New Symbol to Identify the Church

[Tacenda]

31 minutes ago, Garden Girl said:

While I appreciate the Christus, I always loved the image of Moroni and his trumpeting the good news of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ... it was unique to LDS and recognizable as such...

GG

I think so too, just as the non LDS Christians display the symbol of a fish on their car bumpers and not the Christus, people know it has something to do with Christ. And the angel with a trumpet does as well...

https://www.ucg.org/bible-study-tools/booklets/the-rapture-vs-the-bible/the-seventh-trumpet-the-return-of-jesus-christ

[MiserereNobis]

2 hours ago, teddyaware said:

In your own words, in one or two succinct sentences, what exactly is the Catholic doctrine of original sin?

My words: There's something inherently wrong with us all that makes us do things contrary to God's will no matter how hard we try otherwise.

From your recent GC choir song: Prone to wander, Lord I feel it, prone to leave the God I love!

 

[Scott Lloyd]

3 hours ago, JAHS said:

 I only said LDS Church because he referred to LDS baptisms.

Got it. 

[teddyaware]

35 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

My words: There's something inherently wrong with us all that makes us do things contrary to God's will no matter how hard we try otherwise.

From your recent GC choir song: Prone to wander, Lord I feel it, prone to leave the God I love!

 

Another way of saying the fallen nature or the carnal state of the natural man? If so, we believe in the exact same thing. See for yourself:

7 Wherefore, it must needs be an infinite atonement—save it should be an infinite atonement this corruption (the fallen nature) could not put on incorruption (the nature of the new redeemed man in Christ Jesus). Wherefore, the first judgment which came upon man (Adam and his offspring being made carnal and sensual and cast out of God’s holy presence forever) must needs have remained to an endless duration. And if so, this flesh must have laid down to rot and to crumble to its mother earth, to rise no more.
8 O the wisdom of God, his mercy and grace! For behold, if the flesh (the seat of the fallen nature);should rise no more our spirits must become subject to that angel who fell from before the presence of the Eternal God, and became the devil, to rise no more.
9 And our spirits must have become like unto him, and we become devils, angels to a devil, to be shut out from the presence of our God (as bad or “inherently wrong” as it can get), to remain with the father of lies, in misery, like unto himself... (2 Nephi 9)

So we believe without the redemption of Christ by very nature we would all be condemned to remain in that fallen state of corruption and spiritual death forever. 

So how do we differ?

Edited April 10, 2020 by teddyaware

[MiserereNobis]

7 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

So how do we differ?

You tell me  

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, Garden Girl said:

While I appreciate the Christus, I always loved the image of Moroni and his trumpeting the good news of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ... it was unique to LDS and recognizable as such...

GG

I very much agree with this, Garden Girl. Which is why I hasten to assure you that Moroni is not being removed as a symbol in the Church of the very concepts you express here. 
 

It saddens me to see you write in the past tense (“... it was unique to LDS and recognizable as such ...”). I’m confident the Moroni symbol will go on filling that role in the Church as frequently as ever. It was never used for the purposes that the new symbol in the Church is being used for now. There is room for both. 
 

Please don’t buy into the ill-informed and absurd social media and internet chatter to the effect that Moroni has been displaced as a symbol in the Church. The purveyors of this notion quite plainly don’t know what they’re talking about. As the humorist said: “‘Tain’t what a man knows that gets him in trouble. It’s what he thinks he knows that just ain’t so.”

I’m convinced that at least some of these purveyors have an ulterior motive. They want to resist President Nelson’s endeavor to emphasize the centrality of Jesus Christ as the author of our faith, the Founder of our religion. To do this, they have invented a straw man in the form of this “goodbye, Moroni” nonsense. Don’t buy in to their sophistry. Remember that President Nelson identified the “victory for Satan” not as use of the word Mormon but as the de facto removal of the name of Christ from the name of His Church. I’m doing my bit to prevent that. 

[Scott Lloyd]

50 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

My words: There's something inherently wrong with us all that makes us do things contrary to God's will no matter how hard we try otherwise.

From your recent GC choir song: Prone to wander, Lord I feel it, prone to leave the God I love!

 

We express that truth in the Book of Mormon doctrine that the “natural man is an enemy to God” and will be forever until he “yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit” and puts off the natural man and becomes a saint. 

