Christmas, Consumerism, and Traditions

[Hamba Tuhan]

11 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

I know this is not a new idea, obviously, but I was hoping to have a conversation on how we can "steal" Christmas back from consumerism.

Like many, this has been a goal of mine for many years. I finally just made the decision to be a complete freak and do it as best I can. I think it helps that I'm a migrant, so people already expect me to be weird and not follow cultural conventions.

So I've completely dispensed with gift-giving at Chrismastime. I love giving people gifts, but now I do it whenever the opportunity arises. If I see something small in April or August that I know someone will cherish, I buy it and give it to them. If people give me Christmas gifts -- and I find that happens less frequently every year -- I sincerely thank them and feel zero social obligation to return the favour.

Instead of trying to cram a year's worth of celebrating into one month, I now have people in my home throughout the year to eat good food that I've cooked, play cards, etc.

I listen to Christmas music whenever I feel like it. Some years this means that I listen to it all year long. This year I started at the beginning of September. (I'm not sure when I stopped ...) I put my Christmas tree up whenever I feel like it and take it down when I feel like it. Many times I have intentionally left the tree and my nativity sets up until Easter. People certainly make comments about that! I just smile and enjoy the magical feeling of Christmas. It's my home.

As an act of 'holy envy', I've borrowed the notion of Christmas being twelve days long from my Catholic friends, and I now take leave until Epiphany most years. That would also be the earliest I would pack away anything Christmas related.

I packed away most Christmas things in mid-January this year, but I felt like I shouldn't pack it all away, so I left the porcelain Christmas angel that has lights on the inside on the shelf between my lounge room and kitchen all year. I think he'll be staying all next year too. And I switch him on whenever I feel like it. Again, it's my home.

I live in a nation where carolling door-to-door is unheard-of, but I'm the weird migrant, so about twelve years ago, I started an annual tradition of inviting people to go carolling with me. At first people thought it was weird. Now they all ask when it's happening. (Sadly, this year we just couldn't make it happen within COVID guidelines, but that will just make it sweeter next year.)

Our ward actually holds a Christmas Day service each year and has done so since before my first Christmas here in 2003. I love it! It's simple and informal, with people invited to come dressed in a way that suits their families. (Sometimes children are still in pyjamas.) The bishopric put me in charge again this year. We never know who will attend, so I just have scriptures and other readings printed out and a list of carols that we'll be singing, and the readings get handed out as people come in. We also usually have one or two testimonies. Some years we have 15 people, and some years we have 50. We always throw the doors to the chapel wide open and have the organ (or a recording) blaring, and about half the time we have people walk in off the street, looking for that 'something more'. It certainly takes a bit of work since I always try to have a script that fits the year, but I wouldn't skip this for anything. The day feels completely different when it starts with prayers and singing.

Since there are often no or few presents under my tree, the focus of the day has to turn elsewhere. I always ask around the ward and my circle of friends to find out who's alone. This year (so far!) I have an international student who arrived before the borders closed and a migrant worker whose wife and daughter are back in his home country both coming around for Christmas lunch. Last year it was a non-member mate and an elderly migrant from Church. After eating, I typically spend the rest of the day visiting people. This might be a family who I know has had a hard year or someone in hospital or an aged care home.

In a normal year, we might also sing carols in such places. We also always have a service project at church. This year we collected personal hygiene supplies for women and children fleeing domestic violence.

Our ward Christmas party was this past Saturday. We met up on the peninsula and had a really great time just socialising. (It was far too cold for me to be in the water, but a number of people did use the aqua park, which the ward paid for.) The ward supplied fried chicken, cans of soft drink, and juice boxes. The rest of us brought side dishes and sweets. Many families brought non-member or less-active friends. I'm personally thrilled! I invited a less-active ward member and his Muslim daughter, and they not only came but also came to church yesterday. And she's planning to attend the Young Women activity tomorrow. Good stuff!

I honestly don't worry about the economic impact of my non-spending because if all the economy had was people like me, we'd be in a massive depression all year long.

Anyway, that's enough from me. I'm still working at this, but I feel like I keep getting better at it.

Quote

We are in the octave before Christmas, so this hymn, based on the O Antiphons, is most appropriate ...

