MiserereNobis Posted March 6, 2020 Posted March 6, 2020 A question for @smac97 and @Meadowchik. What do you mean by the "Plan of Salvation"? I was taking it to mean full exaltation, which doesn't seem possible for gays from my understanding, since they can't get married and marriage is a requirement. Am I missing something here? Or is the idea that they will no longer be gay so they can marry someone of the opposite sex which will then allow them to be exalted. I'm just hoping for some clarification because I think I need more info in order to understand the arguments. Thanks!
smac97 Posted March 6, 2020 Posted March 6, 2020 Just now, MiserereNobis said: A question for @smac97 and @Meadowchik. What do you mean by the "Plan of Salvation"? Essentially, this. See also here, here, and here (variations on a theme). Just now, MiserereNobis said: I was taking it to mean full exaltation, which doesn't seem possible for gays from my understanding, since they can't get married and marriage is a requirement. No, the Plan of Salvation is what has been presented for everyone who has ever come to this earth, without exception. The Church is actually fairly universalist, since virtually everyone will be "saved" in a kingdom of glory. Exaltation requires marriage, yes. It is, or will be, available to anyone who chooses to seek it. Just now, MiserereNobis said: Am I missing something here? Or is the idea that they will no longer be gay so they can marry someone of the opposite sex which will then allow them to be exalted. I think you are perhaps overlaying a form of presentism onto our beliefs. I reject sexual orientation/desire as a state of being. Ipso facto, I reject the notion of such a categorical exclusion of persons from exaltation. Such exclusion is incompatible with what we believe and teach. The Plan of Salvation is literally for everyone who has been, or ever will be, born on the earth. Thanks, -Smac 2
Duncan Posted March 6, 2020 Posted March 6, 2020 (edited) My Mom had an older male cousin who was gay, he died in 1979. I don't know but I highly doubt he would have ever come out of the closet, especially in a rural Canadian farming community where he lived. She had his work done years ago now and now I wonder what is happening with him, is he undergoing some sort of radical sexual transformation? I couldn't imagine him dying and going to the other side and someone telling him, "oh by the way...." If I were him i'd be upset, like, you made me this way to start with and now you want to change me to something I never was in the first place? How do I know I want that? Why would you do that? For what purpose is homosexuality here if it's just going to change in the next life? Was I a screw up somehow? if there was a sign up sheet to "God explaining homosexuality and transgenderism" i'd sign up! Edited March 6, 2020 by Duncan 2
hope_for_things Posted March 6, 2020 Posted March 6, 2020 I'm not really participating in this thread anymore as its just been too hard emotionally for me the past few days. But I did want to put this out there. Thanks to Steve Young for his continued support. https://twitter.com/SteveYoungQB/status/1235836850670940160/photo/1 SteveYoung.jfif
Calm Posted March 6, 2020 Posted March 6, 2020 1 hour ago, smac97 said: They have in-born desires, and then thought for a while that the Honor Code had changed such as to allow expression of those desires And not only the honor code changed, but by implication and the part of the Handbook many were being told to look at the Church standards also....because BYU would insist on church standards in their view, which view is correct apparently.
