The Hill Cumorah

[AtlanticMike]

My first trip out of state was on a bus to go see the Hill Cumorah. I have fond memories of that trip, it was a testimony builder for me because I loved and still to this day love the story of the 2000 stripling warriors. But for the past 2 days I've been studying about Cumorah and I actually feel a little embarrassed to admit that I have never even considered, ever, that Cumorah could of been somewhere else in the Americas besides New York. The amount of information, time and money that's spent on this subject is astounding to me. I've watched videos, read articles and listened to podcast and the more I investigate, the more I realize this subject, quite possibly, might not have a definitive answer like I thought it did for the first 45 years of my life. I'm a little bummed out this morning. So I was wondering if you would be willing to share your views on the whole cumorah conundrum that I cant seem to stop investigating. Where is it? Does it matter?

Edited January 12, 2021 by AtlanticMike

[Kenngo1969]

Wait ... there's a Las Vegas, New Mexico?   And here, all of this time, I thought that the one true Las Vegas was in Nevada!    Next thing you know, people will be saying crazy stuff, like that there's a North Las Vegas, Nevada!  What else haven't they been telling me?!   Is there an East Las Vegas NM that I don't know about?!  (Well ... yes, as it turns out there is ... or at least there used to be.) From Wikipedia:

Quote

Las Vegas is a city in and the county seat of San Miguel County, New Mexico, United States.^[5] Once two separate municipalities (one a city and the other a town), both were named Las Vegas—West Las Vegas ("Old Town") and East Las Vegas ("New Town"); they are separated by the Gallinas River and retain distinct characters and separate, rival school districts.

Do I have questions about certain things relative to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, like Book of Mormon geography?  Sure.  I don't know how anyone could have a halfway functioning brain and not have questions about such things.  However, while questions may be inevitable, doubt and faith are choices: https://greatgourdini.wordpress.com/2012/10/17/of-doubt-faith-questions-and-choices/.

None of this is relevant, of course, to my Oliver Cowdery, "did-I-not-speak-peace-to-your-mind" moment(s):

Quote

Doctrine and Covenants 6:22-23:

22 Verily, verily, I say unto you, if you desire a further witness, cast your mind upon the night that you cried unto me in your heart, that you might know concerning the truth of these things.

23 Did I not speak peace to your mind concerning the matter? What greater witness can you have than from God?

Nor is any of this relevant to my Moroni 10:3-5 moments:
 

Quote

 

3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

I have a testimony of the Book of Mormon, not of the geography of the Book of Mormon (as much as I might find it a fascinating subject about which to speculate).

 

For what it's worth, once, I had a fascinating (and illuminating, and edifying) Alma 26:8-12 moment with the Book of Mormon.  If you're looking for questions, you'll find them.  You'll find far more questions than answers.  If you're looking for reasons to doubt the testimony you have received, you'll find them.  Plenty of people will "help" you find them.  As for me and my house ... (See Joshua 24:15).

Edited January 12, 2021 by Kenngo1969

[AtlanticMike]

24 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Wait ... there's a Las Vegas, New Mexico?   And here, all of this time, I thought that the one true Las Vegas was in Nevada!    Next thing you know, people will be saying crazy stuff, like that there's a North Las Vegas, Nevada!  What else haven't they been telling me?!   Is there an East Las Vegas NM that I don't know about?!  (Well ... yes, as it turns out there is ... or at least there used to be.) From Wikipedia:

Do I have questions about certain things relative to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, like Book of Mormon geography?  Sure.  I don't know how anyone could have a halfway functioning brain and not have questions about such things.  However, while questions may be inevitable, doubt and faith are choices: https://greatgourdini.wordpress.com/2012/10/17/of-doubt-faith-questions-and-choices/.

