Pres. Monson and North America Bom Setting

[Duncan]

In 1979 President Monson put out a book entitled, "Be Your Best Self" and it's a collection of talks that he gave. I don't know when the original talk came out but I posted it below. In it though he quotes Ether 2:12 which reads  "Behold, this is a choice land, and whatsoever nation shall possess it shall be free from bondage, and from captivity, and from all other nations under heaven, if they will but serve the God of the land, who is Jesus Christ" 

https://www.ldsliving.com/President-Monson-America-Needs-You/s/85778?utm_source=ldsliving&utm_medium=email

but then he talks about America's problems and uses the word "American" which is all fine and good but does he think that the phrase "this is a choice land" refer to the United States as if the Book of Mormon or at least the Jaredites lived there? Does he know something we don't and that group that has the Book of Mormon in the USA is actually onto something or he has no idea and is just using the the United States as an example for the points he wants to make. 

Would you think though that most people, President Monson included,  would say that the Book of Mormon did not take place in the United States but took place in Mexico, Chile, Peru or a variation of other Central and South American Counties, wouldn't they be the "choice land"?

 

I only say "BOM" because it's condensed for the topic line

Edited July 4, 2020 by Duncan

[katherine the great]

3 hours ago, Duncan said:

In 1979 President Monson put out a book entitled, "Be Your Best Self" and it's a collection of talks that he gave.

Is that like a "Greatest Hits" album? 😁

[katherine the great]

3 hours ago, Duncan said:

Would you think though that most people, President Monson included,  would say that the Book of Mormon did not take place in the United States but took place in Mexico, Chile, Peru or a variation of other Central and South American Counties, wouldn't they be the "choice land"?

I don't know but I'm guessing most members in their 80's and beyond were raised believing that the Book of Mormon took place in both North and South America.

[Robert F. Smith]

7 hours ago, Duncan said:

In 1979 President Monson put out a book entitled, "Be Your Best Self" and it's a collection of talks that he gave. I don't know when the original talk came out but I posted it below. In it though he quotes Ether 2:12 which reads  "Behold, this is a choice land, and whatsoever nation shall possess it shall be free from bondage, and from captivity, and from all other nations under heaven, if they will but serve the God of the land, who is Jesus Christ" 

https://www.ldsliving.com/President-Monson-America-Needs-You/s/85778?utm_source=ldsliving&utm_medium=email

but then he talks about America's problems and uses the word "American" which is all fine and good but does he think that the phrase "this is a choice land" refer to the United States as if the Book of Mormon or at least the Jaredites lived there? Does he know something we don't and that group that has the Book of Mormon in the USA is actually onto something or he has no idea and is just using the the United States as an example for the points he wants to make. 

Would you think though that most people, President Monson included,  would say that the Book of Mormon did not take place in the United States but took place in Mexico, Chile, Peru or a variation of other Central and South American Counties, wouldn't they be the "choice land"?............................

I'd say either/or.  Seems to me that Ether 2:12 applies as much (perhaps moreso) to the Estados Unidos de Mexico as to the USA.  The United States of Mexico is an independent nation, and a democratic one.  It is a large country, with around 129 million population, which makes it the 10th largest population in the world, and  more than any other Spanish-speaking country.   It has 1,481,530 LDS members in 222 stakes, with 13 temples.  More than any country outside the USA.

Edited July 4, 2020 by Robert F. Smith

[InCognitus]

5 hours ago, Duncan said:

In it though he quotes Ether 2:12 which reads  "Behold, this is a choice land, and whatsoever nation shall possess it shall be free from bondage, and from captivity, and from all other nations under heaven, if they will but serve the God of the land, who is Jesus Christ" 

I always took that "choice land" to mean the entire continent, but that's just me.  And there's that word "captivity" again.  I brought this up in another thread, but 1 Nephi 13 says that one of the main motivations for people going to the new world was to escape the kind of "captivity" described in Ether 2:12:

"And it came to pass that I beheld the Spirit of God, that it wrought upon other Gentiles; and they went forth out of captivity, upon the many waters". (1 Nephi 13:13)

"And I, Nephi, beheld that the Gentiles that had gone out of captivity were delivered by the power of God out of the hands of all other nations".  (1 Nephi 13:19)

Very similar language.

