Paying for Our Own Sins

[teddyaware]

20 hours ago, bluebell said:

I don't know if those people have to repent to receive that degree of glory, or if their suffering for their sins makes repentance unnecessary.  But, I don't think paying for their own sins will satisfy the demands of justice.  They still must rely on the Atonement for the glory that they do receive.  And Christ did already pay for their sins when He performed the Atonement.    

So it appears you believe that at some point even those who inherit a Telestial glory (but only after first satisfying the infinite and eternal demands of divine justice by making a sufficient payment for their own sins through personal suffering) will eventually come to possess a genuine faith in Christ sufficient to enable them to receive the blessing of a Telestial inheritance? So after people such as these have paid the full price for their sins, through exquisite and protracted spiritual agony, without ever experiencing even the slightest measure of relief from their torments through the compassion and tender mercies of Christ, what is it that will inspire them to love and have faith in Christ if they’ve never experienced the cleansing and healing of a their guilty consciences, a blessing without measure that can only be obtained through knowing for a surety he has received God’s forgiveness by virtue of the atoning power of Christ.

Think of what Alma the younger said about the maximum hellish spiritual torment he had to endure as a consequence of his guilty conscience, and, by contrast, compare that ultimate misery to the total peace of mind and indescribable joy he received when Christ, through the atonement, forgave him of all sins. It’s important to note that the horrific suffering Alma endured did not expiate his guilt in the slightest, but what it did do is serve to powerfully motivate him to repent and pray with full purpose of heart for divine relief. It’s equally important to understand that Alma realized his sufferings for sin would be of an endless duration unless and until God snatched his soul from the otherwise immovable jaws of hell.

Remember, the Book of Mormon teaches us that the very essence of hell is the suffering that comes from a guilty conscience and obtaining no relief. So in light of all that’s been said, do you still believe sinners are able to satisfy the full demands of divine justice on their own by experiencing intense spiritual suffering over a very long period of time? And do you believe that through intense personal spiritual suffering one can eventually find inner peace and relief from a guilty conscience by virtue of personally satisfying the demands of justice? Or do you believe a guilty conscience can only be cleansed, healed and relieved of suffering through obtaining the blessings of the atoning power of Christ?

 

Edited February 18, 2020 by teddyaware

[bluebell]

9 hours ago, teddyaware said:

So it appears you believe that at some point even those who inherit a Telestial glory (but only after first satisfying the infinite and eternal demands of divine justice by making a sufficient payment for their own sins through personal suffering) will eventually come to possess a genuine faith in Christ sufficient to enable them to receive the blessing of a Telestial inheritance? So after people such as these have paid the full price for their sins, through exquisite and protracted spiritual agony, without ever experiencing even the slightest measure of relief from their torments through the compassion and tender mercies of Christ, what is it that will inspire them to love and have faith in Christ if they’ve never experienced the cleansing and healing of a their guilty consciences, a blessing without measure that can only be obtained through knowing for a surety he has received God’s forgiveness by virtue of the atoning power of Christ.

Think of what Alma the younger said about the maximum hellish spiritual torment he had to endure as a consequence of his guilty conscience, and, by contrast, compare that ultimate misery to the total peace of mind and indescribable joy he received when Christ, through the atonement, forgave him of all sins. It’s important to note that the horrific suffering Alma endured did not expiate his guilt in the slightest, but what it did do is serve to powerfully motivate him to repent and pray with full purpose of heart for divine relief. It’s equally important to understand that Alma realized his sufferings for sin would be of an endless duration unless and until God snatched his soul from the otherwise immovable jaws of hell.

Remember, the Book of Mormon teaches us that the very essence of hell is the suffering that comes from a guilty conscience and obtaining no relief. So in light of all that’s been said, do you still believe sinners are able to satisfy the full demands of divine justice on their own by experiencing intense spiritual suffering over a very long period of time? And do you believe that through intense personal spiritual suffering one can eventually find inner peace and relief from a guilty conscience by virtue of personally satisfying the demands of justice? Or do you believe a guilty conscience can only be cleansed, healed and relieved of suffering through obtaining the blessings of the atoning power of Christ?