None of this is relevant, of course, to my Oliver Cowdery, "did-I-not-speak-peace-to-your-mind" moment(s):

Nor is any of this relevant to my Moroni 10:3-5 moments:
 

For what it's worth, once, I had a fascinating (and illuminating, and edifying) Alma 26:8-12 moment with the Book of Mormon.  If you're looking for questions, you'll find them.  You'll find far more questions than answers.  If you're looking for reasons to doubt the testimony you have received, you'll find them.  Plenty of people will "help" you find them.  As for me and my house ... (See Joshua 24:15).

Well I guess my mom, sisters, brother and other relatives that have a testimony, and have believed most of their lives that the Hill Cumorah is in new York, never questioning that, they must work with a brain that functions less than 50%. Apparently, my brother in law, the one who has questioned church history for years, is the smartest one out of all of us, according to you. Seriously though,  I understand, "just have faith" because that's all I've ever had up till now. My problem at this moment is trying to have faith and understand facts, or someone's interpretation of what they see as facts. I understand everyone has an opinion. I understand not everything in the book of mormon is going to be written down exactly like it happened 1600 years ago, but the Hill Cumorah?? 

[AtlanticMike]

3 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

Well I guess my mom, sisters, brother and other relatives that have a testimony, and have believed most of their lives that the Hill Cumorah is in new York, never questioning that, they must work with a brain that functions less than 50%. Apparently, my brother in law, the one who has questioned church history for years, is the smartest one out of all of us, according to you. Seriously though,  I understand, "just have faith" because that's all I've ever had up till now. My problem at this moment is trying to have faith and understand facts, or someone's interpretation of what they see as facts. I understand everyone has an opinion. I understand not everything in the book of mormon is going to be written down exactly like it happened 1600 years ago, but the Hill Cumorah?? 

 

47 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Wait ... there's a Las Vegas, New Mexico?   And here, all of this time, I thought that the one true Las Vegas was in Nevada!    Next thing you know, people will be saying crazy stuff, like that there's a North Las Vegas, Nevada!  What else haven't they been telling me?!   Is there an East Las Vegas NM that I don't know about?!  (Well ... yes, as it turns out there is ... or at least there used to be.) From Wikipedia:

Do I have questions about certain things relative to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, like Book of Mormon geography?  Sure.  I don't know how anyone could have a halfway functioning brain and not have questions about such things.  However, while questions may be inevitable, doubt and faith are choices: https://greatgourdini.wordpress.com/2012/10/17/of-doubt-faith-questions-and-choices/.

None of this is relevant, of course, to my Oliver Cowdery, "did-I-not-speak-peace-to-your-mind" moment(s):

Nor is any of this relevant to my Moroni 10:3-5 moments:
 

For what it's worth, once, I had a fascinating (and illuminating, and edifying) Alma 26:8-12 moment with the Book of Mormon.  If you're looking for questions, you'll find them.  You'll find far more questions than answers.  If you're looking for reasons to doubt the testimony you have received, you'll find them.  Plenty of people will "help" you find them.  As for me and my house ... (See Joshua 24:15).

So let me get this straight, basically, your post says to just have faith, which I agree with. But if you dont question BOM Geography, your a nitwit, functioning at less than 50% brain capacity? I think you woke up on the wrong side of the bed.

[Raingirl]

11 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

 

So let me get this straight, basically, your post says to just have faith, which I agree with. But if you dont question BOM Geography, your a nitwit, functioning at less than 50% brain capacity? I think you woke up on the wrong side of the bed.

He never said anything of the sort. You’re just looking to be offended and argumentative.

By the way, there’s a difference between your and you’re. If you’re going to insult people, at least use the correct word. 
 

Kenngo gave great advice. It’s too bad you’re unwittingly listen. 

[AtlanticMike]

6 minutes ago, Raingirl said:

He never said anything of the sort. You’re just looking to be offended and argumentative.

By the way, there’s a difference between your and you’re. If you’re going to insult people, at least use the correct word. 
 

Kenngo gave great advice. It’s too bad you’re unwittingly listen. 

