Duncan Posted February 17, 2020 Posted February 17, 2020 Why could we not not pay for our own sins and weaknesses and whatnot? Why did it take Jesus Christ to do that?
Hamba Tuhan Posted February 17, 2020 Posted February 17, 2020 Just now, Duncan said: Why could we not not pay for our own sins and weaknesses and whatnot? Why did it take Jesus Christ to do that? Have you ever tried?
SeekerB Posted February 17, 2020 Posted February 17, 2020 What type of payment would you need to make? Who would decide when the payment is sufficient? 1
Robert F. Smith Posted February 17, 2020 Posted February 17, 2020 Requires a perfect, sinless sacrifice. Are you thinking of purgatory in which to be purged of your sins?
Popular Post bluebell Posted February 17, 2020 Popular Post Posted February 17, 2020 35 minutes ago, Duncan said: Why could we not not pay for our own sins and weaknesses and whatnot? Why did it take Jesus Christ to do that? If we don't follow Him and repent, we'll get the chance. "But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink." But in the end, even though some will pay for their own sins, it is still only the Atonement of Christ that will grant them a degree of glory (if they qualify for one). We cannot overcome the fall on our own even to the smallest degree. Once fallen, we have no power to bring ourselves back into the presence of God to be judged, for example, without the Atonement. Neither could we resurrect ourselves. And both are necessary to receive any degree of salvation. 6
Duncan Posted February 17, 2020 Author Posted February 17, 2020 50 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: Requires a perfect, sinless sacrifice. Are you thinking of purgatory in which to be purged of your sins? We were talking about the Atonement earlier in the day and the teacher said that we couldn't pay for our sins and I wonder why not? 1
Duncan Posted February 17, 2020 Author Posted February 17, 2020 1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said: Have you ever tried? no, but i've had American Coca Cola if that helps🥴
echelon Posted February 17, 2020 Posted February 17, 2020 Whether by design or by some natural law, it seems that justice would not be satisfied, no matter how much repentance we do for even the least degree of sin. Personally I think it's by design. God the Father plans for us to be subject to Jesus Christ so he cranked up the price of sin in order for us to have no choice but be indebted to Jesus. It's hard to believe that even unborn children who didn't even seem to have the chance to sin also need Christ. 22 For behold that all little children are alive in Christ, and also all they that are without the law. For the power of redemption cometh on all them that have no law; wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, cannot repent; and unto such baptism availeth nothing (Moroni
Hamba Tuhan Posted February 17, 2020 Posted February 17, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, Duncan said: no, but i've had American Coca Cola if that helps🥴 I have zero clue how that relates to your question, but my question was serious. Have you ever tried to pay for your own sins? Hint: it doesn't work. We simply do not possess the power necessary to heal ourselves, let alone to heal those we've hurt. This whole process is fuelled by the Atonement. Without Jesus Christ, we couldn't even forgive each other. Which means heaps of people who think they're too clever to believe in Him are still using his Atonement on a regular basis. Edited February 17, 2020 by Hamba Tuhan 2
Robert F. Smith Posted February 17, 2020 Posted February 17, 2020 4 hours ago, Duncan said: We were talking about the Atonement earlier in the day and the teacher said that we couldn't pay for our sins and I wonder why not? The thing about the regular Jewish atonement sacrifices at their temples (they had a number of them anciently), they had to be perfect, without spot. Even the priest who did the offering had to be without any physical defects. Since the people of Israel were always sinning, naturally the sacrifices were offered daily, just to keep up. The whole idea (as expressed in the book of Hebrews) was that only a perfect high priest could make such an offering, and that the offering made had to be perfect -- the Lamb of God. As that great professor of Judaism at UC Berkeley, the late Jacob Milgrom, pointed out, "“it seems strange that the high priest is both expiator and the expiated, that he officiates for his own sin.” Milgrom, Leviticus 1-16, (Anchor Bible), 232 (re Leviticus 4:5). Naturally, Milgrom was speaking of the Jewish HP, but we need only put Jesus in that place and the problem is solved. Only a sinless sacrifice can bring an infinite atonement. We repent on a daily basis, but that never actually expiates all our sins. Justice demands punishment. Jesus took all that punishment by proxy, and we accept that atonement through his grace. Not for anything that we did in the way of satisfying the Law. 1
JLHPROF Posted February 17, 2020 Posted February 17, 2020 Because there's only one penalty for sin. See Adam and Eve.