 

No, I don't believe the bolded.  D&C 76:81-89, 101, 109-112 seems to teach that such people will never have genuine faith in Christ, but that regardless of that, they do eventually receive a telestial inheritance because of the Atonement of Christ and His mercy.

"And again, we saw the glory of the telestial, which glory is that of the lesser, even as the glory of the stars differs from that of the glory of the moon in the firmament. These are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus. These are they who deny not the Holy Spirit. These are they who are thrust down to hell. These are they who shall not be redeemed from the devil until the last resurrection, until the Lord, even Christ the Lamb, shall have finished his work. These are they who receive not of his fulness in the eternal world, but of the Holy Spirit through the ministration of the terrestrial; And the terrestrial through the ministration of the celestial. And also the telestial receive it of the administering of angels who are appointed to minister for them, or who are appointed to be ministering spirits for them; for they shall be heirs of salvation. And thus we saw, in the heavenly vision, the glory of the telestial, which surpasses all understanding;

"But received not the gospel, neither the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenant.  But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;  And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever; For they shall be judged according to their works, and every man shall receive according to his own works, his own dominion, in the mansions which are prepared; And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end."

[Teancum]

On 2/16/2020 at 9:27 PM, Duncan said:

We were talking about the Atonement earlier in the day and the teacher said that we couldn't pay for our sins and I wonder why not?

It seem to me there is a provision in LDS doctrine to pay for your own sins. See D&C 19.

[Teancum]

18 hours ago, bluebell said:

This is what Bruce C. Hafen said about paying for your own sins:

"I once wondered if those who refuse to repent but who then satisfy the law of justice by paying for their own sins are then worthy to enter the celestial kingdom.  The answer is no.  The entrance requirements for celestial life are simply higher than merely satisfying the law of justices.  For that reason, paying for our own sins [our works] will not bear the same fruit as repenting of our sins [receiving the gift of grace offered through the Savior's atonement].  Justice is a law of balance and order and it must be satisfied, either through our payment or His.  But if we decline the Savior's invitation to let Him carry our sins, and then satisfy justice by ourselves, we will not yet have experienced the complete rehabilitation that can occur through a combination of divine assistance and genuine repentance.  Working together, those forces have the power permanently to change our hearts and our lives.

The doctrines of mercy and repentance are rehabilitative, not retributive, in nature.  The Savior asks for our repentance not merely to compensate him for paying our debt to justice, but also as a way of inducing us to undergo the process of development that will make our nature divine,  giving us the capacity to live the celestial law. The natural man will remain an enemy to God forever--even after paying for his own sins--unless he also "becometh a saint thorugh the Atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child."  

 

Orson F Whitney disagrees:

Joseph Smith
(1805–44)
First President of the Church

“The Prophet Joseph Smith declared—and he never taught a more comforting doctrine—that the eternal sealings of faithful parents and the divine promises made to them for valiant service in the Cause of Truth, would save not only themselves, but likewise their posterity. Though some of the sheep may wander, the eye of the Shepherd is upon them, and sooner or later they will feel the tentacles of Divine Providence reaching out after them and drawing them back to the fold. Either in this life or the life to come, they will return. They will have to pay their debt to justice; they will suffer for their sins; and may tread a thorny path; but if it leads them at last, like the penitent Prodigal, to a loving and forgiving father’s heart and home, the painful experience will not have been in vain. Pray for your careless and disobedient children; hold on to them with your faith. Hope on, trust on, till you see the salvation of God” (Orson F. Whitney, in Conference Report, Apr. 1929, 110).

 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2002/09/hope-for-parents-of-wayward-children?lang=eng

[Stargazer]

On 2/17/2020 at 2:17 PM, teddyaware said:

So does this mean the inheritors of the Telestial Kingdom will obtain that degree of glory by satisfying the demands of divine justice through a process of suffering for their own sins, and for this reason they will not need to receive God’s forgiveness because they have already fully satisfied the demands of divine justice by means of their own personal suffering?

Yep.