One of my top faves since I first heard it sung in the first ward I served in as a full-time missionary!

Edited December 21, 2020 by Hamba Tuhan

[Scott Lloyd]

9 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

That's a great point, Scott (and nice to see you -- I've noticed you haven't been posting much lately and I'm sorry that your thread got shut down because of politics). It probably, like most spiritual things, has to do with our heart. If we approach the efficiency with the idea we can use the saved time to do something spiritual -- pray, read, help someone out -- then I think it's ok. Maybe for me it's just too easy to click the purchase button and then that's that. Something for me to think about.

Nice to “see” you again as well. You remain one of my favorite posters on this forum. 
 

Regarding my thread having been shut down, I can only lament wistfully that, despite my earnest effort at self-restraint, my heartfelt request that the no-politics rule be observed (and my timely reporting to the moderation team of blatant violation) so as to preclude the thread’s having to be shut down, in the end, my efforts came to naught. That said, I think I was able to halt it for a time, if only for two or three hours, before the (to me unexpected) shutdown occurred. 
 

I appreciate your thoughtful remark. 

Edited December 21, 2020 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Like many, this has been a goal of mine for many years. I finally just made the decision to be a complete freak and do it as best I can. I think it helps that I'm a migrant, so people already expect me to be weird and not follow cultural conventions.

So I've completely dispensed with gift-giving at Chrismastime. I love giving people gifts, but now I do it whenever the opportunity arises. If I see something small in April or August that I know someone will cherish, I buy it and give it to them. If people give me Christmas gifts -- and I find that happens less frequently every year -- I sincerely thank them and feel zero social obligation to return the favour.

Instead of trying to cram a year's worth of celebrating into one month, I now have people in my home throughout the year to eat good food that I've cooked, play cards, etc.

I listen to Christmas music whenever I feel like it. Some years this means that I listen to it all year long. This year I started at the beginning of September. (I'm not sure when I stopped ...) I put my Christmas tree up whenever I feel like it and take it down when I feel like it. Many times I have intentionally left the tree and my nativity sets up until Easter. People certainly make comments about that! I just smile and enjoy the magical feeling of Christmas. It's my home.

As an act of 'holy envy', I've borrowed the notion of Christmas being twelve days long from my Catholic friends, and I now take leave until Epiphany most years. That would also be the earliest I would pack away anything Christmas related.

I packed away most Christmas things in mid-January this year, but I felt like I shouldn't pack it all away, so I left the porcelain Christmas angel that has lights on the inside on the shelf between my lounge room and kitchen all year. I think he'll be staying all next year too. And I switch him on whenever I feel like it. Again, it's my home.

I live in a nation where carolling door-to-door is unheard-of, but I'm the weird migrant, so about twelve years ago, I started an annual tradition of inviting people to go carolling with me. At first people thought it was weird. Now they all ask when it's happening. (Sadly, this year we just couldn't make it happen within COVID guidelines, but that will just make it sweeter next year.)

Our ward actually holds a Christmas Day service each year and has done so since before my first Christmas here in 2003. I love it! It's simple and informal, with people invited to come dressed in a way that suits their families. (Sometimes children are still in pyjamas.) The bishopric put me in charge again this year. We never know who will attend, so I just have scriptures and other readings printed out and a list of carols that we'll be singing, and the readings get handed out as people come in. We also usually have one or two testimonies. Some years we have 15 people, and some years we have 50. We always throw the doors to the chapel wide open and have the organ (or a recording) blaring, and about half the time we have people walk in off the street, looking for that 'something more'. It certainly takes a bit of work since I always try to have a script that fits the year, but I wouldn't skip this for anything. The day feels completely different when it starts with prayers and singing.

Since there are often no or few presents under my tree, the focus of the day has to turn elsewhere. I always ask around the ward and my circle of friends to find out who's alone. This year (so far!) I have an international student who arrived before the borders closed and a migrant worker whose wife and daughter are back in his home country both coming around for Christmas lunch. Last year it was a non-member mate and an elderly migrant from Church. After eating, I typically spend the rest of the day visiting people. This might be a family who I know has had a hard year or someone in hospital or an aged care home.

