MustardSeed Posted February 16, 2021 Posted February 16, 2021 Elder Packer spoke in Fall 1985 conference about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints as being the only true church, and while he acknowledged that this was at times harsh to the ears of investigators, that it is accurate and must be taught. "We do not join associations of clergy or councils of churches. We keep our distance from the ecumenical movements. The restored gospel is the means by which Christians must ultimately be united." If this quote interests you enough to comment, I'll encourage you to read the talk, as it provides complete context. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1985/10/the-only-true-church?lang=eng
Scott Lloyd Posted February 16, 2021 Posted February 16, 2021 What is your definition of ecumenical, particularly as it pertains to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?
MustardSeed Posted February 16, 2021 Author Posted February 16, 2021 I suppose I'm more interested in the apostle's definition, though we can no longer ask him. However since you asked me, I'll go by the Webster definition which is to say unity among all religions. In his talk he refers to more specifics around that. I'm wondering if his talk would be given today. It seems that greater efforts have been made to connect with other religions and to show our christianity through our similarities rather than to separate ourselves as much as he purports in his talk.
teddyaware Posted February 16, 2021 Posted February 16, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, MustardSeed said: I suppose I'm more interested in the apostle's definition, though we can no longer ask him. However since you asked me, I'll go by the Webster definition which is to say unity among all religions. In his talk he refers to more specifics around that. I'm wondering if his talk would be given today. It seems that greater efforts have been made to connect with other religions and to show our christianity through our similarities rather than to separate ourselves as much as he purports in his talk. Before throwing my two cents into this discussion, I’m wondering if you believe it would be a good thing if the leaders of the Church gave up on teaching that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is the only true and living Church on the earth, and instead directed the Church to go full throttle into ecumenism, to the point that the Church gives up on it’s on its claims to exclusive divine priesthood authority in order for the Church organization to be eventually absorbed into a unified worldwide ecumenical religion? Edited February 16, 2021 by teddyaware 1
Popular Post rchorse Posted February 16, 2021 Popular Post Posted February 16, 2021 While I do think church leaders have become more diplomatic in their language, I don't see any real attempt to distance the church from being the only true church. I did a quick search on the church's website and came up with several talks from the last 10 years or so that talk about it. If the church were to give up on its claims to sole authority and being the only true church, it would not grow, but gradually fade away. I, for one, would look for an easier church to belong to if I thought all churches had the same authority. 10
bluebell Posted February 16, 2021 Posted February 16, 2021 2 hours ago, MustardSeed said: I suppose I'm more interested in the apostle's definition, though we can no longer ask him. However since you asked me, I'll go by the Webster definition which is to say unity among all religions. In his talk he refers to more specifics around that. I'm wondering if his talk would be given today. It seems that greater efforts have been made to connect with other religions and to show our christianity through our similarities rather than to separate ourselves as much as he purports in his talk. I think the church looks for ways to be unified with other religions, but it does not do so by seeking doctrinal unification. If doctrinal unity among all religions is how Elder Packer was using the term ecumenial, then I think he's still right today. We are not ecumenial. 4
Popular Post CV75 Posted February 16, 2021 Popular Post Posted February 16, 2021 4 hours ago, MustardSeed said: Elder Packer spoke in Fall 1985 conference about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints as being the only true church, and while he acknowledged that this was at times harsh to the ears of investigators, that it is accurate and must be taught. "We do not join associations of clergy or councils of churches. We keep our distance from the ecumenical movements. The restored gospel is the means by which Christians must ultimately be united." If this quote interests you enough to comment, I'll encourage you to read the talk, as it provides complete context. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1985/10/the-only-true-church?lang=eng For better context, i read the paragraphs surrounding this one: "In obedience we remain independent. While we cooperate with others to reach mutual objectives, we do it in our own way. We do not recognize the ordinances performed in other churches. We will not exchange baptisms, a practice which has become commonplace in the Christian world. "We do not join associations of clergy or councils of churches. We keep our distance from the ecumenical movements. The restored gospel is the means by which Christians must ultimately be united. "We do not claim that others have no truth. The Lord described them as having “a form of godliness.” Converts to the Church may bring with them all the truth they possess and have it added upon." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecumenism : "The ultimate goal of ecumenism is the recognition of sacramental validity, eucharistic sharing, and the reaching of full communion between different Christian denominations." It is not general cooperation to facilitate good relations or jointly provide humanitarian aid or strengthen a common political or social posiotn. 5
Robert F. Smith Posted February 16, 2021 Posted February 16, 2021 (edited) 4 hours ago, MustardSeed said: Elder Packer spoke in Fall 1985 conference about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints as being the only true church, and while he acknowledged that this was at times harsh to the ears of investigators, that it is accurate and must be taught. "We do not join associations of clergy or councils of churches. We keep our distance from the ecumenical movements. The restored gospel is the means by which Christians must ultimately be united.".......................... The Community of Christ (formerly the RLDS Church) is a member of the National Council of Churches (NCC): Quote On November 10, delegates at the General Assembly of the National Council of Churches USA (NCC) approved Community of Christ for membership. The NCC is a community of Christian communions that represents a wide range of Christian traditions and experiences. President Becky Savage, Ecumenical and Interfaith Officer Dale E. Luffman, and former Ecumenical and Interfaith Officer Gail Mengel represented the church at the NCC’s historic Centennial Conference. Community of Christ’s application for membership in the National Council of Churches (NCC) was a response World Conference actions. It responded to counsel given in 2000 in Doctrine and Covenants 161:1b to “Claim your unique and sacred place within the circle of those who call upon the name of Jesus Christ.” It also culminates a journey that began at our 1980 World Conference when delegates approved World Conference Resolution (WCR) 1157 Participation in Interdenominational Christian Ministries. Later legislation included 1992 approval of WCR 1222 Interfaith Organizations, and 2002 approval of WCR 1275 Ecumenical/ Interfaith Memberships. https://www.stephenjbedard.com/2010/12/07/community-of-christ-and-the-national-council-of-churches/ Edited February 16, 2021 by Robert F. Smith
Ahab Posted February 16, 2021 Posted February 16, 2021 7 hours ago, MustardSeed said: I suppose I'm more interested in the apostle's definition, though we can no longer ask him. However since you asked me, I'll go by the Webster definition which is to say unity among all religions. In his talk he refers to more specifics around that. I'm wondering if his talk would be given today. It seems that greater efforts have been made to connect with other religions and to show our christianity through our similarities rather than to separate ourselves as much as he purports in his talk. No, we/our Church is not united with other churches in the way they seek to be united with each other. We are/our Church is the only true church of Jesus Christ, the same church the apostles/prophets of the Bible were and are in, and we mean it when we say only, so if anyone in some other church wants to be a member of it with us then they must join with us, because "we" will not be joining them in their church.