Is your whole purpose on this board   following the new people and cutting them down? Read through your older post, your angry inside. And I'm not trying to be argumentative but I did feel a little offended. I know lots of people who never even think about BOM Geography. Unless I'm reading what he wrote completely out of context, he's saying anyone whose spent their lives reading the BOM should have questions about where it took place, and if they dont, their basically dumb. I've gone my whole life never questioning the Hill cumorah up till now. I've spent the past few years ignoring my brother in law because he has only negative things to say about the church. Apologetics is all new to me, I've never had the time or energy to worry about it. I was happy with being happy. That's kinda of changed for me now, I'm trying to figure it out.

[AtlanticMike]

11 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

Is your whole purpose on this board   following the new people and cutting them down? Read through your older post, your angry inside. And I'm not trying to be argumentative but I did feel a little offended. I know lots of people who never even think about BOM Geography. Unless I'm reading what he wrote completely out of context, he's saying anyone whose spent their lives reading the BOM should have questions about where it took place, and if they dont, their basically dumb. I've gone my whole life never questioning the Hill cumorah up till now. I've spent the past few years ignoring my brother in law because he has only negative things to say about the church. Apologetics is all new to me, I've never had the time or energy to worry about it. I was happy with being happy. That's kinda of changed for me now, I'm trying to figure it out.

And by the way raingirl, I've admitted that I started out on this board in a bad mood. But if you read through my post, I've always apologized to people if I offend them. I usually try to be happy. I thank people all the time. The only time you show up is to cut me down, you've never actually tried to talk to me.

[CV75]

3 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

My first trip out of state was on a bus to go see the Hill Cumorah. I have fond memories of that trip, it was a testimony builder for me because I loved and still to this day love the story of the 2000 stripling warriors. But for the past 2 days I've been studying about Cumorah and I actually feel a little embarrassed to admit that I have never even considered, ever, that Cumorah could of been somewhere else in the Americas besides New York. The amount of information, time and money that's spent on this subject is astounding to me. I've watched videos, read articles and listened to podcast and the more I investigate, the more I realize this subject, quite possibly, might not have a definitive answer like I thought it did for the first 45 years of my life. I'm a little bummed out this morning. So I was wondering if you would be willing to share your views on the whole cumorah conundrum that I cant seem to stop investigating. Where is it? Does it matter?

It was 45 years ago that, as a new convert in college, a friend who was about to get baptized and I bought a couple of subs and hiked up the side of Hill Cumorah after midnight. With a malfunctioning flashlight. It was not as developed as it is today: I don't even recall the visitor's center being there until a couple of years later. Good times!  My first visit to the pageant was summer 1976.

Joseph Smith found the plates there, so it matters as far as that is concerned, no matter who called it what (when or where).

Do you have a specific question from the research you've done?

[teddyaware]

3 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

My first trip out of state was on a bus to go see the Hill Cumorah. I have fond memories of that trip, it was a testimony builder for me because I loved and still to this day love the story of the 2000 stripling warriors. But for the past 2 days I've been studying about Cumorah and I actually feel a little embarrassed to admit that I have never even considered, ever, that Cumorah could of been somewhere else in the Americas besides New York. The amount of information, time and money that's spent on this subject is astounding to me. I've watched videos, read articles and listened to podcast and the more I investigate, the more I realize this subject, quite possibly, might not have a definitive answer like I thought it did for the first 45 years of my life. I'm a little bummed out this morning. So I was wondering if you would be willing to share your views on the whole cumorah conundrum that I cant seem to stop investigating. Where is it? Does it matter?