teddyaware Posted February 17, 2020 Posted February 17, 2020 (edited) 12 hours ago, bluebell said: If we don't follow Him and repent, we'll get the chance. "But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink." But in the end, even though some will pay for their own sins, it is still only the Atonement of Christ that will grant them a degree of glory (if they qualify for one). We cannot overcome the fall on our own even to the smallest degree. Once fallen, we have no power to bring ourselves back into the presence of God to be judged, for example, without the Atonement. Neither could we resurrect ourselves. And both are necessary to receive any degree of salvation. So does this mean the inheritors of the Telestial Kingdom will obtain that degree of glory by satisfying the demands of divine justice through a process of suffering for their own sins, and for this reason they will not need to receive God’s forgiveness because they have already fully satisfied the demands of divine justice by means of their own personal suffering? Edited February 17, 2020 by teddyaware
The Mean Farmer Posted February 17, 2020 Posted February 17, 2020 I believe 'paying' for sins is only part of the issue with redemption. Without Jesus Christ we wouldn't have anyone able to take the place as Savior in The Great Plan. We wouldn't have a Galaxy/Solar System/Planet to become human on. We wouldn't have the ability to rise from the dead with a body. We wouldn't have an advocate with Father We wouldn't have leadership from the source of Light and Truth...ever. Not to mention that we would be spiritually separated from God via our sins. We don't get to take the first steps toward salvation without Jesus. And I think it likely started WAY before the 'War in Heaven' 2
Tacenda Posted February 17, 2020 Posted February 17, 2020 (edited) 15 hours ago, Duncan said: Why could we not not pay for our own sins and weaknesses and whatnot? Why did it take Jesus Christ to do that? Hopefully not going to cause disdain here, but did not BY speak of blood atonement? Or atoning for one's sins? I've often thought this is similar to capital punishment as well. Edited February 17, 2020 by Tacenda
Duncan Posted February 17, 2020 Author Posted February 17, 2020 19 minutes ago, Tacenda said: Hopefully not going to cause disdain here, but did not BY speak of blood atonement? Or atoning for one's sins? I've often thought this is similar to capital punishment as well. search me!
Tacenda Posted February 17, 2020 Posted February 17, 2020 11 minutes ago, Duncan said: search me! Maybe you're talking about something else entirely. Would you mind explaining more? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_atonement In the Salt Lake valley, Young maintained a Council of Fifty composed of religious leaders as a kind of legislature, but this body's power was limited (Quinn 1997, pp. 262–63). In 1849, as Young and the Council of Fifty were drafting a plan for a proposed State of Deseret, Young spoke to the Council about what to do with thieves, murderers, and adulterers, and said, "I want their cursed heads to be cut off that they may atone for their crimes".[38] The Council voted the next day that an imprisoned man "had forfeited his head" and to "dispose of him privately" (March 4 entry). Two weeks later, Young recommended decapitation for the man and a fellow prisoner, but the Council decided to let them live.[39] Later in 1851, the General Assembly of the State of Deseret, picked by the Council of Fifty, adopted a capital punishment provision allowing decapitation as a means of execution, which would remain in force until 1888 (Gardner 1979, p. 13).
bluebell Posted February 17, 2020 Posted February 17, 2020 3 hours ago, teddyaware said: So does this mean the inheritors of the Telestial Kingdom will obtain that degree of glory by satisfying the demands of divine justice through a process of suffering for their own sins, and for this reason they will not need to receive God’s forgiveness because they have already fully satisfied the demands of divine justice by means of their own personal suffering? I don't know if those people have to repent to receive that degree of glory, or if their suffering for their sins makes repentance unnecessary. But, I don't think paying for their own sins will satisfy the demands of justice. They still must rely on the Atonement for the glory that they do receive. And Christ did already pay for their sins when He performed the Atonement.
CV75 Posted February 17, 2020 Posted February 17, 2020 17 hours ago, Duncan said: Why could we not not pay for our own sins and weaknesses and whatnot? Why did it take Jesus Christ to do that? Even if someone could, those who cannot still need a Savior, something such a person would want. But I don't think anyone can come up with the commensurate energy it would require to travel back in time for a righteous do-over for every offense. 2
JAHS Posted February 17, 2020 Posted February 17, 2020 17 hours ago, Duncan said: Why could we not not pay for our own sins and weaknesses and whatnot? Why did it take Jesus Christ to do that? I don't think we can ask why and expect an answer. It is an eternal principle that has existed forever in the past and future. Asking why suggests that someone somewhere for some reason decided to set thing up that way when that is just not so. 1
Robert F. Smith Posted February 17, 2020 Posted February 17, 2020 4 hours ago, teddyaware said: So does this mean the inheritors of the Telestial Kingdom will obtain that degree of glory by satisfying the demands of divine justice through a process of suffering for their own sins, and for this reason they will not need to receive God’s forgiveness because they have already fully satisfied the demands of divine justice by means of their own personal suffering? The Telestial class have been recalcitrant in both this life and in spirit prison. They have refused to accept the free offer of grace in a graceful manner. All the ordinances have been done for them by proxy, and they already have a full record of mortal behavior ("they who have not the Law are a law unto themselves"). It finally comes down to their hearts. This life is a test, a probationary testing ground. Did they respond well to the testing? Did they learn anything? Did they show good or bad qualities? Do they have sorrow and regret for their selfishness? The attitude of most LDS temple sealers seems almost universalist. Most of those on the other side of the veil accept the free offer of our proxy work, and the Plan of Salvation is a success. We hope.
echelon Posted February 17, 2020 Posted February 17, 2020 26 minutes ago, JAHS said: I don't think we can ask why and expect an answer. It is an eternal principle that has existed forever in the past and future. Asking why suggests that someone somewhere for some reason decided to set thing up that way when that is just not so. Natural law has no concept of Justice or Sin. If it is God the Father who demands it of us, then it must be by design.