[Duncan]

2 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

I always took that "choice land" to mean the entire continent, but that's just me.  And there's that word "captivity" again.  I brought this up in another thread, but 1 Nephi 13 says that one of the main motivations for people going to the new world was to escape the kind of "captivity" described in Ether 2:12:

"And it came to pass that I beheld the Spirit of God, that it wrought upon other Gentiles; and they went forth out of captivity, upon the many waters". (1 Nephi 13:13)

"And I, Nephi, beheld that the Gentiles that had gone out of captivity were delivered by the power of God out of the hands of all other nations".  (1 Nephi 13:19)

Very similar language.

So, what do you think about Pres. Monson using "choice land" to refer to the USA? is it just subjective or does he know something we don't?! which i'm sure he did but just about Book of Mormon Geography!

[InCognitus]

5 minutes ago, Duncan said:

So, what do you think about Pres. Monson using "choice land" to refer to the USA? is it just subjective or does he know something we don't?! which i'm sure he did but just about Book of Mormon Geography!

I don't think President Monson was intending to make a statement about Book of Mormon geography.  And if I am correct in thinking that "choice land" refers to the entire continent (I'm open to persuasion on that), then the United States would certainly be part of that "choice land", but certainly not that "choice land" exclusively".  Nephi references the "choice land" in his "captivity" comments too:

Quote

"Nevertheless, thou beholdest that the Gentiles who have gone forth out of captivity, and have been lifted up by the power of God above all other nations, upon the face of the land which is choice above all other lands, which is the land that the Lord God hath covenanted with thy father that his seed should have for the land of their inheritance; wherefore, thou seest that the Lord God will not suffer that the Gentiles will utterly destroy the mixture of thy seed, which are among thy brethren".  (1 Nephi 13:30)

This raises questions like, is the land of their inheritance limited to the area that they settled?  I can't answer that, but there is certainly evidence within the Book of Mormon of groups going outside the limited geography that is described within the pages of the Book of Mormon.  Another relevant passage is 2 Nephi 1:4-9:

Quote

4 For, behold, said he, I have seen a vision, in which I know that Jerusalem is destroyed; and had we remained in Jerusalem we should also have perished.
5 But, said he, notwithstanding our afflictions, we have obtained a land of promise, a land which is choice above all other lands; a land which the Lord God hath covenanted with me should be a land for the inheritance of my seed. Yea, the Lord hath covenanted this land unto me, and to my children forever, and also all those who should be led out of other countries by the hand of the Lord.
6 Wherefore, I, Lehi, prophesy according to the workings of the Spirit which is in me, that there shall none come into this land save they shall be brought by the hand of the Lord.
7 Wherefore, this land is consecrated unto him whom he shall bring. And if it so be that they shall serve him according to the commandments which he hath given, it shall be a land of liberty unto them; wherefore, they shall never be brought down into captivity; if so, it shall be because of iniquity; for if iniquity shall abound cursed shall be the land for their sakes, but unto the righteous it shall be blessed forever.
8 And behold, it is wisdom that this land should be kept as yet from the knowledge of other nations; for behold, many nations would overrun the land, that there would be no place for an inheritance.
9 Wherefore, I, Lehi, have obtained a promise, that inasmuch as those whom the Lord God shall bring out of the land of Jerusalem shall keep his commandments, they shall prosper upon the face of this land; and they shall be kept from all other nations, that they may possess this land unto themselves. And if it so be that they shall keep his commandments they shall be blessed upon the face of this land, and there shall be none to molest them, nor to take away the land of their inheritance; and they shall dwell safely forever.
(2 Nephi 1:4–9)

There are some specific promises made in these verses to "those whom the Lord God shall bring out of the land of Jerusalem", and other promises about the land in general.  But it would be impossible to nail down a specific area based on these statements alone and even from President Monson's remarks. 

[Meadowchik]

17 hours ago, katherine the great said:

I don't know but I'm guessing most members in their 80's and beyond were raised believing that the Book of Mormon took place in both North and South America.

Specifically Mormons have been taught that the United States is a choice land with an inspired founding paving a way for the Restoration.

[Boanerges]

I do know some (mostly old) people who think the Book of Mormon took place entirely in North America. That's what they were taught. I recall the occasional post here by BoM "geographers' (for lack of a better word) who also make that case.

I don't know that intended to make that inference but I don't know that he didn't either. He fits with the age group of people I know who believe that. On a personal level I put them in the same category as those who believe the earth is 6000 years old - if they want to believe that, fine, I just happen to believe differently (and I don't need to make an issue of it).