In a normal year, we might also sing carols in such places. We also always have a service project at church. This year we collected personal hygiene supplies for women and children fleeing domestic violence.

Our ward Christmas party was this past Saturday. We met up on the peninsula and had a really great time just socialising. (It was far too cold for me to be in the water, but a number of people did use the aqua park, which the ward paid for.) The ward supplied fried chicken, cans of soft drink, and juice boxes. The rest of us brought side dishes and sweets. Many families brought non-member or less-active friends. I'm personally thrilled! I invited a less-active ward member and his Muslim daughter, and they not only came but also came to church yesterday. And she's planning to attend the Young Women activity tomorrow. Good stuff!

I honestly don't worry about the economic impact of my non-spending because if all the economy had was people like me, we'd be in a massive depression all year long.

Anyway, that's enough from me. I'm still working at this, but I feel like I keep getting better at it.

One of my top faves since I first heard it sung in the first ward I served in as a full-time missionary!

I love your idea of a Christmas Day service, and an informal one at that. It sounds very enjoyable and uplifting. 

I think, though, that attendance has to remain purely optional and that has to be clearly understood by all invitees. Probably just a personal quirk with me, but I want Christmas Day to be reserved as a relatively quiet and stress-free time for our immediate family to enjoy one another. Thus, I tend to get annoyed when I have to leave the house on that day to attend someone’s planned get-together, though I’m onboard with parties and dinners and, of course, Sabbath day worship at other times during the season. 

Edited December 21, 2020 by Scott Lloyd

[Hamba Tuhan]

11 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I love your idea of a Christmas Day service, and an informal one at that. It sounds very enjoyable and uplifting. 

I think, though, that attendance has to remain purely optional and that has to be clearly understood by all invitees.

That is absolutely the case, hence our attendance numbers. Typically our bishops haven't attended, though one always did, including before he was called.

[Scott Lloyd]

27 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

That is absolutely the case, hence our attendance numbers. Typically our bishops haven't attended, though one always did, including before he was called.

It would have greater appeal for me if I were single or part of a couple without children or whose children had grown and moved out of the house. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

39 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

It would have greater appeal for me if I were single or part of a couple without children or whose children had grown and moved out of the house. 

OK.

[poptart]

12 hours ago, OGHoosier said:

You're speaking my language. I have a rather eccentric British friend who told me to read Ride The Tiger. I haven't gotten around to it but I think he now fantasized about "riding the tiger" after everything goes to heck. I can't imagine God is super satisfied with the state of affairs in this place. As for traditionalism, I didn't even know places like St. Mary's existed, so that's kind of interesting. Everybody talks about polarization, the urban/rural divide, etc, but I think we're struggling to grasp the true meaning of these abstracts on our daily lives. We're essentially balkanizing as a people and the old structures that bound us all together have frayed or been replaced by tailor-made optimized consumables. We can basically choose our communities now and curate those whom we encounter through social media. The transient job market, where everybody moves, unseats people from a geographical and communal identity. I've lived in my little Indiana town for longer than anywhere else at this point and this place means things to me, but I'll have to pack up and leave soon because that's just how the market is. I'd say that all these costs were just the price for our near-Elysian material prosperity, but even then I served my mission in urban LA and that prosperity doesn't get to everyone. As a society we're clearly in some form of transition, we're imbalanced, and I'm worried about what must inevitably follow. 

Also, for what it's worth, I've always appreciated that the Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away. God's not some kind of vending-machine Pollyanna and I'm appreciative. 

If you're not too familiar with esoteric/hermetic things I'd suggest you check out Evola's The Mystery of the Grail and maybe The Hermetic Tradition first.  People who I know who've really appreciated ride the tiger tend to know a lot of history, religion (both history and rites), politics, sociology etc.  Reason why things like Hermeticism are a niche thing here, it's hard work and most people are lazy.  This year I made the best of covid and set out to get to work on myself and fix my own problems.  Life is what it is but in the end no one else will solve your problems for you.  It's sad, so many people would rather lose it all, become drug addicts and sit on a street corner with their hand out then do even a bit of work to fix the problems that more often than not they brought on themselves. 

