Tacenda Posted January 21, 2021 Posted January 21, 2021 4 hours ago, The Nehor said: There were literal calls to make him king or dictator. It is going to take years to clean up the mess. Add prophet to the list, many think he's a prophet for our time.
Tacenda Posted January 21, 2021 Posted January 21, 2021 6 hours ago, pogi said: One thing that I will credit this Captain Moroni figure with is if he truly believed that his cause was just and that the election was stolen and that our democracy and our nation is under attack, then he was in the right place doing the right thing. He is the hero of our nation! What I don't understand are those who claim that their cause is just but that they disagree with the methods of those who fought to maintain the republic. If our democracy and our republic has truly been stolen, then that is just cause for war. We have lost countless lives in defense of our nation and are not afraid to defend the sanctity of liberty and the sanctity of the vote. If Trump truly believed his claims, why in the world would he call for a peaceful transition of power and hand the nation into the hands of thieves of liberty and democracy without inciting war in defense of the nation? Why would he condemn the actions of the patriots who attempted to uphold freedom? That would truly make him the biggest coward and loser in all of history, to hand over the nation so willingly when it had been stolen. To not stand up and fight, even raising up armies and navies, and by putting lives on the line in defending our nation against thieves of the republic, would be an unforgivable offense. That is a cause to fight for. That is a cause to die for. Who are these people who agree with the cause and yet stand by idly and watch thieves steel the republic in the night and do nothing? If their cause was just and right, the only true patriots in America were the handful of people storming the capital that day. Everyone else who agrees with the cause but who did nothing, and even worse, condemned their actions, can we truly call these people patriots? They are the traitors and the weaklings of the nation. Our republic is lost and we do nothing? THAT, I can't understand. That is why I think a lot of people give lip-service but don't truly believe deep down that America is lost. If so, they are cowards of the highest magnitude to condemn the heroes and patriots who stormed the capital. And it must be lost forever, because what is to stop these thieves in the future? Not even the most powerful man in the world can stop them, and now they are in power. What can possibly stop them but war? To agree with their cause and yet to condemn their actions is as unpatriotic as it gets. At least, that's how I see it. They are either heroes or enemies of the republic. To agree with their cause and yet condemn them for their actions is to intentionally forfeit the nation. Not for a second would I stand by idly if I believed a thief was in the White House and our Republic was being overthrown - where my vote no longer counts. And our founding fathers who put in the rules that if a president suspects fraud they are allowed to take it to courts of law. Trump used that right but time and time again the lawyers couldn't prove that there had been fraud. And really if one thinks about it, wouldn't it discount all the republicans who one in the election? It just throws thing off by making many distrust the process and hurts our democracy in terrible ways. I do think we can make it a much tighter vote and be careful with votes from dead people, but I'll bet those were made by widows who go by their deceased husband's name, I read this actually happened and probably wasn't a single case. I think there's always room for improvement.
sunstoned Posted January 21, 2021 Posted January 21, 2021 7 hours ago, Chum said: History is littered with war-dead children who I suspect disagreed with this, in the moments before their death. Any more when I hear the word 'war', I substitute 'kill children' - because that is an important part of what we do when we war. Amen. War is the gravest of all extremes.