[theplains]

16 hours ago, InCognitus said:

"And it came to pass that I beheld the Spirit of God, that it wrought upon other Gentiles; and they went forth out of captivity, upon the many waters". (1 Nephi 13:13)

"And I, Nephi, beheld that the Gentiles that had gone out of captivity were delivered by the power of God out of the hands of all other nations".  (1 Nephi 13:19)

From the introductory notes of the chapter, the church teaches that the Gentile is Christopher Columbus.

What captivity are you referring to?  Does all other nations include Japan, China, Australia and India?

[theplains]

18 hours ago, katherine the great said:

I don't know but I'm guessing most members in their 80's and beyond were raised believing that the Book of Mormon took place in both North and South America.

President Monson seems to focus  primarily on the United States being this choice land that
Ether 2:12 talks about. I would say that Jesus is the God of the land of Canada too .. and
Mexico, Brazil, etc.

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200615-the-record-breaking-jet-which-still-haunts-a-country

"There is an old Canadian joke that says the best thing that happened to America was the cancellation
of the Arrow"

If Canada had the resources to further expand the program, it is quite possible NASA would be based
in the north country.

[Tacenda]

53 minutes ago, Boanerges said:

I do know some (mostly old) people who think the Book of Mormon took place entirely in North America. That's what they were taught. I recall the occasional post here by BoM "geographers' (for lack of a better word) who also make that case.

I don't know that intended to make that inference but I don't know that he didn't either. He fits with the age group of people I know who believe that. On a personal level I put them in the same category as those who believe the earth is 6000 years old - if they want to believe that, fine, I just happen to believe differently (and I don't need to make an issue of it).

My 80 something aunt posted this meme yesterday on FB, sounds like she's in the older group you speak of:

[Navidad]

21 hours ago, Duncan said:

So, what do you think about Pres. Monson using "choice land" to refer to the USA? is it just subjective or does he know something we don't?! which i'm sure he did but just about Book of Mormon Geography!

I don't know the answer to your question, but I know I would be soundly thrashed in the academic community if I used the word America or American to refer specifically or solely to the United States or its citizens!

 

Edited July 5, 2020 by Navidad

[JAHS]

On 7/4/2020 at 8:48 AM, Duncan said:

In 1979 President Monson put out a book entitled, "Be Your Best Self" and it's a collection of talks that he gave. I don't know when the original talk came out but I posted it below. In it though he quotes Ether 2:12 which reads  "Behold, this is a choice land, and whatsoever nation shall possess it shall be free from bondage, and from captivity, and from all other nations under heaven, if they will but serve the God of the land, who is Jesus Christ" 

https://www.ldsliving.com/President-Monson-America-Needs-You/s/85778?utm_source=ldsliving&utm_medium=email

but then he talks about America's problems and uses the word "American" which is all fine and good but does he think that the phrase "this is a choice land" refer to the United States as if the Book of Mormon or at least the Jaredites lived there? Does he know something we don't and that group that has the Book of Mormon in the USA is actually onto something or he has no idea and is just using the the United States as an example for the points he wants to make. 

Would you think though that most people, President Monson included,  would say that the Book of Mormon did not take place in the United States but took place in Mexico, Chile, Peru or a variation of other Central and South American Counties, wouldn't they be the "choice land"?

 

I only say "BOM" because it's condensed for the topic line

I have always understood the "choice land" to refer to the entire western continent, north and south america, including Canada and not just the USA. There have been times in history when parts of the land were not free from bondage, but were eventually made free. Nobody knows for sure exactly where the events of the Book of Mormon happened, but it must have somehow included the USA since that is where Joseph Smith uncovered the plates.

Edited July 5, 2020 by JAHS

[RevTestament]

2 hours ago, theplains said:

From the introductory notes of the chapter, the church teaches that the Gentile is Christopher Columbus.

What captivity are you referring to?  Does all other nations include Japan, China, Australia and India?

This is one reason why the Gentile referred to cannot be Christopher Columbus. He did not lead anyone out of captivity - he instead captured many Natives and enslaved them. Nor did he ever sail to N. America where the BoM took place. In other words he didn't fulfill the prophecy since he did not come to the land of the descendants of Lehi. 

[RevTestament]

21 hours ago, katherine the great said:

I don't know but I'm guessing most members in their 80's and beyond were raised believing that the Book of Mormon took place in both North and South America.