Calm Posted March 6, 2020 Posted March 6, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, Meadowchik said: Will there be homosexuals in the eternities People in the Celestial Kingdom, in the Terrestrial most likely, and in Telestial I am guessing will not be experiencing those feelings and perspectives imo, but I am opened to as not knowing how much of the natural man must be put aside in order to be sinless enough for any glory of God. By the same rule, there will be no heterosexuals either in the eternities. Think of what being heterosexual does for us in allowing us to be attracted sexually to multiple people, whether we are married to them or not...what use would that be for Celestial beings? Would it not be imperfection to be sexually attracted to/even just mildly aroused by someone other than our spouse? It is not logical that the part of us that opens up sexual interest to even total strangers based on appearance (more natural man surely given sexual fluidity among many other attributes of sexuality) will not be set aside once it is no longer needed for our test of mortality. Edited March 6, 2020 by Calm 2
Duncan Posted March 6, 2020 Posted March 6, 2020 25 minutes ago, Calm said: Not in the Celestial Kingdom, not in the Terrestrial most likely, and not in Telestial either I am guessing, but opened to as not knowing how much of the natural man must be put aside in order to be sinless enough for any glory of God. By the same rule, there will be no heterosexuals either in the eternities. Think of what being heterosexual does for us in allowing us to be attracted sexually to multiple people, whether we are married to them or not...what use would that be for Celestial beings? Would it not be imperfection to be sexually attracted to/even just mildly aroused by someone other than our spouse? It is not logical that the part of us that opens up sexual interest to even total strangers based on appearance (more natural man surely given sexual fluidity among many other attributes of sexuality) will not be set aside once it is no longer needed for our test of mortality. There has to be heterosexuality there otherwise we wouldn't be here on mortality
california boy Posted March 6, 2020 Posted March 6, 2020 2 hours ago, smac97 said: Sounds good. CB's claim is simply false. Factually false. It is an emotion-based assertion, not an argument, and not one that is rational or reasoned or based on evidence. -Smac Can a person be celibate and still obtain the highest degree of happiness in the Celestial Kingdom?
Calm Posted March 6, 2020 Posted March 6, 2020 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Duncan said: There has to be heterosexuality there otherwise we wouldn't be here on mortality Why? We will already be married when we are resurrected. Sexual attraction to our spouse (assuming we are sexually attracted, which isn't a given imo) does not require us to be sexually attracted to all or a significant part or even just one other member of their sex. Edited March 6, 2020 by Calm 2
smac97 Posted March 6, 2020 Posted March 6, 2020 Just now, california boy said: Quote Sounds good. CB's claim is simply false. Factually false. It is an emotion-based assertion, not an argument, and not one that is rational or reasoned or based on evidence. Can a person be celibate and still obtain the highest degree of happiness in the Celestial Kingdom? Again, I think there is a lack of good faith here, so I'll decline to enter into a discussion on this point. I will continue to object to your false statements about us and what we believe, though. Thanks, -Smac
MustardSeed Posted March 6, 2020 Posted March 6, 2020 1 hour ago, hope_for_things said: I'm not really participating in this thread anymore as its just been too hard emotionally for me the past few days. But I did want to put this out there. Thanks to Steve Young for his continued support. https://twitter.com/SteveYoungQB/status/1235836850670940160/photo/1 SteveYoung.jfif 49.66 kB · 3 downloads I don’t typically care for celeb endorsements but this one feels significant, IMO, because he’s such an LDS hero. (Sorry chaps, I’m not going to type it all out. ) 2
Calm Posted March 6, 2020 Posted March 6, 2020 (edited) 4 minutes ago, california boy said: Can a person be celibate and still obtain the highest degree of happiness in the Celestial Kingdom? Celibate in the eternities do you mean? Current understanding suggests no, but exactly how do physical bodies use sex to create spirit bodies? Depends imo on what spiritual reproduction is actually like for perfect beings. Maybe we have the power to organize life without sex. I don't think we should assume anything about the mechanics at this point. Edited March 6, 2020 by Calm 1
Calm Posted March 6, 2020 Posted March 6, 2020 1 hour ago, Duncan said: If I were him i'd be upset, like, you made me this way to start with and now you want to change me to something I never was in the first place? How do I know I want that? Why would you do that? Do you think we should be upset that God is planning on changing any part of us that is currently imperfect?