pogi Posted January 21, 2021 Posted January 21, 2021 (edited) 17 hours ago, bluebell said: A small well-armed group of extremists, supported by millions who are mildly supportive of their cause, could destabilize a polarized country fairly quickly. ..and fed fuel by the President of the United States... I agree. Trump should have thought of that before speaking. 17 hours ago, bluebell said: But I didn't say your words were double edged because they could start a war. I said they were double edged because they both condone and also condemn a war fought by people who sincerely believed their representative government was in danger. Perhaps I am not speaking clearly, but in no way have I condoned any attempt at war based on any sincere personal belief. Personal sincere belief is not the appropriate measure of justice when it comes to war. We have a constitutional judicial system and congressional system appointed by the people in place to weigh such evidences. Both were utilized and found the evidence sorely lacking. This was not a biased case. These were judges appointed by Trump who mocked his evidence, and strong Trump supporters in congress overwhelmingly voted to sustain the count and thereby dismiss his claims. To start a war in disregard of their judgment would be to trample the constitution under your feet and usurp authority over the constitution by then attacking the very constitutional process and congress that the people have put in place. Nope. I don't condone that. People "believe" all sorts of nonsense. That does not justify war. 17 hours ago, bluebell said: You would condone the action if you believed democracy was being threatened but also condemn it if those you disagree with believed democracy was being threatened. Not quite. I may condone the action if the judicial system and congress believed, based on evidence presented, that there was an active take-over of our democracy and Republic. 17 hours ago, bluebell said: I agree. I also know that there are many people who do believe there is evidence strong enough to justify war. It's a little frightening. I agree, it is frightening. Edited January 21, 2021 by pogi 1
pogi Posted January 21, 2021 Posted January 21, 2021 (edited) Duplicate Edited January 21, 2021 by pogi
bluebell Posted January 21, 2021 Posted January 21, 2021 1 hour ago, pogi said: ..and fed fuel by the President of the United States...I agree. Trump should have thought of that before speaking. Perhaps I am not speaking clearly, but in no way have I condoned any attempt at war based on any sincere personal belief. Personal sincere belief is not the appropriate measure of justice when it comes to war. We have a constitutional judicial system and congressional system appointed by the people in place to weigh such evidences. Both were utilized and found the evidence sorely lacking. This was not a biased case. These were judges appointed by Trump who mocked his evidence, and strong Trump supporters in congress overwhelmingly voted to sustain the count and thereby dismiss his claims. To start a war in disregard of their judgment would be to trample the constitution under your feet and usurp authority over the constitution by then attacking the very constitutional process and congress that the people have put in place. Nope. I don't condone that. People "believe" all sorts of nonsense. That does not justify war. Not quite. I may condone the action if the judicial system and congress believed, based on evidence presented, that there was an active take-over of our democracy and Republic. I agree, it is frightening. It seems like, if it became necessary for American citizens to start a war to save America, that it would not be possible to depend on the judicial or congressional system to determine anything. If those systems were functioning, war by patriot Americans likely wouldn't be necessary to save the republic, as the republic wouldn't be in danger if the courts and congress were still upholding the constitution, would it? 1
pogi Posted January 21, 2021 Posted January 21, 2021 (edited) 51 minutes ago, bluebell said: It seems like, if it became necessary for American citizens to start a war to save America, that it would not be possible to depend on the judicial or congressional system to determine anything. If those systems were functioning, war by patriot Americans likely wouldn't be necessary to save the republic, as the republic wouldn't be in danger if the courts and congress were still upholding the constitution, would it? That is the irony of it all. There are zero claims (that I am aware of) of judicial and congressional conspiracy or corruption to overthrow the Republic and democracy as we know it. It was all functioning under Donald Trump's command. This was Donald Trump heading the government, and Donald Trump's appointed judges, and Donald Trump's supporters who all disputed, rejected, and even mocked his claims. To justify war because of a corrupt judicial and congressional system, there would have to be evidence of corruption on a systemic scale which included most of the republican representatives and Trump appointed judges. There is not even a claim of such a conspiracy, let alone evidence of such. It is not enough to claim that they have been duped. Without evidence of a conspiracy on the judicial and congressional level that has infiltrated both parties, then there is absolutely no justifiable claim that the system was not functioning as intended - and therefore the judgments should be sustained as lawful and constitutionally protected. If they were all duped and the system failed, then the problem would be the system itself! War would not be justified in defending a broken and failed system of government that doesn't work and can't be trusted. Revolution? Perhaps. Any attempt to overthrow a government without evidence or even a claim of conspiracy on a systemic scale, would be an attack on the constitutional system of government itself. Therein lies the irony of what they did. They were attacking the constitutional system of government that they claim that they were trying to protect. Edited January 21, 2021 by pogi 2