This is not really possible unless it took place in Panama, which is not geographically consistent with the BoM. Zarahemla was no more than 400 miles away from the original Land of Nephi, because it only took Alma about 22 days to find it when traveling by foot with flocks of animals. This is a limited geography in a large land. Mesoamerica and S. America had several preexisting nations, but the BoM tells us that the land was unknown to other nations. 

3 hours ago, Boanerges said:

I do know some (mostly old) people who think the Book of Mormon took place entirely in North America. That's what they were taught. I recall the occasional post here by BoM "geographers' (for lack of a better word) who also make that case.

I see nothing wrong with that belief, and happen to believe it myself. However, the BoM clearly did not take place in all of N. America for reasons I state above. The events of the BoM take place in a very limited geography. I personally believe the Lamanites intermarried with Natives, and so their story is not so geographically limited, but that is not included in the BoM. 

Quote

I don't know that intended to make that inference but I don't know that he didn't either. He fits with the age group of people I know who believe that. On a personal level I put them in the same category as those who believe the earth is 6000 years old - if they want to believe that, fine, I just happen to believe differently (and I don't need to make an issue of it).

The earth has a temporal history of being 6000 years old but that was after the fall. There was no temporal history before that by definition. Nowhere does scripture tell us the earth was created only 6000 years ago.

Edited July 5, 2020 by RevTestament

[Rajah Manchou]

20 hours ago, JAHS said:

but it must have somehow included the USA since that is where Joseph Smith uncovered the plates.

Mormon buries everything in Cumorah around the time of the last great battle ~380 AD. Let's call this Mormon's Cumorah. At that time, Mormon passes only the Golden Plates to Moroni. Moroni says he'll finish the record and will hide it somewhere, it doesn't matter where, he said.

Moroni spends the next 20 years or so around Mormon's Cumorah. We can assume he doesn't wander too far because he provides an account of the fate of the Nephites and describes the Lamanite wars on the face of "this land". He's obviously still hanging around Cumorah. 

We have no clue where he is between 400 and 421. We can only speculate based on his statement that he will "wander whithersoever [he] can for the safety of [his] own life." I think it is safe to assume Moroni doesn't have a destination in mind, and he's clearly planning to wander that whole time. His only objective is the safety of his own life, so my guess is he abridges the Book of Ether (assuming he translates and abridges the original 24 plates) and returns those plates to Cumorah along with the other records. With that weight off his shoulders, he get's outta Dodge (Lamanite Territory). 

By foot Moroni could have covered a great distance in 20 years. If we allow for boats, which were seemingly common in his land a few centuries previous, he could have gone practically anywhere. I personally doubt that he hung around Mormon's Cumorah during this period. It would make little sense that Moroni lug around the heavy plates for 20 extra years, only to hide them in the same hiding spot with all the other records. 

To add even more uncertainty to all this, 1400 years pass between the closing of the Book of Mormon and the discovery of the plates. We have no idea what might have happened to the plates between the time that Moroni seals them up and the time Joseph Smith claims to find them in the hill near his home.

If anyone sees gaps or inaccuracies in the above, please let me know. 

[Boanerges]

On 7/5/2020 at 10:35 AM, Boanerges said:

I do know some (mostly old) people who think the Book of Mormon took place entirely in North America. That's what they were taught. I recall the occasional post here by BoM "geographers' (for lack of a better word) who also make that case.

 

22 hours ago, RevTestament said:

I see nothing wrong with that belief, and happen to believe it myself. However, the BoM clearly did not take place in all of N. America for reasons I state above. The events of the BoM take place in a very limited geography. I personally believe the Lamanites intermarried with Natives, and so their story is not so geographically limited, but that is not included in the BoM. 

 

I didn't say there was anything wrong with that belief. I don't happen to believe that but I don't take issue with it. I also know a couple who have traveled to the Yucatan several times and are absolutely convinced that the BoM took place there. Fine, if that's their belief based on the evidence they see it's all well and good. I don't take issue with that either.

Edited July 6, 2020 by Boanerges
Corrected typo and quote error

[Rajah Manchou]

23 hours ago, RevTestament said:

This is one reason why the Gentile referred to cannot be Christopher Columbus. He did not lead anyone out of captivity - he instead captured many Natives and enslaved them. Nor did he ever sail to N. America where the BoM took place. In other words he didn't fulfill the prophecy since he did not come to the land of the descendants of Lehi. 

