The Effect of the Virus on the Church

[strappinglad]

For the sake of argument , let's assume the current condition lasts until mid summer. What long term effects do you see? Will Church attendance return or be permanently changed? Will missionary work /callings change? How about tithing/fast offerings? 

[RevTestament]

I had no idea the devastating effect this virus would have, although I suspected it was quite contagious, and more deadly than the flu. However, it is nothing compared to what will come in this last millennium. I only wish people would take the opportunity to grow closer to their families and to grow in faith. I do not know if this virus is now going to be a permanent part of our lives, but I suspect if no drugs render its demise, that we will mostly become immune to it eventually. That means things will eventually return to a state of semi-normalcy. But, I hope the Church becomes stronger through this crisis. and that those whose faith was wavering will see the fleeting nature of their mortality, and maybe give Yeshua another chance.

[Robert F. Smith]

9 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

For the sake of argument , let's assume the current condition lasts until mid summer. What long term effects do you see? Will Church attendance return or be permanently changed? Will missionary work /callings change? How about tithing/fast offerings? 

The LDS Church will come out of this (as will many other organizations) far more digitally sophisticated.  The software was already available.  We are simply being forced to use it systematically and en masse.

The priesthood will now be far more able to do things which were once restricted to those few called upon to preside over and pass the Sacrament of the Lord's Supper.  Doing it at home makes if far more personal and compelling.

The entire missionary effort will be reevaluated and perhaps redefined.  This may be a huge change, and Pres Nelson may even have something to say at Conference to all those who were recently called and then suddenly had their missions interrupted.  A great opportunity to improve on something which may have gotten stuck in a rut.

Yes, everyone will be back when this is all over, and there will be smiles all around to see those whom we love, respect, and care about.

For those whose livelihoods and income has effectively been destroyed, there will need to be a communal effort to take care of them in the interim.  Unemployment will be a huge problem.  It will take years to get ourselves out of the coming Depression, but we Mormons have always been equal to that task.  I never thought we could ever have it as tough as the Pioneers, but it may come to that.  We will likely be growing food to eat in our yards, if we have them.  Children and grandchildren may have to come home to live with their parents for awhile.  People are going to lose their homes.  We are going to be humbled.

Some of those who were so critical of the Church saving up big time for a rainy day, may now think better of their shallow comments.

[Meadowchik]

5 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Some of those who were so critical of the Church saving up big time for a rainy day, may now think better of their shallow comments.

I would love for the church to validate its accrual of wealth by putting it to good use in the coming times of need!

However, I don't think those remarks were shallow. On the contrary, the concern that such funds are laying wasted when there is suffering to be alleviated is legitimate. Furthermore, if other wealthy philanthropic organisations are any indication, there are things which might have been done already which would have put people around the globe in much better positions to survive the coming difficulties.

[Meadowchik]

It's really, really hard to predict what impact the pandemic will have on the church. There are so many countries involved and different types of impact on them individually. 

Something I think needs to be done on global and local scales, in contexts like government and industry and private organisations like the church, is systems improvements. There are some types of systems which are bound to fail even under the best of circumstances, and sometimes they fail even when they were deliberately built to be safer. Those "doomed" systems are to reliant on exact variables, and their problem is when people (even people with good intentions) do not understand what causes failure or what characterizes fail-safe measures. These systems tend to be highly complex and therefore can also be tipped over with small problems. What they generally need is the removal of unnecessary complexity, and fail-safes which are built wisely with a realistic understanding of their impact.

I think President Hinckley had a very good point years ago when he said that the church needed to simplify to become more adaptible to changes. He was referring to its expanding membership numbers at the time, but I think his point applies to other changes which also challenge the church's ability to function. Like Robert said and as I mentioned a few weeks ago, the church is already poised to function remotely. I think these capabilities might be refined and developed further to address worship service needs for those in isolation and quarantine. As a worldwide organisation, I think there is so much potential is ways the church can have a positive impact on the world, materially and spiritually.