Scott Lloyd Posted February 16, 2021 Posted February 16, 2021 (edited) 8 hours ago, MustardSeed said: I suppose I'm more interested in the apostle's definition, though we can no longer ask him. However since you asked me, I'll go by the Webster definition which is to say unity among all religions. In his talk he refers to more specifics around that. I'm wondering if his talk would be given today. It seems that greater efforts have been made to connect with other religions and to show our christianity through our similarities rather than to separate ourselves as much as he purports in his talk. You cite a very brief and broad definition. What are its implications? What is meant by “unity”? Do you mean an institutional merger between The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and other religious organizations? Shall our leaders get together in one grand council with leaders of other faith groups, similar to the Council at Nicea, and hammer out a consensus and compromise on what is true and what isn’t? Edited February 16, 2021 by Scott Lloyd 1
The Nehor Posted February 17, 2021 Posted February 17, 2021 We avoid it mostly to avoid corruptions of doctrine and joining our voice in a chorus of others where we would have to ****er over having our views heard in any kind of joint statement. There are exceptions to this but not a lot and the Church does participate in some forums but we are not going to be a deeply ecumenical church outside of maybe service opportunities. 4
Scott Lloyd Posted February 17, 2021 Posted February 17, 2021 If one explores thoroughly the meaning of ecumenicism, it becomes clear that it goes far beyond merely joining with other religious groups in donating to the local food bank or participating in the local interfaith Christmas concert. So, in response to the questions in the OP, I believe Elder Packer was expressing the orthodox position of the Church, a position that hasn’t changed over the years. Nor should it. Nor will it. 1
carbon dioxide Posted February 17, 2021 Posted February 17, 2021 13 hours ago, rchorse said: If the church were to give up on its claims to sole authority and being the only true church, it would not grow, but gradually fade away. I, for one, would look for an easier church to belong to if I thought all churches had the same authority. There would be no purpose for its existence. It would be 1829 again. 3
Stargazer Posted February 17, 2021 Posted February 17, 2021 19 hours ago, bluebell said: I think the church looks for ways to be unified with other religions, but it does not do so by seeking doctrinal unification. If doctrinal unity among all religions is how Elder Packer was using the term ecumenial, then I think he's still right today. We are not ecumenial. I think a good term might be "social" rather than "ecumenical" unity. 1
Scott Lloyd Posted February 17, 2021 Posted February 17, 2021 22 hours ago, bluebell said: I think the church looks for ways to be unified with other religions, but it does not do so by seeking doctrinal unification. If doctrinal unity among all religions is how Elder Packer was using the term ecumenial, then I think he's still right today. We are not ecumenial. The term “ecumenial” has shown up twice in this thread. I tried to look it up but couldn’t find it. My hunch is that MustardSeed intended to write ecumenical but inadvertently left out a letter. 2
MustardSeed Posted February 17, 2021 Author Posted February 17, 2021 Thank you for all your thoughts, I was prepping for seminary and needed additional discussion points, very helpful. Yes, obvious typo in header. Thank you for your patience. 2
Kenngo1969 Posted February 17, 2021 Posted February 17, 2021 (edited) 18 hours ago, The Nehor said: We avoid it mostly to avoid corruptions of doctrine and joining our voice in a chorus of others where we would have to ****er over having our views heard in any kind of joint statement. There are exceptions to this but not a lot and the Church does participate in some forums but we are not going to be a deeply ecumenical church outside of maybe service opportunities. I'm shocked, just shocked, at the kind of language that is being allowed on the forum nowadays! Sorry. Couldn't resist! Carry on! P.S.: Of course, you can richarder over my opinion if you'd like. P.P.S.: Reminds me of the trouble I had when I was trying to quote, with attribution, BYU Law Professor Fred Gerichards on the forum. Edited February 17, 2021 by Kenngo1969 1
Kenngo1969 Posted February 17, 2021 Posted February 17, 2021 Any efforts toward being ecumenical should be viewed in light of this: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/the-restoration-of-the-fulness-of-the-gospel-of-jesus-christ/a-bicentennial-proclamation-to-the-world?lang=eng And perhaps in light of this: https://greatgourdini.wordpress.com/2012/04/16/toward-interreligious-oneness/
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