Letter Clarifies Intent of Byu Honor Code Change

[The Nehor]

13 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

The “world” is wicked (outrage); the “world” is persecuted us / infringing on our religious freedoms (persecution); very long prayers ending in very flowery language (virtue signaling)

The world being wicked mostly fills me with resignation and a little bit of quiet "okay, let's do this". There are things I can get outraged about but general wickedness isn't one. Who would I even be outraged at? Satan? I am not being particularly persecuted. I am too much of a cynic to think too much of it in the rare cases it does happen. Even then only a few of the things that I think infringe upon my freedom or qualify as persecution come because of my faith. I do not think I have ever thought anyone was virtuous because of their prayer language.

That is also not the narrative I get in most church meetings. Maybe it is a local thing to harp on about that? We tend to stick to "Come Follow Me". When I teach I want people to open up about the problems they are facing and give them some spiritual support against them. Who has time to go on endlessly about world conditions? I am speaking in sacrament meeting on Sunday. Should I try to incite outrage? I am probably not very good at it. I tend to incite more in the way of laughter and shoot for sincerity.

[Sunslight]

4 hours ago, Duncan said:

I don't know where you get the confidence to say that. Cue polygamy, today if someone said that God told them or the Holy Ghost to practice they'd be exed, 130 years ago it was different

I get the confidence in the fact that it's what every single one of our prophets teach. And, it has the stamp of approval from God.

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

The “world” is wicked (outrage); the “world” is persecuted us / infringing on our religious freedoms (persecution); very long prayers ending in very flowery language (virtue signaling)

This strikes me as caricature. Do these things happen in our ward meetings from time to time? Sure. Are they routine? Not in my experience. 

[Calm]

2 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

The “world” is wicked (outrage); the “world” is persecuted us / infringing on our religious freedoms (persecution); very long prayers ending in very flowery language (virtue signaling)

I like my ward better.

[Meadowchik]

12 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

No one gets a free pass.

Pre-Christian Melanesian societies organised and constructed sex and sexuality in ways that most people on this board would find abhorrent. No doubt, these people assumed their ways of being and doing were normal and natural and were therefore going with them into the afterlife. The Christian God, however, says no.

In exact parallel, 21st-century Western societies currently organise and construct sex and sexuality in specific culturally bound ways. And like your earlier Melanesian brothers and sisters, you assume that your ways of being and doing are just explanations of reality instead of social constructs tied to a particular historical moment. Being therefore normal and natural, they must be going into the afterlife with you.

But on this point the Christian God again says no.

Yes, no one does. And the fruits of the spirit, the definition of the love of Christ, and free will are fairly well-defined in Christianity. All of which can be complied with by people in homosexual relationships. And they can be blessed in those relationships which can be salvific for them just as heterosexual marriage can be salvific for heterosexuals now.

The LDS beliefs deny that God works for the good of people through homosexual relationships, and those beliefs therefore deny the fruits of the spirit and love and choice when they are exercised in gay relationships. The LDS position denies the power of Christ edifying homosexual relationships. And that, imo, is why the church will continue to experience conflict over its position.

 

Edited March 7, 2020 by Meadowchik

[Meadowchik]

 

9 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I suspect by this they mean the mostly historically correct revision in the understanding of scripture where homosexual relationships are condemned in the Bible. Most of the Old Testament strictures refer to boy molesting. Some of the New Testament though I believe one is more about male prostitutes. The arguments tend to be from silence as far as the scriptures go that if that is the actual intent then there is no scriptural prohibition. LDS-specific scripture is silent on same sex relationships.

You can try to draw a prohibition from the story of destruction where Lot's neighbors demand to rape Lot's visitors. Some argue that we put in a euphemism there and that they were seeking to know them in a non-sexual sense (i.e. some kind of interrogation) and the sin was inhospitality. I agree to a point but inhospitality had a different meaning and so did sex in general. The story can rightly be used to condemn rape but I hope no one is arguing seriously that that should be legal.