All men inherit the resurrection freely through Christ. But those who reject Christ's atonement must suffer for their own sins.  And these are they who inherit the Telestial Kingdom.  This is what the world calls "hell", because it won't be very pleasant.

4 And surely every man must repent or suffer, for I, God, am endless.
15 Therefore I command you to repent — repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore — how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.
16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;
17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;
18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit — and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink

DC 19:4,15-18

Those who do not repent and accept Christ's atonement will have to atone for their own sins, in the same way and in the same degree that Christ suffered. That's clear from the above verses in the D&C.  There are many people who think that Christ's actual suffering was some kind of additive thing, which added up according to how many people didn't repent. Or in other words, that each instance of sin adds up to a quantum of suffering. So if you didn't repent but you committed only one sin, you get, like, a smack. But if you committed a thousand sins you get a thousand smacks. And so Christ got a quintillion smacks for all the sins that people repented of.  But that's not it at all.  If you don't repent you get what Christ experienced, in the same amount and the same degree  And it was extremely "sore", as he said. 

I understand however that some people prefer to believe in the additive suffering. So be it.  But an additive suffering is not infinite.

It doesn't say so in the scriptures, as far as I can determine, but I surmise that this suffering is something that has to be experienced in the body, and only an immortal body can experience it in its fullness. This is because a mortal body would not survive the experience in its fullness, and the suffering would not be complete -- and justice would be robbed. Christ could do it in mortality because his heritage of being partly God made him capable of enduring the suffering of the atonement without dying.  So those who reject Christ have to wait for their resurrection to atone.

I've wondered about the acquisition of any kind of Glory after suffering for one's own sins, and I think that the suffering itself marks the bodies of those who suffer it justly, and disqualifies them for a higher glory. This is why I believe Paul refers to the bodies of those who have been resurrected, not their spirits:

"There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another." (1 Cor 15:40)

In other words, the quality of the bodies of those resurrected to the celestial and terrestrial will be greater than those resurrected to the terrestrial.  What this means in practice isn't hinted at.

 

[bluebell]

55 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Orson F Whitney disagrees:

Joseph Smith
(1805–44)
First President of the Church

“The Prophet Joseph Smith declared—and he never taught a more comforting doctrine—that the eternal sealings of faithful parents and the divine promises made to them for valiant service in the Cause of Truth, would save not only themselves, but likewise their posterity. Though some of the sheep may wander, the eye of the Shepherd is upon them, and sooner or later they will feel the tentacles of Divine Providence reaching out after them and drawing them back to the fold. Either in this life or the life to come, they will return. They will have to pay their debt to justice; they will suffer for their sins; and may tread a thorny path; but if it leads them at last, like the penitent Prodigal, to a loving and forgiving father’s heart and home, the painful experience will not have been in vain. Pray for your careless and disobedient children; hold on to them with your faith. Hope on, trust on, till you see the salvation of God” (Orson F. Whitney, in Conference Report, Apr. 1929, 110).

 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2002/09/hope-for-parents-of-wayward-children?lang=eng

Do you think that Orson Whitney thought that JS didn't agree with the verses in the D&C?  

[stemelbow]

Everyone on this planet seeks to move forward, do better, learn from mistakes.  In essence, everyone repents--ok we may have some exceptions with psychopaths and such but for the most part, we all do.  So what are we paying for exactly?  If God in the end, tells us, we didn't say sorry enough, or didn't actually invoke the name Jesus in our efforts, then that means we have to suffer for the mistakes in our lives? 

"Well I see you tried to be nice and help your neighbor, but when you said a swear word and didn't repent, well that means you have to suffer and in the end won't be allowed to get really saved.  You'll just be sadly saved.  Oh yeah, and I never knew you anyway."  

[JAHS]

On 2/16/2020 at 6:27 PM, Duncan said:

On 2/16/2020 at 5:34 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

Requires a perfect, sinless sacrifice.  Are you thinking of purgatory in which to be purged of your sins?

We were talking about the Atonement earlier in the day and the teacher said that we couldn't pay for our sins and I wonder why not?

There is of course the sin of murder (D&C 42:18) which does require us to pay for in some sense in that we must suffer in Hell for a time before we can be saved, but will not receive exaltation.