[MiserereNobis]

7 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

We express that truth in the Book of Mormon doctrine that the “natural man is an enemy to God” and will be forever until he “yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit” and puts off the natural man and becomes a saint. 

Indeed! Only God can take us from the "natural man" and purify us.

[Scott Lloyd]

2 hours ago, california boy said:

My comment was addressing this asserting by you, which is not true.

Moroni is a Church logo.

 

Not quite.  Logo is not just an abbreviation for logotype.  There is a subtle difference between the two.  A logotype is a logo made up of words and or letters.  A logo is a more general term .  It can be a symbol and/or letters or words. A logotype can not be a symbol.  For example IBM is both a logo and a logotype.  Starbucks symbol is a logo, but not a logotype. Coca-Cola is a logotype and a logo.  The Pepsi circle is a logo, but not a logotype.

From Wikipedia: 

“A logo (abbreviation of logotype,^[4] from Greek: λόγος, romanized: logos, lit. 'word' and Greek: τύπος, romanized: typos, lit. 'imprint') is a graphic mark, emblem, or symbol used to aid and promote public identification and recognition. It may be of an abstract or figurative design or include the text of the name it represents as in a wordmark.”

And I still say that the angel Moroni icon was not used for the same purposes or to the same extent that the official Church logo was used before or that the new symbol that President Nelson unveiled last weekend is being used now. 
 

Let’s get off the “goodbye, Moroni” kick. Moroni is not going away. 

[teddyaware]

1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

You tell me  

It appears we don’t differ. It seems the Catholics and Latter-Day Saints have been needlessly arguing on this point of doctrine forever because we think we disagree as a consequence of not using the same terminology to describe a commonly held belief.

Another problem that feeds into the needless arguing is there are many Latter-Day Saints who fail to understand what the Book of Mormon actually teaches with regard to the inescapability of the fallen nature unless and until one exercises living faith in Christ unto redemption from the otherwise fixed and inescapable carnal nature.

What needs to be understood is no matter how hard one might try to gain entry into heaven by striving to do good, even the mightiest of efforts will never be good enough because the only divinely decreed way to escape from the fallen nature, and become new creatures in Christ, is by repentance and being reconciled to God through faith in the mercy, grace and redemptive power of the infinite and eternal atonement of Jesus Christ, the only being powerful enough to overthrow the fallen nature. Just as the prophet Jacob testifies, unless and until we come unto Christ a state of spiritual death will remain the core our nature for an endless duration. Christ is the only means of escape from that inherent something within us that everlastingly isn’t right.

 

Edited April 10, 2020 by teddyaware

[Garden Girl]

2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I very much agree with this, Garden Girl. Which is why I hasten to assure you that Moroni is not being removed as a symbol in the Church of the very concepts you express here. 
 

It saddens me to see you write in the past tense (“... it was unique to LDS and recognizable as such ...”). I’m confident the Moroni symbol will go on filling that role in the Church as frequently as ever. It was never used for the purposes that the new symbol in the Church is being used for now. There is room for both. 

Thank you, Scott, for the clarification... I'm glad to hear it...

GG

 

 

 

 

Edited April 10, 2020 by Garden Girl

[hope_for_things]

11 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Actually, no, after researching the question the Vatican determined that LDS baptisms are not valid because of form and intent. While the words are the same (Father, Son, and Holy Ghost), the meaning behind the words is too different to be valid (not just non-Trinitarian, but physical bodies, etc). Also, the lack of intent to remove original sin makes the baptism invalid.

Click here for the official document from the Vatican.

Thanks for sharing this, it seems odd to me that they would call out this one denomination and give blanket approval for all others.  I wonder if there are other exceptions for other traditions as well.  

[Fair Dinkum]

On 4/9/2020 at 4:35 PM, Scott Lloyd said:

Why are you perpetuating the falsehood that Moroni was the Church’s logo? You and hft need to get off this kick. 

Moroni has long been a symbol (logo) of the church and membership in it.  Moroni has been and is currently used on military headstones, lapel pin's,  The World's Fair Pavilion,  The Mormon channel,  The Gospel Library App  just to name a few.  The church has used Moroni as an easy and quick symbol (logo) to identify the church and its members.  It's  a bit disingenuous of you Bro Lloyd and frankly Gaslighting for you to state otherwise.