Communities like that do exist, they're just kinda low key.  My understanding is whenever a new LDS temple goes up the surrounding real estate sells like hotcakes, that's smart.  The rest of Christiandom here stateside has a lot to learn from the LDS church.  While so many of them chose to embrace mainstream materialism and greed you guys kept your focus on what matters, family and community.  While the rest of WASP America has torn apart what was their religious, fraternal and secular support structures, you guys knew better.  Can't help but think one reason why is you guys did have it really bad in the past and teach your kids LDS history.  Anyway, there are a few schismatic orgs like CMRI that have a presence here.  There's St Michal's in Spokane plus the presence they have in Idaho.  They tend to be low key.  While they don't hide they don't make their presence known as much, at least that's been my experience.  It's interesting how orgs like that approach social media.  While many parishes to have a presence the smarter people (I think) will do things like make burner accounts to keep up to date and that's it.  From what i've seen from some of the Orthodox, they more or less operate the same way, especially since many of their members have E.European ties and are leery of US politics and culture.  Alaska has a neat Orthodox Community, St. Johns.  Alaska has some near Orthodox communities, neat things period. 

I have a feeling in the future when most of us are gone it's going to be these branches of Christianity that cause a resurgence of the faith.  My icon is a variant of the Maltese cross the order of St. Lazarus uses.  I know a few people in it, they do a ton of good work as well as help maintain the leper colony in Molokai so naturally they get brownie points from me.  Think the Bishop from the arch diocese of HI may have joined, at least he was thinking about it before covid messed everything up.  Anyway, like the LDS church it's the traditional branches of the Christian religion that have the structure and still have the guts to tell the world there is right from wrong.  Guess we'll see how it plays out, hoping i'm right and they will bring order back to this world eventually.

 

 

Edited December 21, 2020 by poptart

[bluebell]

I was actually thinking the other day that ordering presents online helps me to put less of a consumerism focus on Christmas, because I can have that aspect of the holiday over and done with so quickly (in a matter of a couple of hours) without all of the negative aspects like searching stores, driving all over town, and being focused on finding and purchasing gifts for weeks on end.  

[Ahab]

On 12/20/2020 at 10:10 AM, MiserereNobis said:

What are ways that we can put Christ in the forefront of our Christmas traditions and celebrations? Should we make gift-giving, a noble practice, less dominant? How could we make gift-giving more Christian?

I like that your pope suggested we put Christ in the forefront of our Christmas traditions, rather than totally get rid of our Christmas traditions.  I and my family do that by thinking more about Christ than Santa Claus while still thinking about Santa Claus as a nice guy who in a lot of ways is a lot like Christ.

And when thinking about gift-giving I think of Mosiah's words about how when we serve each other we are only in the service of God.  Which square with Christ's words about how we should love others as much as we love our own selves while loving our Father in heaven the most.  And how the best gifts we give each other are the ones which money can't buy.

[MiserereNobis]

17 hours ago, rchorse said:

I haven't heard an official reason either, but I suspect it's in large part due to the fact that those who would have to plan and execute such a service are volunteers with families of their own. It would be asking a lot of the bishopric and others involved to forgo time with their families on Christmas to plan a special meeting. Having been in those shoes, I doubt I could have handled anything fancier that a typical "Christmas Program" the Sunday before Christmas.

That makes sense. The priests don't have to plan the Mass (as in what to do) because it is already there, and being a priest is their full-time job. However, I want to point out that everyone else involved is volunteering their time, too (altar boys, choir, chant schola, etc.). When I was in the chant schola and choir, we'd practice an hour before and an hour after Mass for the upcoming Masses. I didn't mind at all -- I love singing, I love chant, and we had an awesome director. For midnight Mass, we'd sing about an hour of prelude music (starting around 11:00) as families arrived.

As a side note, I really like churches with a true choir loft, above and behind. As a congregant, it was nice not seeing the choir, just hearing the angelic music. As part of the choir, I liked people not looking at me, but I got to look at them, ha. If I ever go to a new mass, I'm always annoyed by the cheesy folk Christian music with the "band" next to the altar.

[MiserereNobis]

2 hours ago, poptart said:

Anyway, there are a few schismatic orgs like CMRI that have a presence here.