In his The Brilliant Morning of Forgiveness: Elder Boyd K. Packer (October 1995) said:
"Alma bluntly told his wayward son that repentance could not come unto men except there were a punishment. The punishment may, for the most part, consist of the torment we inflict upon ourselves. It may be the loss of privilege or progress."
A foot note to Elder Packer's printed conference address says: "Forgiveness will come eventually to all repentant souls who have not committed the unpardonable sin (Blasphemy against the Holy Ghost; see Matt. 12:31). Forgiveness does not, however, necessarily assure exaltation, as is the case with David."
See D&C 132:38-39:
"... and in none of these things did he sin against me save in the case of Uriah and his wife; and, therefore he hath fallen from his exaltation, and received his portion; and he shall not inherit them out of the world, for I gave them to another, saith the Lord".

According to Joseph Smith, David will not be forgiven unless he goes through hell first, but he will not be left there:
"A murderer, for instance, one that sheds innocent blood, cannot have forgiveness. David sought forgiveness at the hand of God carefully with tears, for the murder of Uriah; but he could only get it through hell: he got a promise that his soul should not be left in hell.
Although David was a king, he never did obtain the spirit and power of Elijah and the fullness of the Priesthood; and the Priesthood that he received, and the throne and kingdom of David is to be taken from him and given to another by the name of David in the last days, raised up out of his lineage."
(See Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 339:) (See also Ps. 16:10; Acts 2:25-27;)

 

[Teancum]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Do you think that Orson Whitney thought that JS didn't agree with the verses in the D&C?  

I don't know.

[bluebell]

Just now, Teancum said:

I don't know.

It doesn't make sense to me to suggest that JS didn't believe in the validity of a section of scripture that he believed he received as revelation from God.  From that perspective, I think it's more likely that you are misunderstanding what Orson says JS taught.

I don't see anything in Orson's quote that disagrees with Hafen's quote but perhaps you could quote the parts that you see as being in disagreement.  Hafen says that no one can receive salvation without becoming "a saint through the Atonement of Jesus Christ."  Orson states that those wayward children who return will do so as they are lead "like the penitent Prodigal, to a loving and forgiving father’s heart and home."  

Both Hafen and Orson (JS) teach that no one will be saved without repentance and turning to God.  

[Teancum]

8 minutes ago, bluebell said:

It doesn't make sense to me to suggest that JS didn't believe in the validity of a section of scripture that he believed he received as revelation from God.  From that perspective, I think it's more likely that you are misunderstanding what Orson says JS taught.

I don't see anything in Orson's quote that disagrees with Hafen's quote but perhaps you could quote the parts that you see as being in disagreement.  Hafen says that no one can receive salvation without becoming "a saint through the Atonement of Jesus Christ."  Orson states that those wayward children who return will do so as they are lead "like the penitent Prodigal, to a loving and forgiving father’s heart and home."  

Both Hafen and Orson (JS) teach that no one will be saved without repentance and turning to God.  

My understanding of the Whitney quote is that the sealing power will bring unrepentant (in this life) children into the celestial kingdom once they have paid the price for their sins (See D&C 19).Perhaps Whitney's p[point is that suffering to some extent for their sins will still bring them to Christ. I read Hafen to say that it had to be in this life where faith in the atonement is exercised and that there might be some glory for the unrepentant who turns to Christ in the next life but not a celestial glory.

[bluebell]

Just now, Teancum said:

My understanding of the Whitney quote is that the sealing power will bring unrepentant (in this life) children into the celestial kingdom once they have paid the price for their sins (See D&C 19).Perhaps Whitney's p[point is that suffering to some extent for their sins will still bring them to Christ. I read Hafen to say that it had to be in this life where faith in the atonement is exercised and that there might be some glory for the unrepentant who turns to Christ in the next life but not a celestial glory.

Oh I see.  I do not read Hafen as saying anything about it having to be in this life.

[Teancum]

2 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Oh I see.  I do not read Hafen as saying anything about it having to be in this life.