When a coffee shop in Taylorsville tried to use a form of the Moroni logo to its benefit, the church even threatened legal action to protect its trademark.

 

https://www.heraldextra.com/news/opinion/editorial/this-moroni-is-protected/article_b3f44912-fbe0-575b-b78d-7d5315e4cdc1.html

We don't allow personal insults. Stick to the topic.

[Scott Lloyd]

11 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said:

Moroni has long been a symbol (logo) of the church and membership in it.  Moroni has been and is currently used on military headstones, lapel pin's,  The World's Fair Pavilion,  The Mormon channel,  The Gospel Library App  just to name a few.  The church has used Moroni as an easy and quick symbol (logo) to identify the church and its members.  It's  a bit disingenuous of you Bro Lloyd and frankly Gaslighting for you to state otherwise.

I’m not gaslighting, and I resent that character-based accusation. 
 

As I clearly indicated earlier I was referring to uses of the standard Church logo consisting of the full name of the Church in a distinctive typeface and format with the name of Christ prominent in a larger point size. The new symbol is now being used in place of that one, uses for which the Moroni icon never would have been used in the first place. 
 

Time to move away from this “goodbye Moroni” silliness. Moroni is not going away, and it is sophistry to claim otherwise. 

[Bob Crockett]

24 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said:

Moroni has long been a symbol (logo) of the church and membership in it.  Moroni has been and is currently used on military headstones, lapel pin's,  The World's Fair Pavilion,  The Mormon channel,  The Gospel Library App  just to name a few.  The church has used Moroni as an easy and quick symbol (logo) to identify the church and its members.  It's  a bit disingenuous of you Bro Lloyd and frankly Gaslighting for you to state otherwise.

The Church claims an interest in the Moroni logo.   See https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/media-library/images/category/angel-moroni-statues?lang=eng.  I don't see that going away.

[Fair Dinkum]

11 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I’m not gaslighting, and I resent that character-based accusation. 
 

As I clearly indicated earlier I was referring to uses of the standard Church logo consisting of the full name of the Church in a distinctive typeface and format with the name of Christ prominent in a larger point size. The new symbol is now being used in place of that one, uses for which the Moroni icon never would have been used in the first place. 
 

Time to move away from this “goodbye Moroni” silliness. Moroni is not going away, and it is sophistry to claim otherwise. 

I'm guessing that you're lot's of fun at parties too.  Why do you take everything so seriously.  Dude loosen up some, it was a joke. The gaslighting comment wasn't a joke, I was being serious with that remark.

Edited April 10, 2020 by Fair Dinkum

[Scott Lloyd]

3 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said:

I'm guessing that you're lot's of fun at parties too.  Why do you take everything so seriously.  Dude loosen up some, it was a joke.

“Gaslighting” (a common buzzword in the current political and social outrage culture) is an ugly accusation that directly impugns a person’s honesty. I don’t take kindly to it. You should be more discriminating in your selection of “jokes.”

 

[california boy]

9 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

“Gaslighting” (a common buzzword in the current political and social outrage culture) is an ugly accusation that directly impugns a person’s honesty. I don’t take kindly to it. You should be more discriminating in your selection of “jokes.”

 

Because you said this Scott

Quote

Why are you perpetuating the falsehood that Moroni was the Church’s logo? You and hft need to get off this kick. 

You accused Fair Dinkum of perpetuating a falsehood, when in FACT, Moroni IS a logo of the Church.  Is it really so difficult for you to apologize once in a while for being wrong?  Or maybe you feel you can call someone a liar for something that was in fact true, and then pretend you never called him that.  (gaslighting)

[Scott Lloyd]

9 minutes ago, california boy said:

Because you said this Scott

You accused Fair Dinkum of perpetuating a falsehood, when in FACT, Moroni IS a logo of the Church.  Is it really so difficult for you to apologize once in a while for being wrong?  Or maybe you feel you can call someone a liar for something that was in fact true, and then pretend you never called him that.  (gaslighting)

I’m not wrong. I demonstrated with a Wikipedia quote that “logo” is in fact an abbreviation for “logotype,” contrary to your unsubstantiated assertion, and that the word logo, in normative usage, can refer to words, images or both. 
 