longview Posted January 21, 2021 Posted January 21, 2021 1 hour ago, pogi said: 17 hours ago, bluebell said: A small well-armed group of extremists, supported by millions who are mildly supportive of their cause, could destabilize a polarized country fairly quickly. ..and fed fuel by the President of the United States...I agree. Trump should have thought of that before speaking. Pogi, did you listen to Trump's address that morning of Jan 6? I did and saw nothing that would be considered an incitement. The assault on the Capitol was instigated by "false-flag" operators (agent provocateurs, most likely antifas). They marched thru the area chanting they were going to invade. A few foolish trumpers tagged along but greater numbers tried to dissuade them. Congressional police force recognized the instigators and waved them in (after a token show of resistance). Remember how Biden stayed in his basement for most of his campaign? Not because of fear of Covid super-spreader but the stunning lack of enthusiasm at his events (mere handfuls about 10 or so would show up or they were mostly press people). This is why the democrats were so deeply fearful. They probably projected at most 10% attendance compared to Obama's inauguration. It was freaking them out. So they decided to "lock-down" the city by perpetuating this fraud and then blame it on so-called "white supremacists" (which is the disgusting demonization they keep repeating against decent middle class Americans and more particularly on Republicans and Conservatives for far too long (decades in fact). I think they had MORE to fear from their antifa agitators and pink-hat freak show. Regardless of what may have transpired, the fact that 25,000 national guardsmen were brought in is considered to be an appalling over-reaction. It is chilling how we have been turned into thuggish repressive banana regime. The sea of flags covering the mall is evocative of the Red Square propaganda military marches orchestrated in the old Soviet Union. Bluebell, you do not give enough credit to the American people. I believe the right wing violent extremists only make up a tiny fringe. Antifas and marxists (elements in bLM included) outnumber the right by a factor of thousands. Mainstream Americans would strongly resist such subversion. I believe the biggest problem we are having is the number of apathetic citizens who do NOT vote (which greatly outnumber legitimate voters). 3
pogi Posted January 21, 2021 Posted January 21, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, longview said: Pogi, did you listen to Trump's address that morning of Jan 6? I did and saw nothing that would be considered an incitement. Think about his claim of a stolen election (even after judicial and congressional dismissal of his claims) longview. Trump claims to have won the election and that it was stolen from him. In other words - we no longer live in a Republic of the people, by the people, and for the people longview. It is over. We are a fallen nation. It is no longer our Republic. If that doesn't put fuel and fire in every American to storm the capital, I don't know what would! The problem for Trump and the rioters is that very few actually believe it deep down (I wonder why?), or else there would have been a war. His words are fire that could incite war and did incite what happened. 3 hours ago, longview said: The assault on the Capitol was instigated by "false-flag" operators (agent provocateurs, most likely antifas). You haven't been following the arrests, have you? 3 hours ago, longview said: ...but greater numbers tried to dissuade them. Greater numbers of protesters tried to dissuade the rioters? CFR 3 hours ago, longview said: Congressional police force recognized the instigators and waved them in (after a token show of resistance). ??? Why in the world would the Congressional police force wave in "recognized" antifa instigators? 3 hours ago, longview said: Remember how Biden stayed in his basement for most of his campaign? Not because of fear of Covid super-spreader but the stunning lack of enthusiasm at his events (mere handfuls about 10 or so would show up or they were mostly press people). This is why the democrats were so deeply fearful. They probably projected at most 10% attendance compared to Obama's inauguration. It was freaking them out. You are funny. 3 hours ago, longview said: So they decided to "lock-down" the city by perpetuating this fraud and then blame it on so-called "white supremacists" (which is the disgusting demonization they keep repeating against decent middle class Americans and more particularly on Republicans and Conservatives for far too long (decades in fact). Wait, who was the one perpetuating fraud which instigated and incited this treasonous riot on congress? Again, you haven't been watching the arrests, have you? White supremacists up the wazoo. Edited January 21, 2021 by pogi 3