I read it again. I think what he is saying is those who pay for their own sins cannot be in the celestial kingdom. Only those who accept Christ's Atonement will be. And correct he did not distinguish between this life or the next. 

[Amulek]

2 hours ago, Stargazer said:

I understand however that some people prefer to believe in the additive suffering. So be it.  But an additive suffering is not infinite.

I suspect the line of thinking is that if only a finite number of sins were committed, then there must be a finite amount of punishment associated with those sins which could conceivably be endured.

And I think there might be some validity to that if we were, in fact, finite beings. But we aren't.

Like our Father and Savior, we are infinite / eternal beings, so it stands to reason that only an infinite atonement would be capable of reconciling an infinite being against the demands of justice.

 

Edited February 18, 2020 by Amulek
spelling

[CV75]

6 minutes ago, Amulek said:

I suspect the line of thinking is that if only a finite number of sins were committed, then there must be a finite amount of punishment associated with those sins which could conceivably be endured.

And I think there might be some validity to that if we were, in fact, finite beings. But we aren't.

Like our Father and Savior, we are infinite / eternal beings, so it stands to reason that only and infinite atonement would be capable of reconciling an infinite being against the demands of justice.

To paraphrase, "it is by wrath that we are damned, after all we can do." Such is life without faith in Christ and repentance.

[Robert F. Smith]

6 hours ago, JAHS said:

..........................................

Although David was a king, he never did obtain the spirit and power of Elijah and the fullness of the Priesthood; and the Priesthood that he received, and the throne and kingdom of David is to be taken from him and given to another by the name of David in the last days, raised up out of his lineage."
(See Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 339:) (See also Ps. 16:10; Acts 2:25-27;)

As you know, Jesus was of the lineage of David.  A favorite name used by Jewish mothers is David.  There are plenty of candidates.

[teddyaware]

On 2/18/2020 at 11:56 AM, Stargazer said:

Yep.

All men inherit the resurrection freely through Christ. But those who reject Christ's atonement must suffer for their own sins.  And these are they who inherit the Telestial Kingdom.  This is what the world calls "hell", because it won't be very pleasant.

4 And surely every man must repent or suffer, for I, God, am endless.
15 Therefore I command you to repent — repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore — how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.
16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;
17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;
18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit — and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink

DC 19:4,15-18

Those who do not repent and accept Christ's atonement will have to atone for their own sins, in the same way and in the same degree that Christ suffered. That's clear from the above verses in the D&C.  There are many people who think that Christ's actual suffering was some kind of additive thing, which added up according to how many people didn't repent. Or in other words, that each instance of sin adds up to a quantum of suffering. So if you didn't repent but you committed only one sin, you get, like, a smack. But if you committed a thousand sins you get a thousand smacks. And so Christ got a quintillion smacks for all the sins that people repented of.  But that's not it at all.  If you don't repent you get what Christ experienced, in the same amount and the same degree  And it was extremely "sore", as he said. 

I understand however that some people prefer to believe in the additive suffering. So be it.  But an additive suffering is not infinite.

It doesn't say so in the scriptures, as far as I can determine, but I surmise that this suffering is something that has to be experienced in the body, and only an immortal body can experience it in its fullness. This is because a mortal body would not survive the experience in its fullness, and the suffering would not be complete -- and justice would be robbed. Christ could do it in mortality because his heritage of being partly God made him capable of enduring the suffering of the atonement without dying.  So those who reject Christ have to wait for their resurrection to atone.

I've wondered about the acquisition of any kind of Glory after suffering for one's own sins, and I think that the suffering itself marks the bodies of those who suffer it justly, and disqualifies them for a higher glory. This is why I believe Paul refers to the bodies of those who have been resurrected, not their spirits:

"There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another." (1 Cor 15:40)

In other words, the quality of the bodies of those resurrected to the celestial and terrestrial will be greater than those resurrected to the terrestrial.  What this means in practice isn't hinted at.