Yet, the current church structure still seems to be that church units outside the US are relatively reliant on (usually American) missionaries to keep things functioning.  These "mission field" regions might be severely impacted by a leadership vacuum that is probably inevitable due to this pandemic. So that's possibly a serious problem.

So, in short, the church still has a great deal of potential but also some major challenges in the days ahead. 

[Robert F. Smith]

3 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

I would love for the church to validate its accrual of wealth by putting it to good use in the coming times of need!

However, I don't think those remarks were shallow. On the contrary, the concern that such funds are laying wasted when there is suffering to be alleviated is legitimate. Furthermore, if other wealthy philanthropic organisations are any indication, there are things which might have been done already which would have put people around the globe in much better positions to survive the coming difficulties.

Jesus told a parable of putting the Lord's money to work and expanding its value.  Those who merely spend it all as fast as it comes in are missing the real opportunity to expand its value and make it possible to help even more people than would be the case by spending immediately.  Strategic thinking is always superior.  The chess player who is only thinking of his next move loses.  The one who plans ahead several moves is the one who prevails.

Among children, a test to find the child with the best and most long-lasting values is the one who is willing to put off immediate gratification for a bigger gain later.  Most children fail the test.  Maturity comes hard to many people, and they are the ones who have a hand-to-mouth existence.  When emergencies come, they are the least able to cope.  They haven't planned ahead and thus find themselves behind the eight-ball.  Joseph who was sold into Egypt realized this and helped Pharaoh plan for the lean years by stocking up during the years of plenty.  There is a wise philosophy behind that sort of planning.  The kind of wisdom that leaders like Brigham Young and Winston Churchill also demonstrated.  Strategic thinking wins the day.

Moreover, among philanthropic organizations, the LDS community has a far higher rate of giving than any other (according to the non-Mormon Chronicle of Phlanthropy).  Mormons just give more per capita, and we have one of the best organized and supplied charitable and emergency welfare systems in the world.  Indeed, no charitable donations are used for administrative or advertising costs -- unlike most other charities.  We have the distinction of having a system run by people who do not get rich while running the system.  That is quite unusual.

[Scott Lloyd]

4 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

I would love for the church to validate its accrual of wealth by putting it to good use in the coming times of need!

However, I don't think those remarks were shallow. On the contrary, the concern that such funds are laying wasted when there is suffering to be alleviated is legitimate. Furthermore, if other wealthy philanthropic organisations are any indication, there are things which might have been done already which would have put people around the globe in much better positions to survive the coming difficulties.

Keeping a substantial reserve fund to meet future needs is not an invalid “accrual of wealth.” And yes, those remarks were indeed shallow, as can be clearly seen now by any reasonably minded individual. 

Edited April 2, 2020 by Scott Lloyd

[Meadowchik]

47 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Jesus told a parable of putting the Lord's money to work and expanding its value.  Those who merely spend it all as fast as it comes in are missing the real opportunity to expand its value and make it possible to help even more people than would be the case by spending immediately.  Strategic thinking is always superior.  The chess player who is only thinking of his next move loses.  The one who plans ahead several moves is the one who prevails.

Among children, a test to find the child with the best and most long-lasting values is the one who is willing to put off immediate gratification for a bigger gain later.  Most children fail the test.  Maturity comes hard to many people, and they are the ones who have a hand-to-mouth existence.  When emergencies come, they are the least able to cope.  They haven't planned ahead and thus find themselves behind the eight-ball.  Joseph who was sold into Egypt realized this and helped Pharaoh plan for the lean years by stocking up during the years of plenty.  There is a wise philosophy behind that sort of planning.  The kind of wisdom that leaders like Brigham Young and Winston Churchill also demonstrated.  Strategic thinking wins the day.

Moreover, among philanthropic organizations, the LDS community has a far higher rate of giving than any other (according to the non-Mormon Chronicle of Phlanthropy).  Mormons just give more per capita, and we have one of the best organized and supplied charitable and emergency welfare systems in the world.  Indeed, no charitable donations are used for administrative or advertising costs -- unlike most other charities.  We have the distinction of having a system run by people who do not get rich while running the system.  That is quite unusual.