Duncan Posted March 6, 2020 Posted March 6, 2020 35 minutes ago, Calm said: Why? We will already be married when we are resurrected. Sexual attraction to our spouse (assuming we are sexually attracted, which isn't a given imo) does not require us to be sexually attracted to all or a significant part or even just one other member of their sex. isn't God the father and Mother the father and mother for a reason? because he is the father and mother our of spirits?
hope_for_things Posted March 6, 2020 Posted March 6, 2020 1 hour ago, Duncan said: My Mom had an older male cousin who was gay, he died in 1979. I don't know but I highly doubt he would have ever come out of the closet, especially in a rural Canadian farming community where he lived. She had his work done years ago now and now I wonder what is happening with him, is he undergoing some sort of radical sexual transformation? I couldn't imagine him dying and going to the other side and someone telling him, "oh by the way...." If I were him i'd be upset, like, you made me this way to start with and now you want to change me to something I never was in the first place? How do I know I want that? Why would you do that? For what purpose is homosexuality here if it's just going to change in the next life? Was I a screw up somehow? if there was a sign up sheet to "God explaining homosexuality and transgenderism" i'd sign up! Learning how people experience life and accepting them as legitimate has always been a challenge for humans. We are biased towards our own perspective and we think we understand others better than we really do. I have a testimony that God created everyone the way they are, and that each individual has a purpose and can contribute greatly to society. I believe that LGBTQ individuals aren't broken, any more than you are I are broken. I don't believe their sexual or gender identities need to be fixed in the next life. They will continue to be the same loving, beautiful, and important parts of Gods creation that they are here in mortality. The more I'm around these people, the more my testimony is strengthened as I learn so much about such a caring group of individuals. They have blessed my life, and I'm so grateful for them. If this is a choice between aligning my values with what some church authority figure has ignorantly said in the past and choosing to love, accept, and embrace my LGBTQ brothers and sisters, then this choice is a no brainer. I love, I embrace, I learn and grow and support and value. I don't care what someone else has said when it comes from a place of ignorance, fear and hate. I care what the spirit speaks to me personally as I walk with my brothers and sisters. BTW, "transgenderism" is a term that people who identify as trans find demeaning, just speaking from experience in case you weren't aware. Best of luck on your journey, it seems like from reading some of your posts that you are definitely a thoughtful person and that you're wrestling with some really important things. That is a very good sign about your character, that you care so much. 2
Duncan Posted March 6, 2020 Posted March 6, 2020 29 minutes ago, Calm said: Do you think we should be upset that God is planning on changing any part of us that is currently imperfect? that assumes that sexuality is imperfect, which is why exactly?
Duncan Posted March 6, 2020 Posted March 6, 2020 2 minutes ago, hope_for_things said: Learning how people experience life and accepting them as legitimate has always been a challenge for humans. We are biased towards our own perspective and we think we understand others better than we really do. I have a testimony that God created everyone the way they are, and that each individual has a purpose and can contribute greatly to society. I believe that LGBTQ individuals aren't broken, any more than you are I are broken. I don't believe their sexual or gender identities need to be fixed in the next life. They will continue to be the same loving, beautiful, and important parts of Gods creation that they are here in mortality. The more I'm around these people, the more my testimony is strengthened as I learn so much about such a caring group of individuals. They have blessed my life, and I'm so grateful for them. If this is a choice between aligning my values with what some church authority figure has ignorantly said in the past and choosing to love, accept, and embrace my LGBTQ brothers and sisters, then this choice is a no brainer. I love, I embrace, I learn and grow and support and value. I don't care what someone else has said when it comes from a place of ignorance, fear and hate. I care what the spirit speaks to me personally as I walk with my brothers and sisters. BTW, "transgenderism" is a term that people who identify as trans find demeaning, just speaking from experience in case you weren't aware. Best of luck on your journey, it seems like from reading some of your posts that you are definitely a thoughtful person and that you're wrestling with some really important things. That is a very good sign about your character, that you care so much. oh thank you❤️ 1