 

How can mere fallen mortals — very wicked ones at that — who are “exposed to the whole law of the demands of justice” (Alma 34) atone for their own sins when the scriptures make it abundantly clear that only an infinite and eternal sacrifice of the sinless Son of God (not a sacrifice of fallen, mortal men) can atone for sin, for he is the only one who possesses the infinite and eternal power required to satisfy the demands of justice of the whole law? There is a very big difference between making an imperfect partial payment for one’s sins, that leads to the creation of a broken heart and a contrite spirit, and completely satisfying the exceedingly strict and unalterable infinite and eternal demands of the whole law of divine justice.

Edited February 19, 2020 by teddyaware

[Stargazer]

1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

How can mere fallen mortals — very wicked ones at that — who are “exposed to the whole law of the demands of justice” (Alma 34) atone for their own sins when the scriptures make it abundantly clear that only an infinite and eternal sacrifice of the sinless Son of God (not a sacrifice of fallen, mortal men) can atone for sin, for he is the only one who possesses the infinite and eternal power required to satisfy the demands of justice of the whole law?

I'm not sure I understand you here. Are you saying that Christ's atonement covers the sins even of those who do not repent?  

As I understand it, and as the scriptures I have quoted confirm, there are two ways to atone -- the best way to have faith in Christ, repent, and be baptised with water and the Holy Ghost, whereupon you qualify for Christ's mercy, which He wrought through his atonement in the Garden of Gethsemane and the cross. In that case, Christ has suffered so that you do not need to.  The other way is to reject Christ, whereupon you are "exposed to the whole law of the demands of justice" and so must suffer as Christ suffered.  This former places you "at one" with Justice through Christ's blood, and you are saved. And being saved, you inherit at least the Terrestrial Kingdom.  The latter also places  you "at one" with Justice -- it fulfills Justice's demands in other words -- but does not save you.  And being not saved, you inherit the Telestial Kingdom. 

In a sense there are two atonements. Christ's atonement satisfies Justice, but also sanctifies, and potentially exalts; the other merely satisfies Justice.  

 

1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

There is a very big difference between making an imperfect partial payment for one’s sins, that leads to the creation of a broken heart and a contrite spirit, and completely satisfying the exceedingly strict and unalterable infinite and eternal demands of the whole law of divine justice.

What we are talking about here is not the process leading up to the sinner realizing his guilt, having a broken heart and contrite spirit. We, or at least I, am talking about what happens when the sinner has run out of chances to repent, has refused to do so, and faces the judgement alone, without Christ.  If at that time you are in that state, when you have to suffer for your own sins it will be full payment.  "How hard to bear you know not," said the Master. There is no "imperfect partial payment" for one's sins.  There is only full payment: Christ pays, or you pay.  

[teddyaware]

25 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

I'm not sure I understand you here. Are you saying that Christ's atonement covers the sins even of those who do not repent?  

As I understand it, and as the scriptures I have quoted confirm, there are two ways to atone -- the best way to have faith in Christ, repent, and be baptised with water and the Holy Ghost, whereupon you qualify for Christ's mercy, which He wrought through his atonement in the Garden of Gethsemane and the cross. In that case, Christ has suffered so that you do not need to.  The other way is to reject Christ, whereupon you are "exposed to the whole law of the demands of justice" and so must suffer as Christ suffered.  This former places you "at one" with Justice through Christ's blood, and you are saved. And being saved, you inherit at least the Terrestrial Kingdom.  The latter also places  you "at one" with Justice -- it fulfills Justice's demands in other words -- but does not save you.  And being not saved, you inherit the Telestial Kingdom. 

In a sense there are two atonements. Christ's atonement satisfies Justice, but also sanctifies, and potentially exalts; the other merely satisfies Justice.  

 

What we are talking about here is not the process leading up to the sinner realizing his guilt, having a broken heart and contrite spirit. We, or at least I, am talking about what happens when the sinner has run out of chances to repent, has refused to do so, and faces the judgement alone, without Christ.  If at that time you are in that state, when you have to suffer for your own sins it will be full payment.  "How hard to bear you know not," said the Master. There is no "imperfect partial payment" for one's sins.  There is only full payment: Christ pays, or you pay.  

 I’m quite surprised to see a very knowledgeable and experienced member of the Church say that the inheritors of the telestial kingdom are not saved, when the scriptures repeatedly testify otherwise.