bluebell Posted January 21, 2021 Posted January 21, 2021 1 hour ago, pogi said: That is the irony of it all. There are zero claims (that I am aware of) of judicial and congressional conspiracy or corruption to overthrow the Republic and democracy as we know it. It was all functioning under Donald Trump's command. This was Donald Trump heading the government, and Donald Trump's appointed judges, and Donald Trump's supporters who all disputed, rejected, and even mocked his claims. To justify war because of a corrupt judicial and congressional system, there would have to be evidence of corruption on a systemic scale which included most of the republican representatives and Trump appointed judges. There is not even a claim of such a conspiracy, let alone evidence of such. It is not enough to claim that they have been duped. Without evidence of a conspiracy on the judicial and congressional level that has infiltrated both parties, then there is absolutely no justifiable claim that the system was not functioning as intended - and therefore the judgments should be sustained as lawful and constitutionally protected. If they were all duped and the system failed, then the problem would be the system itself! War would not be justified in defending a broken and failed system of government that doesn't work and can't be trusted. Revolution? Perhaps. Any attempt to overthrow a government without evidence or even a claim of conspiracy on a systemic scale, would be an attack on the constitutional system of government itself. Therein lies the irony of what they did. They were attacking the constitutional system of government that they claim that they were trying to protect. I agree with your assessment of their actions. 3
MiserereNobis Posted January 21, 2021 Posted January 21, 2021 21 hours ago, pogi said: Look at countries which are not democratic and see how well our religion and religious liberty is doing there. Yep, not a single LDS citizen of Vatican City (an absolute monarchy, mind you), nor will there ever be. But we do let you come and look at our cool art. 4
pogi Posted January 21, 2021 Posted January 21, 2021 16 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said: Yep, not a single LDS citizen of Vatican City (an absolute monarchy, mind you), nor will there ever be. But we do let you come and look at our cool art. (Sorry in advance, but I can't resist a perfectly set up zinger) They forbid our true religion, but welcome our money... ...I guess it is true what they say, you really can't serve both God and mammon! 2
Bernard Gui Posted January 21, 2021 Posted January 21, 2021 23 hours ago, The Nehor said: It is not too early to judge who planned and executed it. I would be more amenable to not generalizing this belief to a whole political faction if the side with cancer were more intent on treating the disease. Right.
MiserereNobis Posted January 21, 2021 Posted January 21, 2021 (edited) 39 minutes ago, pogi said: (Sorry in advance, but I can't resist a perfectly set up zinger) They forbid our true religion, but welcome our money... ...I guess it is true what they say, you really can't serve both God and mammon! Don't you guys have $100 billion stocked away somewhere And in case anyone gets the idea that a war could bring democracy to the Vatican City, need I remind you that you would be going up against our Swiss Guard? Attack at your own peril. Edited January 21, 2021 by MiserereNobis 4
Bernard Gui Posted January 21, 2021 Posted January 21, 2021 On 1/20/2021 at 1:01 PM, AtlanticMike said: These people were not heroes. In fact they're idiots. If you're going to storm the Capitol during a pandemic, a pandemic where wearing mask is acceptable, atleast wear a mask, jeez, maybe some sunglasses also, that way it's harder to be identified. A serious overthrow or occupation would of looked nothing like this. I cant stand antifa, but atleast they're smart enough to cover their faces. But it also reveals their hypocrisy and cowardice, being unwilling to stand openly for what they believe. 1
Bernard Gui Posted January 21, 2021 Posted January 21, 2021 (edited) On 1/20/2021 at 1:29 PM, Meadowchik said: Surely those who breached the Capitol do not enjoy the approval of most of their fellow partisans. They are a minority, I hope. They represent the first attempt I know of since last January of anyone attempting to overthrow the federal government. That is a profound distinction. “I hope?” Seriously? There have bern numerous attempts to overthrow the federal government Civil War and assassinations come immediately to mind. It would be quite an accomplishment for a few idiots to defeat 25,000 armed and trained National Guardsmen. The distinction is minuscule. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.kiro7.com/news/local/inauguration-day-protest-underway-seattle/23TWRX3TXZAZ7M2TFXUVQUHCXQ/%3foutputType=amp Edited January 21, 2021 by Bernard Gui
pogi Posted January 21, 2021 Posted January 21, 2021 23 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said: And in case anyone gets the idea that a war could bring democracy to the Vatican City, need I remind you that you would be going up against our Swiss Guard? Attack at your own peril. Sounds (and looks) like the makings of a great Monty Python skit. 1
Meadowchik Posted January 21, 2021 Author Posted January 21, 2021 10 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: “I hope?” Seriously? There have bern numerous attempts to overthrow the federal government Civil War and assassinations come immediately to mind. It would be quite an accomplishment for a few idiots to defeat 25,000 armed and trained National Guardsmen. The distinction is minuscule. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.kiro7.com/news/local/inauguration-day-protest-underway-seattle/23TWRX3TXZAZ7M2TFXUVQUHCXQ/%3foutputType=amp Yes, I hope. I am not willing to lump in all the January 6th DC protestors with fellow partisans who breached the Capitol. And I certainly was not referring to all of US history.