Nephi doesn't say that the man among the Gentile led the Saints of God out of captivity, does he? I'd have to go through it again, but my reading has always been that the man among the Gentiles was moved to go out, and then others later followed. Not necessarily following the man, but just fleeing captivity. 

The captivity thing still puzzles me. In my opinion, the only historical context that fits 1 Nephi 13 is Christians fleeing persecution in the 4th/5th centuries. That's the only time in pre-restoration history that we would have overlap with a group of people that could still claim to be Saints of God, and also persecution by a Great and Abominable (whatever that is). Anything after that period would have been during the Apostasy, and I can't pinpoint what post-Apostasy group Nephi would see in vision and identify as "Saints of God".

Edited July 6, 2020 by Rajah Manchou

[JAHS]

5 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

Mormon buries everything in Cumorah around the time of the last great battle ~380 AD. Let's call this Mormon's Cumorah. At that time, Mormon passes only the Golden Plates to Moroni. Moroni says he'll finish the record and will hide it somewhere, it doesn't matter where, he said.

Moroni spends the next 20 years or so around Mormon's Cumorah. We can assume he doesn't wander too far because he provides an account of the fate of the Nephites and describes the Lamanite wars on the face of "this land". He's obviously still hanging around Cumorah. 

We have no clue where he is between 400 and 421. We can only speculate based on his statement that he will "wander whithersoever [he] can for the safety of [his] own life." I think it is safe to assume Moroni doesn't have a destination in mind, and he's clearly planning to wander that whole time. His only objective is the safety of his own life, so my guess is he abridges the Book of Ether (assuming he translates and abridges the original 24 plates) and returns those plates to Cumorah along with the other records. With that weight off his shoulders, he get's outta Dodge (Lamanite Territory). 

By foot Moroni could have covered a great distance in 20 years. If we allow for boats, which were seemingly common in his land a few centuries previous, he could have gone practically anywhere. I personally doubt that he hung around Mormon's Cumorah during this period. It would make little sense that Moroni lug around the heavy plates for 20 extra years, only to hide them in the same hiding spot with all the other records. 

To add even more uncertainty to all this, 1400 years pass between the closing of the Book of Mormon and the discovery of the plates. We have no idea what might have happened to the plates between the time that Moroni seals them up and the time Joseph Smith claims to find them in the hill near his home.

If anyone sees gaps or inaccuracies in the above, please let me know. 

That's pretty much the scenario I have always believed.  I have heard some say that the plates Moroni had were somehow magically transported from central America to the New York spot, but I don't buy that. 
However it is hard to explain the cave in the New York Hill that Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery went in to that supposedly had all the records. Not sure how accurate or real that report is.

[Bob Crockett]

On 7/5/2020 at 10:29 AM, RevTestament said:

I see nothing wrong with that belief, and happen to believe it myself. However, the BoM clearly did not take place in all of N. America for reasons I state above. The events of the BoM take place in a very limited geography. I personally believe the Lamanites intermarried with Natives, and so their story is not so geographically limited, but that is not included in the BoM. 

Only a small group of Latter-day Saints believes what you've said.  You'll not find the theory repeated in any conference address or church manual.  Even Kieth Merrill, who produced BoM videos about central American, has recanted.  See here.  If you compare the Amazon sales of Bruce Porter's and Rod Meldrum's book versus John Sorenson's books, there is a vast disparity.

My personal belief is that a limited theory evolved in response to DNA challenges or the lack of on-the-ground evidence.  Draw the circle tightly to exclude all that nasty stuff.  The limited geography theory of Mesoamerica is just one more example of academics trying to drive the bus over Joseph Smith.

I think Joseph Smith would be surprised.  Surprised at the existence of a bus.

Edited July 6, 2020 by Bob Crockett

[Robert F. Smith]

7 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

Mormon buries everything in Cumorah around the time of the last great battle ~380 AD. Let's call this Mormon's Cumorah. At that time, Mormon passes only the Golden Plates to Moroni. Moroni says he'll finish the record and will hide it somewhere, it doesn't matter where, he said.

Moroni spends the next 20 years or so around Mormon's Cumorah. We can assume he doesn't wander too far because he provides an account of the fate of the Nephites and describes the Lamanite wars on the face of "this land". He's obviously still hanging around Cumorah. 