Don't hang out with the schismatics, especially since you've got that FSSP chapel nearby  

Well, I mean hang out them as friends for sure, but if you're going to go to a traditional Latin mass, you might as well go to one that cares as much about the liturgy and doctrine as CMRI does but is still in full communion with the Pope.

[MiserereNobis]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

I was actually thinking the other day that ordering presents online helps me to put less of a consumerism focus on Christmas, because I can have that aspect of the holiday over and done with so quickly (in a matter of a couple of hours) without all of the negative aspects like searching stores, driving all over town, and being focused on finding and purchasing gifts for weeks on end.  

That's a good perspective, too, that I hadn't considered.

[poptart]

39 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Don't hang out with the schismatics, especially since you've got that FSSP chapel nearby  

Well, I mean hang out them as friends for sure, but if you're going to go to a traditional Latin mass, you might as well go to one that cares as much about the liturgy and doctrine as CMRI does but is still in full communion with the Pope.

CMRI is interesting, some of their people are kinda crazy.  My understanding is anyone who pulls what they did are technically just like the protestants right?

By the way, are their baptisms and confirmations valid? 

[3DOP]

4 hours ago, poptart said:

CMRI is interesting, some of their people are kinda crazy.  My understanding is anyone who pulls what they did are technically just like the protestants right?

By the way, are their baptisms and confirmations valid? 

poptart hi,

The Catholic Church teaches that any human can baptize with a correct intention, form, matter, and candidate. Its ironic that any Mormon can validly baptise someone as a Catholic, but if they intend LDS baptism, it is invalid, according to the conciliar (post-Vatican II Catholic) Church. I am not saying they are always wrong. But most of the time? I do not think LDS baptisms are so certainly invalid as Rome has declared. The reasons given in the early 2000's for disqualifying all LDS baptisms seems to require a doctrinal uniformity among LDS that in my experience, does not exist. It is my opinion therefore, that conditional baptisms for LDS converts to the Catholic faith would be more appropriate. I think at least some LDS baptisms are likely to be valid. Further, I think some Protestant baptisms are likely to be invalid. When a case by case basis is not practical to discover the intention of a non-Catholic person baptizing, I would favor that conditional baptism should be the rule. I am happy to have found a priest who conditionally baptized my wife and I.

You need Episcopal Orders for Confirmation along with the other prerequisites. I would not think that CRMI is anymore unaware of this than the Eastern Orthodox, whose Sacraments have always been considered to be valid.

----

Hey all. It is hard to post as much as I might like. But I have enjoyed the comments.

Catholic Tradition is a small world. We have hosted the prior of Kansas City's St. Vincent de Paul Church. We drove him to a retreat once in the foothills of beautiful Mt. Hood, in Oregon. While Catholic Traditionalists may be few in numbers, non-Catholics discover us and are drawn to the Mass of All Time. We are known all out of proportion to how many of us there are.

Jesse...Happy Feast of St. Thomas...and Happy Ferial Days of Advent, which, while penitential, still possess an irrepressible joy of anticipation.

Rory

[poptart]

1 hour ago, 3DOP said:

poptart hi,

The Catholic Church teaches that any human can baptize with a correct intention, form, matter, and candidate. Its ironic that any Mormon can validly baptise someone as a Catholic, but if they intend LDS baptism, it is invalid, according to the conciliar (post-Vatican II Catholic) Church. I am not saying they are always wrong. But most of the time? I do not think LDS baptisms are so certainly invalid as Rome has declared. The reasons given in the early 2000's for disqualifying all LDS baptisms seems to require a doctrinal uniformity among LDS that in my experience, does not exist. It is my opinion therefore, that conditional baptisms for LDS converts to the Catholic faith would be more appropriate. I think at least some LDS baptisms are likely to be valid. Further, I think some Protestant baptisms are likely to be invalid. When a case by case basis is not practical to discover the intention of a non-Catholic person baptizing, I would favor that conditional baptism should be the rule. I am happy to have found a priest who conditionally baptized my wife and I.

You need Episcopal Orders for Confirmation along with the other prerequisites. I would not think that CRMI is anymore unaware of this than the Eastern Orthodox, whose Sacraments have always been considered to be valid.

