom I saw.
13 And it came to pass that I beheld that the great mother of abominations did gather together multitudes upon the face of all the earth, among all the nations of the Gentiles, to fight against the Lamb of God. (1 Nephi 14)

There’s nothing at all surprising about the current state of affairs on earth, during this latter part of the latter-days, for those who are acquainted with the Word of God.

 

Well then everything is going according to plan.  Catholic priest molesting minors and sexual harassment charges against Protestant leaders, is all part of God's plan to thin out the followers of Christ.  Nothing to worry about here.  All is well in Zion.

[Duncan]

2 hours ago, teddyaware said:

The phenomenon that Americans are leaving religions at “alarming rates” is in fulfillment of the great prophecy found in 1 Nephi 14 that testifies prior to the Second Coming of Christ there will be a great division among all the people of the earth who will eventually have only two choices set before them —  align with the Church of the Lamb of God or align with the Church of the Devil. The prophecy makes it clear that the vast majority of the earth’s population will align themselves with the Church of the devil, while the comparatively few who remain will become allied with the Church of the Lamb of God. We have also been similarly forewarned, by the Apostle John in the Book of Revelation, that all but a small remnant of the world’s population will be deceived by the devil, for they will be beguiled to mistakenly believe the cause of the church of the devil is just. Both Nephi and John go on to further warn that the time will come when the overwhelming multitude who have become allied with the devil will wage a war of persecution against Christ and his earthly Church. Here are portions of Nephi’s prophecy:

7 For the time cometh, saith the Lamb of God, that I will work a great and a marvelous work among the children of men; a work which shall be everlasting, either on the one hand or on the other—either to the convincing of them unto peace and life eternal, or unto the deliverance of them to the hardness of their hearts and the blindness of their minds unto their being brought down into captivity, and also into destruction, both temporally and spiritually, according to the captivity of the devil, of which I have spoken.
8 And it came to pass that when the angel had spoken these words, he said unto me: Rememberest thou the covenants of the Father unto the house of Israel? I said unto him, Yea.
9 And it came to pass that he said unto me: Look, and behold that great and abominable church, which is the mother of abominations, whose founder is the devil.
10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.
11 And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the whore of all the earth, and she sat upon many waters; and she had dominion over all the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people.
12 And it came to pass that I beheld the church of the Lamb of God, and its numbers were few, because of the wickedness and abominations of the whore who sat upon many waters; nevertheless, I beheld that the church of the Lamb, who were the saints of God, were also upon all the face of the earth; and their dominions upon the face of the earth were small, because of the wickedness of the great whore whom I saw.
13 And it came to pass that I beheld that the great mother of abominations did gather together multitudes upon the face of all the earth, among all the nations of the Gentiles, to fight against the Lamb of God. (1 Nephi 14)

There’s nothing at all surprising about the current state of affairs on earth, during this latter part of the latter-days, for those who are acquainted with the Word of God.

 

There's also nothing in the there about this happening prior to the Second Coming, so you'll have to adjust your thinking

Edited March 18, 2021 by Duncan

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

Not sure where you are getting that religious affiliation is growing in the United States from the Pew report you referred to.

You wrote, 'Americans are leaving all religion at alarming rates'. This is simply not true. Americans are leaving certain religious groups in very large numbers, and they are leaving certain other religious groups in smaller numbers. Still other religious groups are growing at about the same rate as population growth (this is where Latter-day Saints currently fit in), and certain other religious groups are seeing 'alarming' growth. This is all in the links I provided ... and is a much fuller, more accurate picture than the one you're trying to paint.

Quote

Can you point to any positive numbers in the entire country where affiliation with organized religion is on the rise in the United States?  

Yes, it's actually in the links I provided above. Here's another one: We are still awaiting the 2020 update, but the 2010 Census of Religion showed 'that nondenominational, independent congregations and the Mormon and Muslim religions have been the fastest-growing segments [in the US] over the past decade'. Meanwhile, between 2000 and 2010, Eastern Orthodox congregations grew by 13 per cent, and Oriental Orthodox congregations grew by 35 per cent.

Quote

Main stream religions have lost 30 million members in the past decade but you point to 30,000 growth to counter that statistic?

Er, that's not 30,000 people. It's 30,000 new churches.

I'm at work and lack the time to search the archives, but as others have posted on this forum before, it appears to many sociologists that much of the recent growth of the 'nones' in the US can be attributed to people who in times past would have remained nominal Christians. The same studies have shown that religiosity amongst many of the rest is actually increasing. Maybe @Calm or someone else with an encyclopaedic memory can remember where/when this was posted before? These are important contributions to a discussion such as this.

Edited March 18, 2021 by Hamba Tuhan