While what I’m about to say won’t provide an answer to your question, it’s a very interesting and incontestable fact that should be factored into your quest nonetheless. Amid all the debate that rages about where the Book of Mormon peoples may have actually lived in the Americas, there is one particular fact that’s undeniable, at least for those who believe the Book of Mormon and the Joseph Smith’s History in the Pearl of Great Price are true; and that is it’s certain the one places in this hemisphere where we can place a real live Nephite is present-day New York State. Yes, a prophet of God named Moroni wandered around present-day New York State with the very heavy Book of Mormon plates, a large metal breastplate, and the Urim and Thummim in tow (amongst whatever else he carried). Finally, as we all know, Moroni dug a hole in the ground in the New York State hill the Church calls Comoran wherein he constructed a stone vault, and thereafter deposited the plates, the breastplate and the Urim and Thummim in said vault and covered it with a large stone. There is no other scriptural evidence that single Nephite was anywhere else in the Americas.

Edited January 12, 2021 by teddyaware

[rongo]

I believe that the Book of Mormon really happened in a relatively small area in south-central Mexico, and that the original Cumorah was there, and that Moroni took the abridged set of plates in his wanderings up to the Hill Cumorah in New York (where it needed to be for Joseph Smith to be led to). The thing that really won me over was Dr. John Clark's detailed explanation of travel distances, travel times, terrain, and elevational geography and river systems. The Book of Mormon actually contains a lot of information on these things (secondarily, as that wasn't it's purpose or focus), and if one takes the time to double-check Clark's claims and assumptions with the Book of Mormon text --- it's a very compelling case. It also shut the door (for me) on a North American setting (upper Midwest or New England). 

https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1829&context=msr

[AtlanticMike]

23 minutes ago, CV75 said:

It was 45 years ago that, as a new convert in college, a friend who was about to get baptized and I bought a couple of subs and hiked up the side of Hill Cumorah after midnight. With a malfunctioning flashlight. It was not as developed as it is today: I don't even recall the visitor's center being there until a couple of years later. Good times!  My first visit to the pageant was summer 1976.

Joseph Smith found the plates there, so it matters as far as that is concerned, no matter who called it what (when or where).

Do you have a specific question from the research you've done?

Thank you cv75 for asking. But tell you the truth, I don't know what to ask you. I'm 35 feet in the air on the peak of a roof watching my guys work as i type this and I'm on the verge of tears. I'm probably not in the correct frame of mind to be asking questions. I feel like everything I've ever believed in has gone up in smoke. I dont know what to think so I apologize for even starting this thread. 

[Raingirl]

1 hour ago, AtlanticMike said:

Is your whole purpose on this board   following the new people and cutting them down? Read through your older post, your angry inside. And I'm not trying to be argumentative but I did feel a little offended. I know lots of people who never even think about BOM Geography. Unless I'm reading what he wrote completely out of context, he's saying anyone whose spent their lives reading the BOM should have questions about where it took place, and if they dont, their basically dumb. I've gone my whole life never questioning the Hill cumorah up till now. I've spent the past few years ignoring my brother in law because he has only negative things to say about the church. Apologetics is all new to me, I've never had the time or energy to worry about it. I was happy with being happy. That's kinda of changed for me now, I'm trying to figure it out.

You’re, not your.  They’re, not their. 
 

If you’re going to insult people, at least use the correct words.  It might give you some credibility. 
 

There was nothing offensive in what Kenngo said. You’ve deliberately misinterpreted what he said. He gave excellent advice, but you don’t want advice, you want to whine and be offended. 
 

I’m not angry about anything. Your post isn’t worth that much emotion. No post on a discussion board is. You’re flattering yourself if you think I’m “following” you. 