We have no clue where he is between 400 and 421. We can only speculate based on his statement that he will "wander whithersoever [he] can for the safety of [his] own life." I think it is safe to assume Moroni doesn't have a destination in mind, and he's clearly planning to wander that whole time. His only objective is the safety of his own life, so my guess is he abridges the Book of Ether (assuming he translates and abridges the original 24 plates) and returns those plates to Cumorah along with the other records. With that weight off his shoulders, he get's outta Dodge (Lamanite Territory). 

By foot Moroni could have covered a great distance in 20 years. If we allow for boats, which were seemingly common in his land a few centuries previous, he could have gone practically anywhere. I personally doubt that he hung around Mormon's Cumorah during this period. It would make little sense that Moroni lug around the heavy plates for 20 extra years, only to hide them in the same hiding spot with all the other records. 

To add even more uncertainty to all this, 1400 years pass between the closing of the Book of Mormon and the discovery of the plates. We have no idea what might have happened to the plates between the time that Moroni seals them up and the time Joseph Smith claims to find them in the hill near his home.

If anyone sees gaps or inaccuracies in the above, please let me know. 

Fairly accurate.  However, there is another issue:  Joseph Smith did not need to look at the plates while translating.  Hence, any EModE translator would not need to either, and he would likely put such a translation into the English style he already knew, including all the intertextual references which he might have known (even implicitly).

[Rajah Manchou]

3 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Joseph Smith did not need to look at the plates while translating. 

After going through those final additions by Moroni, it does feel like he was not at all concerned about the fate of the physical plates. He is the guardian of the plates but says things like "and whether they will slay me, I know not" and "whither I go it mattereth not" and even before he seals up the plates in 421 AD he seems surprised that he survived that long, long enough to take the plates to a particular location and bury them. I get the impression that had he died at any point between 400 AD and 421 AD the restoration would have rolled on as planned, even if the plates were lost, destroyed or recovered by Lamanites.

After 400 AD, Moroni has no real destination, and no dedicated final resting place for the plates, in mind. This supports the idea that the physical plates were not essential to the translation effort, or that they could be easily transferred from one point to another with or without Moroni's intervention.

Edited July 7, 2020 by Rajah Manchou

[Robert F. Smith]

6 hours ago, Bob Crockett said:

........................ If you compare the Amazon sales of Bruce Porter's and Rod Meldrum's book versus John Sorenson's books, there is a vast disparity.

Chad Daybell probably gets better sales.  Popularity among the hoi polloi is not going to favor academic books.  At the same time, it is precisely Professor Sorenson's articles in the 1985 Ensign and Liahona which have shown what the Brethren find most convincing.  No such Meldrum version of Book of Mormon geography has appeared in the Church magazines.  I wonder why?  Could it be that only one place in the Americas shows a civilization with literacy, huge populations, and significant building (with cement)?

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/liahona/1985/04/digging-into-the-book-of-mormon-part-2?lang=eng

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/liahona/1985/06/digging-into-the-book-of-mormon-part-3?lang=eng

6 hours ago, Bob Crockett said:

My personal belief is that a limited theory evolved in response to DNA challenges or the lack of on-the-ground evidence.  ................

A very odd belief in light of DNA science not being invented until many decades after Sorenson and others had formulated the Mesoamerican theory based directly on archeological evidence.  Even in Joseph Smith's day the 1840s publication of the adventures of Stephens & Catherwood in Southern Mexico and Yucatan caught the Prophet's attention, causing him to speculate.  And with good reason.

[Robert F. Smith]

37 minutes ago, Rajah Manchou said:

After going through those final additions by Moroni, it does feel like he was not at all concerned about the fate of the physical plates. He is the guardian of the plates but says things like "and whether they will slay me, I know not" and "whither I go it mattereth not" and even before he seals up the plates in 421 AD he seems surprised that he survived that long, long enough to take the plates to a particular location and bury them. I get the impression that had he died at any point between 400 AD and 421 AD the restoration would have rolled on as planned, even if the plates were lost, destroyed or recovered by Lamanites.

After 400 AD, Moroni has no real destination, and no dedicated final resting place for the plates, in mind. This supports the idea that the physical plates were not essential to the translation effort, or that they could be easily transferred from one point to another with or without Moroni's intervention.

I think that this avoids the internal contents of the BofM referring directly to Joseph Smith Jr and his father.  The plates, breastplate, and oracles are the cosmic relics required for the call of the prophet: https://qr.ae/pNKz75