I agree with strategic thinking guiding philanthropy. However, the lack of transparency of the church with its finances makes it difficult to assess and also difficult to defend its wealth accrual, in my opinion.

[Meadowchik]

47 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

...as can be clearly seen now by any reasonably minded individual. 

What a reasonable argument for an argument!

[The Nehor]

13 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

I agree with strategic thinking guiding philanthropy. However, the lack of transparency of the church with its finances makes it difficult to assess and also difficult to defend its wealth accrual, in my opinion.

Considering the credentials and history of those who want to "assess" the church's finances I doubt transparency would have convinced anyone of anything.

[The Nehor]

I suspect the church will come out of this more lean in terms of members and probably programs.

The church will also have to navigate the cultural, economic, and social shifts this will cause and that response will be different throughout the world.

I can only speak anecdotally but we have had inactives reach out in my ward wanting to be a part again and many did not even start with their hand out for welfare help.

[Calm]

27 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

can only speak anecdotally but we have had inactives reach out in my ward wanting to be a part again and many did not even start with their hand out for welfare help.

Does this not counteract the idea that numbers will be leaner though?

[The Nehor]

15 minutes ago, Calm said:

Does this not counteract the idea that numbers will be leaner though?

I also expect some members not to come back at all when this is over. I hope I am wrong.

[Boanerges]

The Black Plague was a historical turning point in multiple ways. One of those ways was a loss of faith in the church. Despite promised blessings, mothers and fathers and sons and daughters still died. Priestly blessings did not save them. I could see a similar realization among some members as a result of this modern plague. I think we will lose some, and as Nehor pointed out perhaps some will return. I don't think this will be unique to our church, I think other churches will have similar experiences. The church as not yet experienced the virus in great numbers, bu it is likely that the societal trend will also hold true for members and about the same percentage of church members compared to the population in general will get the virus.

As others have said, I think the church as an institution may come out leaner as well. There has been a recent trend toward simplification, and I think the experience may prompt more simplification - we will know what we can live without. The church's use of technology has turned out to be important and we will see that more than ever this weekend. There is more we can do with technology, and more we can do on our own without "oversight" and "return and report." I look forward to seeing what happens (and I admit I could be wrong and may be totally disappointed).

[ksfisher]

8 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

funds are laying wasted

That's interesting that you are equating money saved with money wasted.  I certainly don't consider money that I have in my savings account as wasted.  The non-profit that I work for does not consider the money in it's reserve fund as wasted either. 

[Calm]

9 minutes ago, Boanerges said:

The church as not yet experienced the virus in great numbers,

How do you know this?

[Boanerges]

21 minutes ago, Calm said:

How do you know this?

Actually I don't, it's based some data and assumptions. As near as I can tell at the moment there are just over a 1,000 cases and 7 deaths in Utah. There are about 3.2 million people in Utah, about 63% of which are church members. Even if all 1,000+ cases in Utah were members, that's .03% of the Utah population, hardly a great number, especially if we believe the total number of deaths in the US will be in the 100,000-200,000 range. Utah's share of that 100,000-200,000 (if divided equally among all states, which in reality will likely not be the case based on the New York epicenter) would be over 3,000 deaths. Of course, the church does not report statistics of deaths like this either in Utah or anywhere else and I don't expect them to. It just doesn't appear as though it's really hit us as members yet - but it's far from over.

FWIW, I live in NY (not the city) and have relatives in Utah. I also do have a member friend (not in NY or UT) whose adult child has been diagnosed. I should also note that I believe the church has decided to stop reporting missionary cases, and that belief is based on this statement (found here Newsroom):

Quote

As of March 30, 2020, two missionaries are known to have contracted COVID-19. Moving forward, the Church will rely on public health agencies and individuals to make these notifications.

I think it's a reasonable assumption that the virus will strike Utahns and church members in general at about the same rate as the rest of the population - and that could admittedly vary by region.

[Damien the Leper]

There's a local pastor who encourages his congregants, even those without jobs, to continue to pay a full tithe. To which I say, "Hey, moron! Stop being a greedy piece of crap and maybe put some of the tithes and offerings into relief for your own parishioners!" Organizations and people like this guy don't deserve to be in the religion/faith community.