The Old Testament is oddly silent on actual homosexual acts other then those. Some have tried to read them into Noah's nakedness story but that is pretty much it. Considering the Old Testament was eager to tell "dirty" stories about its enemies and may have even made them up it seems odd that no one uses it as an insult. When the Torah tells the birth of two despised nations they are attributed to Lot and his daughters committing incest. I doubt that story is true. It is basically a slur against the whole nation. So why no attempts to paint other characters as sodomists? They probably considered it a sin but how bad of a sin was it? Was the prohibition a general commandment of God or specific to the Chosen people of the time?

 

Of course LDS do not rely on that. The apostles have spoken on the issue and it will not change unless they say otherwise. We have our marching orders for now. Further revelation could change things possibly in ways that would astound people on both sides of the current discussion. It is also possible western culture and society may go off in some incredibly unexpected direction as it usually does every generation or so as it always seems to and the increased level of worldwide communication seems to have accelerated the process.

C.S. Lewis said it very well when he talked about why we should read books from previous ages:

"Nothing strikes me more when I read the controversies of past ages than the fact that both sides were usually assuming without question a good deal which we should now absolutely deny. They thought that they were as completely opposed as two sides could be, but in fact they were all the time secretly united—united with each other and against earlier and later ages—by a great mass of common assumptions. We may be sure that the characteristic blindness of the twentieth century—the blindness about which posterity will ask, “But how could they have thought that?”—lies where we have never suspected it, and concerns something about which there is untroubled agreement between Hitler and President Roosevelt or between Mr. H. G. Wells and Karl Barth. None of us can fully escape this blindness, but we shall certainly increase it, and weaken our guard against it, if we read only modern books."

In the mean time I do not think God will reveal anything to apostles because of protests or, if God does, the protestors are unlikely to be winning divine favor. I suggest the "end run" President Packer told everyone about around the entire Church structure: Prayer. If enough people are seeking revelation and enlightenment on how best to bless and help everyone regarding this matter I suspect it will come whether it aligns with our personal desires or not. I am convinced that was what brought the 1978 revelation.

Yes, but by affirmation I mean the Christian framework of the fruits of the spirit and free will, and the character of charity, the pure love of Christ.

Edited March 7, 2020 by Meadowchik

[Duncan]

5 hours ago, Sunslight said:

I get the confidence in the fact that it's what every single one of our prophets teach. And, it has the stamp of approval from God.

Taught what precisely? do you believe that the prophets know absolutely everything about the Holy Ghost and who and in what manner he has ministered to mortal man? and polygamy? missed it though by that much!

Edited March 7, 2020 by Duncan

[Sunslight]

4 hours ago, Duncan said:

Taught what precisely? do you believe that the prophets know absolutely everything about the Holy Ghost and who and in what manner he has ministered to mortal man? and polygamy? missed it though by that much!

This isn't a discussion about polygamy. You can't justify every sin just because you believe man may have been wrong in one instance so therefore he must always be wrong.

[Tacenda]

10 hours ago, The Nehor said:

The world being wicked mostly fills me with resignation and a little bit of quiet "okay, let's do this". There are things I can get outraged about but general wickedness isn't one. Who would I even be outraged at? Satan? I am not being particularly persecuted. I am too much of a cynic to think too much of it in the rare cases it does happen. Even then only a few of the things that I think infringe upon my freedom or qualify as persecution come because of my faith. I do not think I have ever thought anyone was virtuous because of their prayer language.

That is also not the narrative I get in most church meetings. Maybe it is a local thing to harp on about that? We tend to stick to "Come Follow Me". When I teach I want people to open up about the problems they are facing and give them some spiritual support against them. Who has time to go on endlessly about world conditions? I am speaking in sacrament meeting on Sunday. Should I try to incite outrage? I am probably not very good at it. I tend to incite more in the way of laughter and shoot for sincerity.

Those were the talks I enjoyed, the laughter and sincerity. Wish I could be there, haha!