40 And this is the gospel, the glad tidings which the voice out of the heavens bore record unto us—

41 That he came into the world, even Jesus, to be crucified for the world, and to bear the sins of the world, and to sanctify the world, and to cleanse it from all unrighteousness;

42 That through him all might be saved whom the Father had put into his power and made by him;

43 Who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him.

44 Wherefore, he saves all except them (the sons of perdition) —they shall go away into everlasting punishment, which is endless punishment, which is eternal punishment, to reign with the devil and his angels in eternity, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched, which is their torment. (D&C 76)

A question: Why do you suppose it is that the sons of perdition suffer for their sins forever and ever, and yet it’s never enough suffering to atone for their own personal sins?

[Stargazer]

10 hours ago, teddyaware said:

 I’m quite surprised to see a very knowledgeable and experienced member of the Church say that the inheritors of the telestial kingdom are not saved, when the scriptures repeatedly testify otherwise.

40 And this is the gospel, the glad tidings which the voice out of the heavens bore record unto us—

41 That he came into the world, even Jesus, to be crucified for the world, and to bear the sins of the world, and to sanctify the world, and to cleanse it from all unrighteousness;

42 That through him all might be saved whom the Father had put into his power and made by him;

43 Who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him.

44 Wherefore, he saves all except them (the sons of perdition) —they shall go away into everlasting punishment, which is endless punishment, which is eternal punishment, to reign with the devil and his angels in eternity, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched, which is their torment. (D&C 76)

Fair enough. It all depends on what is meant by "saved".  The word's meaning is not absolute.  It does depend upon context and connotation, or how it is being used.  When Christ saves someone, one might ask "What is this person being saved from in this instance?"  In the case of all mankind, including those destined to be Sons of Perdition, all of them without exception are saved from physical death, because all will be resurrected.  And all of them keep their bodies, which are now immortal, but the SOP are not saved to any degree of glory, but go away to outer darkness, which is called the "second death". But first they must suffer what Christ suffered in order to pay for their own sins  Those who are unrepentant, but who are not SOP, must also suffer the full measure of justice, which is to suffer what Christ suffered, but having done so they are then saved to the lowest degree of glory, the Telestial Kingdom. Those who are repentant are saved in the sense that their punishment is swallowed up in Christ's suffering -- or, in other words, Christ suffered what they would have had to suffer, and since he had no sin, his suffering atones for all those whom Christ wills to save -- and he chooses to save only those who repent. The sense of "save" here is "saving from suffering", and they are saved to a degree of glory, either Terrestrial or Celestial Kingdom.

And the sense of the word "save" that I was using was this: saved from suffering the full measure of punishment for one's sins.  In which sense the unrepentant are not saved.

Back to something you wrote that I was wondering about. When you wrote:

"How can mere fallen mortals — very wicked ones at that — who are “exposed to the whole law of the demands of justice” (Alma 34) atone for their own sins when the scriptures make it abundantly clear that only an infinite and eternal sacrifice of the sinless Son of God (not a sacrifice of fallen, mortal men) can atone for sin, for he is the only one who possesses the infinite and eternal power required to satisfy the demands of justice of the whole law?"

It seemed to me that you were suggesting that Christ's atonement (i.e. suffering) atoned for the sins that even the unrepentant had committed.  Which I was quite frankly surprised to hear from another experienced and knowledgeable member of the church.

Perhaps you didn't mean that, and like all of us do from time to time, you had expressed yourself inaccurately, or, I had misunderstood you?

10 hours ago, teddyaware said:

A question: Why do you suppose it is that the sons of perdition suffer for their sins forever and ever, and yet it’s never enough suffering to atone for their own personal sins?

Because it isn't just their sins they are suffering from.  The SOP are resurrected and then like any other unrepentant person they must suffer "even as I", and then, having paid for their sins, instead of being saved in the Telestial kingdom, they are cast out into outer darkness, and then must endure THAT "forever and ever."  It is an atonement that does not lead to glory, but ignominy. 