[Teancum]

16 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

The LDS Church will come out of this (as will many other organizations) far more digitally sophisticated.  The software was already available.  We are simply being forced to use it systematically and en masse.

The priesthood will now be far more able to do things which were once restricted to those few called upon to preside over and pass the Sacrament of the Lord's Supper.  Doing it at home makes if far more personal and compelling.

The entire missionary effort will be reevaluated and perhaps redefined.  This may be a huge change, and Pres Nelson may even have something to say at Conference to all those who were recently called and then suddenly had their missions interrupted.  A great opportunity to improve on something which may have gotten stuck in a rut.

Yes, everyone will be back when this is all over, and there will be smiles all around to see those whom we love, respect, and care about.

For those whose livelihoods and income has effectively been destroyed, there will need to be a communal effort to take care of them in the interim.  Unemployment will be a huge problem.  It will take years to get ourselves out of the coming Depression, but we Mormons have always been equal to that task.  I never thought we could ever have it as tough as the Pioneers, but it may come to that.  We will likely be growing food to eat in our yards, if we have them.  Children and grandchildren may have to come home to live with their parents for awhile.  People are going to lose their homes.  We are going to be humbled.

Some of those who were so critical of the Church saving up big time for a rainy day, may now think better of their shallow comments.

I am a bit more optimistic than you but we are in for a rough ride no doubt. I hope the Church buts that $100 billion plus to good work.

 

[Teancum]

6 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Keeping a substantial reserve fund to meet future needs is not an invalid “accrual of wealth.” And yes, those remarks were indeed shallow, as can be clearly seen now by any reasonably minded individual. 

I think reasonable people can disagree as to the amount of the need for a reserve fund.  By most measurement $100 billion plus for a church seems excessive.  So let's see what the church does now.  Will the leadership use some of those funds, or even the income from those funds, to relieve suffering, etc.

[Teancum]

21 minutes ago, Valentinus said:

There's a local pastor who encourages his congregants, even those without jobs, to continue to pay a full tithe. To which I say, "Hey, moron! Stop being a greedy piece of crap and maybe put some of the tithes and offerings into relief for your own parishioners!" Organizations and people like this guy don't deserve to be in the religion/faith community.

And I am sure the LDS Church is saying the same thing.

[Stargazer]

I was going to submit this as its own topic, but this thread seems to be the appropriate place instead...

A Deseret News article by Tad Walch comparing the current pandemic to the 1918 Spanish Flu epidemic.

The story of the Restoration is overcoming

A wildly contagious flu with no vaccine in sight. Missionaries called home. Temples closed. General conference altered. Members asked to practice social distancing and preventive hygiene. A government edict to shut down all meetings of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

The year was 1918.

“You look at the Spanish flu and what it does to the church at that time and it’s the closest analog to the present situation,” said Richard Turley, former assistant church historian and author of the new book “Joseph Smith: Teenage Prophet.”

In some ways, it was worse.

Death notices of Latter-day Saint soldiers filled several pages of the Improvement Era every month that fall. The church magazine also carried vivid stories of World War I.

Those features soon were joined by the first list of missionaries killed by the Spanish flu in November and December, published in the January 1919 issue. More followed in the next month’s edition.

Turley and other historians say church history brims with parallels to the COVID-19 pandemic. …

Read the rest of my story here.

[Damien the Leper]

11 minutes ago, Teancum said:

And I am sure the LDS Church is saying the same thing.

I would hope they wouldn't be dumb enough to do so.

[Teancum]

Just now, Valentinus said:

I would hope they wouldn't be dumb enough to do so.

There is no way they will not tell people to stop paying tithing. and I bet there is a conference address this weekend that emphasizes paying tithing.

[Damien the Leper]

4 minutes ago, Teancum said:

There is no way they will not tell people to stop paying tithing. and I bet there is a conference address this weekend that emphasizes paying tithing.

I wouldn't be surprised.