[Duncan]

1 hour ago, Sunslight said:

This isn't a discussion about polygamy. You can't justify every sin just because you believe man may have been wrong in one instance so therefore he must always be wrong.

and I am supposed to believe that you know every prophet's teachings, correct that is, about the Holy Ghost and what is more that you are personally aware of every single time the Holy Ghost has manifested itself to people, true or not, since the restoration began so much so that you can with "confidence" say what is from the Holy Ghost or not? I am truly dumbstruck

[Sunslight]

1 minute ago, Duncan said:

and I am supposed to believe that you know every prophet's teachings, correct that is, about the Holy Ghost and what is more that you are personally aware of every single time the Holy Ghost has manifested itself to people, true or not, since the restoration began so much so that you can with "confidence" say what is from the Holy Ghost or not? I am truly dumbstruck

You have no argument. One can't argue from ignorance.

[Duncan]

12 minutes ago, Sunslight said:

You have no argument. One can't argue from ignorance.

well you're trying! BYU made their bed now they have to lie in it, the students didn't change anything, BYU did

 

Edited March 7, 2020 by Duncan

[Teancum]

On 3/5/2020 at 10:42 AM, bluebell said:

I'm trying, I really am, but I don't understand most of these reactions to the news.  I can understand disappointment, even severe disappointment, but I don't understand "when I thought BYU was going to let me date SS partners I believed they cared about me, but now that they say SS dating is against the spirit of the honor code, I know they don't.  I'm now so afraid when I wasn't a month ago when I knew the honor code didn't allow it."

All this angst and feelings of betrayal and fear seem so incredibly over the top compared to what actually has happened.  Can someone explain it in a way that maybe I'll be able to understand?

Perhaps you should ask someone like the person quoted help you understand.

 

[smac97]

On 3/5/2020 at 8:42 AM, bluebell said:

I'm trying, I really am, but I don't understand most of these reactions to the news.  I can understand disappointment, even severe disappointment, but I don't understand "when I thought BYU was going to let me date SS partners I believed they cared about me, but now that they say SS dating is against the spirit of the honor code, I know they don't.  I'm now so afraid when I wasn't a month ago when I knew the honor code didn't allow it."

All this angst and feelings of betrayal and fear seem so incredibly over the top compared to what actually has happened.  Can someone explain it in a way that maybe I'll be able to understand?

Emotional manipulation. Melodrama. Public shaming. Coercion.  

Meanwhile, there is a corollary lack of reasoning, maturity, decorum, and seeking to discern and follow the will of God.

Edited March 7, 2020 by smac97

[bluebell]

38 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Emotional manipulation. Melodrama. Public shaming. Coercion.  

Meanwhile, there is a corollary lack of reasoning, maturity, decorum, and seeking to discern and follow the will of God.

Working to understand where these people are coming from rather than assigning them motives from my perspective (something that I felt led to do by the spirit) has been a really interesting and changing experience for me.  

We all are immature at seeking to discern and follow the will of God sometimes, especially when emotion is involved.  I’m reminded of King Benjamin’s “are we not all beggars” sermon in the BOM.  

Edited March 7, 2020 by bluebell

[Meadowchik]

On 3/5/2020 at 3:42 PM, bluebell said:

I'm trying, I really am, but I don't understand most of these reactions to the news.  I can understand disappointment, even severe disappointment, but I don't understand "when I thought BYU was going to let me date SS partners I believed they cared about me, but now that they say SS dating is against the spirit of the honor code, I know they don't.  I'm now so afraid when I wasn't a month ago when I knew the honor code didn't allow it."

All this angst and feelings of betrayal and fear seem so incredibly over the top compared to what actually has happened.  Can someone explain it in a way that maybe I'll be able to understand?

I can speak about how the pain one feels can be directly proportional to the trust given:

With all that is asked of us when we grow up LDS, once I had been giving the best I could for many years, it felt like I was experiencing a close spiritual relationship with church leaders. I remember my first semester at BYU listening to Vaughn J Featherstone speak at a devotional, catching a glimpse of President Hinckley during the ensuing years, and feeling in those times with great intensity a friendship with them, that even though they might not have met me, I remember believing they know what I need or were at least trying to know and woukd be guided by the Spirit in that. 