[Kevin Christensen]

While one possible response to discovering things are not quite as one first imagined is disillusion, another response can be enlightenment, mind-expansion.   Alma 32 compares the word to a seed, and the things that happen with the seed, the emergence of roots, stems, leaves, branches, flowers, buds, and eventually fruit, is not, in that chapter, accompanied by complaints, that, "Hey!  This no longer looks exactly what I started with!"  It can be something to celebrate.   One useful article, of many, on the topic of Cumorah in LDS history, and Cumorah in the text of the Book of Mormon is Sidney Sperry's republished in The Journal of Book of Mormon Studies.   

https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/jbms/vol4/iss1/30/

One of the things I still like about this essay is his positive, inquiring tone.  I also remember my experience on reading Sorenson's Ancient American Setting for the Book of Mormon in 1985.  Yes, the picture was different than I had previously imagined, but that difference was magnitides better, more vivid, detailed, accounting and explaining for so much more in the Book of Mormon that I had thought I had known well.  And things have continued to get better.  I could be disillusioned, I suppose.  But what I personally experience is expansion of my mind, enlightment of my soul, and as I contemplate all I have learned, and continue to learn, is full of promise and increases my faith and desire to know more.

I think back on when I read John Welch's New Era article on Chiasmus in the Book of Mormon.  This was a prominent and important feature that had been overlooked for 140 years.  Should I have been disillusioned with those who had not noticed, had not taken the time to learn the Hebrew poetry forms, and therefore, could not have recognized was there no matter how many times they read familiar passages?   D&C 1 formally sets out the proper expectations of LDS leaders.

6 Behold, this is mine authority, and the authority of my servants,...

24 Behold, I am God and have spoken it; these commandments are of me, and were given unto my servants in their weakness, after the manner of their language, that they might come to understanding.

25 And inasmuch as they erred it might be made known;

26 And inasmuch as they sought wisdom they might be instructed;

27 And inasmuch as they sinned they might be chastened, that they might repent;

28 And inasmuch as they were humble they might be made strong, and blessed from on high, and receive knowledge from time to time.

 

With that expectation in place, I have a much greater likelyhood of experiencing enlightenment rather than disillusion upon encounting new knowledge.   Personally, this kind of experience, expansion of the mind on learning new things, and gaining enlightening insights, has been one of the chief foundations of my faith and testimony.  I have published around 40 essays on LDS topics, and they have all come about in response to the experience of enlightenment on my part.

I find it enlightening, in considering John Sorenson's The Geography of Book of Mormon Events: A Sourcebook, to learn that the first serious attempt to carefully gather and survey and interpret all of the Book of Mormon passages describing the New World geography did not appear until 1937.   What does that imply about any opinions offered before that time?  Think about these passages in 3 Nephi 15.

18 And now, because of stiffneckedness and unbelief they understood not my word; therefore I was commanded to say no more of the Father concerning this thing unto them.

...

22 And they understood me not, for they supposed it had been the Gentiles; for they understood not that the Gentiles should be converted through their preaching.

23 And they understood me not that I said they shall hear my voice; and they understood me not that the Gentiles should not at any time hear my voice—that I should not manifest myself unto them save it were by the Holy Ghost.

If it is possible for the Old World disciples to suppose they understood something, and therefore did not ask further, why should it be disturbing to find out that our Modern Day disciples, on occasion, suppose we understand, and don't inquire, and therefore have room to either be disillusioned, or enlightened by further light and knowledge?

One of the things that defines Abraham's character is his determination to "possess greater knowledge" (Abraham 1:2).  Till we all come to perfect knowledge, we all have ignorance to repent of.   Learning is the most pleasurable way to repent.  All we have to do is keep our eyes open, give things time, and re-examine our own assumptions now and then.  The alternative is to not bother to learn, to insist on final answers to everything right now, and to never re-examine our own assumptions, that is, never check our own eye for beams that we might then see clearly.

For a sample, and an invitation to enlightenment on the Book of Mormon, try this:

https://www.fairmormon.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/2008-Larry-Poulsen.pdf

Read it carefully, and then consider the questions in Alma 32.  Does this not enlighten your mind?  Does this not enlarge your soul?  Is this not real?