JAHS Posted February 17, 2020 Posted February 17, 2020 18 minutes ago, echelon said: Natural law has no concept of Justice or Sin. If it is God the Father who demands it of us, then it must be by design. Not necessarily . God is required to obey certain laws also, especially the eternal ones. that have always existed in universes both past and future. "But there is a law given, and a punishment affixed, and a repentance granted; which repentance, mercy claimeth; otherwise, justice claimeth the creature and executeth the claw, and the law inflicteth the punishment; if not so, the works of justice would be destroyed, and God would cease to be God." (Alma 42:22)
bluebell Posted February 17, 2020 Posted February 17, 2020 This is what Bruce C. Hafen said about paying for your own sins: "I once wondered if those who refuse to repent but who then satisfy the law of justice by paying for their own sins are then worthy to enter the celestial kingdom. The answer is no. The entrance requirements for celestial life are simply higher than merely satisfying the law of justices. For that reason, paying for our own sins [our works] will not bear the same fruit as repenting of our sins [receiving the gift of grace offered through the Savior's atonement]. Justice is a law of balance and order and it must be satisfied, either through our payment or His. But if we decline the Savior's invitation to let Him carry our sins, and then satisfy justice by ourselves, we will not yet have experienced the complete rehabilitation that can occur through a combination of divine assistance and genuine repentance. Working together, those forces have the power permanently to change our hearts and our lives. The doctrines of mercy and repentance are rehabilitative, not retributive, in nature. The Savior asks for our repentance not merely to compensate him for paying our debt to justice, but also as a way of inducing us to undergo the process of development that will make our nature divine, giving us the capacity to live the celestial law. The natural man will remain an enemy to God forever--even after paying for his own sins--unless he also "becometh a saint thorugh the Atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child." 4
longview Posted February 17, 2020 Posted February 17, 2020 21 hours ago, Duncan said: Why could we not not pay for our own sins and weaknesses and whatnot? Why did it take Jesus Christ to do that? Alma 34: 9. For it is expedient that an atonement should be made; for according to the great plan of the Eternal God there must be an atonement made, or else all mankind must unavoidably perish; yea, all are hardened; yea, all are fallen and are lost, and must perish except it be through the atonement which it is expedient should be made. 10. For it is expedient that there should be a great and last sacrifice; yea, not a sacrifice of man, neither of beast, neither of any manner of fowl; for it shall not be a human sacrifice; but it must be an infinite and eternal sacrifice. 11. Now there is not any man that can sacrifice his own blood which will atone for the sins of another. Now, if a man murdereth, behold will our law, which is just, take the life of his brother? I say unto you, Nay. 12. But the law requireth the life of him who hath murdered; therefore there can be nothing which is short of an infinite atonement which will suffice for the sins of the world. 13. Therefore, it is expedient that there should be a great and last sacrifice, and then shall there be, or it is expedient there should be, a stop to the shedding of blood; then shall the law of Moses be fulfilled; yea, it shall be all fulfilled, every jot and tittle, and none shall have passed away. 14. And behold, this is the whole meaning of the law (Law of Moses), every whit pointing to that great and last sacrifice; and that great and last sacrifice will be the Son of God, yea, infinite and eternal. 15. And thus he shall bring salvation to all those who shall believe on his name; this being the intent of this last sacrifice, to bring about the bowels of mercy, which overpowereth justice, and bringeth about means unto men that they may have faith unto repentance. 16. And thus mercy can satisfy the demands of justice, and encircles them in the arms of safety, while he that exercises no faith unto repentance is exposed to the whole law of the demands of justice; therefore only unto him that has faith unto repentance is brought about the great and eternal plan of redemption. 2
CV75 Posted February 18, 2020 Posted February 18, 2020 2 hours ago, bluebell said: This is what Bruce C. Hafen said about paying for your own sins: "I once wondered if those who refuse to repent but who then satisfy the law of justice by paying for their own sins are then worthy to enter the celestial kingdom. The answer is no. The entrance requirements for celestial life are simply higher than merely satisfying the law of justices. For that reason, paying for our own sins [our works] will not bear the same fruit as repenting of our sins [receiving the gift of grace offered through the Savior's atonement]. Justice is a law of balance and order and it must be satisfied, either through our payment or His. But if we decline the Savior's invitation to let Him carry our sins, and then satisfy justice by ourselves, we will not yet have experienced the complete rehabilitation that can occur through a combination of divine assistance and genuine repentance. Working together, those forces have the power permanently to change our hearts and our lives. The doctrines of mercy and repentance are rehabilitative, not retributive, in nature. The Savior asks for our repentance not merely to compensate him for paying our debt to justice, but also as a way of inducing us to undergo the process of development that will make our nature divine, giving us the capacity to live the celestial law. The natural man will remain an enemy to God forever--even after paying for his own sins--unless he also "becometh a saint thorugh the Atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child." I understand this to paying for our own sins by voluntarily giving up a degree of glory, which is the seal of rejecting God, which entails giving up the ability to repent beyond that limit (which means an inability to advance between kingdoms).
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