----

Hey all. It is hard to post as much as I might like. But I have enjoyed the comments.

Catholic Tradition is a small world. We have hosted the prior of Kansas City's St. Vincent de Paul Church. We drove him to a retreat once in the foothills of beautiful Mt. Hood, in Oregon. While Catholic Traditionalists may be few in numbers, non-Catholics discover us and are drawn to the Mass of All Time. We are known all out of proportion to how many of us there are.

Jesse...Happy Feast of St. Thomas...and Happy Ferial Days of Advent, which, while penitential, still possess an irrepressible joy of anticipation.

Rory

Soooo, I've been dunked twice, once elca Lutheran and second time CMRI.  Long story, was in a really bad place mentally and would probably have not done it if I wasn't in the bad place I was and in therapy. 

So their confirmations aren't valid?  They have their Bishop flying around the country doing them.

[3DOP]

51 minutes ago, poptart said:

Soooo, I've been dunked twice, once elca Lutheran and second time CMRI.  Long story, was in a really bad place mentally and would probably have not done it if I wasn't in the bad place I was and in therapy. 

So their confirmations aren't valid?  They have their Bishop flying around the country doing them.

Well poptart...ummm...who that isn't in a "bad place" needs to be baptized? So...I think baptism is for people in bad places...they call us sinners and that means, if I understand your jargon correctly, we are in bad places. I tend to think the bad places thing would not be an impediment at all. In fact, it might be a requirement! Heheh.

Secondly, since the Catholic Church thinks that schismatic Orthodox Confirmations are valid...so presumably would be CMRI Confirmations...They don't go to the trouble of flying a special guy around the country for nothing. I would expect it is a real bishop. The schismatic Orthodox have them. Why would not the apparently schismatic CMRI? I say apparently, only because I think they claim to be Roman Catholic, and they say there is not a pope right now. Orthodox on the other hand, say there IS a bishop of Rome, but they are separated. Which is better? I tend to think CMRI, from my perspective.

What does CMRI stand for anyway? My wife has a friend who goes...up near Seattle. A sweet lady. I know her too. Pray for Cynthia. Good and needy persons can be found anywhere. These are not easy times to see God's will. May God give you a lamp for your path.

[poptart]

1 hour ago, 3DOP said:

Well poptart...ummm...who that isn't in a "bad place" needs to be baptized? So...I think baptism is for people in bad places...they call us sinners and that means, if I understand your jargon correctly, we are in bad places. I tend to think the bad places thing would not be an impediment at all. In fact, it might be a requirement! Heheh.

Secondly, since the Catholic Church thinks that schismatic Orthodox Confirmations are valid...so presumably would be CMRI Confirmations...They don't go to the trouble of flying a special guy around the country for nothing. I would expect it is a real bishop. The schismatic Orthodox have them. Why would not the apparently schismatic CMRI? I say apparently, only because I think they claim to be Roman Catholic, and they say there is not a pope right now. Orthodox on the other hand, say there IS a bishop of Rome, but they are separated. Which is better? I tend to think CMRI, from my perspective.

What does CMRI stand for anyway? My wife has a friend who goes...up near Seattle. A sweet lady. I know her too. Pray for Cynthia. Good and needy persons can be found anywhere. These are not easy times to see God's will. May God give you a lamp for your path.

So that means I'm legit Catholic?  Huh.....

Yeah he was a real bishop.  I'll give the priests they had, geez they work them hard. 

 

Congregation of Mary immaculate.

 

Edited December 22, 2020 by poptart

[The Nehor]

As a counterpoint may I suggest this fine Christmas movie which suggests that the consumerism is actually there by divine intent:

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4009460/?ref_=ttpl_pl_tt

 

Quote

The film starts with Kirk Cameron sitting on a chair by a fireplace and talking directly to the audience, telling them of his love of Christmas but saying the traditional Christmas imagery is "all wrong" and having "nothing to do with Christmas", and blaming atheists for trying to take the holiday away from Christians; he also suggests that Santa Claus is a Christian.