 

[stemelbow]

On 2/18/2020 at 11:51 AM, Teancum said:

I read it again. I think what he is saying is those who pay for their own sins cannot be in the celestial kingdom. Only those who accept Christ's Atonement will be. And correct he did not distinguish between this life or the next. 

This is a muddied issue for the Church.  Early on Joseph used to think that anyone who died without the law, without knowing Jesus could not be exalted with God.  He was supposedly surprised when he learned his brother Alvin, who died before the Church was restored, was sitting in Celestial heaven, as he dreamed and saw name tags on Adam and Abraham.  Jesus had to tell Him, as he sat in a stupor of thought, flummoxed at the possibility that his brother could have been exalted:

 

Quote

 

All who have died ^bwithout a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be ^cheirs of the celestial kingdom of God;

8 Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who ^awould have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;

 

 

Surprising to Joseph since earlier Joseph told of a revelation he had that said the opposite:  

Quote

Behold, these are they who died ^awithout ^blaw;

73 And also they who are the ^aspirits of men kept in ^bprison, whom the Son visited, and ^cpreached the ^dgospel unto them, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh;

74 Who ^areceived not the ^btestimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it.

75 These are they who are ^ahonorable men of the earth, who were ^bblinded by the craftiness of men.

76 These are they who receive of his glory, but not of his fulness.

77 These are they who receive of the ^apresence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father.

78 Wherefore, they are ^abodies terrestrial, and not bodies celestial, and differ in glory as the moon differs from the sun.

79 These are they who are not ^avaliant in the ^btestimony of Jesus; wherefore, they obtain not the crown over the kingdom of our God.

So either Hafen is summarizing the revelation that Jesus later contradicted (for some reason the almighty decided to tell Joseph one thing, in section 76, and then later decided to say that was not true), or he is misunderstanding.  Misunderstanding is quite likely since it's really a matter of Jesus contradicting himself--meaning a sincere believer can accept either view at this point.  

[teddyaware]

On 2/20/2020 at 8:46 AM, stemelbow said:

This is a muddied issue for the Church.  Early on Joseph used to think that anyone who died without the law, without knowing Jesus could not be exalted with God.  He was supposedly surprised when he learned his brother Alvin, who died before the Church was restored, was sitting in Celestial heaven, as he dreamed and saw name tags on Adam and Abraham.  Jesus had to tell Him, as he sat in a stupor of thought, flummoxed at the possibility that his brother could have been exalted:

 

 

Surprising to Joseph since earlier Joseph told of a revelation he had that said the opposite:  

So either Hafen is summarizing the revelation that Jesus later contradicted (for some reason the almighty decided to tell Joseph one thing, in section 76, and then later decided to say that was not true), or he is misunderstanding.  Misunderstanding is quite likely since it's really a matter of Jesus contradicting himself--meaning a sincere believer can accept either view at this point.  

Over the years, I’ve observed that Doctrine and Covenants 76: 71-79 is almost universally misunderstood by the members of the Church, and with the above post you demonstrate you are one of them. But please understand that I’m not faulting you or any other member for misunderstanding these verses because their confusing sequential layout renders them easily misunderstood. The bottom line teaching that these verses are meant to convey is that those who died without the opportunity to receive the gospel in the flesh but accept it in the spirit world will not receive a celestial glory UNLESS they are fully valiant in their testimonies of Jesus Christ. The following sequential combing of three of the verses present the intended meaning with much greater clarity.

“Behold, these are they who died without law, who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh but afterwards received it, who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus; wherefore, they obtain not the crown over the kingdom of our God.”

So in Doctrine and Covenants 76 the prophet Joseph Smith teaches us that those who die without the gospel law who inherit the Terrestrial Kingdom are relegated to that glory not because they just happened to be unfortunate enough to die before having the opportunity to receive the gospel while in the flesh, but because the were not fully valiant in the testimony of Jesus after accepting the gospel in the world of departed spirits. A logical corollary that follows is that there are also going to be those who died without the law who will inherit the celestial kingdom because they ARE valiant in the testimony of Jesus.

 

 

 

Edited February 23, 2020 by teddyaware