smac97 Posted March 6, 2020 Posted March 6, 2020 A protest is planned for today at 3:00 p.m. on the northeast corner of the church’s main plaza in downtown Salt Lake City: Quote LGBTQ students at Brigham Young University and their allies are taking their concerns about the school’s changing position on “romantic behavior” by same-sex couples to the Salt Lake City headquarters of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. At 3 p.m. Friday, they will gather on the northeast corner of the church’s main plaza in downtown Salt Lake City to protest the school’s reaffirmation Wednesday that same-sex relationships were still “not compatible” with the school’s Honor Code — despite removing the code’s ban on “homosexual behavior” last month. The theme of Friday’s event is “Just Let Us Love One Another.” The goal, according to one of the organizers, AnnElise Guerisoli, is “to create a space to vocalize the thoughts and feelings of many of our active, believing and nonbelieving, LGBTQ+ community.” ... Demonstrators plan to circle the church office building on the sidewalk, followed by speeches and rally in City Creek Plaza across the street at 4 p.m., then resume marching at 4:30 p.m. Hmm. I hope they behave themselves. And I hope they don't trespass. Thanks, -Smac 1
Calm Posted March 6, 2020 Posted March 6, 2020 (edited) 59 minutes ago, Duncan said: isn't God the father and Mother the father and mother for a reason? because he is the father and mother our of spirits? But why would the Father need to be attracted to other women and the Mother attracted to other men in order to reproduce spirits? Perhaps ultimate sexual maturity/development is the sole attraction to one's spouse regardless of physical attributes. What if what we find physically stimulating is how our spouse talks about creation, how our spouse expresses love to us, how we share our tasks, how they sing to us? Not the fact they have a certain set of genitals or their appearance implies this. Edited March 6, 2020 by Calm 1
Calm Posted March 6, 2020 Posted March 6, 2020 44 minutes ago, Duncan said: that assumes that sexuality is imperfect, which is why exactly? Not necessarily sexuality, but rather attraction to anyone not our spouses. After all sexual attraction to a sex (male, female, or any variations there might be if one believes that will exist) is unnecessary in the eternities with the need to search for a mate over and done with. Windowshopping for sexual mates would be sinful if already married would it not? And once married, the marriage will not cease for all eternity. So no need to have the shopping instinct stick around in case of death or divorce.
Calm Posted March 6, 2020 Posted March 6, 2020 Quote BTW, "transgenderism" is a term that people who identify as trans find demeaning, just speaking from experience in case you weren't aware. What is the preferred form since it appears "trans" is acceptable. 1
Duncan Posted March 6, 2020 Posted March 6, 2020 6 minutes ago, Calm said: But why would the Father need to be attracted to other women and the Mother attracted to other men for that reason? why would they be? I don't know that either would be attracted to other people? they chose each other and are assumingly having spirit children to place in mortality-however that all works
Meadowchik Posted March 6, 2020 Posted March 6, 2020 1 hour ago, smac97 said: Again, I think there is a lack of good faith here, so I'll decline to enter into a discussion on this point. No, I think you're failing to listen to someone who by any reasonable estimation has thought about this more than you and who is effected more by the issue than you. 1
Duncan Posted March 6, 2020 Posted March 6, 2020 5 minutes ago, Calm said: Not necessarily sexuality, but rather attraction to anyone not our spouses. After all sexual attraction to a sex (male, female, or any variations there might be if one believes that will exist) is unnecessary in the eternities with the need to search for a mate over and done with. Windowshopping for sexual mates would be sinful if already married would it not? And once married, the marriage will not cease for all eternity. So no need to have the shopping instinct stick around in case of death or divorce. well, sexuality but you choose someone to mate with It's doctrine that God and Mother are still having spirit children somehow, somehow we are their spirit offspring with divine characteristics it would be sinful here but God and Mother have overcome all that and I don't know if they hang around other Heavenly parents to even be attracted to
Scott Lloyd Posted March 6, 2020 Author Posted March 6, 2020 1 hour ago, MustardSeed said: I don’t typically care for celeb endorsements but this one feels significant, IMO, because he’s such an LDS hero. (Sorry chaps, I’m not going to type it all out. ) What is there to type out? All I see is a single short sentence declaring his support for the LGBTQ+ students of BYU. Am I missing something?
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