Kirk goes to a Christmas party at the house of his sister (played by Cameron's real-life sister Bridgette Cameron Ridenour). While there he notices that his brother-in-law, Christian (Darren Doane), isn't celebrating like the others. When asked why he seems so sad, Christian says he feels the holiday became too commercialized and consumerist. Kirk tells Christian that he is wrong and starts reminding him of the stories of the Bible. Meanwhile, two guests at the party discuss conspiracy theories.

As Christian complains that several elements of Christmas, most notably Christmas trees, are not biblical in origin. Kirk tells him that Christmas trees were God's idea, since he made the trees. He also says that each tree represents a Christian cross, and suggests the audience to see a cross each time they see a tree. Kirk's brother-in-law is convinced by his arguments, but then starts complaining about Santa Claus for he sees him as an obliteration of Jesus and noticed that "Santa" and "Satan" have the same letters, but Kirk tells him that the original Santa Claus (before being re-interpreted by western culture) was actually named Saint Nicholas beating up non-believers and people who did not believe enough, thus making Santa a good religious figure; his brother-in-law is now convinced that "Santa is the man".

Christian is now convinced of Christmas' faithfulness to its religious roots, and the two return to the party. Kirk then explains that the presents at Christmas represent Jerusalem, and that Christmas is "doing what God does", as he always gave humanity many gifts. He then suggests once more to bring back Christianity in Christmas for our children. His brother-in-law, as a gift for his wife, organizes the same night a hip-hop dance representing his joy of celebrating Christmas, leading to everyone dancing and partying together. Kirk then tells everyone to feast, and suggests the audience organize the best dinner possible for Christmas, but not to forget this is a celebration of God.

 

[california boy]

On 12/20/2020 at 10:10 AM, MiserereNobis said:

I know this is not a new idea, obviously, but I was hoping to have a conversation on how we can "steal" Christmas back from consumerism.

How you celebrate Christmas is TOTALLY up to each individual.  You choose whether to make it all about shopping and presents or focusing on other things.  In my family, we decided to not give presents to each other.  We only buy presents for the grand children.  My kids used to draw names, but I think they have even given up that idea.  We center Christmas around getting together and enjoying the season.  This year, because of covid, just about all community activities have been canceled.  The ones left didn't seem all that safe.  So I put together a bunch of Christmas ornament making activities for the grandkids.  We all gathered outside at my daughters place (yeah, California allows that to happen even in December.). We spread out, shared a meal together.  We all wore masks the whole time.  The grandkids opened their presents from grandpa and then we had the kids make Christmas ornaments.  It was a fun family centered, socially distanced get together.  Yeah it is possible to do things like this safely.  

In past times, our family has also tried making a rule to make all Christmas gifts.  It was fun for a couple of years, but took a lot of time.  Still not a bad idea.  Some years we have only bought family presents.  That has been fun.  Giving chocolate fondue sets, tie dye kits with white tee shirts for each family member, family games, etc. 

I choose to hand craft unique Christmas cards each year to send out.  They have been anything from hand made ceramic ornaments to miniature ginger bread houses.  One year we learned how to make chocolate truffles and sent those out.  This year because I am a glass artist,  I made glass Christmas trees to send out to family and friends.  It is just how I choose to spend my time celebrating Christmas.  

Really, the point of my post is to say that what other people do does not have to affect how you and your family share Christmas.  And as circumstances change, so can how you celebrate.  I honestly don't even notice the commercialization of Christmas any more.  I hope this gives someone some ideas on how to make Christmas the holiday you want it to be.

[Calm]

9 minutes ago, california boy said:

This year because I am a glass artist, 

This is top of my list to learn if my health improves...that and throwing pots. 

[Amulek]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

This is top of my list to learn if my health improves...that and throwing pots. 

Did I hear someone say throwing pots...  

 

[Calm]

30 minutes ago, Amulek said:

Did I hear someone say throwing pots...  

 

Plus ten for a Zelda reference (a longtime favorite in the family).

[poptart]

Speaking of Christmas wishes, here's one.  Would be nice if Christiandom here would get along more instead of playing politics all the time.  If they can do it across the pond and from what i've heard in Canada as well, would be nice if the powers that be give it a try here.