The Nehor Posted January 21, 2021 Posted January 21, 2021 1 hour ago, longview said: Pogi, did you listen to Trump's address that morning of Jan 6? I did and saw nothing that would be considered an incitement. The assault on the Capitol was instigated by "false-flag" operators (agent provocateurs, most likely antifas). They marched thru the area chanting they were going to invade. A few foolish trumpers tagged along but greater numbers tried to dissuade them. Congressional police force recognized the instigators and waved them in (after a token show of resistance). BS. I have spent many hours going over the footage. The agent provocateurs are a fantasy. It was definitely an incitement. And yes, I listened to the whole rally before the attack. It was deliberate provocation by virtually every speaker there. Trump reportedly watched the Capitol invasion with glee. Are you suggesting he is also Antifa? 1 hour ago, longview said: Remember how Biden stayed in his basement for most of his campaign? Not because of fear of Covid super-spreader but the stunning lack of enthusiasm at his events (mere handfuls about 10 or so would show up or they were mostly press people). This is why the democrats were so deeply fearful. They probably projected at most 10% attendance compared to Obama's inauguration. It was freaking them out. The Biden is in his basement thing has been disproven. He was out doing things. The reason no one showed up at his events was not lack of enthusiasm. It was Biden intentionally keeping attendance down because (get this) Biden actually actually cares if people catch Covid and die. It is much less likely that the White House will have more superspreader events now. The Left also doesn't view Biden as their tribal warlord so they don't need to stand in a crowd to care who wins. This isn't pro wrestling or a NASCAR event. It was an election. "They probably"? What garbage? More fanfic. I would point out that Biden got more total votes than any other Presidential candidate in US history. Yet you want to argue those voting for him are insipid little weaklings. Rally turnout doesn't indicate popular support. You better hope not. Did you see the pathetic turnout at Trump's farewell. That would make him quite a loser. 2 hours ago, longview said: So they decided to "lock-down" the city by perpetuating this fraud and then blame it on so-called "white supremacists" (which is the disgusting demonization they keep repeating against decent middle class Americans and more particularly on Republicans and Conservatives for far too long (decades in fact). I think they had MORE to fear from their antifa agitators and pink-hat freak show. Lies. Every intelligence agency in the US disagrees with you and everyone investigating. The FBI, known friend of hippie leftists, is making this all up? Conspiracy brainworms. 2 hours ago, longview said: Regardless of what may have transpired, the fact that 25,000 national guardsmen were brought in is considered to be an appalling over-reaction. It is chilling how we have been turned into thuggish repressive banana regime. The sea of flags covering the mall is evocative of the Red Square propaganda military marches orchestrated in the old Soviet Union. Wrong. A threat to a President-elect has to be countered. There were more flags as a symbol because people couldn't come due to Covid. Considering how much time Trump spent molesting the US flag don't talk to me about abusing the flag. 2 hours ago, longview said: Bluebell, you do not give enough credit to the American people. I believe the right wing violent extremists only make up a tiny fringe. Antifas and marxists (elements in bLM included) outnumber the right by a factor of thousands. Mainstream Americans would strongly resist such subversion. I believe the biggest problem we are having is the number of apathetic citizens who do NOT vote (which greatly outnumber legitimate voters). A tiny fringe? LOL! You live in a dream world. BLM is not a Marxist organization. Antifa is not a Marxist organization. You have Cold War brainworms. As to voter apathy voter turnout for this election was higher both by gross and per capita numbers. Normal US elections run between 50 and 60 percent. This one had over 66% turnout so the idea that apathetic citizens outnumber legitimate voters is a blatant lie. Don't come back