And let’s be clear: Though Moroni has long been used commonly as a symbol in the Church (no one here is disputing that), it has not been employed as the official Church logo in uses for which the new symbol is being used today. For that the logo was used that I have described, i.e. full name of the Church in distinctive typeface and formatting with the name Jesus Christ being prominent. 

Edited April 10, 2020 by Scott Lloyd

[Tacenda]

9 hours ago, teddyaware said:

Another way of saying the fallen nature or the carnal state of the natural man? If so, we believe in the exact same thing. See for yourself:

7 Wherefore, it must needs be an infinite atonement—save it should be an infinite atonement this corruption (the fallen nature) could not put on incorruption (the nature of the new redeemed man in Christ Jesus). Wherefore, the first judgment which came upon man (Adam and his offspring being made carnal and sensual and cast out of God’s holy presence forever) must needs have remained to an endless duration. And if so, this flesh must have laid down to rot and to crumble to its mother earth, to rise no more.
8 O the wisdom of God, his mercy and grace! For behold, if the flesh (the seat of the fallen nature);should rise no more our spirits must become subject to that angel who fell from before the presence of the Eternal God, and became the devil, to rise no more.
9 And our spirits must have become like unto him, and we become devils, angels to a devil, to be shut out from the presence of our God (as bad or “inherently wrong” as it can get), to remain with the father of lies, in misery, like unto himself... (2 Nephi 9)

So we believe without the redemption of Christ by very nature we would all be condemned to remain in that fallen state of corruption and spiritual death forever. 

So how do we differ?

I think using the "natural man" metaphor is an excuse to act badly with some people. I don't care for the idea at all. 

[Calm]

I believe Scott is talking about the company logo, not various images associated with the organization. 
 

Think Disney. Tinkerbell and Mickey Mouse are not its company logo, even though they have been one of many images associated with it. 
 This  has the Disney logo overtime:  https://Www.turbologo.com/articles/the-walt-disney-logo/amp/

Edited April 10, 2020 by Calm

[The Nehor]

14 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Actually, no, after researching the question the Vatican determined that LDS baptisms are not valid because of form and intent. While the words are the same (Father, Son, and Holy Ghost), the meaning behind the words is too different to be valid (not just non-Trinitarian, but physical bodies, etc). Also, the lack of intent to remove original sin makes the baptism invalid.

Click here for the official document from the Vatican.

Odd that saying that baptism predates Christ's mortal life is somehow a key point against us. The idea that Christ did not institute baptism is wrong. He just instituted it before He was born.

All that being said with D&C 22 we do not have any leeway to complain that others do not accept our ordinances.

[Calm]

From the link:

Quote

According to the New Testament, there is an essential difference between the Baptism of John and Christian Baptism. 

Yet Christ was baptized by John. 

[Bob Crockett]

21 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I’m not wrong. I demonstrated with a Wikipedia quote that “logo” is in fact an abbreviation for “logotype,” contrary to your unsubstantiated assertion, and that the word logo, in normative usage, can refer to words, images or both. 
 

And let’s be clear: Though Moroni has long been used commonly as a symbol in the Church (no one here is disputing that), it has not been employed as the official Church logo in uses for which the new symbol is being used today. For that the logo was used that I have described, i.e. full name of the Church in distinctive typeface and formatting with the name Jesus Christ being prominent. 

You're just misreading these guys, I hope not intentionally.  There is no such thing as "the" logo.  The question is whether Moroni is "a" logo of the Church.   Logos may be copyrighted, or not.  If not copyrighted they may still be subject to trade dress protection under the Lanham Act.  For instance, the Golden Arches are trade dress.  But McDonald's has other copyrighted items.  

The Church claims an interest in the Moroni figure as it sits atop temples.  I don't know if it claims an interest if other Moroni symbols.  That doesn't mean the Church doesn't have other logos registered or otherwise protected.  The Church, for instance, claims a copyright in our modern version of the Book of Mormon (circa 1979?).  That doesn't mean it doesn't have other copyrights. 

So, you can argue all you want about the Christus coupled with the wording of the church being "the" logo.  It isn't.  It is "a" logo and likely copyrighted, along with hundreds of other copyrights owned by the Church. 

[Calm]

19 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I think using the "natural man" metaphor is an excuse to act badly with some people. I don't care for the idea at all. 

In what sense do you not care for the idea?  In condemning the natural man or that there is seen a natural man at all?