[MiserereNobis]

1 hour ago, poptart said:

Speaking of Christmas wishes, here's one.  Would be nice if Christiandom here would get along more instead of playing politics all the time.  If they can do it across the pond and from what i've heard in Canada as well, would be nice if the powers that be give it a try here.

Ugh. How can Catholics "commemorate" the reformation? That would be like (if I understand it maybe) the LDS church commemorating the Community of Christ or FLDS break-offs. The reformation was a repudiation of the Catholic Church, just like Community of Christ and FLDS is of the LDS church.

Poptart, take something you hold dear and true. Now, imagine someone telling you you are wrong and then they completely repudiate it. Are you going to join in celebration of the fact that they said so?

[3DOP]

21 hours ago, poptart said:

So that means I'm legit Catholic?  Huh.....

Yeah he was a real bishop.  I'll give the priests they had, geez they work them hard. 

 

Congregation of Mary immaculate.

 

Poptart. Hi.

Legit-imate is not synonymous with valid. You would seem to be validly baptized and confirmed, just as any Eastern Orthodox who receives valid Sacraments. Was it your intention to become a Roman Catholic when you were baptized, or were you like a Lutheran who probably receives a valid baptism with no intention at all of submitting to everything that the Roman Catholic Church believes and teaches? 

I am sure I am much more sympathetic to sedevacantist ideas than miserere or most of my fellows who attend SSPX chapels. I do not in any way speak for the Society of St. Pius X. I think they would certainly agree with Jesse that you should stay away from CMRI if you can. I doubt that they would agree with me when I say that if your intention in receiving Sacraments from a CMRI priest or bishop was to conform to the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church, you would be a "legit Catholic", if I understand what that means.

The following is more for you Jesse than anybody:

I am fine with you believing that Francis is pope no matter what, and the same goes for most of my friends who think the same way. But I have to say that I am an agnostic. It is because I do not think the Catholic Church has definitively spoken yet on this question. I pretty much discount my ability to successfully wrestle with the question. It is not my calling.  

My position of agnosticism is based on the mercy of God and the diabolical disorientation, alluded to by Sr. Lucia of Fatima, which haunts the Catholic Church in our age. It is based on Abp. Marcel Lefebvre confiding to a colleague that a future council might declare that John Paul II was never a true pope. It is based on St. Vincent Ferrer mistakenly uniting himself to an anti-pope while retaining an heroic degree of sanctity. It is based on the plausibility of arguments that the election of Pope Francis failed to adhere to canonical norms; that there was illicit collusion which could render Francis' election null and void. Today more than ever, I believe souls striving to be Catholic, do not necessarily fall out of grace because they make a mistake about what the Catholic Church teaches about who has been, or is, or is not a true pope in our times. I do not know. I do not know how to know the truth about the papacy in our times. I would rather be uncertain about what is true, than to express certainty about what could be revealed eventually to be false. I refuse at this time to commit myself to knowing how this will be all sorted out in the end.   

(I thought I needed to explain why I think it is possible that poptart is "legit Catholic", even while affiliated with sedevacantists.)

To the LDS:

Maybe you have missed it, but I have explained before how this "disorientation" of the Church has been prophesied. Now it comes. It is in my times. Of course I do not "like it" that I cannot with certainty identify the pope today. (It helps to have not quite 2,000 years of identifiable vicars of Christ who remain as important today as ever). Still, one has to resist discouragement. The reading this week on Ember Saturday from the Prophet Isaias was from ch. 35. "Take courage," it said, in light of all the unshakable assurances that Christ has come once as a little boy to be our Saviour, who came again in to our hearts, and will come again to judge the living and the dead. It can not mean a decrease of faith to see dark prophecies, even of ecclesiastical disaster come true. It should give the faithful Catholic confidence about the rest of the prophecy. We mustn't doubt the triumphant joy of God's remnant who cling tightly and doggedly to the faith in the darkest of hours. They will rejoice exceedingly to see the day when all the wiles of the Evil One will be foiled and satan is struck down by the God-Man through the Immaculate Heart of His Blessed Mother in the full light of day. To think of it makes the heart glow.     

Y'all take care.

3DOP

Edited December 23, 2020 by 3DOP