with the ridiculous accusations of widespread voter fraud either. That was a farce. I actually endured two of those state legislature 'hearings' where the evidence was presented. The allegations were laughable and the technical experts claiming the voting machines were rigged were so pathetically ignorant that no one who has experience with anything involved in networking or internet connections could take them seriously. It later came out that their star witness who was supposedly an expert in information warfare fixed cars while in the military. I am not an expert but I have some amateur and more than once while he was explaining the "evidence" I found myself yelling at my tablet: "That is not a thing! That is not even a thing!" as he tried to explain how this fraud occurred. It was a joke which is why over 60 lawsuits over the election were shot down and many of them included the judge basically taking the lawyers out behind the woodshed. There were a few individual cases of voter fraud. Remember when the Lt. Governor of Texas offered a million dollars for anyone who found cases of voter fraud. The government of Pennsylvania found three cases of voter fraud involving three votes and they were discarded. The Lt. Governor of Pennsylvania reached out to the Lt. Governor of Texas and asked for the money to be given to his state. It seems the Lt. Governor of Texas was lying about his reward and it never came. Lt. Governor John Fetterman of Pennsylvania grows impatient: Stop undermining democracy with your conspiracy theories and lies. Thanks in advance. 4
Meadowchik Posted January 21, 2021 Author Posted January 21, 2021 13 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Stop undermining democracy with your conspiracy theories and lies. Thanks in advance. Thank you. It was a terrible irony to see Capitol breachers' hubris as they prayed in the Senate chambers that they had trespassed on.
JustAnAustralian Posted January 21, 2021 Posted January 21, 2021 42 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said: And in case anyone gets the idea that a war could bring democracy to the Vatican City, need I remind you that you would be going up against our Swiss Guard? Attack at your own peril. If all you have is 16 guards then all you'd need is for someone to lose a soccer match (or win a soccer match for that matter), and the revellers could overcome them 2
Calm Posted January 21, 2021 Posted January 21, 2021 6 minutes ago, JustAnAustralian said: If all you have is 16 guards then all you'd need is for someone to lose a soccer match (or win a soccer match for that matter), and the revellers could overcome them https://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/the-pope-has-a-small-but-deadly-army-of-elite-warriors-1733268646 1
Meadowchik Posted January 21, 2021 Author Posted January 21, 2021 6 minutes ago, JustAnAustralian said: If all you have is 16 guards then all you'd need is for someone to lose a soccer match (or win a soccer match for that matter), and the revellers could overcome them Good thing there's the Gendarmerie (130) and Swiss Guard (130+).
Meadowchik Posted January 21, 2021 Author Posted January 21, 2021 1 minute ago, Calm said: https://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/the-pope-has-a-small-but-deadly-army-of-elite-warriors-1733268646 Jinx! You owe me a Coke!
Bernard Gui Posted January 21, 2021 Posted January 21, 2021 (edited) 44 minutes ago, Meadowchik said: Yes, I hope. I am not willing to lump in all the January 6th DC protestors with fellow partisans who breached the Capitol. And I certainly was not referring to all of US history. We witness those attempts often here in Seattle and Portland as armed mobs attack state and federal government buildings and vehicles and private businesses, disrupt traffic, threaten private citizens, and assault and injure local, state, and federal agents. This has been an ongoing assault for a long time, not some one-off stupid attempt that would be squashed immediately. This is outrageous, but it has often been allowed with the tacit approval and even the cooperation of elected officials. Where is the outrage and hand/wringing? There is plenty of blame to go around for the situation we find ourselves in. Edited January 21, 2021 by Bernard Gui 2
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