So when I had strong spiritual convictions that church leaders deliberately acted against, it felt like a betrayal.

[Tacenda]

Here's Steve Young's response: 

https://kslsports.com/429910/cougar-legend-steve-young-tweets-support-of-lgbtq-students-at-byu/?fbclid=IwAR3JOnkSzlYWqxXYbVlX59gQKROtpIFekTiRvsMlgVfqFGd8XEZ8Ew2gPfM

[hope_for_things]

15 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I’m not accountable for others’ past misdeeds and poor choices. I’m telling you what works for me, and that is the revealed word of God confirmed you me through personal revelation. 
 

And people who disbelieve in God and reject His revealed word have made horrible choices too — tons of them. 

All of us, Steve Young included have to act with imperfect knowledge by definition.  Some knowledge is much better reasoned, researched, and closer to the divine will.  That ultimately is a judgement each of us has to make.  

If you are claiming you know God’s will, have access to a pure understanding of what God wants on this or any other topic, I would say that you are not only making claims unsupported by Mormon theology, but that you’re also delusional.  

[rockpond]

Article on yesterday's protest outside the church office building:  https://www.sltrib.com/news/2020/03/06/rally-by-lgbtq-students/

Another protest is planned today at the Manhattan Temple.

[Jeanne]

Like all clarifications...in handbook,in any kind of revelation/policy....this is sad..more damage and big mess.

[smac97]

4 hours ago, bluebell said:

Working to understand where these people are coming from rather than assigning them motives from my perspective (something that I felt led to do by the spirit) has been a really interesting and changing experience for me.  

We all are immature at seeking to discern and follow the will of God sometimes, especially when emotion is involved.  I’m reminded of King Benjamin’s “are we not all beggars” sermon in the BOM.  

"Working to understand where these people are coming from" is essentially synonymous with "assigning them motives."

-Smac

[Calm]

32 minutes ago, smac97 said:

"Working to understand where these people are coming from" is essentially synonymous with "assigning them motives."

-Smac

There are the reasons they are choosing to act (feelings, beliefs) and how they choose to go about meeting the goals those reasons give them...that latter would be manipulation, etc. Focusing on the latter results in superficial understanding at best, imo. 

added:  and as bluebell points out so well, 'you' telling us their motives is not the same as letting them speak for themselves (example:  check out how richyoungruler is describing our beliefs and motivations...lacks accuracy, insight, understanding)

Edited March 7, 2020 by Calm

[bluebell]

18 minutes ago, smac97 said:

"Working to understand where these people are coming from" is essentially synonymous with "assigning them motives."

-Smac

How so?

I’m trying to find out, from them, what their motives are. How is that “essentially synonymous” with assigning them motives?
 

 

Edited March 7, 2020 by bluebell

[Scott Lloyd]

5 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

All of us, Steve Young included have to act with imperfect knowledge by definition.  Some knowledge is much better reasoned, researched, and closer to the divine will.  That ultimately is a judgement each of us has to make.  

If you are claiming you know God’s will, have access to a pure understanding of what God wants on this or any other topic, I would say that you are not only making claims unsupported by Mormon theology, but that you’re also delusional.  

I’m claiming to have come to understand God’s will regarding me and my needs, potential, challenges, personal shortcomings. That’s reasonable within the paradigm of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. 
 

 Please stop putting words in my mouth and then insulting me based on a straw man you yourself created. I know you’re angry over how events unfolded this week, but it’s rude and it’s a cheap shot. 

Edited March 8, 2020 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

4 hours ago, Jeanne said:

Like all clarifications...in handbook,in any kind of revelation/policy....this is sad..more damage and big mess.

Why do you claim that “all” clarifications result in “more damage” and “a big mess”? That strikes me as over-the-top cynicism.