Best,

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA 

 

 

Edited January 12, 2021 by Kevin Christensen

[MrShorty]

In my opinion, the correct identity of the Hill Cumorah (and other topics pertaining to Book of Mormon geography), whether there was only one such hill or multiple hills, etc. are lumped into the class of topics where Church leaders, teachers, and members have spoken with more certainty than they should have. In this class, I am also thinking of Creationism vs. evolutionism (Joseph Fielding Smith was convinced that there was no way to square evolution with the gospel and Elder McConkie believe it to be a deadly heresy), Elder Talmage's assertion that Christ was born on Apr. 6th, and other teachings. It's been a bit of an uncomfortable place to consider that leaders and teachers in the Church make mistakes about the nature of revelation (such as stating greater certainty than is warranted), but I find that it is a useful idea for me to grapple with.

My thought, and probably worth about what you paid for it.

[CV75]

52 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

Thank you cv75 for asking. But tell you the truth, I don't know what to ask you. I'm 35 feet in the air on the peak of a roof watching my guys work as i type this and I'm on the verge of tears. I'm probably not in the correct frame of mind to be asking questions. I feel like everything I've ever believed in has gone up in smoke. I dont know what to think so I apologize for even starting this thread. 

I hope there is someone you can speak with in-person to help you settle the emotional aspects of this. You are smart to wait until you are in a better frame of mind before making sense of new facts, opinions and beliefs that come your way. Hang in there!

[AtlanticMike]

18 minutes ago, Raingirl said:

You’re, not your.  They’re, not their. 
 

If you’re going to insult people, at least use the correct words.  It might give you some credibility. 
 

There was nothing offensive in what Kenngo said. You’ve deliberately misinterpreted what he said. He gave excellent advice, but you don’t want advice, you want to whine and be offended. 
 

I’m not angry about anything. Your post isn’t worth that much emotion. No post on a discussion board is. You’re flattering yourself if you think I’m “following” you. 

Funny thing is raingirl, last week,  I used they exact same grammar I use on here, to sign 3 roofing contracts that total $42,000. Also, my crappy grammar hasnt affected my almost perfect credit which I used to purchase a $86,000 dump truck 2 months ago. I live a happy life with my poor grammar,  I guess if I wanted to sit at a desk and write for a living I would put more time in learning correct grammar. But I dont sit at a desk, ever, I'd rather be drug across hot coals with no clothes on and have all my butt hair singed off then have to sit at a desk. But if you think its important for a roofer to have perfect grammar, then keep thinking that if it makes you happy. Which I hope it makes you happy because something needs to.

[katherine the great]

12 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

But if you think its important for a roofer to have perfect grammar, then keep thinking that if it makes you happy. Which I hope it makes you happy because something needs to.

There is no relationship between spelling and intelligence. Those who think there is are just morons (something that is also untrue). Everyone seems to be in a bad mood today. 🤷‍♀️  I hope you are able to find answers to your questions. Hang in there Mike!

[Bob Crockett]

32 minutes ago, katherine the great said:

There is no relationship between spelling and intelligence. 

???

I guess you may be correct if you don't equate intelligence with being civilized.  There are probably a lot of natives in Brazil who are highly intelligent who can't spell. 

As to whether the Hill Cumorah is the same as the place where the Nephites fought their last battle, the Church through the FIrst Presidency spoke definitively on the subject when it purchased the Hill Cumorah in the 1920s.  

Edited January 12, 2021 by Bob Crockett

[Rain]

People sometimes get or at least act uncomfortable and then lash out a little bit when people start to question.  I suggest ignoring when they do that and concentrate on those who try to help.

If your mind won't let you do that there is feature on this board that will let you "ignore" specific people. Then when you are in a better frame of mind you can stop ignoring them. 

It will put you in a much better place if you concentrate on other posts that give you ideas that may help you.

[AtlanticMike]

6 minutes ago, Rain said:

People sometimes get or at least act uncomfortable and then lash out a little bit when people start to question.  I suggest ignoring when they do that and concentrate on those who try to help.

If your mind won't let you do that there is feature on this board that will let you "ignore" specific people. Then when you are in a better frame of mind you can stop ignoring them. 

It will put you in a much better place if you concentrate on other posts that give you ideas that may help you.

Thank you so much rain. I have an honest question, not trying to be a jerk by asking this and please dont answer if your uncomfortable. Is this basically an echo chamber? Would I better off asking questions somewhere else?

[Nemesis]

Everyone be nice.  
 

Nemesis 

[smac97]

13 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

Thank you so much rain. I have an honest question, not trying to be a jerk by asking this and please dont answer if your uncomfortable. Is this basically an echo chamber? Would I better off asking questions somewhere else?

No, this is not an echo chamber.  Plenty of diverse opinions here.

Thanks,

-Smac

[filovirus]

Hang in there.

My personal opinion on the matter. The original hill Cumorah is somewhere in southern Mexico. It is near this hill that the final battle in the BOM took place. The Nephite religion was destroyed at this time. Moroni, the only one who still believed in the Nephite religion (aka Gospel of Jesus Christ) was charged with moving the abridged version of the BOM from the original Hill Cumorah to a new location. He left the majority of the manuscripts that Mormon used in Mexico Hill Cumorah. Eventually Moroni found himself in upstate New York and buried the BOM. In respect to the original Hill Cumorah, he also named this location Hill Cumorah.

[Rain]

16 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

Thank you so much rain. I have an honest question, not trying to be a jerk by asking this and please dont answer if your uncomfortable. Is this basically an echo chamber? Would I better off asking questions somewhere else?

It's a good question.  It isn't just an echo chamber here.  There are people that really know their stuff and I learn a lot from them.  The intelligence and knowledge here is great and sometimes I can't keep up, but I ask questions here because if people don't know the answers often they can point to those who do.

But it isn't all a learning place.  There are people who are argumentative, who don't listen with their heart or are who are cynical etc..  

So you have to decide for yourself.  Can you deal with those who criticize you or don't listen to your heart/true questions while getting answers?  It might be a good place then.  Or does the negative affect you more than the positive?  If that is the case then it would be good to find answers from the faithful elsewhere.  Sometimes it might be worth it it to ask sources for faithful study on specific topics verses asking questions here depending on how you are feeling.  That way you can get the directions to it here, but digest it without the criticism/bickering.

So evaluate what would be helpful to you and let go of what isn't.  🙂

Edited January 12, 2021 by Rain

[smac97]

5 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

My first trip out of state was on a bus to go see the Hill Cumorah. I have fond memories of that trip, it was a testimony builder for me because I loved and still to this day love the story of the 2000 stripling warriors. But for the past 2 days I've been studying about Cumorah and I actually feel a little embarrassed to admit that I have never even considered, ever, that Cumorah could of been somewhere else in the Americas besides New York. The amount of information, time and money that's spent on this subject is astounding to me. I've watched videos, read articles and listened to podcast and the more I investigate, the more I realize this subject, quite possibly, might not have a definitive answer like I thought it did for the first 45 years of my life. I'm a little bummed out this morning. So I was wondering if you would be willing to share your views on the whole cumorah conundrum that I cant seem to stop investigating. Where is it? Does it matter?

A few thoughts:

1. Controversies about the location of the "Hill Cumorah" have a lot more to do with assumptions and lore about the Book of Mormon, and quite a bit less to do with the text of the Book of Mormon, and about prophetic utterances pertaining to it.

2. In the absence of scriptural/prophetic/revelatory guidance on the location of the Hill Cumorah, we are left to research and study and come up with plausible explanations.

3. As Jeff Lindsay noted: 

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How did many Latter-day Saints come to the erroneous belief the Book of Mormon provides broad information about North and South America? The Book of Mormon does talk about two main groups of people during Nephite times (after ca. 500 B.C.), one near to and later north of a "narrow neck of land" and one group to the south. Many have assumed that the narrow neck of land was the isthmus of Panama and that the peoples to the north were spread from Panama to Canada, and the southern region was South America, thus making the scope of the book to be continental. This misconception was partially due to the incorrect assumption that the hill in the state of New York where Joseph Smith retrieved the plates was the same as the Hill Cumorah, the location of the tragic ending of the Book of Mormon. Joseph never said that to be the case, and a thorough consideration of the text readily rules out that possibility. Many LDS still assume that the Hill Cumorah of the Book of Mormon was in New York, but it just can't be.

He goes on to provide some links that you may find helpful:

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• An Ancient American Setting for the Book of Mormon by John Sorenson
• "Were There Two Cumorahs?" by Sidney B. Sperry, Journal of Book of Mormon Studies, vol. 4, no. 1, 1995, pp. 260-268.
• "This Idea: The 'This Land' Series and the U.S.-Centric Reading of the Book of Mormon" by Brant Gardner (FARMS Review of Books, 2008), which contains fascinating information about the fraudulent Michigan relics used by some to support a setting for the Book of Mormon in the United States.
• "Basic Methodological Problems with the Anti-Mormon Approach to the Geography and Archaeology of the Book of Mormon" by William J. Hamblin, Journal of Book of Mormon Studies, vol. 2, no. 1, 1993, pp. 161-97.
• "Archaeology and Cumorah Questions" (PDF) by John E. Clark, Journal of Book of Mormon Studies, vol. 13, no. 1, 2004, pp. 144-51.
• "Limited Geography and the Book of Mormon: Historical Antecedents and Early Interpretations" by Matthew Roper, FARMS Review, vol. 16, no. 2, 2004, pp. 225-76.

He also quotes John Clark:

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In summary, the archaeology of New York is persuasive evidence that Book of Mormon peoples did not live in that region. By implication, the Cumorah of the golden plates is not the Cumorah of the final battles. These conclusions follow from a few basic points and assumptions. First, I presume that the archaeology of New York State, as currently published (2004), is a fair representation and adequate sample of what is there, and particularly that the evidence for some periods has not been systematically destroyed. Second, I presume that the evidence published for the various regions and time periods is accurate--that is, that the majority of archaeologists working in this region are competent and academically honest in terms of their archaeology. Third, I assume that additional research and discoveries will not significantly alter current understandings of the times or places of prehistoric occupation nor of the cultural practices involved; rather, such data will lead to minor adjustments to some of the details of prehistory. Fourth, the archaeological record lacks evidence for cities, sedentism, corn agriculture, fortifications, and dense populations during Archaic, Early Woodland, and Middle Woodland times. In accord with these general observations about New York and Pennsylvania, we come to our principal object--the Hill Cumorah. Archaeologically speaking, it is a clean hill. No artifacts, no walls, no trenches, no arrowheads. The area immediately surrounding the hill is similarly clean. Pre-Columbian people did not settle or build here. This is not the place of Mormon's last stand. We must look elsewhere for that hill.11 The Palmyra hill is still a sacred place and was the repository of the golden plates and other relics placed there by Moroni. How Moroni made his way to this place and constructed his time capsule of artifacts is a historic adventure for another time.

Jeff also provides more information and resources here.

FAIR also has quite a bit of information on this subject: Archaeology and the Hill Cumorah

4. The Church has long sought to emphasize the "doctrine, or gospel truths that are essential for our salvation."  Faith, repentance, baptism (and other saving ordinances).  Whether or not the drumlin in New York State is the "Hill Cumorah" described in the text of the Book of Mormon is not, in my view, an issue that is "essential for our salvation."

5. One fellow summed things up well here:

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It is important to keep in mind a few things:
* The church has no official position on the location of the Book of Mormon lands
* Our testimonies of the Book of Mormon need to come through spiritual conversion
* Studying Book of Mormon lands is not essential for our salvation but can be an interesting hobby- and faith promoting if done with the right spirit.
* There are many who feel strongly about different models- we should never be contentious

Thanks,

-Smac